the commando leader for his area, that is, for the area of the Special Commando 10-A he was represented by the Commando Leader 10-A, etc. Ohlendorf would have made had he been there? Ohlendorf's representative.
Q And did he therefore have any cause to apply to the Group Staff? deputy would always have had to be present at the staff, and these things did not even happen; these inquiries didn't occur.
Q And why did they not happen, witness? guously; the additional orders from the army were also well known; the executive directives had been regulated, so it can thus be explained that no inquiries had to be made to the Group Staff. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q How many persons were there in the Group Staff? enlisted men -- about thirty or thirty-five men, including guard personnel, signal personnel, kitchen personnel, etc. a group of soldiers and officers together, that some one must command. You know that?
Q Very well. Let us take the illustration of a battalion with four companies; the companies are in the field -- A, B, C, D. The company commander of Company C wants to know what A, B and D are doing because he is confronted with a situation whereby it is important that he know what his brother commanders are doing so that he can coordinate his efforts with their's. Now, he can't go around to see the captains of A, B and D; so, the captain of Company C goes to Battalion Headquarters the major isn't there; the battalion major, the battalion commanding officer isn't there.
He would be the person he would naturally turn to, but he isn't there. Now witness, you know that there would be soma one in the battalion headquarters who would take this company commander and talk over the situation with him.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Q. That would have been necessary, yes. Now, I just want to know who would be that person at the Croup Staff Headquarters when Ohlendorf isn't there, You have thirty-five people there; you have eight officers, and a commando leader comes or sends a courier and he wants to coordinate his efforts with the efforts of all the other leaders. Now, you cannot say, witness, that every situation had been anticipated; that no one would need to make any inquiries, because everything had already been worked out before. In war any situation can develop. When a commando leader is confronted with the necessity of making a decision, and he can't make the decision unless he has information, a little bit of advice, and he goes to the Staff Headquarters and Ohlendorf is not there, with whom would he speak?
A. Your Honor, during my presence he would have spoken with me of course, but may I say in connection that this comparison between the battalion and the Einsatzgruppen is incorrect insofar as a battalion could never have been commanded without a battalion commander; the commander was necessary there every day....
Q. Well, but you have the battalion commander with Ohlendorf -- to use the illustration, use his as the battalion commander in the illustration which I have given.
A. Yes.
Q. Yes, and then the battalion commander, the major isn't there; the major is killed in the illustration I have given. Certainly some one takes over.
A. Then somebody would have been designated to take over this past, Your Honor. And if I may clarify this, I . would not have any doubt that in our case of the Einsatzgruppenif Ohlendorf had been killed, the senior commando leader would have taken over his place. That would have been ordered by radio from Berlin on the same day.
Q. Yes, but before this happens, Ohlendorf isn't there and it isn't known whether he is missing because of casualty or if he is away on an important mission. He is just not there. Certainly if a successor is appointed immediately there is no question. We are in the twilight zone where we don't know what happened to Ohlendorf; he is not there. Somebody has to make a decision. You are in war, and a man arrives at Staff Headquarters; Who does he talk to? He talks to you.
A. Yes, but I could, never have made the decision if it hadn't concerned my sphere.
Q. In other words the commando leader comes to you and he says: The partisans are attacking on a one hundred mile front. I want to know what these other three commando leaders are doing. How shall I meet the situation? would you say we will see; I am going to write you a nice report on this; is that what you would do? You wouldn't give him a report.
A. No case -
Q. (Interposing) Well, of course you would talk over the situation with him; advise him, give him counsel, call for reinforcements. You would do something.
A. In thiscase I would have done something immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Why of course you would have done something. That is all I wanted to know.
Proceed, Dr. Gawlik. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, what would you have done; what could you have done in this case?
A. In this case which Your Honor has just mentioned, that is if our office had been threatened by partisans, I as the senior officer, I would have done everything in order to fight these partisans.
Q. In what way?
A. In the way I just described.
Q. What units?
A. The units of the staff which would have been attacked in this case. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. No, that isn't what I said, I wasn't speaking of the staff headquarters being attacked. Any one would know what to do if your own headquarters was attacked. I am speaking of this commando leader who comes in and gives a story of trouble in the field, Didn't you understand my question to be that?
A. Your Honor, that the commando leader comes with a message that the area had been threatened by partisans?
Q. Yes, he must know just what all the other commando leaders are doing; he must coordinate his efforts with their's; and he comes to you for a little bit of counsel; and you in a situation like that certainly you would immediately take over and talk with him and issue whatever orders the situation required.
A. Your Honor, in this example the commander would have immediately applied to the army, and the army had in such a case every power of order in the occupied area.
Q. Now, witness, what would the army have done. The army would have to find out what companies A, B and D were doing in the illustration which I have given. They would immediately then contact the battalion headquarters to find out what the situation was. The army wouldn't act blindly. So, it would come back to you again.
A. Your Honor, there was a liaison officer with the army from the Einsatzgruppen who consulted with the chief of staff and the G-2 and informed them about the garrison activity of the commando, that is to say, the army had very close connections.
Q. Well, the liaison officer isn't there, and this commando leader of Company C is demanding immediate action. He can't wait until you find the liaison officer and he can't wait until you find these reports. He wants immediate action. In that situation you would have to take over, wouldn't you?
A. Your Honor, practically speaking, the commander would have got in touch with his neighboring commando leaders and they would have made the decision themselves.
Q. Without any coordination from headquarters?
A. Of course the staff would have been informed about any changes in the situation, but they would never have required a decision.
Q. They would have made a decision?
A. No, Your Honor, due to the fact that it never happened.
Q. All right, suppose you have four commando leaders and they don't agree. Two say we will attack from the east, and two say we will attack from the west. Now, who makes the decision? Do they go off and attack in all directions without any direction, without any control?
A. Your Honor, we did not have these missions at all, but if it is a matter of military operations; then Wehrmacht officers were always used for this by the army. I cannot even compare this.
Q. You were being attacked; the army is one hundred miles away, and you do nothing; you send out reports and sit there; you send out a report and sit there -- is that what you want me to believe?
A. No, Your Honor.
Q. You would do something in the meantime, would't you?
A. your Honor, but the army was in our garrison; it never happened that way; we were there in order to be in their vicinity.
Q. You were always with A.O.H.?
A. The staff was always in the vicinity or in the town itself where the army headquarters was, anyway, the whole time in Russia.
Q. Well then, you really didn't have much use for a headquarters because the army controlled everything.
A. Your Honor, for all the examples which you have listed, the army had all the complete power of command.
Q. Well then, there wasn't much use for Ohlendorf to be there because the army had control; the army did everything; Ohlendorf was merely a figure-head.
A. In these examples which Your Honor has mentioned, the army gave the orders, but we had more missions.
Q. Well, all right. Take the missions which you did have. Ohlendorf was the man who gave the orders; is that right?
A. Ohlendorf, yes.
Q. All right; Ohlendorf isn't there; now who does it?
A. In that case orders would be given by myself in the sphere in which I worked. Furthermore, the commander was the deputy in Ohlendorf's absence, Therefore, in spheres which were not my own, that is for the executive missions, I could not give any orders and did not give them.
Q. So that if a commando leader arrived and said that we are confronted with a certain situation in the field, whether it be partisans, whether it be Jews, security, or counter-intelligence, all you could do would be to sit down and write a report on economics.
A. No, I was able to do more.
Q. What did you do besides sitting down and writing a beautiful, fat report on economics?
What did you do?
A. Myself you mean?
Q. Yes, in this situation I gave. Ohlendorf isn't there and a commando leader comes in and wants some help in the field to which he is assigned, whether it be partisan, Jews, Gypsies or security; no matter what.
A. Your Honor, I could not have made a decision and I did not, but, if such a decision had been necessary -- but it was not necessary, because all orders were known -- if a decision had been necessary,
Q. Well, I have said, you cannot contact Ohlendorf. Ohlendorf is away somewhere. Now who would make the decision?
A. I could not have made it. I, -
Q. And then when Ohlendorf would return, you would say to him, "Herr Ohlendorff, a commando leader came here demanding that I make a decision. A very serious problem arose in the field. He had to know what the other kommando leaders were doing, and I just couldn't help him. All I did was sit down and write a nice report for him on economics." Is that what you would have told Ohlendorf?
A. No, I would not have said that to him. I would have told him that the kommando leader had looked at the reports and the directives which the other kommando leaders had made and he depended on those.
THE PRESIDENT: Thr Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. RIEDIGER: Riediger for the defendant, Haensch. Your Honor, may I ask that the defendant, Haensch be excused from this afternoon's session in order to prepare his defense, and also to direct that he be brought to Room 57.
PRESIDENT: The defendant, Haensch, will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon and the marshal is directed to see to it that the defendant, Haensch, "will be in Room 57 this afternoon so that he nay confer with his attorney.
DR. ROESSEL: Roessel for the defendant, Ott. I ask that the defendant, Ott, be excused from tomorrow's session in order to prepare the defense.
PRESIDENT: The defendant, Ott, will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow so that me may prepare his defense with his counsel.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, as a representative for Dr. Aschenauer, I ask that the defendant, Ohlendorf, be excused from tomorrow's session in order to prepare the documents.
PRESIDENT: The defendant will be excused from the session tomorrow. You may proceed.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, after the question which Your Honor put to the witness, I have some questions of my own to put to the witness, and may I ask that the witness be permitted to rise and point out on the map where the group staff was and where the commandos were?
PRESIDENT: By all means.
THE WITNESS: The group staff was at that time in Simferopol in the Crimea. The Commando 11B was at the same place and had several of its subcommandos south and west of Simferopol. The Commando 103 was in Feodosia. That is 150 kilometers from Simferopol.
The commando 11A was southwest of Simferopol in the Jaila Mountains, for some time in Bachtschissaraij and in Kokoai. I estimate the distance as far as I remember at more than 100 kilometers. The Commando 10A was in Taganrog, had some subcommandos in Mariupol and as I estimate it, about six to seven hundred kilometers. The Commando 12 was north of the Commando 10A, that is, in the area north of Malitopol-Mariupol. The distance was more than 700 kilometers from Simferopol.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Now, I have the following question. If the commando leader at Taganrok needed an immediate decision and he would have come to the group staff, how long would it have taken him?
A. With the best possible conditions, that is, with good driving weather, it would have taken him about two days, but on our trip we often needed more than one week in order to reach that place, for the roads which led there were usually field paths. Usually we got stuck one or two days.
Q. And to whom would the commando leader in Taganrok have turned if he needed an immediate decision?
A. If he could not make it himself, he could only turn to his army corps which was in his area, in his garrison. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What were the communication facilities between that point and the staff headquarters?
A. Outside of the courier service there were radio communications.
Q. Well, it wouldn't take a radio communication two days to get to staff headquarters, would it?
A. No, No. It would not have taken that long.
Q. It wouldn't have taken practically any time, it would have been almost instantaneous, would it not?
A. Yes. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. And if such a radio message had come, the commando leader in Taganrok would have radioed you, "I need an immediate decision in such and such question", Ohlendorf was not te to reached, what would you have answered him then?
A. I could only have said to him, "You are the representative of Ohlendorf in this area, you must decide by yourself", Of course, I would have given him information if it were possible, and I would have given him good advice if that would have been necessary, but he only could make the decision.
Q. And if all four commando leaders had come together to the group staff and a decision would have had to be made and those four commando leaders could not have agreed, Ohlendorf was not to be reached, who would then have made the decision?
A. Only the senior commando leader could make such decision especially since it was known to air commando leaders that Office I had formally designated him as the deputy.
Q. Who was that?
A. That was Standartenfuehrer Seetzen, the commando leader of 10A. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What is his name, I didn't catch it, please?
A. The name is Seetzen, S-E-E-T-Z-E-N. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Please look at Document Book IIID, page 69 of the German, page 39 of the English text. This is Document Exhibit 116, Document NOKW 628, on page 71 of the German text under Number 1 it is listed that it is said that the Crimea has been freed of Jews.
This is the second page of the original, your Honor, page 48 of the English text. Did you give any orders to carry out this measure?
A. No. This could only have been done on the basis of the given Fuehrerorder.
Q. Did you participate in these measures in any way?
A. No.
Q. On the basis of which orders were these measures carried out?
A. On the basis of the order given in Pretsch to the Einsatzgruppen chiefs and to the commando leaders.
Q. Could you have prevented the execution of this order?
A. I had no possibility to do that. I did not have the authority to prevent the order of the chief of state in any form from being carried out. I did not have the necessary rank nor the position.
Q. Did you order the shootings of partisans and their accomplices and terror groups?
A. No. I did not. This was not possible because I heard of these facts, rather I was informed about them through the reports of the commandos, that is to say, I only heard about them after the events had happened; therefore, I cannot say who was the individual who carried out these executions.
Q. In this report, the shooting of the Red Army man, Tor, is mentioned and of other people. Have you ordered this shooting?
A. The same thing is true here, what I have said before. I heard of this fact afterwards through a report, and the orders for this can only be traced back to the orders of the 11th army which were posted everywhere.
Q. Furthermore, this report mentions the execution of the NKVD agent, Kotschkelli as well as the execution of other people mentioned on page 72.
Q. Did you order these executions?
A. For all these cases the same is true, as I have said before. I heard about them afterwards through the reports, and I did not give such orders.
Q. On page 73 of the German text the hanging of communists in mentioned especially. This was emphasized especially by the prosecution. What is your comment on this?
A. On page 5 of the original there is a mistake, which changes the sense.
DR. GAWLIK: This is page 42 of the English document book, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: May I repeat that on this page 5 of the original, this is on page 43 of the English, there is a mistake which distorts the sense completely. In the middle of the page behind the word "hanged" there is a colon, and the persons who are listed here as having been hanged are the persons who were listed afterwards. When comparing this with the photostat, that is, with the original, it can be determined that behind the word "hanged" there is no colon but a period, and that the following sentence is omitted. I quote, "Furthermore, the following were arrested:" end of quote. That is, the people who are listed here as having been hanged, In reality.........
PRESIDENT: We don't seem to locate that, Dr. Gawlik, we don't seem to locate that in our copy. Do you have it, Mr. Walton?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
DR. WALTON; Well, I am having the same difficulty as the court. I can't locate it.
DR. GAWLIK: It is on page 42 of the English transcript in the center.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then it is page 5 of the original, as you told us?
DR. GAWLIK: I beg your pardon, page 4 of the original, and I see that the English document book is correctly translated. In the German document book the words "further were apprehended" are missing.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that has made it clear.
THE WITNESS: The hangings then refers to the chief of the NKVD, to the saboteur, and to two partisan leaders who are mentioned before this sentence, but even as far as these hangings are concerned, I had nothing to do as far as giving orders and the carrying out are concerned, but these were announced to me through these reports. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. On the basis of which orders were these measures carried out?
A. On the basis of orders given by the 11th army, or as far as was necessary on the basis of the Fuehrerorder.
Q. Who passed these orders on to the Einsatzkommandos?
A. The Fuehrerorder was known to the Einsatzkommandos and the orders of the 11th Army were posted everywhere, as I have said.
Q. On page 80 of the German text, this is page 8 of the original, the last page, mention is made of the planned further assignment of the subcommandos. This is on page 46 of the English. Did you order this assignment?
A. The order for the assignment of the commandos did not belong to my sphere. Here the commando 11A states that the main commando had been transferred from Bachtschissaraij to Kokosi, The message from this commando was received by me and incorporated into the report.
That is all that I had to do with the transfer of this commando.
Q. Now, I come to another point. Did you make any inspection trips within the area of Einsatzgruppe D?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your job and your mission in these inspection trips?
A. I had to deal with the SD reports, and I had the mission to speak to the Number 3 expert of the commando to give him directives, to make inspections with him, and visit his agencies in the army corps or divisions and, of course, I spoke to the commando leader, too.
Q. Did you make the inspection trips by yourself?
A. Most of the trips I made with the chief of the Einsatzgruppe, but some I made by myself.
Q. Was your job and your activity different in those trips in which you made alone from those activities during the inspection trips which you made with Ohlendorf?
A. No. There was no difference, During the trips with Ohlendorf I used the possibility his vehicle for these large distances and with the short amount of gasoline which we had, the scarce amount of gasoline which we had, this is why I used this possibility of getting transportation, but my mission had nothing to do with this.
Q. During your inspection trips did you ever attend any executions which were carried out on the basis of the Fuehrerorder?
A. No.
Q. From Document Book IIID, page 61 of the German, page 34 of the English, I submit to you Exhibit 158, Document 2859. This is your affidavit of the first of April 1947; under Number 3 in this affidavit, page 2 of the original, you have made statements about inspection trips, and your attendance during two executions.
What is your comment on this?
A. These are not executions of people on the basis of the Fuehrerorder but people who had committed violations against martial law, and they were executed for this reason. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did you know that before you went to the execution?
A. No, Your Honor, I did not knew that.
Q. When did you find out the purpose of the exeuction?
A. I learned it at the place by conversing with the commando leader and the Einsatzgruppe leader.
Q. Here you refer to, "I became a witness to these executions." How many exeuctions?
A. These two executions, Your Honor.
Q. Well, the reading of the affidavit is not very specific as to how many exeuctions, "I remember that on at least two of these trips executions took place; I became a witness to these executions". These were two trips, but it doesn't say "two executions", it could have been more executions?
A. These were two inspection trips, Your Honor.
Q. Yes, but it says that on at least two of these trips executions took place which leaves the possibility of interpretation that on each trip more than one execution took place.
A. When reading this text this possibility of interpretation exists but, Your Honor, may I say that during my interrogation I clearly testified that these were two executions. I did not formulate this.
Q. All right, now give us the places of these executions.
A. One execution took place during a trip to the Commando 10A, May I point it out on the map?
Q. Please.
A. It was east of Jampol, as far as I remember, it might be the village of Petschanka, but I may be wrong. And when visiting this commando chief of the Einsatzgruppe and I arrived near the headquarters. This was a house which was away from the village. An execution took place there of four or five persons. I witnessed this execution and through the conversation I learned why these people had been executed.
Q. Do you remember the date?
A. I do not know exactly, Your Honor, but as far as I remember it must have been in August--August 1941.
Q. And then where was the second execution which you witnessed?
A. The second execution took place in the area of the Commando 11A near a place east of Kitschinew. I don't know exactly but on either side of this border east of Kitschinew.
Q. And how many were executed this time?
A. As far as I remember, about six people.
Q. And what were they executed for?
A. As the commando leader told us, they were executed because they had looted.
Q. And what were the people at Petschada executed for?
A. I remember that the commando leader told us that these people had set fire to a barn and had hoarded supplies, and had destroyed some sort of agricultural machinery.
Q. You didn't know about either of these cases before you went to the executions?
A. No, Your Honor. This was not the purpose of the trip, it was not known beforehand. We visited these commandos without previous announcement.
Q. Did your official duties require that you attend these executions?
A. No.
Q. Why did you go?
A. I did not go there, Your Honor, I became a witness because this happened at the Commando 10A near the headquarters. I was in the vehicle and by coincidence I became a witness to it.
THE PRESIDENT: How far away from the headquarters did these executions take place?
A. About three to four-hundred meters from a lonely house there.
Q. Well, let's take them individually. Let's take the one at Petschada. How far away from the headquarters did that execution take place;
A. As I just said, several hunder meters, about three to fourhundred meters from this house.
Q. Yes, four-hundred meters, that is about a half of a kilometer, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. So you drove to the place of the execution from the headquarters in your vehicle?
A. Yes.
Q. So, therefore, you went entirely voluntarily to witness this execution?
A. I didn't know anything about the execution, Your Honor.
Q. Why did you go to this place four-hundred meters away if your duties only required you to be at the headquarters?
A. Your Honor, we came to this house on the way, and we passed this place on the road. That is before we had entered the headquarters, and during this time I became a witness to it.
Q. Your didn't go to the headquarters first?
A. When the commando-leader had spoken with the Einsatzgruppe chief, we went into the headquarters.
Q. I still don't understand how you got to this execution without it being the result of your will. Tell us just how it happened. You were in a vehicle, and you were proceeding to what point?
A. I was riding in a vehcile with the chief of the Einsatzgruppe. We reached the town where the Einsatzcommando 10-A was stationed, and on the road which lead to this house -
Q. Which house?
A. Where the headquarters of the Einsatzcommando was located. Befor we arrived there on the road, before the house, about three or four hundred meters before the house we passed the place, and s topped at that place because the Einsatzcommando leader was there, and the road had been blocked off there.