DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, there are some translation difficulties. There is a special word in German, "Gottglaeubig", which cannot be translated. It has a certain philosophical meaning, and the witness coined this word, "Gottglaeubig". It did not exist so far in the German language. This word only existed in the German language since 1936 and he coined it.
Q. (By the President) You created this word in 1936?
A. Yes.
Q. You were thinking about another church while you were already a part of the Lutheran church, because you didn't leave the Lutheran church until 1938?
A. Yes.
Q. You were sort of a heretic in your own church, weren't you?
A. Yes, I have already stated that. I put this question of sincerity to myself before, and therefore I left my office in 1935.
Q. Yes. Now, what have you done toward the establishment of this new church?
A. In order to prepare its organization, that is a difficulty which I shall now come to. I was not permitted to do so by the National Socialist State, to collect all those believers in God and to unite them in one big congregation. Only now after the collapse I have found out, as far as that is possible being interned, that circles of Thuringian Christians and those believers in God, with the permission of the British and American Military Government, formed their own religious groups in the way I have already said, and I myself spoke to representatives, and I am expecting thow that this congregation will mean a rebirth of religion in Germany, as I do not expect it of the existing churches any longer, because they always complain that so little living belief exists today in a population. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, I think you can leave this sphere now. You have already given us an idea that you coined this word, "Gottglaeubig," believing in God, and I don't think that we have to deal with any details now. You say the word, believing in God, "Gottglaeubig," does not mean being an atheist.
A. No, for me this word, "Gottglaeubig," is the strongest emphasis of a belief in God, not that a man says generally, "Well, there probably is a God." Believing in God in the true sense of the wordmeans to seriously reckon with God in all matters of daily life.
Q. Thank you, witness, that will suffice. Did you join the Army when war broke out?
A. No, not immediately. From autumn 1939 to autumn 1940 I remained in the Church ministry, and on the 10th of March, 1940, I joined the Wehrmacht, the Army.
Q. How long were you in the Wehrmacht?
A. From the 10th of March until the 22nd of October 1940.
Q. What rank did you hold?
A. I was private;in July 1940 I became a PFC and on the 6th of October, 1940 I became a non-commissioned officer.
Q. What were you employed for as a soldier?
A. I was a member of an infantry battalion, a home guard battalion which was attached to a Field Kommandature, for guard duty and reconnaissance duty in Mastricht, Arras and Rouen. After the Armistice with France I detached from the Army in order to join the military government. In this connection I made out an application to the Field Kommandature so that I should be taken over into the Military Administration Service. I was to be taken over and according to my rank become senior military administrative councillor.
Q. What was the end of your membership in the Wehrmacht?
A. One day I was ordered to see my battalion commander who told me that I was requested for special service, and that I would have to leave the Wehrmacht.
Q. Did you initiate that by a wish of your own?
A. No, that was a surprise to me. No, it was a surprise to me. On the contrary, I had expressed the wish to remain in the Wehrmacht for the duration of the war, and to be used in the Military Administrative Service. The detail for special service was not what I had wanted.
Q. When were you released?
A. On the 22nd of October, 1940.
Q. What happened after that?
A. A short while later I was told that I had to put myself at the disposal of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD for the duration of the war. This order was an order of the Wehrmacht in which it was said where I was to go for war service.
Q. Through this order then you went to see the Chief of the Security Service and the SD, without your wish?
A. Yes, against my wish.
Q. When did you report to the Reich Security Main Office?
A. That was about the end of October, but I first went on a recreation leave, in order to put myself at their disposal at the end of November for further use.
Q. What assignment were you entrusted with in the RSHA?
A. Nobody in the RSHA knew anything about my situation nor what was going to happen to me. First of all it was ordered that I should for general instruction, go through all the offices, that is through the Offices I to V.
Q.What impression did this create, this information tour?
A. The information I received only gave me a general impression which was, however, strong, but as between my actual professional work and this new sphere, there was no connection of any kind, all these impressions had no basis and vanished only too soon. Only a very few remained.
Q. What was it that remained?
A. Especially what I saw in the Jewish department concerning the solution of the Jewish problem, that is the very department which was competent to deal with these questions. According to this, nothing less had been planned than to give the Jews of Europe a new home which was on the island of Madagasgar. Negotiations with the French government had been started, to buy in an exchange for other objects, Madagasgar from France for this very purpose. Innummerable plans and charts, pictures, statistics on tables, on walls, showed how everything was to be carried out. Favorable climatic conditions, in connection with the fertility for the Jews, as it will not be possible in the case of Palestine, for instance. Here I got for the first time a concrete idea of a practical solution of the Jewish problem. The memory of this information which I received on that occasion remained with me.
Q. That is enough, Witness. Did you thus get the impression that in this information tour that you received a definite idea of what was happening in the RSHA?
A. No, never, because the information was so general that concerning the individual departments it was only very superficial. I had the impression that I was only shown the very best of everything. Secret matters, for instance, were not mentioned. One did not know, however, and I myself couldn't say what I was to do.
Q. Well, what happened after you received this information, this general information?
A. Shortly before this information tour was over I got a telephone call which said Heydrich had decided that I should not get a job with the state police, because I had refused to take over such a job.
Q. What did you do when you heard this?
A. I was very much surprised. I could find no explanation for this telephone message. I went to the then Personnel Chief, Streckenbach, in order to ask him what this telephone call meant.
I learned that the then Office Chief II, Lockermann, a man whom I did not know and a man I had never seen , had submitted a report to Heydrich concerning my own person on the basis of which Heydrich, in anger, decided against me in this manner. That was the first attack against me in this new office.
Q. What did you say to Streckenbach?
A. I told him unambiguously that I had never said anything of the kind, that I had never spoken to Lockermann; any taking over of a State Police job had never been mentioned.
Q. What advice did Streckenbach give you thereupon?
A. He advised me to revoke the letter of Lockermann and ask Heydrich for an interview. I did so, and Streckenbach promised me to bring about an interview. In order to clarify this event, I should like to add now, that it was, of course, true, that on the occasion of this information tour I very often touched the question whether a non-lawyer could ever take over a State Police office. I had the impression that this would not be possible, and I only wanted to hear the opinion of lawyers, who, of course, confirmed this, my opinion. Thereupon, maliciously, a refusal had been constructed, Heydrich had been informed of it , and therefore had been influenced against me.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, would you mind deferring now for fifteen minutes?
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. BY DR. BERGOLD: advised to do something against Heydrich's order that you were not to get that office in the State Police. Why did you not let the matter go, if it was your own opinion that you were not able to do this, no being a lawyer?
A I considered it very seriously at the time. I thought that Heydrich was offended by my rashness. Since I was in his power completely. I could not know what kind of task would be given by him. I was only interested not to spoil my relations with him through false reports by third parties; what I had to say I wanted to tell him myself, because I was convinced that he would understand me. That is why I believed to have acted in the right manner.
Q Did this discussion with Heydrich come about?
AAt first it didn't come off. I applied again and again until on 5 May 1941 I was ordered to Heydrich.
Q What happened during this discussion? What did you agree on with him? expressed his approval of me, because of my attitude and my character, which he considered decent. He asked me whether I would not like to be put into the Einsatz assignment, although I could not quite imagine what this meant. I only knew that it was some kind of police activity abroad. I asked him not to put me into such a position. I pointed out that I had been in the First World War, in combat, and only just now returned from the Western campaign. Heydrich agreed to this, and said that actually he had intended me as a Police Director or Police President, but owing to my knowledge of the church, and church politics, he considered it suitable to employ me in his office.
Q What did he suggest in this connection? Police Office. I explained to him how far removed the world of my spiritual profession was from the activity of the police; that I had no training and knowledge of police duties, and moreover, also that I was not even an officer, and, therefore, I was not certain whether I could carry out this task to his satisfaction. considerations? of character, which he thought I had, and he suggested to me that I should be given a State Police Office assignment for one year on a test. If he was satisfied with me, and I liked this work, he wanted to take me into the Security Police permanently, and at the same time promote me to Regierungsdirektor. If, however, he should not be satisfied with me, he wanted to assist me to be transferred into the inner administration, and also to be promoted to a government direktor. This promotion had already been due, since I had been a Regierungsrat since 20 May 1936. After considering this for a short time I accepted this offer. Police Office? would have done then, I do not know. It seems to me that I had achieved a good deal , and that it would be dangerous to risk this. I had the assurance not to be sent to the Einsatz assignment. I had his assurance to be allowed to leave after one year.
I had his assurance of a position in the inner administration, which was suitable for me. Finally, he wanted to support me to be promoted as a civil servant to become a government director, which had been omitted owing to my conflict with Kerrl at the time. This seemed more to me than I had over expected. he had intended you?
A No, he didn't tell me at the time. State Police Office, Oppeln, and when did this happen?
A Yes, about the middle of June, 1941. I was appointed, dated 1 June.
Q When did you start in the office?
Q What was your task in the State Police Office? departments. One dealt with the personnel department of the administration, and was lead by a Police Counsellor, and the other dealt with the actual police tasks, and was in the charge of a criminal counsellor. The actual police task was again subdivided into sub-departments, which were conducted by criminal commissars, under whose charge the criminal officials worked. The task of the Police Department was to make investigations of such persons who had been arrested because of political crimes. There were several possibilities of dealing with individual cases, and finding the person concerned not guilty, after being interrogated he was released; and, in minor matters the person was warned in writing or verbally, and also released. If serious matters had occurred, the procedure was started and handed over to the prosecution in order to bring it up in court, or to the Reich Security Main Office, Department IV for further decision.
Q Did the State Police Office have any other tasks? matters in public life. experience?
A Yes. It was basically prohibited without instructions from the Reich Security Main Office to take any measures for the State Police concerning the charge. One day it was reported to me that in several villages there had been trouble because a mob had gathered because the kreisleiter (district leader), and the landrat, had ordered between them that when the school vacation started, the crucifixes were to be taken out of the school buildings. When this had been carried out there was unrest. Through my officials I ordered that the crucifixes be brought back into the schools, because the action of the district leader and the local leader was illegal; and order was then restored. thousand voluntarily Bulgarian workers were working under certain conditions which they had been promised. One day a report was given by the supervising officer of the plant district that the Bulgarians intended to return home. The plant asked for the protection of the State Police. I immediately sent a criminal commissar, asking him to settle the matter. He called for a meeting of the one thousand Bulgarians and talked to them, reminding them of the duties which they had promised to carry out. The Bulgarian speaker informed me that the plant had not fulfilled the promises which they had made concerning the work, clothing and shoes, and also about transferring of their salaries to their home country.
their work again immediately. The official, then asked for the executive staff of the works and issued the police order to fulfill the justified requests of the Bulgarian workers. This proved that the executive staff had intended to do this but they themselves had difficulties sometimes, but here we could interfere and thus we managed to eliminate all difficulties. or a large one? and compared them to the other state police offices in the Reich, I could see from the statistics that this was one of the smallest and the quietest state police offices in the Reich. From 1944 it did not exist any longer as an independent state office. during your time was anybody sent to a concentration camp?
A If anybody was sent there it was done by the RSHA. During my time, as far as I remember, within the area of the state police office at Oppeln nobody was sent to a concentration camp, but I remember just one case when somebody was released from a concentration camp. concentration camp? man, did not know them all.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you say this so far as you remember. As you remember no one was sent to a concentration camp from your office in Oppeln. Can't you tell us a little more definitely whether someone was sent or not? Certainly you would remember, wouldn't you, if you had consigned someone to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: These directives were not given by me, if any such existed; but the whole procedure was worked on by the department chief and through the criminal counselor who was the chief of the actual state Court No. II, Case No. IX.
police offices, who examined the matter carefully....
THE PRESIDENT: Did you recommend anyone for consignment to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: I do not remember that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, would you say definitely that you did not?
THE WITNESS: As far as I know, I never did that. I would have remembered now.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you put it in a negative fashion. You say you don't remember. That includes the possibility that you did send someone.
THE WITNESS: I want to exclude that possibibility.
THE PRESIDENT: You say now that you definitely remember that you did not send anyone?
THE WITNESS: Of course, this is a very difficult matter. I have to think about this and it takes time to think it over, and I have thought about it, and I cannot remember any case. Therefore, nobody would have been sent.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, do you say definitely you did not send anyone to a concentration camp or recommend that anyone be sent to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: Well, I say I do not know of any case.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that means then you did not send anyone?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Why didn't you say that at the very beginning instead of putting us to all this trouble of questioning you to finally get that answer? Why did you first say you didn't remember?
THE WITNESS: I had no reason. I just wanted to be careful.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, aren't you careful now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I think I am.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, tell us very definitely, did you or did you not, during the whole year that you were in charge of the state police, recommend that anyone be sent to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: As far as I know, no.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, we: are back to where we started from. Go ahead, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD: directives about sending people to concentration camps. Were you up to your tasks at all? Was it your impression that you could manage such a task?
A I had nad no training. When I started my work I intended to work myself into the matter, but I found such a great number of regulations and orders that I soon gave up my intention. Since it proved everywhere that even the simplest ideas were not known to me which one needed to understand the regulations legally and from a police point of view, I did not even have the most preliminary knowledge which any police official, however minor, did know about. Therefore, I depended entirely on my officials. Of course, they were all well established officials whom I could trust, but I could not act as a leader in order not to make myself ridiculous.
THE PRESIDENT: You knew nothing about police matters?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: And you remained there a year and knew nothing about police matters?
THE WITNESS: There was nothing else for me to do. I had to stay there for this test year.
THE PRESIDENT: And Heydrich sent you there himself and you knew nothing about police matters?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I pointed this out to him.
THE PRESIDENT: And in the whole year's time you never learned what the procedure was to send someone to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: No, a whole professional training one cannot acquire in such a short time, particularly if one comes from an entirely different sphere of life like somebody who has had a spiritual profession.
THE PRESIDENT: Suppose that you learned that in the town of Oppeln there was, let us say, a Hans Smith, who made a declaration to the effect that he hoped that Germany would lose the war because it was an unjust war that she was waging.
That would you do?
THE WITNESS: I would have asked the man to come to me and would have told him to hold onto his own views and keep them to himself and just would have warned him; that is, I wouldn't even have done it because the matter would not even have come to me, but the officials would have settled it.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, suppose that you -
THE WITNESS: I never worked with individuals. I never carried out an interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, suppose it came to your attention that this man was talking against Germany? What would you do?
THE WITNESS: Well, I personally would not have done anything. The man would have been interrogated by the officials.....
THE PRESIDENT: No, you find out about this. You are on your way home one evening from the office and someone comes up to you and tells you that he overheard Hans Smith inveigh against the German Army, the German Government, Hitler and the whole National Socialist regime. He tells you. What do you do?
THE WITNESS: Nobody would have done this, I don't think.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let us suppose someone did. Peculiar things happen.
THE WITNESS: I would have told him, "Don't talk about it. Keep it to yourself, keep it quiet."
THE PRESIDENT: And you are the man that Heydrich thought was worthwhile having as a man in charge of the state police?
THE WITNESS: Well, I told him that I could not do this but he said, "You have common sense and good character; you will manage. We will try it."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let's go a little further. This man who stops you on your way home, says "By the way, I just found out that there is a plot on here to kill Hitler.
I heard the men talking about this; I know the house in which they gather; I saw some bombs being taken into the house and I want you to know about this, Herr Biberstein." What would you do?
THE WITNESS: I would have told him, "Go to Official So and So and report it to him."
THE PRESIDENT: And you would have done nothing?
THE WITNESS: Why, what could I have done? I didn't know what to do. I had no police directives.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all. Proceed, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD: that year? time I came to the conclusion to talk to Heydrich at the end of the year and to leave my office then. I only hoped and wished that nothing might happen for which they might make me responsible.
THE PRESIDENT: Just how did you out in your time during this whole year, beside avoiding people who told you about plots? Just how did you put in your time? You didn't read the directives; you didn't investigate; you didn't interrogate; you sent no one to the concentratin camps; you had a hard time putting in the whole year. Now, tell us just what you did.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that's quite true. At the same time I was political referent with the government president and I helped the deputy of the government president, I worked on files with him and I got detailed information about the tasks of the inner administration. Of course, I signed and sent reports to the RSHA but on the whole I always had to keep quiet because I didn't know all those matters. It would have made nonsense. I saw the things as they actually are and were.
THE PRESIDENT: So your big job was to keep quiet, keep invisible, and avoid people telling you about plots against Hitler.
That's the way you put in the whole year?
THE WITNESS: Yes, about this plot against Hitler I don't ouite understand. I said if anything like that came up I would have told this man who told me, to report this to the police official. He would be interested in this.
THE PRESIDENT: You would not be interested?
THE WITNESS: No, when I say, "Go to him", that is, then I had done everything that was necessary in my opinion because I can't arrest the people.
THE PRESIDENT: And you would go home feeling fine and entirely content that you had done your duty to your Fuehrer?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the official would then deal with it. I wouldn't know what to do concerning police matters.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, on the following day suppose you found out that nothing had been reported to the official in charge of investigations? Would you just lie low and do nothing?
THE WITNESS: In that case I would have told some official, "Go and see that man. He told me some story yesterday and examine the case." That would have been my duty as it is the duty of any citizen.
THE PRESIDENT: But not because you were the chief of the State police?
THE WITNESS: In that position I was a strange figure, I know that. I felt this very deeply, your Honor, because in Germany there was hardly any man of my kind to hold such office.
THE PRESIDENT: But in the meantime how can you tell this official to go find this man. You had not taken his address. You brushed him off by telling him, "Go see the police official. I just happen to be the chief. Don't bother me with this. I have to go home to go to sleep." You didn't even take his address. Now, how would this investigator know the next day whom to go see?
THE WITNESS: Probably I would have known the man if he had talked to me. I would have asked him, "Who are you?"
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you would have asked him, "Who are you?"
THE WITNESS: Yes, I would have asked him, to be sure....
THE PRESIDENT: And would you have written down his name and address?
THE WITNESS: I did not have a notebook with me.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I see.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, may I say something?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, Dr. Bergold, surely.
DR. BERGOLD: I think this is a hypothetical question. The misfortune is, and that is what I wanted to show with my question, here a man came out of a purely religious life and was suddenly ordered to take part in this office and he behaved like a surprised outsider and withdrew and did nothing.
THE PRESIDENT: But even a preacher would carry a notebook, wouldn't he?
DR. BERGOLD: True but this is only hypothetical. This case never arose.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Bergold.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, how did it come about that you were transferred to Russia?
A In May 1942 Heydrich died. While I was still considering how I would have to act under these changed circumstances, after the end of the test year and how I should be able to be relieved from the duty with the security police at the end of that year. Unexpectedly in the second half of July I received a letter from the RSHA which drafted me to Russia as Chief of Einsatzkommando 6 of Einsatzgruppe C.
Q What did you do in view of that order? by Heydrich completely. Heydrich was dead, and I did not know to whom I could talk about this. Therefor, I could do nothing except obey the order which was given to me as a war time measure. I did not imagine what kind of tasks I would have to do but I thought it would be something similar to the job in the stae police office. I made the preparations which were prescribed, namely, I had amedical examination and I was inoculated. I was in no hurry because I still hoped for the possibility that this order would be rescinded, During the examination by the official physician it was found that owing to a chronic gall bladder ailment, I was only able to do service to a certain extent. This certificate I immediately sent, not without hope, to Berlin. After that I received a teletype message instructing me to report to Berlin before going to Russia and to report to the RSHA there.
Q What was the result of this discussion in Berlin?
A In Berlin I was sent to Obersturmbannfuehrer Trautmann. He wanted to talk to me about my state of health.
During that discussion I heard that allegedly I had applied for a job as a commander in Russia. I was horrified about this lie and strongly denied ever having talked to anyone about an assignment in Russia, nor to have applied for a position as commander. On the contrary on that occasion I pointed out that Heydrich had expressly assured me and promised me that I would not be used in an Esternt assignment. I requested that my supposed application be given to me to see. Trautmann could not give me such a report to see because it did not exist. I understood from his words that somebody had made a wrong report again. I could not find out who had done this. An assumption on my part was denied and the name was refused to be mentioned to me. Trautmann then asked me what I intended to do. I pointed out that I had no choice as long as the order existed, but that I intended, by describing all that had happened, to ask that this order concerning the security police be revoked immediately and that I would not only not be sent to Russia. Trautmann advised me to go to Russia for the time being and to make application from there concerning this because that would make a better impression. order revoked from Russia? remain in Russia. I asked for my rights because, first of all, I had been promised by Heydrich not to be sent on Einsatz assignment; secondly, I did not want to be sent to Russia because of a false report; thridly, according to the discussion with Heydrich at the end of the test year, at last I wanted to be released from my duty in the secuirty police; fourthly, the entire work in the security police did not agree with me at all because of my personal manner of living as a theologian, without giving an estimation of the work as such; and fifthly, I could not belong and did not want to belong to any organization where I constantly met false reports as it happened in the security police and SD, according to the experiences which I had had.
I was tired of this terror, but still I had to go about it carefully. I thought I could not trust in anyone anymore.
Q What did you do as a result of that discussion? message and sent it to berlin.
Q How did Berlin react to your teletype message? message, not to leave for the time being that I regained some hope. After a week a teletype message arrived with the laconic information that nothing could be done about my transfer.
Q When did you receive the order of transfer to Russia? received on 16 or 17 July 1942.
Q When did you go to Russia?
Q There was a long period between that. Why did this take so long? of my offices to my successor. He was still in Riga at the time. After his return, before taking over the offices in Oppeln, he took leave for two weeks. Therefore, the transfer took place about the middle of August. A week later I had my discussion in Berlin and again a wekk later I received the teletype message that nothing could be done about my transfer. That is why I left for Russia at the beginning of September.
Q Where did you go to first in Russia? Chief Dr. Thomas, and he told me about the headquarters of the EK 6 which I did not yet know before I left because not even Berlin knew it.
Q How did your report go to Dr. Thomas, how did it take place?