BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Then as I understand your testimony, it was not the position which a man might hold in the Communist Party which made him a security threat, but the task he had before him, after the occupation by the German authorities, or the German forces, which made him a threat, is that correct?
A. I should like to emphasize that the Fuehrer Order was intended to have the Communist functionaries, in the meaning in which I described them just now, in my conviction, because it was known what part those functionaries played at the rear of the German Army. What we saw in actual practice was what I have just described. I never heard of one case, and I never saw one case, but where a man had not played an active part.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the original question of Mr. Walton's remained unanswered, not through any fault of yours, witness, but since we have now clarified what was meant by the answer to the question, suppose we have an answer to it. What he wants to know is, down to what level were the Communist functionaries considered dangerous. The difficulty with the question was that Mr. Walton apparently was thinking along political lines, and you corrected him, properly on that, insofar as the Fuehrer Order was concerned. Now, let's have an answer to that question, keeping in mind the correction and the clarification, which you have so well given us.
A. I should like to answer the question as follows, your Honor: The Communist functionaries were all those persons who had any leading function within the Communist Party, either they fled, or they remained behind to carry out a mission.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is answered. Proceed Mr. Walton.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Doctor, let me direct your attention to Document Book III-D. page 58 of the English, and page 98 of the German, Document NOKW-1863, which is Prosecution's Exhibit no. 164, Your counsel questioned you on this document, but in the transcript of the record I read, a few questions were not answered, I would like to put a few of those to you. Who signed this document?
A. I signed the document as you can see from the document.
Q. Now you have said in direct examination that this was purely a military measure. If this is so, why were you selected as a commander or the whole operation?
A. It is impossible for me to repeat all the terms which I used in those two days. What I can say, and what I believe I did say, after I had given detailed explanations, was that this was a definite order from the Wehrmacht, which was an order issued in a given certain situation, and that in that situation it referred to the communication of the Barbarossa order, which had been quoted, that is to any, for tactical reasons the Wehrmacht could issue orders at any time, and as I have said, that was the situation which we were faced with in those days in January.
All commandos and all men were under the immediate orders of the Wehrmacht. Strong points were built. Defense installations were built. The entire intelligence service was organizaed so as to meet the plans of the partisans. The men were committed for action as in Feodosia and *upatoria, and in that extremely precarious situation, not to call it a hopeless istuation, we received that order from the Wehrmacht. I further testified that it was the Wehrmacht which dealt with the practical carrying out of the measures, and I told you that approximately 2500 soldiers were committed not quite 50 of our men, and finally all six districts through which fighting went, as you can see on Page 2 of this document that is Page 1 of the original - that all that was carried out under the orders of officers of the Wehrmacht.
Q Well, let's come back. How was it that you were selected to command the whole operation? Did the Army select you or did General Ohlendorf select you to command the whole operation?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the document shows, I do not believe that I could ever have sent an order to the Army as you can tell from the last page, distribution, AOK 11, 1*Qu. I should think that is supposed to be O - Qu there, where I write "By order of AOK". If, in fact, such an order had not been issued, I believe in that case the Army would have had something too to say to me, if I had arrogated that right to myself. Command of AOK 11 addressed to you to command the operation, or did it come to the Chief of Einsatzgruppe D, and the Chief of Einsatzgruppe D said, "Dr. Braune, you have to carry out this order of the Army High Command." Which happened?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you for certain now, whether that order first went to the Einsatzgruppe and then to me, but I believe in the situation in which we found ourselves at the time that order must have gone direct to me, and I had to obey it.
which at that time was in this particular place? divisions here or table organization shows that there was presentation each one of the districts of the city one leader of the Security Police and the SD, if this operation in the districts was under the command of an Army officer? the measures just as the 350 members of the Armed forces in that area which are mentioned there. in officer class? I did not have six leaders under my command in Simferopol. Maybe others were involved as well. This altogether shows that it says leaders here because that was what the O. Qu had laid down, but perhaps one of them was a Haupscharfuehrer or Sturmscharfuehrer, and those men, and the order makes that quite clear, were subordinate to the Wehrmacht officer in the area who is designated here as the district leasers.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton. I don't know just what your are attempting to gain from this questioning. As we understand the documents the Army High Command gave an order and he executed it, using personnel of his own or personnel furnished by the Wehrmacht. What is there more to it than that?
MR. WALTON: He has testified, sir that these districts which are shown here were under the command of the Wehrmacht. Now, I was asking him to explain the reason for one SS leader who, from experience and testimony here, an SS leader is generally of the officer class, what he was doing in these districts if it was under the command of a Wehrmacht officer? In other words, I wanted to know how far his 47 men infiltrated into the districts to carry out his orders, or the participation, the actual participation or the membership of the Einsatzgruppe 11b in the action.
That was all.
THE PRESIDENT: We understand that one of his men was in charge of each detachment, when they went into this district and executed the order.
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir: he has explained that now.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I correct one point? It wasn't that one of my men had the leadership in those districts, but as you will see from Page 2 of the document -
THE PRESIDENT: Not the district, the action, the operation.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Now I understand.
Q (By Mr. Walton) How many suspected persons were brought to the assembly points at the conclusion of this action?
A Really, Mr. Prosecutor. I can't tell you but I may assure you that the experience which I had during all those years was the same experience that we have had here. In all those large scale operations as a rule the result was nil. Two and a half thousand men were deployed, and that deployment caused such an upheaval that persons, who were really suspicious and dangerous probably had escaped to safety a long time ago and that is how I remember vaguely that this operation in effect too was a failure. assembly points for further screening?
A I cannot exclude that possibility, Mr. Prosecutor. That was our task, and if we encountered any people who constituted an acute danger in that difficult situation, in that case we arrested them. The officers did not let a man go they thought he was a partisan.
Q Were there any executions as a result of this raid?
A Mr. President, I can't tell you. All I can say is I cannot exclude the possibility. I am correct, when this document has first shown to you you told your attorney that, "I remember in detail about this action."
I don't have the transcript of the record, but I studied it very carefully. Now, I am asking you some of the details. If your memory fails in these, that is quite all right. It is your right and your privilege to testify according to your memory, but I do ask that you carefully consider your answer to see if you cannot remember the answer to some of the questions which I am asking you. Is your answer the same to the question if there were any women and children rounded up in this action? children among them. I can assure you that. We never searched for children. We screened the people who were on the streets, pedestrians. We asked them for their papers, etc. As far as I remember, in spite of the large personnel we had, it was impossible to go through every house, although it said "if possible." I can also assure you that when I said that I remember a certain thing very well. I was referring to the situation in which that action, that operation was carried out at the time. I remember the atmosphere Very well and I have given an adequate account of that atmosphere. the bottom of Page 60 of the English text of this same document. "The then," and I quote, "The then remaining persons will be taken to the transient camp 241 in trucks available for that purpose, where the Sonderkommando 11b will determine their further treatment." Did you have to determine any further treatment on any of the people which you rounded up? something of the kind, in that case I believe that my subkommando kept them under arrest and decided about them in the same manner in which they decided about other saboteurs and partisans, but I repeat once again that I can't give you any detailed definite instances.
rounded up as separate from the saboteurs and partisans?
A If there were any Jews. Mr. Prosecutor, they were shot just as the other Jews. afforded these people?
A Mr. Prosecutor I believe that it has been made adequately clear here that under the order which has been issued there was no scope to hold trials of Jews. English, Page 104 of the German. It is Document NOKW-584, which is Prosecution's Exhibit 165, and which is the official report of a certain Wehrmacht Major Riesen. You have testified on direct examination that the population of Eupatoria assisted the Russian troops, when they drove your forces out of the city, did you not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, it was a little different. Military aid given by military units would have had to be regarded as ordinary soldiers. If it had been like that the Commander in Chief of the Army would not have ordered, would not have issued that order, but prisoners of war would have been taken. But in this case franc tireurs and snipers got their weapons out of hiding and fought as franc tireurs or snipers, and two or three trucks full of German soldiers were attacked an the German soldiers had their throats cut, and the partisans dano*d around these murdered German soldiers. When a report was made to the Commander in Chief, and, in accordance with the Fuehrer Order which I have quoted, he ordered those men as Snipers, franc tireurs and partisans to be shot and -
Q I understand that. I understand that, and from your testimony of last Wednesday, but the population did assist the Russian troops which landed? That is what I asked you. all right, you can use that expression.
their troops came into the city to throw the German forces out. That is what they did, did they not?
A Mr. Prosecutor. I wasn't there. I don't know, whether the German soldiers were still fighting within the town. The Russians were getting in from the beach. They had made landings, and nobody knew what was that. The soldiers had to defend themselves everywhere. Shots were fired from the houses. Perhaps they were thrown out of the city by the regular Army. I have already pointed out that the center of the town was still occupied, when we got there on the 7th of January. There was still fighting for the town going on then, but you cannot say that the town had been taken and that after it was taken the civilians had come along and said, "Well now, we are going to fight as Russians, and how we are going to join ordinary units of the Wehrmacht, and how we are going to join in the fighting." That is not how it was.
Q Well, when these troops landed isn't that a natural action for patriotic people to rise up against, what they called the invader. to help expel him from the town, isn't that a perfectly natural action?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the reaction may be normal, but I think the natural reaction in war concerning francti**eurs and snipers has at all times been that you treat then as such. their place? that if I were caught by the enemy I would lose my head. that were murdered by the civilian population in Eupatoria?
A I can't give you the exact figure, but there were two or three trucks full of soldiers. It may be there were forty or fifty men. I can't give you the exact figure though.
Q Isn't 1184 executions as reported here a hard price to pay for the killing of forty Germans?
A Mr. Prosecutor, that is a matter of opinion. I have just now read an order, or to put it more clearly, I have read a sworn statement according to which for one killed American soldier two hundred German are to be shot. Mr. Prosecutor, not that I want to condemn that, all I want to do is to say that during this war evidently such measures were taken, and I believe it would be wrong to say that forty or fifty, twelve hundred were shot, but I understood the officer in change to be of the conviction that hardly one of these men who were able to bear arms had not taken part in that illegal fighting in one way or another. BY THE PRESIDENT:
A Your Honor, just recently. One of the last few days, but I don't know what case it was. I read through a transcript, and a German, I think he was a German officer, confirmed under oath that in April or May, 1945-
question. I asked you a very simple question. Where did you read this sworn statement?
A In the prison here. Your Honor. It was a copy from a transcript from some other tribunal, from another case. I don't know whether it was Case VI or Case VIII. Anyway, it is a trial pending here now.
Q Who gave you this transcript?
A I can't tell you just now whether it was one of my comrades who gave it to me or whether it was a defense counsel who gave it to me. I believe it was one of my comrades who gave it to me
Q Which comrade was it?
A Yes, I have remembered. Your Honor. It must have been Blobel.
Q Who?
Q And you remember Paul Blobel's testifying on this very business here in court, can't you? for having made it? Do you recall that? for having made it? Do you recall that?
A I know that Your Honor. Yes, I know that..
Q Now, do you want to go further than Blobel went? copy of a transcript. *nthfurther than Blobel did here on the witness stand in this very courtroom?
A No, Your Honor, I don't want to go further.
Q Yes, All right. Now, Blobel withdrew his statement and declared here that he was in error and apologized for the statement. You heard that, didn't you? than Blobel himself did?
A Your Honor,I should like to correct something. I did not repeat Blobel's statement.May I just repeat what I said? It was this. I read the copy of a transcript from a case which is pending here now. I said that according to that transcript -
Q I know what you said. Now, please don't take up a lot of time repeating. I heard what you said. Do you have that transcript?
A I do not have it with me. I don't know whether my comrade Blobel has it. Maybe he has.
DR. KOHR: Your Honor, perhaps I can clarify this matter. Dr. Kohr for the defendant Blobel, deputizing for Dr. Heim. that there had been an order according to which for one killed American two hundred hostages were to be taken, it is correct that the defendant Blobel had to apologize for having made that statement.
THE PRESIDENT: He didn't have to. I wish to correct you. He didn't have to apologize. He apologized voluntarily.
DR. KOHR: Yes, because he could not maintain the statement that he had actually read that himself. In the mean time from the transcript Of the case against - from the Southeast case. We have found out that a witness was examined under oath there, his name was Wollny. He was formerly a German officer, and that witness in his testimony confirmed that in a small town in Thuringia in the Harz Mountains in Horensen, he read an order according to which for one killed American two hundred Germans were to be taken as hostages. In our Document Book II we shall submit extracts from that transcript, and we shall introduce it in evidence, and it is evident that Dr. Braune has just referred to that extract from the transcript taken down in the case against the Southeast Generals. I believe that this has clarified the matter.
THE PRESIDENT: No, it hasn't clarified it at all. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q How, witness, you say that Paul Blobel handed you a transcript?
THE PRESIDENT: Now I will ask you, counsel, how did Paul Blobel get this transcript, do you know?
DR. KOHR: He got it from us.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. And when you gave him this transcript to read, did you call his attention to this particular statement which is now under discussion?
DR. KOHR: After his testimony -
THE PRESIDENT: No, before his testimony.
DR. KOHR: No, no. He only heard that it in the course of the conversation, and it has only afterwards that we found that in the Southeast case actually than have been proved.
THE PRESIDENT: Did Blobel actually have the transcript?
DR. KOHR: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Who gave him transcript?
DR. KOHR: He got it from defense counsel, Dr. Heim.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Heim then got this transcript and took it to Blobel,is that what you are telling me?
DR. KOHR: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And had Dr. Heim talk to Blobel about this particular incident before Blobel testified?
DR. KOHR: No.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the purpose of his giving this transcript to Blobel?
DR. KOHR: The purpose evidently was in order to produce evidence, to bring proof afterwards that Blobel had first of all talked about a rumor only, but that in the meantime it had been proved, that in the Southeast case against the generals that point had been corroborated by a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, you are using words -- I don't know whether the translation is coming through in accordance with what you say. You say it was proved and then corroborated and confirmed.
Now, those are very strong words, and I went to call your attention to the fact, counsel that unless you are able to establish the correctness of what you are saying that you should not use such conclusive phraseology. Now, I will ask you, since you apparently are volunteering this, de you believe, did you such an order, did you, yourself, see such an order?
DR. KOHR: No, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you cannot, say that anything was proved, can you?
DR. KOHR: No, nor do I want to do that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, let's make that clear.
DR. KOHR: And I want to clarify was that such an extract from a transcript exists. Whether the witness himself spoke the truth or not, that I cannot determine.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then please do not use the word "prove", because that suggests that judicially it has been determined and established as fact that a certain proposition is correct, and on that you can say nothing. That is true, is it not?
DR. KOHR: No, I can't. All I can do is say that a witness is the case against the generals testified to that, and beyond that I don't want to say anything. I merely believed that I had to clarify the matter because the name of the defendant Blobel had been mentioned.
THE PRESIDENT: What you clarify is simply this, that is same way it came to Blobel's attention, and you now explain that it was because a copy of a transcript was handed to him by Dr. Heim, and that in this transcript there appeared a statement made by a witness that he knew of such an alleged order. Is that correct, do I sum up your position?
DR. KOHR: Not that Bible knew of it, but merely that testimony by a witness concerning that quota of one for two hundred then exists.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, that a witness did make that statement.
DR. KOHR: Yes, that is what I wanted to say.
THE PRESIDENT: Correct. You yourself know nothing of this order.
DR. KOHR: I myself have no knowledge of the matter at that time....
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Now we will turn back to the witness. So that your information was obtained from Blobel, is that correct, or from the transcript?
THE WITNESS: Not from Blobel but from the transcript that he had given to me, and that is how I put it, your Honor. That is what I said.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, yes. And you are quoting from a statement made by a witness?
THE WITNESS: Yes, from a statement made under oath by a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, did you know this witness?
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, I cannot give any opinion about him.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Now, when you say this statement was made by him under oath, you place great stock in the statement "under oath", don't you?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can say no more but that I have read that statement made under oath and that is all I wanted to say.
THE PRESIDENT: You don't know who the man was, do you?
THE WITNESS: No, I don't, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You don't know, whether he was telling the truth or not?
THE WITNESS: I cannot exclude the possibility that he committed perjury.
THE PRESIDENT: So far as you are concerned he could be the biggest liar in the world, so far as you personally know?
THE WITNESS: Theoretically that is possible, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You do not yourself know of any such order?
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, nor did I say so.
THE PRESIDENT: No, and you never heard of such an order it all the years that you were in the armed forces when your country was at war?
THE WITNESS: No not from the West, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We just want to make it clear on the record that these statements cannot be made recklessly, and when anyone quotes a statements of that kind he must indicate the source. We do not in any way criticize the witness for what he said. He had the right to say that and to his credit he did give the source of his information. He only made one mistake in putting it in such a way as if it represented fact which, as it now develops, has not in any way been established, and he goes no further than did Blobel, who here in Court admitted that he knew nothing about any such order and because of having stated it in the way he did, he apologized.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I just add one more sentence? If I remember correctly I did not maintain that this was a fact. I merely said that I had read that testimony. that is what I said.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate your statement.
THE WITNESS: Very well, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not that you put it in those words but in the argumentation with counsel it seemed a casual observer might have got the impression that you were attempting to assert that as fact, but now it is clear, where you got this and you do not yourself assert that statement as a fact and that closes the incident you may proceed Mr. Walton.
THE WITNESS: No, I did not wish to assert that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. WALTON: One that has been told to be about what that testimony actually was. I would like to ask him two question. He said he read the transcript of the testimony. If your Honor's ruling is final that the incident is closed I will proceed on, but -
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think it is closed. The witness has very clearly stated how he happened to learn of such a rumor or statement. He knows nothing about it and has very clearly and emphatically so stated it, did not know about it during the war and does not exclude the possibility that the man who made this statement may have committed perjury.
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir Q. (By Mr. Walton) Dr. Braune, you stated on direct examination that when you, rather than the three SS leaders, but that, when you alone went to Eupatoria and you reported to the Wehrmacht Colonel, he was at a loss to understand why you were there because your presence was not needed.
Is that what he has told you?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, that referred not to my person but by that he wanted to say that a special order and a special delegate from the Army, such as Major Riesen was not required because, without such an order and without such a special delegate, he would have adopted the same measures in accordance with the situation. That did not refer to my person.
Q. Well, he, in effect, told you that your presence there was superfluous, didn't he?
A. No, that's what he said to Major Riesen, when Major Riesen told him with what orders he had got from the Commanderin-Chief. He then said in reply to Major Riesen, "In that case the Commander-in-Chief did not need to send you. I would have done that at my own initiative, for all of them are franctireurs and snipers."
Q. Well, why didn't you get in touch with your headquarters and explain the situation that your presence was more or less superfluous and ask for further directions or ask couldn't you come back to headquarters where you were needed?
A. I believe I also said that among other things it was my mission to choose from those 1500 persons who had been arrested, those people who were known to have served in the German Wehrmacht and our subkommando, and in effect I with my subkommando, I think I can say that we saved the lives of those three hundred men, for if I had not been sent along the original order from the Commander-in-Chief would have been carried out and all the men would have been shot, including those three hundred.
Q. In screening your suspects was the denunciation of your former local Russian employees sufficient to cause a suspect to be included in this 1184 selected for execution?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, that sellction was made by my subkommando leader, together with some people who knew the place -I don't know whether they were Russians or Tartars, or whether they were Volksdeutsche, ethnic Germans, people who knew their way about the place. It is possible that also people from the Wehrmacht took part, and those people found out who of the men were reliable and they selected them. I could not make any decisions, for I did not know one single one of these people. I had to rely on my men.
Q. All right. The denunciation of the people you trusted plus the decision of your subkommando leader was sufficient for their execution, wasn't it?
A. No, it was the other way around, Mr. Prosecutor. The Commander-in-Chief of the Army had ordered that those men, who had been arrested and who were fit for military service, were to be shot without exception, and now my subkommando, in spite of that order, picked out three hundred men who were not shot; that is to say, my people adopted the measure which Was a limitation comparing it with the order from the Commanderin-Chief.
My can did not have to decide in such a way that they could have said, "These 1184 men are to be shot." That was the order that had come from the Commander-in-Chief.
Q. Who gave the order to fire upon all these people, Doctor, at the place of execution?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have already pointed out that contrary to the submission of the prosecution, it was not I who gave the order to fire. I wasn't on the spot where the shootings took place. Major Riessen was in charge of the matter as he says himself on page 1. It is his own letter which indicates that this was so. It was he who gave the order to this Luftwaffe company and that is how that measure was actually carried out.
Q. Well, let me call your attention to the next to the last sentence on cage 62 of the English text, and on page 105 of the German text, which is the last paragraph, first sentence: "SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Braune gave orders on the place of execution for the carrying out of the shootings." Now, why would Major Riesen in an official resort out in anything that wasn't so?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, nothing is mentioned of an order to shoot or an order to fire. I have already attemtped to explain that phrase from what I remember, and I cannot say anymore. At the best I can point out that that was written by Major Riesen one year after the event, but I believe that it is clearly evident that he was in charge and that he, as a member of the Wehrmacht, did not allow we to take his authority away from him. In accordance with the truth I have testified here as to what I did and I cannot say anymore.
Q. And you absolutely deny that sentence as being true?
A. I have tried to give an explanation. I have said that twice I intervened.
Q. I know what you said, but I am asking you now that you deny that sentence there as being the truth? You have a right to do it if you want to.
A. In this form it is wrong. In this form it is wrong.
Q. All right. Now, how long after your arrival in Eupatoria were these people executed?
A. We left Simferopol early in the morning and around noon these men were moving through the town, and until dusk that Luftwaffe company continued carrying out the shootings.
Q. Now, the shootings occurred then within eight to ten hours after you reached Eupatoria; is that right?
A. Yes, that may be approximately right.
Q. Were you personally satisfied that every one of these people was actually guilty of killing or of shooting at German soldiers?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I can merely repeat, it was an extremely dangerous situation, and for the whole Army it was a question of to be or not to be. The Commander-in-Chief of the Army, Field Marshal von Manstein, issued that order on the basis of the Fuehrer order which I have quoted. He had the excutive authority in this military area, and he considered this measure necessary and therefore ordered it.
Q. Doctor, I am not asking you about the reasons. I asked you if you personally were satisfied that every one of these people was actually guilty of killing or at least shooting at German soldiers?
A. That was not my order, Mr. Prosecutor, not did I have any possibility. The Wehrmacht would have told me something quite different, if at that highly critical moment I had said, "Now, let's have some investigation for a few weeks."
It was not left to my discretion to do such a thing. I believe Major Riesen would have said to me. "Well, how does it come that that's your business?" It was a very critical situation and I, talking for Major Riesen, have to carry out orders.
Q. You still haven't answered the question. Did you have any thoughts about the guilt of these people or did you fail to think about whether they were guilty or not? I wont to know if you were personally satisfied that they were all guilty?
A. Well, according to the information I had at the time I was convinced that the whole lot of them had engaged in illegal activities and that the Commander-in-Chief of the Army was carrying out a Fuehrer order.
Q. And you thought they were all guilty, didn't you?
A. I can only say again theoretically there was a possibility that among them there was some people, who had not participated in murdering the German soldiers, or who had not participated in sniping activities.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Walton, would you care to defer your further questions until after the recess?
(A recess was taken.)