I do think this question which the defense counsel is just going to ask is not admissible. He said he did not know him, that is all he can say. I do not think that he can ask him whether he know that something was not said. He did not know anything; he heard the name of Graf, and nothing also, and I do think that that covers the ground the defense counsel is supposed to cover with this question.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Belzer, if somebody excludes all knowledge on a subject, then it is unnecessary to ask him if he is also ignorant of the little bite which fit into this all ignorance.
DR. BELZER: I am coming to the question, "Could Graf have been the Chief of Department III or was he only an expert?" That was the purpose of the question.
DR. HORLICK--HOCHWALD: But I do think, Your Honor, that this question is absolutely inadmissible.
THE PRESIDENT: If someone says he knows nothing about Abyssinia, then could you ask him, "Well, is it possible that Mr. X is the Chief of Police there?"
DR. BELZER: Not in this form, but I can put the question generally, "Could an Oberscharfuehrer be head of Department III?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that's a different thing. Then you qualify this man as an expert in SS -
DR. BELZER: Yes, as a kommando leader, according to his official experience in the departments of EK. 6.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that would be proper, If you want to ask him whether someone with a certain rank could hold a certain position, yes, that's proper.
Q. (By Dr. Belzer) Then I ask you generally, Witness, could a Scharfuehrer or an Oberscharfuehrer in the Einsatzkommando 6 be the Chief of Department III?
A. From what I found in EK 6, the chiefs of the various departments in the staff of the Einsatzkommando were officers. The Chief of Department III was SS Obersturmfuehrer in my kommando.
Q. Then I have one final question. In Einsatzkommando 6, as far as you knew the conditions, were the Experts III used for police measures in Department IV?
A. No, for they had enough to do with their SD work, because partly they were not experienced men and therefore they needed a long time to get accustomed. I cannot remember such a case.
DR. BELZER: I thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Any other defense, counsel who desires to cross-examine the witness may do so.
MR. Hochwald, there being no other cross-examination on the part of defense counsel, will you now proceed?
DR. BERGOLD (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT BIBERSTEIN): Your Honor, I have a request. I observe that my client has become blue in the fact. He has a heart ailment and after this strenuous day I want to know if he is able to stand it; I don't want him to get sick.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, it is a quarter after four and we are certainly willing to accept your suggestion that the Tribunal will now recess. 9:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 24 November 1947, at 0930 hours.)
A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
ALBERT HARTEL, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows;
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Raise your right hand and repeat after me: pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
( The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Be seated. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, please speak slowly because of the translation. Furthermore, I ask you to pause after each of my questions so that the interpreter can finish translating the question before you gegin with your answer. Do we understand each other?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. What is your name; when and where were you born?
A. My name is Albert Hartel, H-A-R-T-E-L. I was born on the 13th of November, 1904, in Ross-Holzen, Upper Bavaria.
Q. Who were your parents?
A. My father was Albert Hartel, a teacher. My mother was Babette Hartel. Her maiden name was Obermayer.
Q. What was your original profession?
A. I studied philosophy and Chatholic theology, and I was originally a Catholic theologian.
Q. What did you do during the Third Reich down to the end of the war?
A. Down to the end of 1933-1934 I was a teacher of religion at different seminaries and higher institutions of learning. Around the trun of the year, 1933-1934, for reasons of religious conviction, and for reasons of common sense, I left the church service. I was asked by the church to return several times. When I did not comply with this request I was suspended from my offices for reasons of refusal to obey the church order. At the beginning of the year, 1934, Himmler whose father and cousin I knew very well, gave me a scholarly commission, and in 1940 I got the order to take care of the Church Information Service in the SD Main Office, that is to say the later RSHA, and to build this service up. It was my job in this to get in touch with high-ranking church personalities of all confessions and to win them over for cooperation with the SD. Around the turn of the year, 194142, I was sent to Russia. There I obtained a special mission to study the spiritual situation in the Soviet Union, and in the second half of the year 1942, I was temporarily charged with leadership of the Departments I and II with the command of the Security Police in Kiev. The first half of the year 1943 I spent in several hospitals. After that I left the service in the full capacity and lived as a free-lance writer, and was known as a so-called V-man, in which capacity I worked for Office VI of the RSHA.
Q. When did you get to know the Defendant Biberstein?
A. I met him about the end of 1935 or beginning of 1936.
Q. On what occasion did you meet him?
A. Biberstein was in the church Ministry. He was a liaison officer from the Church Ministry to the Gestapo, and merely the facr that he was a Protestant thrologian and I was a former Catholic theologian, of course, brought with it many common interests.
Q. Is the fact that Biberstein was liaison between the church Ministry and the Gestapo, was that something special, or did the Ministry have liaison officers to other agencies?
A. All ministries had liaison officers to all kinds of agencies and in the Church Ministry too there were liaison officers detailed to various agencies, such as the Office Rosenberg, and to similar agencies.
Q. Do you know that the Catholic department in the Church Ministry had a liaison man to the Gestapo?
A. On the Catholic side the situation was as follows: A Catholic priest, Joseph Roth, was himself a director of the Catholic department in the Church Ministry.
Q. Was he a liaison man with the Gestapo?
A. He maintained contact with the most varied agencies. Mr. Roth, the catholic priest, was, for example, liaison man between the Church Ministry and the Office Rosenberg. In addition to that the Catholic Church also had another institution. It had its own Bishop Wienken, who had his own office in Berlin where he maintained contact with all Reich Agencies.
Q. Was this man Roth active without the approval of the Catholic Church, or did Cardinal Faulhaber approve?
A. According to the Concordate between the Vatican and the Reich Government, the regulation was that Catholic Priests who wanted to have a State Office needed the approval of the Catholic Church, or of their Bishop. That applied to all the religious teachers, theological teachers, and so forth since they all were civil servants in the Third Reich. Roth, before he came to the Church Ministry was already a religious teacher at the Maria Theresia High School, thus he did no longer need a formal approval before he could take over the position at the Church Ministry. Of course the church could have revoked the approval at any time. Such a revocation did not take place, and, therefore, Roth was considered an official recognized by the church. He always was on terms of cordian understanding with the various Bishops, they frequently called on him. He also enjoyed great respect with the Party, and, for instance received honorary tickets for the Party rally from Hitler for the Papal Easter Celebrations in Rome.
Q. That suffices. What job did these liaison men to the Gestapo have?
A. Their mission was partly merely a missenger role when it was a matter of transmitting requests or messages from the Bishop to the Chief of the Gestapo, and partly when it was a matter of subordinate a gencies, as of the office chief of the Gruppen-leiter of the Gestapo.
Then he had in all matters that concerned the Gestapo and the Church Ministry mutually to negotiate directly.
Q. Did these liaison men thus become members of the Gestapo?
A. No.
Q. Did they become members of the SD in this way?
A. No, they didn't.
Q. Are you of the opinion that Biberstein because of these activities already had an exact insight into the activities and aims of the Gestapo or the SD?
A. No, this in itself contradicted the purpose of the Information Service.
MR. HOCHWALD: Your Honor, I would think that is is necessary to rephrase this question. Dr. Bergold asked the witness what was his opinion: it would probably be good to have the witness say why he came to that conclusion, what the basis of this opinion was.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Bergold, it is not a question of opinion but a question of what he knows?
DR. BERGOLD: No, it is a question of his judgement here. He cannot know exactly what Biberstein knew, but he can only judge in general, whether it was possible or impossible, but then I shall ask him how he came to this judgment?
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
THE WITNESS: It was in contradiction to the manner of conducting the Information Service to allow an outsider any insight into the details of activity. That was the basic principle with every Information Service. If the Information Service had to give the newest and often most secret information to these official agencies, then this must not be immediately publicized, and later there was an express order from Hitler that no one must learn about anything except what was absolutely necessary for his special activity. Furthermore, the SD Main Office handled matters in such a way, that within the various departments, there was a law of secrecy, and there were many secrets, and no department would initiate another department into its activity as long as it was not absolutely necessary, and this was certainly true for an outsider.
Q. In the course of these activities, did Biberstein get into any contact with the SS?
A. In the course of the activity, he was taken into the SS as an honorary officer. I do not know exactly whether as an Untersturmfuehrer, or as an Obersturmfuehrer, but in any case it was one of the lowest officers rands.
Q. Did this appointment result in the fact that he had to perform a professional activity for the SS?
A. This appointment didn't change anything in the activity he was carrying out.
Q. Was Biberstein promoted quickly in the SS, or was he not promoted quickly?
A. Up to the rank of Sturmbannfuehrer he was promoted normally. After that he was no longer promoted. He didn't even get the rank to which he was entitled on the basis of his official position, because he was in the Senior Government Counsellorship, but he remained a Sturmbannfuehrer, however.
Q. Can you tell me for what reason the promotion didn't go through? Do you know the reason?
A. In the later time there was a strong lack of confidence and a great distrust for all theologians: partly there was a fight against former theologians. They were suspected of being Jesuits, and were not promoted in the same degree as they had been previously. At the same time it must be added in the case of Biberstein, that he was considered very soft, and, therefore, it was said about him that he didn't fit into the Gestapo.
Q. Did the activity of Biberstein in the Church Ministry proceed in a satisfactory manner, or did he have differences of opinion with the Ministry?
A. With the exception of the early days, Biberstein had very many differences with the Church Ministry. His Chief, Minister Kerl was of a very explosive temperament, on the one hand he would decide this way today, the other way tomorrow, and on the other hand, he had a basic principle in his church policy, which contradicted our philosophy, for we from the SS tried basically to achieve a peaceful separation between the church and the State in an agreement with the Vatican, the way it was done in many Democracies. The Church Ministry, however tried to achieve a State Church which according to our convictions, was absolete. Thus there were great objective differences outside of the personal differences between Biberstein and his chief.
Q. What results did these differences have as far as the promotion of Biberstein was concerned?
A. Biberstein was no longer promoted, whereas his Catholic Colleague, the Catholic Priest Roth very quickly was promoted Ministerial Director, but Biberstein was taken into the Ministry as a Senior Government Counsellor, as it corresponded to his previous position -- the position of Dean -- and then he was no longer promoted after that.
Q. Can you tell me -- I withdraw the question. What picture do you have of the character of Biberstein; was he an idealist, or just an ambitious man?
A. May I answer this question at the end, please?
Q. Yes.
A. I think it will become clearer then.
Q. Do you know that Biberst ein was drafted in the beginning of the war?
A. Yes, at the beginning of the war Biberstein was drafted, and he had a very low rank in the Army. I once saw him in uniform, and I believe he was a PFC, or at the most a corporal.
In any case, he wasn't more than a corporal.
Q. Do you know for what reason Biberstein was disignated indispensable, and was transferred to the SD?
A. Yes. One day I was ordered to report to Heydrich, and Heydrich told me very harshly, "Hartel, what do you have against Biverstein? Why do you want to see him out of the Church Ministry?" I told him that I had nothing against him, but that he himself had personally expressed the wish to leave the Church Ministry at the very next opportunity. Heydrich thereupon told me, "Good, I will get him out of there," and shortly afterwards Biberstein was made indispensable for the Reich Ministry, or the Gestapo. I don't know exactly what it was.
Q. Did Biberstein apply for such a transfer?
A. Biberstein told me at the time that he didn't know anything about it previously.
Q. Is it correct then that this transfer resulted merely from a conference between Heydrich and you, in your opinion?
A. Yes, but I never heard of the reasons by which that question of Heydrich of what I had against Biberstein could have been caused.
Q. But you understood the question to mean..or, how did you understand the question, whether Heydrich wanted to keep Biberstein in the Church Ministry, or whether he wanted to get him out of there?
A. First when Heydrich wanted to know whether I had any objections against Biberstein, or was he my enemy, or if I had anything against him. He must have heard from somebody, or sother, a remark to the effect that it would be a good idea if Biberstein would leave the Church Ministry, but I don't know the exact background. In any case, the result of this conference was that Heydrich immediately planned on his part to get Biberstein out of the Ministry.
Q. What job or position did Heydrich want to give Biberstein?
A. Heydrich wanted to make Biberstein a Police President, or at least a Police Director.
Q. And what position did he get?
A. There were continuous tensions at the time between the regular police and the security police, and, therefore, as he told me later, Heydrich didn't succeed immediately to get Biberstein a position as Police president, because there were many applicants for that position within the regular police ranks, and Heydrich explained to me that until a position as Police President became available, he would make Biberstein the head of a State Police Agency.
Q. Was this command to be his final position, his final mission?
A. No. Heydrich told me from the beginning that this was only a temporary solution until he would get a position as Police President.
Q. Because of his former profession as a Priest, did Biberstein have difficulties among the Gestapo people, or didn't his early profession make any difference?
A. Biberstein had great difficulties. I was a witness when the then Chief of Office I, Streckenbach, told the then Chief of Office IV, Mueller, by telephone that he had received the order to give Biberstein a State Police position, and that both were angry due to the fact that Biberstein had no previous training in the police department, and that in view of his soft attitude it was senseless to give him such a position.
Q. Did you see Biberstein again during the war?
A. Biberstein was commanding officer of an Einsatzcommando in Rostov, and I do not know exactly whether it was the name of Einsatzcommando, or a special commando, or a commander I don't know, and his job was of two-fold mission, Information Service and Executive; the two missions which in the Reich were subdivided, one to the Gestapo and the Criminal Police as Security Police, and the other to the SD, as the Information Service.
Q. Did he thus become a full time member of the SD through this activity?
A. Through this activity he didn't. There were a number of people from other agencies who had been detailed for the Einsatz, but through the fact of the Einsatz they didn't automatically become members of the SD.
Q. When you met Biberstein again in Kiev, did you hear from him that he had made an application to be transferred back to Germany?
A. Whether he told me about this, I don't know. In any case, he was very unhappy in this position, was very angry, and explained again and again that he wanted to get out of this "pig-sty".
Q. Did Biberstein have a deputy in his office?
A. Originally he had not, but in the course of time, I don't know exactly when, so far as I recall, a Sturmbannfuehrer or Obersturmbannfuehrer Nehring was given to him as a deputy.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, just what was Biberstein referring to as a "pig-sty"?
THE WITNESS: Well, I had used the term "sauladen", but it is about the same. I think he was disgusted.
Q. Well, naturally, he was disgusted, but just what did he mean by a "pig-sty"? When you call something a "pig-sty" certainly you are disgusted, but just what were you referring to?
A. He referred partly to his chief or commander of the Einsatzgruppe, Dr. Thomas, with whom he had very violent differences, and then it referred to his entire activity. It did not agree with his character to carry out executive measures.
Q. What do you mean by executive measures?
A. Execution of sabotuers, or other cases, I didn't know what were the individual cases.
Q. Well, did you understand that Biberstein was conducting executions himself?
A. Whether persoanlly, I don't know, but he gave the order, to rather, sofar as I remember after a through investigation he probably had given the order.
Q. Did he himself give the orders for executions?
A. That was the mission of a commander, to decide these things so far as I know.
Q. How many executions did he order, do you know?
A. I don't know. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, did you see or did you observe Biberstein in his ac tivities in Rostov?
A. No, at the time he was in Rostov I was not in Rostov, but I observed the activity of his predecessor in Stalino, or rather I heard people tell about it.
Q. You only saw Biberstein in Kiev?
A. Yes.
Q. As you say, in June 1943?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Is that the correct year? He then went back to the Reich with you?
A. Yes, that is right. We travelled together for a short distance, and somewhere in Rovno we separated.
Q. Do you know whether in the District of Biberstein, mass executions took place at any time?
A. I didn't hear anything about this.
Q. What job did Einsatzgruppefuehrer Thomas have primarily?
A. From the Spring on, when I could observe his activity, Dr. Thomas considered the partisan warfare as his basic mission. The partisan problem in 1942 was the center of his whole activity.
Q. Do you know anything about Thomas' motive for such a specific activity?
A. That was a two-fold motive: For one thing the partisan danger in the north of his area, and in the forests, in the Pripjat marshes, in the upper Dnjepr River, was very great; whereas, in the south, in the plains, where there were no forests, there were, of course, no partisans to this extent, and in the south, therefore, the partisan danger was actually very great and the Army, complained about the interruption of the supply lines by the partisans, and the civil agencies, especially the agricultural leaders, had very much to suffer from the partisans; that was a very objective necessity. At the same time Dr. Thomas was very ambitious, and he wanted to earn his medals, he had a "sore throat", as we used to say.
That also probably played a part, but the basic reason which was the objective necessity.
"sore throat" means in German War language. which one wore around the neck. keen nature of this partisan warfare?
A Yes. Dr. Thomas set up his own partisan combatting staff into which a number of officers were called and the higher SS and police leader Pruetzmann also set up his own partisan combatting staff. Then they took care of the ordnance supply which was necessary to fight partisans, for instance mortars. During the second half of the year 1942 I had the temporary direction of the supply of arms which belonged to Department 2, and I had to worry about mortars and heavy arms in order to combat the partisans. The people of the partisan staff always had access to Thomas, whereas the other people often had to wait very long to see him. Then he himself flow around with an airplane, or he travelled in a special train in the especially crucial partisan areas.
Q Such arms which you have just mentioned weren't they usually with the Einsatzkommandos or Einsatzkommando groups? the army.
Q Is it true or don't you know whether Thomas had a special partisan fighting staff within his staff?
A Yes. I think I have mentioned that he had his own partisan staff. The chief of his partisan staff was simultaneously the G-2 of the partisan fighting staff of the Obergruppenfuehrer Pruetzmann.
units in order to fight the partisans. any statements from Thomas on the subject? he did not like the former theologians and because Biberstein was much too soft for him. Furthermore, Biberstein had a disciplinary proceeding at the end, but what the matter concerned was, I don't know exactly. It was some kind of a complicated matter, but Thomas was very furious and even threatened to have Biberstein shot for military disobedience at the front, but afterwards this proceeding must have been pigeon-holed.
Q Who was Biberstein's predecessor in the EK-6? not know. I know the predecessor in Stalino. I think that was EK-6 but I cannot say this exactly. I was in Stalino twice and there I met Sturmbannfuehrer Moor. Perhaps he was his predecessor, but I do not know exactly.
Q That is correct. Did you have a conference with this Moor about the executions? through southern Russia, and make an extensive report about the spiritual situation in the Soviet Union. At this occasion I visited hundreds of artists, scholars, bishops, etc. and I visited all the scholarly institutes in this area, and I also visited the Einsatzkommandos and asked their commanding officers about the spiritual life in their area. During this conference Moor also told me about his activity, and he told me that after very thorough investigations, after exact examinations he frequently had to have executions carried out. I also remember a statement made by Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Thomas that he was not very sympathetic to this method.
He once objected very strenuously to it that once could not get anywhere with these pedantic legal methods as practiced by Moor .... BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q We don't know who the "he" is. You spoke of Thomas and Moor. Then you have been using a pronoun since, "he". Now, do you mean "Moor" or "Thomas"?
A The last time I meant Thomas. Thomas told me that he had no patience with the correct methods of Moor, and likewise with the correct methods, the way Herr Ohlendorf carried them out, that he did not agree with these methods. Thomas had great antipathy for Ohlendorf just because of his bureaucratic pedantic correctness, as he called it. Thomas said that in Russia one would have to be more generous. BY DR. BERGOLD: explained that he was carrying out executions only after exact investigations? second time in June, I think. The second visit was occasioned by a report which the local SD expert, Graf, had made about the orthodox theologians and their various contacts with the NKVD or to the monarchists or other circles. And this report of the intelligence man at that commando, Graf, interested me very much, of course. So that I visited Stalino once more. Whether the conversation took place during the first or the second visit, I cannot say any more. there were Ukrainians -- Ukrainian militia competent for investigations?
commanders that members of the Ukrainian militia were in the office of the commanding officer and handed in reports about certain occurrences. activity in Russia altogether, did you get to know the so-called Jewish Order, that is an order by Hitler according to which Jews, according to their membership in the Jewish race had to be executed? an order, but on the basis of various facts I concluded that somebody, namely, a very high instance, had given such an order. within the RSHA? BY THE PRESIDENT: spiritual life in Russia? my report. I made out a very extensive report at the time.
Q Did you see him from time to time in Russia?
A No. I only saw him in Russia in 1943 when he had his proceeding against him.
Q Where was this? and he was also in Kiev at the same time because of a disciplinary proceeding. He had been called away from his headquarters. He was inactive in Kiev at the time, and I was inactive and because of our former acquaintance we, of course, talked about various matters.