DR. MAYER:Your Honor, I have finished with this question now.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
DR. MAYER:And I shall give a small excerpt in the document book.
THE WITNESS:May I explain something further on this? I do have the newspaper cutting in front of me, but I may assure you that what I said was from my memory after I read this newspaper cutting a few days ago.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
Q (By Dr. Mayer) To conclude this complex of questions connections with your assignment in the East, I would like to ask you, Witness, how long you worked in the Crimea?
AUntil the end of July, 1942, I was in the Crimea. I was then attached to the First Armored Army. I joined it in the area of Rostov. From there I advanced, together with my commando, and in the second half of August I reached Maikop in the northern part of the Caucasus, but already after a few days I was recalled from there. This recall had already been issued in July, but owing to this advance it only reached me at this time.
QWhen did you return to the Reich?
AMy subkommando leader, Sturmbannfuehrer Schulz, was made my successor. At the end of August I handed the commando over to him, and in the last days of August, as far as I remember, I travelled to Vorosilov. I informed Einsatzgruppen Chief Vierkamp that I was going to the Reich. I had to wait for the plane for a few days and then traveled by plane via Nikolaev, Bucharest, Belgrade, Vienna, Berlin back to the Reich.
QWhat did you do after you returned to Germany?
AAfter my return I first took the leave to which I was entitled, which amounted to four to five weeks. Then in the second half of October I took over the State Police Office at Halle again for a short period.
QWhen were you appointed into the Reich Leader Corps of students, and how did this come about?
AAt the end of November or in the first days of January, 1942, the Reich student leader, Dr. Scheele, at the time called me to see him in Salzburg and informed me that I had leave to join his office. I was to be put in charge of the German Academic Exchange Service, and also was to become honorary chief of the Foreign office of the Reich Students Association.
QYou were also prepared to take up this appointment?
AYes, I was very pleased to take this appointment, because they were matters which had always interested me very much.
QHow did it come about that you were given this new task?
ASoon afterwards I heard that Herr Ohlendorf had suggested me for this position, just because he knew that I was interested in students and high school problems in particular in other words, that he recommended me.
QWhat tasks did you have in the German Academic Exchange Service?
AThe German Academic Exchange Service was a registered association and had the task to take care of an exchange of students, teachers and professors with other people abroad.
QWhat were your tasks in the Reich Student Association?
AMy office had several departments. First of all it was my task to look after the relations between the student association in other countries and the cooperation with them, the cultural political cooperation, the care of the foreign students studying in Germany.
Even in 1943 and 1944 we had about eight thousand foreign students in the Reich. This was my main task during those two years, the cooperation and the care for these foreign students. Beyond that, we looked after German students who had been injured during the war so that they could study abroad, in as far as this was possible, in spite of the war. Apart from that, in the German Academic Exchange Service it was my task to administer all the means and the financial department of the Studienwerk fuer Auslaender, a student association for students abroad. It gave scholarships to about 2000 foreign students per year. This amounted to about two to three millions. The Exchange Service also gave such exchange scholarships for German students who wanted to go abroad and study there.
QWere lecture evenings also arranged?
AAs part of the care of the foreign students in the Reich, everything was done that was possible to be done during the war. The cooperation was very close in spite of the war. In most German high schools I still started German Foreign Student Associations. They were particularly keen on cooperation, and part of this work was cultural evenings, lecture evenings, musical evenings. Inspection trips, etc., were carried out by them, and sightseeing trips. One of the nicest tasks I remember was looking after about two or three thousand French students. These French students, through a law by their Government, had to do labor service and had been sent to Germany for that purpose. Of course, they were very bitter about being called up to do this. Many of them had been sent to locations where they had to do work which was not in line with their training and their interest.
Here, for once, I saw an opportunity to bring the academic youth of Germany and France closer together in spite of the war. Everywhere I appointed or had suitable German students appointed to visit these French students wherever they worked, and after getting over their first distress they really were in very close and friendly contact. I saw to it that these students were given positions which suited their ability and their interests. As far as possible we got literature for them, newspapers and periodicals. We invited them to our entertainments. We tried to get leave for them to attend and in 1944 I finally even succeeded to get a number of the students to study in German universities and to be released for this purpose.
QWhy did this work finish in the winter of 1944?
AThe events of the war brought about conditions which made this work senseless. The enemy was on the borders of the Reich. The communications with other countries had been cut off, and in the Reich there was no room for such activity.
QWhen did Kaltenbrunner send you to Norway?
AIn December 1944, Kaltenbrunner sent me to Norway as commander of the Security Police and the SD in Oslo, and Kaltenbrunner ordered me to go there. In the middle of January, 1945, I left for Oslo.
QThere you were commander of the Security Police and the SD?
AYes, I said so.
QHow long were you in Norway then?
AI remained in Norway as commander until the capitulation, and then as a prisoner until 1 July 1947.
QIn Norway did they start proceedings against you?
AYes, for two years they conducted proceedings against me. For about fifteen months I was in a single cell. At the end of March, 1947, after twenty-one months, for the first time the Norwegian police interrogated me. Shortly afterwards the interrogation officer told me, it was suggested to the prosecution that they should stop proceedings against me. The proceedings were discontinued, and in the middle of June '47, after two years of imprisonment, I was transferred to an internment camp.
QThey kept you in prison for about two years in order to find out that there was nothing against you?
AYes, that is how it is.
DR. MAYER:Your Honor, this concludes my direct examination with this witness. I have no further questions to address to him. On this occasion I would like to thank the Tribunal very sincerely for giving me opportunity to carry out the questioning of the witness to such an extent.
THE PRESIDENT:And I want too to congratulate you on the very systematic manner in which you disposed of the direct examination. Do any defense counsel desire to crossexamine the witness?
DR. GAWLIK:Dr. Gawlik for Seibert.
EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
QWitness, do you know the co-defendant Seibert?
AYes, I know him since he joined the SD in Berlin.
QWhen did this happen?
AThat must have been in 1935, but it might have been in 1936. After all these years I am not quite sure of it any more.
QWhat do you know about the activity of Herr Seibert in Russia?
AI saw him there again when I came to Einsatzgruppe D. At the time Seibert was in charge of Department III in the reporting section, and already at that time had close contact with the Army.
QDid Herr Seibert ever give any orders for executive tasks?
AAs far as I remember Herr Seibert never gave any orders for executive tasks. Seibert had nothing to do with executive tasks.
QThe question was, did Seibert ever give such orders to you. Next question, during your work as commando leader, did Herr Seibert ever inspect an execution by your commando?
ANo, I did not personally observe that. During the executions in Simferopol in December, 1941, Herr Seibert was on leave. Apart from that I never heard anything of the kind, that he ever inspected executions.
QYou just talked about Herr Seibert's leave in December '41. Do you know how long Herr Seibert was on leave at the time?
AWhen he left I do not know. I only remember that he had already gone when I arrived in the Crimea at the end of November. His return however I remember very well.
QWhen was this?
AThat was on Christmas Eve 1941. Seibert was Father Christmas to us at the time. He brought us parcels and letters from home. He came right into our Christmas celebrations.
DR. GAWLIK:Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. KOESSL:Dr. Koessl for Schubert.
EXAMINATION BY DR. KOESSL:
QIn Document Book I, English Page 108, German, Page 141, there is a document, NO_3055, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 28. It is the affidavit by Schubert of 24 February 1947. Witness, do you know this affidavit?
AYes, I have read this affidavit in the document books and I now have it in front of me.
QThe execution in Simferopol is not the same as the one mentioned by you in the direct examination?
AYes, it is the same one.
QThe statements by Schubert in this affidavit about his order and his activity during the execution, do they conform with the facts as far as you know?
AI did not meet Schubert himself on the spot there, but to be quite honest, I was surprised when I read this affidavit. At the moment I cannot find the place, but I think at one place Schubert even says that the execution, the place of execution was a bit remote, and could not be seen from outside.
QIt is Page 2 of the original.
AOh, yes, I have found it now. It says here, I quote: "to see that the location of the shooting be remote enough." I don't understand this because when Schubert went out there the place Of execution was fixed already and the execution was carried out. There was nothing to be inspected or arrange that this place be remote because this place was already fixed and determined, and Herr Schubert could not change this. But also the rest of the contents.... I already said I did not meet Schubert on the place there. Only when I went out there with Herr Ohlendorf, or late in the afternoon or evening I heard from Herr Ohlendorf that he had sent Schubert out as well in order to see whether everything had been carried out according to the directives given by him.
On the place out there, I saw this myself, was a subkommando leader, a Sturmbannfuehrer, there was the Chief of Police, another captain, and then, I still remember, another Hauptsturmfuehrer who was out there. All these were people who had higher positions and higher ranks than Schubert. I do not understand, therefore, why he should say here and explain it in a way as if he was the head of everything, as if he was in charge of everything.
QCould Schubert give instructions to the leaders mentioned?
AAccording to his position and his rank, I consider this quite impossible. I am convinced that if Herr Schubert had tried to give orders to the Sturmbannfuehrer or the two captains, that it would have been pointed out that he was of lower rank.
QWhat tasks did Schubert have on that day as far as you know?
AAccording to how I understood Herr Ohlendorf at the time, he had no other tasks except to see to it on the place that the directives given by Herr Ohlendorf were complied with. I did not understand it to mean at the time that Schubert had been given special instructions to interfere with the actual event.
QAs far as you know, would your subleaders have agreed if Schubert had taken a hand?
AAs I said already, the leaders certainly would not, but, of course, if he made some arrangements for the guarding and some guard would not do his duty, he could have said, "You must do your duty here." In that way he could do it, yes, but on the actual place several leaders who had superior ranks to Schubert were present and they were in charge there.
QDid Schubert in any way, take part in the preparation and the carrying out of the executions?
ANoo Schubert had nothing to do with this. He was adjutant and pay master of the corps and had nothing to do with the actual tasks of a subkommando.
DR. KOESSL:Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Does any other defense counsel desire to crossexamine the witness?
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT:If not, Mr. Walton will proceed with the crossexamination on behalf of the prosecution.
CROSS_EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTON:
QDr. Braune, it is true, is it not, that you joined the SD voluntarily?
AYes, I joined the SD voluntarily.
QAnd that was in 1934, was it not?
AIt was exactly on 18 November, 1934.
QIs it not further true that as a result of this voluntary entry into the SD you became a member of the SS?
AI already said this in my direct examination. By joining the SD I became a member of the SS special formation called SD.
QNow as an old National Socialist and an SA man you, of course, knew that when you entered the SD you, as a matter of course, became at the same time a member of the SS, did you not?
AYes, I can only repeat what I said before; I became part of the special formation of the SS which was called SD.
QYou knew that would happen before you ever went into the SD, didn't you?
AOf course I knew that.
QNow, the Defendant Biberstein testified here that the SS was known in 1936 as the most ideal and most unselfish representative of National Socialism and was highly regarded by the population. May we assume that you also were of this opinion?
AYes, I had the same opinion, Mr. Prosecutor.
QHave you, between 1934 and 1945, changed your opinion about the SS?
AI can only talk about the field where I was active myself, and from my own knowledge I have no reason to change this opinion basically at all.
I believe that in the last years before the end of the war many people would have liked to join the SS and become SS leaders who don't want to have anything to do with it now.
QIt is further true, is it not, that when the suggestion was made to you that you should have yourself appointed to a position in the Gestapo in order that your salary might be paid by the Gestapo, you agreed to this suggestion, did you not?
AI believe, Mr. Prosecutor, I have explained this in my direct examination in all detail and cannot add anything further to this.
QWell, you can at least answer this question. If it is true you can say it is true. If it is not you can deny it. You agreed to the suggestion, didn't you?
AI explained under what certain promises and assurances I agreed to this purely formal solution.
QWhen Dr. Best requested you to serve actually in the Gestapo in '38, you would have been at liberty to quit, would you not?
AMr. Prosecutor, I was not asked at the time. It was anything but a request in the situation in which I was.
QYou could have withdrawn from the Gestapo and the SD in 1938, could you not?
AMr. Prosecutor, it wasn't as simple as all that. I believe in this Tribunal it has been quoted once before, that already in peace time Heydrich said, "The road away from us leads via the concentration camp." I explained in detail how the situation was for me. At the time after I had become an official formally, of course, I had to accept this order. In what manner I accepted it and how I carried it out I explained here and it is quite clear I did everything that was in my power at the time in order to be able to return to the SD work and I would like to assure you I would not have been sorry if, according to these attempts, they had released me again from being an official, but the financial situation in the SD at the time was such that one attached greatest importance to my saving the SD from paying me.
QWhen were you removed from the membership rolls of the Gestapo?
AI didn't quite understand the question.
QIn 1938, according to your own testimony, you entered upon Gestapo duties; is that correct?
AI already said that was in the fall of 1937 when, according to definite promises
QAll right, 1937 you entered you entered upon your Gestapo duties?
ABut I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that one cannot separate the reasons from these facts. It would give entirely the wrong impression. I said what my opinion was, and I said because of which promises I joined the State Police, and must.....
QIt has been said on the regard several times, witness, and we are perfectly familiar with it. I merely want to establish the fact that in 1937 or 1938 you entered upon your Gestapo duties.
Now, you had further testified that upon your return from Russia you went back to the State Police office in Halle; is that correct?
AYes. But I also said
QNow, I would like to know if you still were a member of the Gestapo when you went to Norway?
AOf course, I still worked for the State Police from joining it until the end of the war.
QThat's what I wanted to know.
AI wish to correct one thing, Mr. Prosecutor, I had forgotten at the moment that during the two years when I was in the Reich Student Association I was not.
QAll right. Then I would like to know when your name came off the membership rolls of the Gestapo. That's what I asked you.
ANo, I was given leave at the time.
QOh, I see.
AAnd neither did an service nor did I carry out any functions.
QAfter the Gestapo made their complaint against you, did you continue to neglect your duties in Gestapo matters intentionally?
AI continued to neglect it and the result was that I was transferred.
QWell, how was it that in less than a year you were made the deputy chief of the Gestapo office at Coblenz?
AI already explained that not after two years, but only after three and a half years I was made government councilor, Regierungsrat, but when I had been appointed Regierungsrat, government councilor, I was bound to get an office. Except for the very large offices in Berlin where it might have been that a government councilor was only a deputy. I do not think there was an office throughout the Reich where this could happen.
QAfter you entered on your Gestapo duties, isn't it true that in less than a year you were made deputy chief, regardless of your rank, in the Gestapo office at Coblenz?
AI can only say that this rank cannot be segregated here. As government assessor, I could only become a deputy in a place like Coblenz.
QThen a year later you became Gestapo chief at Wesermuende where you remained for about a year, did you not?
AYes, for one year I was chief of the State Police office in Wesermuende.
QAnd then you became chief of the Gestapo at Halle. Now, which is the larger Gestapo office, the one a Wesermuende or the one at Halle?
AThe one in Halle is larger. They had more offials. Whether the territory was larger or smaller, I don't know at the moment.
QNow, do you think that you would have been given more and more responsibility if you had continued to neglect your Gestapo duties in favor of your SD work?
AMr. Prosecutor, after I had been given this responsible position during the war as an official, I considered it my duty to do my duty in this position as well.
QAnd you performed your duties as a Gestapo official to the very best of your ability; is that true?
AThere was no other choice for me, Mr Prosecutor, during the war.
QWell, isn't it true that each transfer in the Gestapo service from 1939 to October, 1941 in reality was a promotion for you even though not a promotion in rank?
ATo be quite honest, after having been in the SD main office as a Standartenfuehrer which became a Brigadefuehrer office, after 1939, the development in the State Police which did not advance me any further than to an Obersturmfuehrer, I did not consider an advantage.
QAll right, Doctor, let's consider your statement made not under oath, which is in document book 3_D, page 54 of the English, page 94 or the German, and is document NO-4234, prosecution's exhibit 163.
Now, Doctor, you state in October, 1941 that you were detailed for service in Einsatzgruppe D?
AYes, that is right. I said that in the first days of October I received the decree from Berlin.
QNow let's consider, in connection with your statement, your service record which is in document book 3-D, that same book, and. which is on page 64 of the English, 106 of the German and is document NO-3249, prosecution's exhibit 166. Now, on page 67, your Honors, and on page 111 of the German, almost at the bottom of the page it says in this service record, from September 1941 until July 1942 he was assigned to Einsatzgruppe D and was a Kommandofuehrer. Now, your service record then is at variance with your statement, or what I would like to know now, which is the correct statement of fact; that you were a Kommandofuehrer from November of '41 or from September of '41 as stated in your service record?
AI believe I already explained this during the direct examination. It says here from September '41 until July '42. The author of this promotion, recommendation by promotion, had decrees in his files like this. My actual order to go into the assignment and my recall from the assignment are shown here. It is quite possible and it is nothing exceptional that the order into the assignment was given at the end of September. I can only assure you again that on 18 October I left Berlin. I believe my document book, Mr. Prosecutor, will contain the original document according to which, on 17 October in Berlin, I was given the order to move, and the trip ticket was given to my driver and myself so I could not have left before the 18th. I also explained that I was in Nikolajew first and that at the beginning of November I went to Odessa and exactly on 10 November was put in charge of the Kommando. This will become obvious and clear when I add that I certainly have no reason to extend my assignment six weeks longer. I said that at the end of August I handed over a Kommando and returned at the end of October.
It says in these files here, July '42. It can be shown but there is a difference between the document and the actually starting service which is six weeks, but this time also exists when I finished with my assignment.
QAll right. On your service record which we are considering in connection with your statement on page 66 of the English in document book 3_D, and on page 109 of the German, it shows that in 1939 on the 20th of April you were promoted to SS_Sturmbannfuehrer. Is that correct?
AYes, that is right.
QAnd by the time that October, 1941, had come it had been over two years since you had had a promotion, even in wartime; is that not correct?
AYes.
QNow, you knew, as the defendant Blume has already testified, that you would never be promoted further unless you had had foreign service with troops, did you not?
AI would only have been promoted if I had done service with the troops abroad, foreign service? No, I cannot confirm this as an exclusive fact. I am sure that a great number of promotions were made although the individuals had not been assigned.
QDoes it occur to you that promotion in your own case was a little slow? You testified that you had done your duty as best you could, and here it is over two years in wartime and you were not promoted. For that reason were you not willing to take service in Russia or any foreign service to see if it wouldn't speed up your promotion?
AMr. Prosecutor, it is an error if you presume that holding the rank which I had and my age, I should have been promoted every year. There were very few exceptions, but I believe those were exceptional people. I did not consider my promotion to Obersturmbannfuehrer after four or five years between being a Sturnbannfuehrer and an Obersturm bannfuehrer was nothing exceptional, and I can only assure you that at the time when I was sent to the assignment I really did not think of promotion.
QYou were also a two-fold expert, both in Gestapo and SD matters, were you not, at the time of your assignment to Russian territory?
AI know the SD tasks very well when I was sent to the assignment, and I knew my tasks as chief of a state police office when I joined the assignment, yes.
QDo you believe that you would have received an assignment to an Einsatzgruppe unless you had been familiar with the SD and Gestapo matters or in either of these spheres of activity?
AMr. Prosecutor, this is a hypothetical question. What might have happened to a person in the war, I really cannot say now. I don't know whether fate would have given me such a task if I had not belonged to the State Police at the time.
QIt's been repeatedly testified here that certain members of Einsatzgruppes attempted to get out and join the Wehrmacht. Now, I ask you essentially the sane question. Do you believe that you would have been assigned to an Einsatzgruppe unless you had been familiar with the tasks of the State Police or the Gestapo and the SD?
AMr. Prosecutor, you refer to my Army service I must tell you unfortunately that my state of health was such that I could not have become a soldier. I was examined repeatedly and every time I was found not suitable for military service. May I explain it in one sentence? I have two serious defects in the shoulder joints.
QThere is very little difference between the service which you rendered a Kommandofuehrer and a comparable rank in the Wehrmacht. You had plenty of hard work to do while you were in Russia, did you not?
AI don't know what you consider hard work. Mr. Prosecutor. In any case with my state of health I was able to carry out this task, but to give an example, I could not throw hand grenades or overcome obstacles because my shoulder joints easily became dislocated.
QYour comparable rank with that in the Wehrmacht was that of a Major, was it not?
AIf one wants to compare this, I think this comparison is poor -one could compare it to a Major.
QMajors in the Wehrmacht did not throw many hand grenades, did they?
AMr. Prosecutor, I don't know whether you have been a soldier, but I believe that the war would have been quite different to what you imagine it.
QWhen and where did you first learn of the Fuehrer order?
AI explained this in detail here already, Mr. Prosecutor.
QWell, tell us again.
AI heard about it in the first place when I was in Nikolajew and it wasmy task to gather information about my task.
QYou have stated here that you rejected this Fuehrer order for humanitarian reasons, but that you considered it your duty to carry out the order as it was an order of your supreme commander; is that correct?
AYes, that is how it is, if you add that for me there was no other possibility in the situation in which I was.
QIt is further true, is it not, that you never tried to persuade General Ohlendorf to release you from your assignment as you were sure that he would have refused you?
AI testified that I considered it pointless and therefore I did not do it.
QAnd that you did nothing in order to be released from your assignment with an Einsatzgruppe; is that correct?
AMr. Prosecutor, please tell me what I should have done. I don't know what I should have done.
QIn other words, you are unable to tell the Tribunal that you ever did anything to be relieved from the assignment that forced you to carry out an order of which you disapproved?
AI did not do anything because I could not do anything.
QWhat type of force was used in order to compel you to obey the Fuehrer order?
AI believe I have already given explanations about this, about what force would have been used if I had disobeyed it.
QThat's not what I asked you. I asked you what force was used in order to get you to carry it out? was there any force used?
AI said that the refusal to obey would have meant my end. I I believe it has been said very often during this trial.
QIf I understood your direct testimony correctly, nobody used any force. You didn't try to get away from it. The order was given to you and you carried it out and you communicated to no one your reluctance and your revulsion to carry out this order. You only acted because you were convinced that you had to obey orders issued by your supreme commander; is that correct?
AThese are several questions you mention now, Mr. Prosecutor, about the first question I can only say that there is a very effective power which can be used not in a physical sense. I don't know what should threaten a person more than the fact that he can lose his life. On the second point I can only say that an assumption by you. I believe, there is no doubt what my attitude was to the order and how difficult it was for no to carry it out.
QYou have further explained that the killings which were ordered by Hitler were not aimed to the extermination of the Jews as a race, but were security measures which were necessary as the Jews were the most active and powerful part of the Communists; have you not?
AThat wasmy conviction at the time and still is now.
QDoes it make any difference in your opinion whether one person or a number of persons are killed for security reasons or racial inferiority reasons?
AFor me there is a great difference whether, during the war at the front as a soldier, they give me theorder to shoot somebody because it is essential for the war, or whether one tells no without any reasons that people are to be killed arbitrarily.
QWell, wouldthe killing of people for security reasons, that is, for the purpose of preventing acts which they eventually would carry out in the future, be less criminal than the killing of the same person for reasons that they were members of an inferior race?
AI did not quite understand the question, Mr. Prosecutor. May I have it again?
QYes. Would not the killing of people for security reasons, that is, for the purpose of preventing acts which they would carry out eventually in the future, be less criminal than the killing of the same persons for the reasons that they were members of an inferior race?
AMr. Prosecutor, durin this war millions of people were killed and one cannot say that they constituted an immediate danger. They were killed at the order of the supreme commanders of the state or the supreme war commanders, and I already said that I do not assume the right to judge this as being criminal.
QWell, were most of the people killed by your Kommando guilty of crimes?
AMr. Prosecutor, I can only reply again they were not guilty of any crimes any more than hundreds of thousands of German women and children who were killed by bombs. They were just as guilty and just as innocent. In both cases I start from the assumption that the responsible men gave these orders because they considered it necessary in order to attain their end for the war.
QThen you are attempting to tell us that some people were shot by your Kommando without their casesbeing investigated as to whether they had committed any acts against the German Reich or not?