Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Ohlendorf, did ha discuss with you the nature of the duties which were awaiting you in Russia? already mentioned. He was in a hurry. We only talked briefly about matters and then I made efforts to get the car and the driver. During the journey, I wasn't in Ohlendorf's car for three or four days. That must have been a mistake in his statement, because he travelled together with Minister Lie and I travelled in my car with my driver throughout the whole journey, so that even there I had no opportunity to discuss this with Herr Ohlendorf, but I can only assure you again that the special task which is contained in the Fuehrer order I heard about for the first time in Nikolaiew.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal recessed until 26 November 1947 at 0930 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. able Tribunal.
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand. Now, repeat the oath after me: will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, may I now start to examine the witness?
PRESIDENT: You may if you will, Dr. Riediger. testified as follows:
Q. Frau Weinmann, will you please tell us when and where you were born?
A. I was born 7 August 1911 in Reutlingen, in Wuertemberg.
Q. Where is your permanent address now?
A. In Reutlingen, Schumann Street 15.
Q. Do you know Herr Walter Haensch?
A. Yes.
Q. When and where did you meet him?
A. In Berlin during a small invitation. It might have been in '39 or '40.
Q. After meeting him did you meet him again repeatedly, after this?
A. No, I cannot remember that.
Q. When did you meet Haensch again?
A. At the end of February 1942.
Q. On what occasion?
A. Herr Haensch and my husband travelled together from a station in Berlin, I believe it was Charlottenburg station.......they travelled to the East.
Q. Do you know exactly that this was at the end of February 1942, and do you have a special reason for remembering that?
A. Yes. On 6 February 1942 my second child was born in Berlin.
Q. How old was the child when your husband and Herr Haensch started to go to the East......started out on this journey?
A. I know this almost exactly, because my mother-inlaw was in Berlin at the time, and I told her, "Well, the child is just three weeks old, and father already has to leave". I was very worried about this because already then things were very dangerous because of the air raids attacks. We women were Very much afraid to be left alone like this with the two small children and to have to do without my husband.
Q. Do you know whether your husband and Haensch travelled immediately to this commando of which he was going to put in charge, or whether this journey was interrupted at all?
A. Yes. In the first letter which I received from my husband it said that they had stayed in Luov and Kiev for a few days during the journey, and after they had finished travelling by train they had to travel by car for some distance.
Q. Do you know when your husband arrived at the front?
A. That must have taken a long time from Berlin to the point where he was assigned because I had to wait a long time for the first letter, but from his explanations I realized that he had already written from the place from where he had arrived one or two days after he arrived there.
Q. Can you not give any further dates.....no more exact dates?
A. No, I cannot do that.
Q. Do you know when your husband heard that he was to be assigned in the East?
A. That must have been sometime before the child was born because I always said I hoped that he would still be there when the child would be born; and then he was there on 6 February. The actual time of his departure he only heard about a week before because everything happened very quickly, then.
Q. That was the actual departure. But concerning his assignment to the East, you just said he already heard about it before the child was born?
A. Yes.
DR. RIEDIGER: I have no further questions of the witness.
PRESIDENT: Very well. Cross examination, Mr. Hochwald.
By MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Witness, were you a member of the Nazi Party?
A. No.
Q. Were you a member of one of the affiliations of the Nazi Party?
A. No.
Q. Your husband was a member of the SS, was he not?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his rank?
A. At what time?
Q. 1939 to 1945.
A. In 1939 my husband was Sturmbannfuehrer to Obersturmbannfuehrer. I am sorry, I don't know exactly any more, but in 1945 he was Oberfuehrer.
Q. You said that you met the defendant, Haensch in 1939, and then you did not see him up to February 1942, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When he went with your husband to the East, was your husband assigned to an Einsatzkommando or an Einsatzgruppe in the East?
A. The word "Einsatzkommando" I believe, I only properly got to know. At the time I Knew that my man was going to be put in charge of a commando in the East.
Q. Is it known to you whether Haensch was supposed to serve together with your husband?
A. I Knew that they left Berlin at the same time, but I also knew at the time that they were being sent to different destinations.
Q. Now I want to speak to you about a letter to which you have referred, which was written by your husband and and from which you deduced that Haensch came very much later to his assignment.
There were different assignments. May I assume that your husband wrote to you in this letter "Haensch and I" or "I and Haensch", or that he wrote "we", and you were of the opinion that that was Haensch. Can you tell the Tribunal whether the name of Haensch appeared in this letter you have been referring to just now, or whether your husband wrote just generally about the delay of his assignment?
A. My husband wrote "we". I am certain of that.
Q. So you can't say, in other words, the name of Haensch did not appear in this letter?
A. I cannot say this for certain any more.
Q. You told the Tribunal that it took a very long time before you got your first information from your husband. Can you tell the Tribunal.......you very likely have received later letters, too.......how long it usually took to get a letter from the East to Berlin?
A. Of course, I did receive some letters from my husband from the front, and for a wife who is waiting, it took rather long.
Q. I understand that. Can you tell the Tribunal how long approximately it took?
A. No, I don't know exactly. I cannot determine a definite period.
MR. HOCHWALD: Thank you very much. No further questions.
PRESIDENT: The witness will be excused. You have no further questions, Dr. Riediger?
DR. RIEDIGER: No.
PRESIDENT: Very well. The witness will be excused.
PRESIDENT: The defendant, Braune, will be taken to the witness stand.
DR. MAYER: Dr. Mayer for Braune. Your Honor, I ask that I may continue with the examination of yesterday of the defendant, Braune.
PRESIDENT: Please do. BY DR. MAYER:
Q Dr. Braune, yesterday we had arrived at the question whether you had the possibility of desertion, and thus evade carrying out the Fuehrerorder; you answered "No" to this question. I now ask you the question: Was there a possibility for you to avoid the carrying out the order?
A No. Even with the strictest measures and the strictest standards, I saw no possibility in my situation to do so. silently, that is, sabotage its execution?
A No. There was no such possibility for me either. Please consider, I took over the commando in November. For months the commando had been in the assignment already, and under my predecessor they had carried out their tasks. The Fuehrerorder was known to the leaders and the men. Under those circumstances, there was no such possibility. In addition, the measures in Simferopol were given through an order by the army which was at the headquarters of the Einsatzgruppe. reasons, but you considered it your duty to carry it out, being an order from your supreme commander, and you saw no possibility of avoiding its being carried out?
Q But couldn't you have tried through your superior, Herr Ohlendorf, to have the order changed somehow -- did you try that? Ohlendorf, too, could not change the Fuehrerorder because of the prevailing situation. I knew Herr Ohlendorf. I Knew his inner attitude towards this order. Until this day I am convinced if there had been one possibility for him to change or have the order revoked, he would have done this. In October, when Himmler was present, he made a last attempt. He wasn't even given a reply. What could I do as his subordinate in such a situation . After this, Herr Ohlendorf expressed that such an attempt on my part would have had no sense. BY THE PRESIDENT: Ohlendorf? between us on a comradely and human basis. about some personal problem in which you thought that he might be able to assist you with counsel and advice? Ohlendorf with personal matters.
Q Well, then, why didn't you talk with him about this -- why didn't you say to him, "that it is very difficult for me to execute this order, can't you do something to save me from it, can't you put me on some other assignment", why didn't you ask him to use his efforts to cause you to avoid the execution of the order?
I think during the winter months we talked about it repeatedly, but I knew from these very discussions that in spite of the very good relation between us and considering our friendship, Herr Ohlendorf would not have understood me at all if I had come to him and said, "Please send me home, and let somebody else do this very difficult task instead of me." I believe Herr Ohlendorf would have considered me a shirker if I had done this and he would not have had the slightest understanding in spite of our good relation. That is how I understood him, even during our conversations which we had. coward than to take the chance in asking him to relieve you from this task which you found so onerous and distateful?
A No, Your Honor. I was convinced that there would be no point in it, and that Herr Ohlendorf would not have been able to do anything. without even putting the question to him? and his general attitude toward these things -- I knew his opinion about this, but I think one thought never occurred to him which was to go and say, "Take me away from this difficult task, allow me to withdraw from this difficult task, and give it to somebody else", and that is why I was convinced that he would not understand such a request on my part. I point out that such a request would have been considered shirking and cowardice in front of the enemy, and, therefore, it would have been considered a crime according to martial law. A soldier who comes and says, "I want to go away from the front, I want to go home", in my conviction will be put before a court martial.
Q But that wasn't the situation as you described it; you had a very friendly relationship with Ohlendorf. You discussed this very question. Why couldn't you have said to him, "General, I find myself in a very difficult situation, I want to do my duty where it comes to fighting the enemy, but where it comes to shooting down defenseless people, I just can't do it; now, can't you, as a friend, see to it that I will not be called upon to do this, assign me to some other work, have me relieved anything so that I won't have to do this", why couldn't you have said this in effect, not those words, but that thought -- why couldn't you have expressed that thought to him? of Herr Ohlendorf that it was not easy for me to do this task, but I can only repeat what I said before, and this is how it was, in fact; according to the general situation, I thought there was no point in asking for this request because I was convinced that the answer would be in the negative.
Q Well, then you decide Ohlendorf's mind without giving him a chance to express it to you? to that effect, and that is why I never mentioned it to him. What also played a part in this way was that I felt somehow at the time myself that it would not be decent to try to shirk from a very difficult task in wartime, and to give it to somebody else, to get rid of inner misgivings and worries myself and pass them on to somebody else. sensitive than others, and it is no reflection upon an individual if he happens to be in that category of hypersensitive people.
You know that to be a fact, don't you?
A Yes, Your Honor. And I believe I can say with a clear conscience that I consider myself one of them.
Q Yes. Very well. If you considered yourself a hypersensitive individual, you could visualize that there would be others not so hypersensitive, couldn't you?
Q So that you could have said to Ohlendorf, "Now, I am a very hypersensitive person, perhaps you can find someone who doesn't feel such a revulsion in performing this very disagreeable task", there would have been nothing wrong about that, would there? I did not think it would be any good if I asked; I was fully convinced that the answer would be in the negative, and that was the very reason why I never made this request. My personal attitude towards these matters, I believe Herr Ohlendorf knew at the time and knows now, and if there had been a possibility for him, I am convinced that I would not even have had to ask, and he would have acted in that manner on his own, but since he never opened that chain of thought, I did not make this special request to him.
PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Mayer. BY DR. MAYER:
Q Dr. Braune, why, in your opinion, did Hitler give this order?
A I can only repeat what we were told at the time; it was that it was a fight for our existence in the East, that these measures were necessary in order to secure the rear of the army in the occupied territory, and that communist functionaries and Eastern Jews were the decisive bearers of this fight which the Bolshevists fought, which was outside all rules.
BY THE PRESIDENT: decisive bearers of Bolshevism? the assignment, the comrades who had been out there for months, confirmed this to me. This was also confirmed to me in the reports which I read, also from the spheres from other Einsatzgruppen, and I must say quite frankly I made my own experience in the assignment, and in the Crimea there were particularly those. Detailed investigations were made during the months while we were in one place and we made them conscientiously and very carefully. In the Crimea about five or five and a half percent of the entire population were Jews. Our investigations showed that the leadership of the communist party and also the state administration of the authonomic republic on the average was held by Eastern Jews, from 50 to 80 or 90 percent. And according to this they shared in the fight which was being carried out in the rear of the German troops, destruction battalions and elimination battalions, sabotage troops, agents and information service, partisan warfare, and many other things. We realized again and again that apart from communist functionaries who purposefully had been left behind and were assigned to a decisive degree, these Jews in the Crimea took a decisive part in this. and played the active part which you have indicated, then they were definitely enemies and dangerous enemies of the Reich, weren't they?
A Yes, Your Honor. I could not say anything different. dispose of them, didn't you? enemies of the Reich, but they were decisive bearers of a fight which I believe no army can take.
Q Yes. Well then, it was entirely in order to fight this enemy in every way possible, wasn't it? personally saw there in practice, made me realize a little more why Hitler had given this order, but my inner rejection and my conviction that it was not quite right was not changed in a decisive manner because of this. I agree that to a certain degree I could understand this because of the situation, but my basic opinion was not changed on account of this. were defending your country, and you were in the field, and you were fighting the enemy, and you say that you knew that the Jews were your most implacable foe, that they carried the banner of Bolshevism, that they assisted in partisan activity, that they were saboteurs, that they formed private destruction battalions, well, with all that you should certainly have no hesitancy in fighting them, should you?
A Your Honor, the order went further. The order was not only given for the individual leader of a battalion or some individual saboteur, but Adolf Hitler drew the conclusion that it was necessary that all the Jew be exterminated. the Jews should be eliminated? humane point of view entirely and also that I considered it wrong.
felt that you had to obey the order?
A Yes, Your Honor. In that situation in which I was during these events in the East I believed that I had to carry out the order of the supreme commander, and I saw no possibility of evading it.
PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Mayer, please.
Q (By Dr. Mayer) Did you know that Hitler had given these orders already before the Eastern campaign? already announced in Pretzsch but I can imagine that it was issued already at the time, because Adolf Hitler, as supreme commander, realized fully in what form this fighting in the East would be taking place.
Q In your opinion, how could Hitler know this beforehand? example, ever since the Bolshevist revolution, was conducted by the Bolshevists as a considerable part of its warfare. Already in peace time the Bolshevist Army and the people had been prepared to conduct such a manner of fighting. I would like to say it was the highest maxim that one held the opinion that in a war, men and women, children and old men have to help to fight behind the front and at the front and to fight the enemy wherever they can. I believe that documents have been submitted or will be submitted which will confirm this opinion, as said by Lenin or at least by Stalin and I believe we also have documents which show that after the end of the war Bolshevist leader announced with great pride that they had conducted the fighting in that manner. I have read documents where they emphasized proudly that it was like this in the rear territory of the enemy that no soldier knew whether the farmer's wife or the farmer, who was working in the field, did not carry a weapon under their clothes. BY THE PRESIDENT: children were aiding in this partisan warfare and were assisting the cause of the enemy? this. as war is fought?
who opposed us with weapons or with poison or with intelligence service or by any other means, by dynamite in the most horrible manner, I would lie if I would say here that I felt any great hesitancy about this, but I have pointed out before that the order went further. It wasn't said kill the Jews or the Jewesses when you catch him or her in the act, but this was not mentioned in the order, but the order said to kill all of them without proving any actual individual guilt, and that is the tremendousness and the great difficulty in this task. cause? Did you believe that all Jews helped that cause? the possibility that there were people who were not interested in politics. Bolshevist cause? majority of the Jews? Communist actually meant in the rear of the Army. In fact, he wasn't a human being who simply kept his own opinion to himself, but according to the Communist education and upbringing, the natural result of his conviction was to take part actively in this fight wherever he could.
Q Well, that's what I said. You believe that the vast majority of the Jews supported Bolshevism and therefore you believed it was proper to fight the vast majority of the Jews? agree with the order which said, without examination, from the very start, every Jew should be killed.
before you executed the individual?
A I don't know whether I should actually formulate it like that, Your Honor, whether one could have solved the question to a certain degree by interning them, but here again, I can only repeat what I said yesterday, what the real motives were to cause this man to give the order and why he considered it necessary, that is beyond me. ing Bolshevism and therefore were opposing your forces could you have conducted an investigation before you executed particular group to find out if these individuals had actually supported the Bolshevist cause.
A Your Honor, I don't know whether this would have been possible practically and technically, but the difficulty of our situation arises from the fact that we did not have that right but our order was that they were to be shot and that they were considered to be a danger from the start and therefore we could not have used our own judgment to make any such examination or investigation. summary investigation before you executed any particular group? excellent interrogating officials and criminal officials, and if these had examined the cases for weeks, for months, down to the last detail, if I had called witnesses and all that, certainly the impression one would have gotten was that not a small percentage of these Jews were active in some form or other in resisting in the rear territory of the German Army, but that was the very reason why we were told right from the start this order is to be carried out without examinations. any way, so therefore an investigation would not have added anything to your conclusion? results of examinations. Only actual practice could have shown this because the question always remains open for one, how many people could one prove to be guilty and how many people could one not prove to be guilty.
One cannot make a general statement here, Your Honor.
Q Well, you conducted some investigations didn't you when you executed a saboteur; you had someone who would indicate that the saboteur had actually committed sabotage, assuming that he was not a Jew? Jews were active as saboteurs, there also investigations were carried out. active in the Communist cause?
A Your Honor, I cannot talk of percentages here. I tried to express it as clearly as possible. knew it; when I asked you that question, you said there was no doubt about your belief, but you know it as a fact that the vast majority of Jews were active with the Communist Party. Is that true or not true?
A Your Honor, I don't think I said that the vast majority was active, but that the vast majority was in favor of Bolshevism and I also said that our experience was there that the convinced Communists who remained in the rear territory of the enemy-- most of the people always escaped-they remained and were active in some way, but we never definitely insisted that the great majority actually was active.
Q Very well. If you conclude that the vast majority were in favor of Bolshevism, it necessarily follows that only a small minority did not approve of Bolshevism, is that right? 30%.
Q Well, all right. Let's say 30%. 30% did not approve of Bolshevism. It would not be unreasonable to come to that conclusion?
A Not approved, Your Honor? I would doubt that, but, as I said before, surely there were a number of people who never cared one way or another.
approve of Bolshevism among the Jews and those who did not. You say the vast majority did, would you say that is 70%?
Q Well, let it remain the majority. The majority then did approve of Bolshevism?
A There is something between pro and anti. Somebody can be convinced and fanatical and prepared to fight to the bitter end and somebody can approve, but say, "I don't want to have anything to do with fighting," and somebody can be indifferent. Somebody can doubt and not be sure and somebody can conscientiously oppose it.
Q Well, let's group them together just for the purposes of discussion . The vast majority approved. Let us say that is 60%., That is not quite as strong as vast majority, but it is a majority; 60% that leaves 40% who either did not approve or were indifferent. That would be a just way of dividing it, wouldn't it? to follow an example.
Q Yes,well, you say the vast majority. Let's say that is 60%, to be on the safe side, did actually approve of Bolshevism, then 40%, we are speaking of Jews all the time, either did not approve or either were absolutely indifferent either one way or the other. Now, when it came to executing a group, if you had excluded 40% from the execution order, would that have caused any great difficulty?
A Your Honor, there was not choice for me. I was in a war under martial law. I had an order from the supreme commander to shoot all Jews for the reasons given to us and it was not possible for me except to obey this order in war under martial law.
Q Well, let's suppose that you had a way of determining that these 40% were not active Communists, couldn't you have found a way not to execute them?
