MR. WALTON: The prosecution has no further questions at this time. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, do we understand by what you just said that you didn't mention any figures at all to the the interrogating official in Oslo?
A I replied to Sgt. Lessing questions, "Well Mr. Braune, how many were there approximately?" I answered, "Well, Sgt. Lessing, I cannot give you a figure. 100 to 200 may be just as wrong as 1,000 to 2,000." That was my reply and he was satisfied.
Q We didn't understand that the illustration which you gives us here was a more repetition of the illustration you had given to the interrogating official. Witness, you participated in the actions against the partisans in the Crimea didn't you?
Q Did you take an active part in the fighting of the partisans? divisions were assigned -
Q Please answer the question directly. You did take an active part?
Q Did you lead any detachment into action against the partisans?
A No, I did not lead any detachment, Your Honor. I had no military training and in that case, in spite of my shoulders troubles, I went along with the Battalion just like any enlisted man. I had no right to give orders, but a Rumanian major had this authority, but in that case, I took part like a simple enlisted man. done some fighting?
A Yes, Your Honor. With this Battalion I marched for two days up and down mountains, through woods....
a carbine?
AAs it was most suitable for fighting in the woods. I had a machine rifle for close range fighting and also my pistol.
Q And did you have occasion to use those weapons at times? where there were some ruins on tap, behind which partisans were hiding, we suddenly were attacked by machine guns. Apart from that grenades were thrown at us from another place. at you.
A No, your Honor, I did not have any hand grenades. Apart from that we were not so close to them, but we also fought with automatic rifles and also with machine guns, I believe. The partisans then withdrew after they had been fighting about a quarter of an hour and they retired and we pursued them. One of my comrades managed to shoot one of the partisans when escaping, but apart from that they managed to get down the other side of the mountain. posing of the partisans?
A No, Your Honor, No. Your Honor. That was the only occasion, when we actually came in contact with the enemy. Apart from that the partisans always left.
Q But you did act as a soldier in these combats? could not join the Wehrmacht because of your physical condition? If you could use a pistol, fire a carbine, go on long marches, climb hills, what prevented you from making a good Wehrmacht soldier?
A Your Honor, I can only reply to you, the Army examined me. The Army found that my shoulder joints were injured and this so seriously that even when I dressed and undressed I dislocated my shoulder joints and that at night when sleeping during dreams I also dislocated them.
I passed through several university clinics because of this and owing to this fact the Army found me unfit. putting on your shirt and yet be able to fire a carbine and a rifle and not have any difficulty? with me and particularly my driver, who also witnessed how I did. located my arm in the Caucasus.
Q But you did fire the gun? my arm. I regarded it my duty to stand by my men.
Q Very well. Looking over your personal record, it seems that you obtained some decorations and you received the usual Yule Candlestick, is that right?
A Your Honor, at the moment I don't have the document in front of me, but, in fact, I did get the Yuletide Candlestick.
Q Now, you can't tell me you can't remember what medals you received. You would certainly be the only soldier in the world who didn't remember that. the Yuletide Candlestick. tions which took place just before Christmas, 1941? Christmas 1935, at the latest, 1936, as far as I remember, because when I married I already had it.
Q You did not receive any decoration for the action in the Crimea?
A For the operation in the Crimea? No, I did not. If I learned it correctly, I was recommended for the Iron Cross Second Class, because of my participation in the Anti-Partisan fight, but I never received the Iron Cross.
Later on, when I was at home, I got a War Merit Cross, Second Class. At the time I don't know how many hundreds of thousands or millions of Germans had it already who had never been at the front.
Q Do you consider yourself a religious person? conscience.
Q You left the church?
Q Now, do you celebrate Christmas every year? ce or is it merely a period of celebration without any religious implication? of Christian origin, but I believe every German knows that it is the most beautiful festival among German families and I always celebrated it in that spirit, I feel.
Q And did you celebrate Christmas 1941 in the field with your men? dorf conducted and I like to remember it.
Q And did it have a religious significance? give a sermon. I believe those who heard Ohlendorf speak about religious matters only once will confirm that he was very well able to touch upon religious questions.
Q Did he make a speech on that day, on Christmas Day of 1941?
Q And did he talk on religious matters?
A Your Honor, I cannot give any details of the words any more. I don't know whether he mentioned Christ, but I know Herr Ohlendorf's attitude on all this.
Q What was his attitude as he delivered it in his speech? What did he say that was of a religious significance?
Q Did anybody offer any prayers on Christmas Day of 1941?
A Your Honor, I do not know. I was not present, but I feel certain that in those days in particular many persons said prayers, because the situation in which we were was such that we did not know whether we would still be living within the next few days, whether we would fall into the hands of the Russians. just killed ten days before?
A. Your Honor, I don't know whether anyone prayed for these many thousands of Jews.
Q.- All right. Now... when the order came down from the Army that you had to kill these ten thousand Jews before Christmas, was any objection offered that it was highly inopportune to kill these defenseless people during the religious period?
A.- No, your Honor, nobody mentioned this to me.
Q.- Did you have any misgivings about ordering the execution of these Jews on the Eve of Christmas which you, as a religious person, celebrated every year?
A.- Your Honor, the order had come from the Army. Perhaps I would have preferred it at the time if it had not come at Christmas time, about two weeks before Christmas. Perhaps if the decision had been left to us the measures would have been carried out later. Our thoughts at the time were home with wife and children.
Q.- Were there any women and children among those Jews who were executed just before Christmas?
A.- I already said, Your Honor, I never saw any children. There were women among them.
Q.- You know that children were executed, don't you?
A.- Yes, Your Honor. That was the most difficult part of this order, for us.
Q.- Now, in all the time that you were an Einsatzkommando leader, did you, at any time, just out of sheer sympathy, release some defenseless woman or some whimpering child of the Jewish faith, who was scheduled for execution?
A.- Your Honor, I did not see any whimpering child. I said how hard it was for us, and for me, and my men, to have this order carried out.
Q.- Well, you know that if children -
A.- No, no exceptions were made to that effect, as you mention.
Q.- Yes. And you know that since children were killed, that they certainly wouldn't go to their death laughing -- since you seem to take objection to the phrase "whimpering child."
A.- No, your Honor, I do not object to it. I don't think that anyone went laughing -- that none of these many hundreds and thousands of women and children who had to die in this war.
Q.- You joined the SS or the SD - and then eventually the SS, voluntarily?
A.- I volunteered on the 18th of November 1934, to join the special formation of the SS - which is called the SD.
Q.- And you joined the National Socialist Party voluntarily?
A.- Yes, I had on 1 July -- that is, I applied to become a member on 15th of May 1931.
Q.- And you were familiar with the National Socialist program?
A.- I knew it, your Honor, yes.
Q.- And you knew that it was definitely anti-semitic?
A.- Your Honor, perhaps it would be necessary to explain the idea of anti-semitism here... but I know that this program attacked Jewry.
Q.- Yes. And you know that the program called for the disfranchissement of the Jews?
A.- Your Honor, I don't know what You mean by disfranchisement.
Q.- That they were deprived of the right of citizenship, and the right to vote.
A.- Yes, they lost their civic rights because of the Nurngerg laws, through a national law.
Q.- Yes. And you know that in most instances they lost their property?
A.- Your Honor, if I remember it correctly - until 1941 the emigration of the Jews from Germany was assisted and favored -- I cannot say how much money they were allowed to take along, but I think I remember that the rest of their property was to be put on a blocked account.
Q.- Well, you know that in fact they lost their valuables and their property, don't you?
A.- The final result came about because of the war, and at the end, in April or May 1942, when the final solution has been ordered... this was the final result. But, your Honor, we had no idea of this and we did not think of it when we joined the party. It was never mentioned when I came to the SD, and this final solution was never mentioned when I went to the East.
Q.- Did you know what happened on November 10, 1938?
A.- Yes, your Honor, I know that. At the time I was in Munich myself and that evening I was together with Herr Ohlendorf.
Q.- And did you approve of what happened?
A.- No, your Honor. I wish the SD report still existed which I made from Muenster at the time.....they would not only show how many people among the population thought about this, but it would also prove how we thought of it.
Q.- Well, it was very obvious to you at that time that National So cialism was leading to stricter and severer measures against the Jews, was it not?
A.- Your Honor, I don't know what you mean by more severe measures; in any case, such a solution as come about in practive, I never thought of. To be quite honest, I could not understand it.
Q.- Well, but you could see, because of your position, that from time to time stricter measures were enforced... they were being sent to concentration camps.... they had to wear certain insignie on their bodies...their property was taken away from them...Synagogues were being burned down....You could see this progression of hostility towards the Jewish race, couldn't you?
A.- Your Honor, I do not remember any case where a Jew, just because he was a Jew, was sent to a concentration camp - apart from the moment on, when they were sent to the East in order to be eliminated.
I can say with a clean conscience that I heard about this measure only after the capitulation and I admit quite openly when I heard it for the first time in Norway at first I thought it was just propaganda.
Q.- It is very difficult to comprehend how you could recognize that a Jew would be sent to his death because of his nationality, and yet not recognize that he could be sent to a concentration camp and merely be deprived of his liberty. How do you reconcile those two statements?
A.- I don't know what you mean... at the time, your Honor. Do you mean the measures in the East, your Honor?
Q.- Well,you knew that the Jews were being killed.
A.- But, your Honor, may I emphasize again, in the East it was expressly ordered as part of the entire events... a Fuehrer order was issued for the sake of security. At the time, nobody was told that the entire Jewry in Europe should be eliminated/
Q.- You know who Heydrich was, of course, don't you?
A.- Yes, your Honor.
Q.- Did you have any contact with him?
A.- I said, your Honor, that I never met Heydrich personally, and to discuss things with him. I only heard him when he made speeches during meetings.
Q.- Do you know that on July 31, 1941, he ordered the complete solution of the Jewish question?
A.- No, I do not know that, your Honor. I did not know what he meant by complete solution at the time... all I know is that at the time I was in charge of the State police office in Halle, the Jews were still there. I was never told that these Jews were to be eliminated.
Q.- You know that Heydrich sent a telegram to all officers of the Gestapo and SD on November 10, 1938, urging the pogroms, didn't you?
A.- Your Honor, I never heard about it, that in a telegram... in November 1938 he sent a telegram.
.. Do you mean by that, the events of 9 November 1938?
Q.- Yes, A.- On 9 November 1938 -Q.- No, the morning of November 10, 1938, Heydrich sent a telegram to all officers of the Gestapo and SD, giving instructions for the organization of the pogroms of that date, and instructing them to arrest as many Jews as the prison could hold.
Did you know about that?
A.- Your Honor, I never received an order to start pogroms. I never participated. I never heard about it. I heard about it here in Nuernberg that in all 20,000 Jews were arrested that day, when I was still in Munich. I don't know how I could explain it.... that I do not remember anything from Muenster at the time. I only know that the instruction was given at the time to prevent excesses, and that we made a great number of reports which, in my opinion, brought about proceedings.
Q.- Well, you knew that these excesses of November 10th or November 11th 1938 took place with the complete approval of Heydrich, didn't you?
A.- According to what I remember from Munich, your Honor, Heydrich and Himmler were deeply shocked. I never heard, and I had thought this had been asserted in the IMT already....I don't know whether I read it in the judgment or somewhere else.
Q.- It so happens that I am reading from the IMT decision.
A.- Your Honor, I can only assure you that I did not get to know it in that form, but just the opposite.
Q.- You took the oath to Hitler, did you not.... the oath to Hitler of fealty and allegiance?
A.- Yes, your Honor, as official and as an SS leader.
Q.- And when you took that oath you swore to follow him and all leaders that he might appoint?
A.- I believe the oath was to that effect, your Honor... yes.
Q.- And you heard some of Hitler's speeches?
A.- Yes, Your Honor.
Q.- And you knew of his violent attitude toward the Jews?
A.- Yes, I knew that, your Honor.
Q.- Yes, Well, didn't it occur to you that some time sooner or later, that you would be called upon to execute one of his orders which had to do with Jewry, and you were bound by oath to execute that order? Didn't it occur to you in the early days that that would come about?
A.- Your Honor, that I would ever receive an order in the war to kill Jews never occurred to me. Of course, we expected at the time that the Jews would be restricted considerably... that they might be interned during the war because they constituted a danger... but measures as they were carried out at the end, I never thought of!
Q.- Did you yourself believe they were a danger in Germany to the security of the Reich?
A.- Your Honor, according to all that had been done against the Jews until the beginning of the war, I believe that no German held the opinion that they would feel friendly towards the German people in their war, and insofar I would like to compare it with the fact that in war time enemy aliens, for example, are interned in order to avoid any danger which they might constitute.
Q.- Although you say you never witnessed the execution of any Jewish children, you know that some were executed. Now, I ask you, were any children,but Jewish children executed?
A.- No, Your Honor, I wouldn't know what kind of children.
Q.- Did you do anything after 1938, when these excesses occurred, to in some way separate yourself from this oath of allegiance to a man who was obviously leading to the demanding of greater and greater excesses against the Jews?
A.- Your Honor, the 9th of November 1938 -- and I still retain that opinion, even now -- was an independent measure by Goebbles and the SA on their own authority, and I regretted it deeply at the time, and I considered it a pity for out people; and at the time I did not think that such measures would ever be taken as finally were taken.
Q.- Well, did you consider it a pity when a couple of days later a fine of one billion marks was levied on the Jewish people in Germany, who had nothing to do with the killing in Paris. Did you regard that with pity and sympathy?
A.- I don't know anything about this. You justmentioned a killing of Jews in Paris. This is the first time I hear about this.
Q.- Well, now, you know that because of an incident in Paris a fine of one billion marks was levied on the Jewish people in Germany... You know that, of course.
A.- I believe it was more, your Honor. I considered this measure also wrong.
Q.- Yes. Well, then, when you say these wrong things happened, why didn't you do something to withdraw from the organization which was doing these wrong things?
A.- Your Honor, the organization to which I belonged did not do it. But we objected to it. And if the SD reports existed now, they would prove this. I just said I considered it my task in the SD to tell the Leadership how the people thought about these things, and through my report I thought I would be able to stop such things in the future.
Q.- Witness, it was the Reich government which levied this fine, and you were part of the Reich government.
A.- If I remember correctly, Hermann Goering levied this money... I don't know on what authority, your Honor.
Q.- Well, it was collected, and it went to the benefit of the Reich Government, of which you were a part.
A.- I presume so, that it was for the benefit of the Reich government - but I was not part of the Reich government, your Honor.
Q.- You weren't part of the Reich Government?
A.- No, I could not say that, your Honor. By Reich government I mean the Ministers -- that was the Reich government.
Q.- Is it your idea that the government is made up only of Ministers? Is that your idea of the government?
A.- NO, but, your Honor, perhaps we misunderstand each other here. We in Germany mean by Reich government only the Reich ministers, That is the Reich Government.
Q.- Well, then, we will use the generic term of the Reich..... you were part of the Reich weren't you?
A.- I was an official of the Reich, yes.
Q.- Yes. So to that extent you were interested in what the government was doing?
A.- Yes, I had to carry out the laws of the government as a civil servant. That was my duty.
Q.- Yes, Well..... therefore, you were part of an organization which was doing these things which you condemned, weren't you?
A.- Your Honor, I can only repeat -- the events of 9 November was a measure by Goebbles and the SA only, and not by the Reich government. As far as I remember, Adolf Hitler himself was disgusted about this measure. That is what we were told at the time. I believe I was already in Munich when Himmler talked to Adolf Hitler at the time.
Q.- And do you now give us the striking information that Hitler repudiated these excesses against the Jews?
A.- Your Honor, I can only say what we were told. I never heard Hitler's personal opinion about this.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 2 December 1947.)
of America, against Otto Ohlendorf, et al., A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. STUEBINGER: Stuebinger for Braune. but, on the other hand, I should like to come back to the document which was submitted by the prosecution. The Prosecution expressed the wish to refer to this document in the rebuttal and to use it for that purpose. I would like to ask your Honor to tell me whether we have the same right, that is, to come back to this document on a later occasion? Otherwise, I have only one question to put to the witness for the following reason: The sergeant who signed this report behaved in a manner, which certainly is of very great importance for the probative value of this report, and the witness might be able to inform us if the Tribunal deems it necessary.
THE PRESIDENT: The document is not yet in evidence. It has not even been offered. When it is presented, if it is presented, you will make your objection to its introduction as an exhibit and the court will then decide whether it should be accepted. If it is not accepted, then, of course, it will be unnecessary for you to make any comment on it at all or to inquire into how it was made up. If it is accepted, full opportunity will be given to you to recall the defendant and question him about it in any way and to any extent that you deem in order.
DR. STUEBINGER: Yes, your Honor. I only want to direct your attention to the fact today that for the case of the submission of this document this sergeant must be heard as a witness here, because a personal questioning will probably be necessary in this case, as far as I know,
THE PRESIDENT: You have now indicated your position and the transcript will show it. We only add that in the event this document is presented that full opportunity will be allowed you to question or attack it in any way by questioning, by calling witnesses, or in any way that a document is attacked.
DR. STUEBINGER: Also in this form that I can call this witness who made out this report.
THE PRESIDENT: I did say that, by calling witnesses.
DR. STUEBINGER: Thank you, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.- Witness, I am not certain whether I understood an answer which you made yesterday, and I will call your attention to the way it appears before me and indicate whether this is what you said. "We faced a situation," this refers to Christmas Day in the Crimea, "which put us before the question whether we would have to take our own lives in the coming days or whether we would fall into the hands of the Russians." Were you correctly reported?
A.- Your Honor, I wanted to express the following: The military situation was such, so serious and so hopeless and it was also even seen by the Commander of the Army to be thus, that each individual of us had to be prepared to be conquered by the Russians, and I only wanted to say that I would have been put before the question either to fall into the hands of the Russians, but I think if we had the strength to do so, we would have preferred to commit suicide. That is what I wanted to express, your Honor.
Q.- Very well, that clears it up. Just one more question. You accepted the National-Socialist ideology sincerely and with full faith, did you?
A.- Yes, at the time when I joined the movement I did, yes.
Q.- And did you still retain faith in that ideology throughout your service?
A.- Your Honor, as I saw it then, and as I understood it at the time, stantially.
On the other hand, I think I have expressed that even when did not agree with some individual details.
I, therefore expressed my Q.- But you accepted the National-Socialist ideology, did you not, and accepted it with enthusiasm?
A.- Yes, I accepted it, your Honor, but I may say quite openly it wasn't that one moved on absolute certain grounds.
We had the possibility Q.- But as far as dealing with your comrades was concerned and with Socialist Party?
A.- I spoke to Ohlendorf on many occasions during these years, and But I think it was expressed in the direct examination of Ohlendorf how he saw a number of things, and I can't express it in a better way than Q.- Yours superiors looked upon you as one who accepted the National Socialist ideology?
A.- Your Honor, I could not talk to them about it. I never heard immediate superior, then, of course, this is correct, and as based on a number of critical and worried reports, The opinion that Heydrich thought that I was one of these men who accepted practically everything without criticism, I dare to doubt, your Honor.
Q.- Well, in addition to what Ohlendorf thought, your own personal record showed that you were one who could be depended upon in the acting out of the ideology of the National Socialist Party, is that correct?
A.- Yes, that is correct, as I already said, however, with the limitation that those who expressed this did not mean the same perhaps, by the ideology, as what I meant.
Q.- Well, the ideology was not subject to much doubt. It was expressed in speeches of the Fuehrer, and it appeared in the National Socialist Party rpogram. There wasn't much doubt about what the ideology of the National Socialist Partly was, was there?
A.- I think, that also was expressed by Ohlendorf. That wasone of our worries; that the ideology did not express the last clarities which it should have done. That was one of our worries, your Honor, that after 1933 the idea was not strengthened and clarified, but that one moved very much on the outside, that one was so much influenced by propaganda. That was one of our worries, your Honor.
Q.- But no one could have doubted that the National-Socialist Party looked upon members of the Jewish race as enemies of the Reich?
A. Your Honor, enemy of the Reich may be said too much perhaps. I may say openly, I myself held the point of view, that is after 1933, that it was necessary to modify the tremendous influence that Jewry held in Germany after 1918 and to bring it back to a healthy status. I thought of a numerus clausus which would have caused that in relation to the percertages of Jews in the German population they should take part in the public life of the people. I think it my duty that I should express this at this point too. But apart from this, your Honor, we never thought of a 9th of November, 1938, nor did we think of what happened eventually, and I may assure you again that even when war broke out, and even in 1941, I never knew and we would never have believed that it would come to this development.
Q. Well, you said that you knew that the Jews were the most active of the Communists, and certainly the Reich had declared war on Communism.
A. Your Honor, one cannot say this for Germany; one could not have said that the German.......
Q. I don't mean to declare war in the official sense, but the entire policy of the National Socialist Party was to fight Communism in every form.
A. Yes, certainly to fight Communism, because we thought that was a great danger, not only for our people but for the whole of Europe.
Q. Yes. Then you said that the Jews were the most active of Communists.
A. I would like to clarify this, your Honor, I spoke of the Eastern J ews which we met there. I do not want to say this for Jewry in Germany. I would like to make this very clear distinction there.
Q. Then the Jews in Eastern Europe were the most active of the Communists, is that right
A: Your Honor, they were described that way to us in the Fuehrer Order, that is as an acute danger, and I have expressed that what we experienced there......
Q. But you said.....
A. Had to confirm this attitude according to what it said in this order.
Q. But you said, Witness, that you were of the opinion at the time that they were the most active of the Communists and therefore constituted a great danger, and then you said you were of that same opinion today.
A. That is how I found it confirmed in Russia, your Honor, after what I found out there.
Q. Yes.
A. I described the Crimea.
Q. Yes, all right. So that when you got this order from the High Command to get the Jews into their graves by Christmas you more or less approved of the principle that the Jews had to be eliminated because they were active enemies there in the Crimes against the security of the Reich?
A. No, your Honor, I would not like you to draw this conclusion. I said in my direct examination if it had been up to my decision I would not have decided in this manner because of the tremendous consequences of such a measure and the tremendous consequence in fact which they had, but I was confronted with an order within the whole event of the war and had to comply with it.
Q. But you did not, in the compliance with that order, attempt to salve your conscience by releasing one single individual human creature of the Jewish race, man, woman or child?
A. Your Honor, I have already said that I did not search for children. I can only say the truth. There were no exceptions, and I did not see any possibility.
Q. All right. Now, just one final question, and in this respect I am just as bad as defense counsel when they say only one question and then ask about ten, in the matter of the execution, witness, you stated in your affidavit that the executees were placed in such a position that they did not face the grave and they were shot from the rear. Do I understand, in reconstructing that scene, that the executors had to fire over the open grave?
A. Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The only reason I put that question is that it had been described to us differently in other executions, and I presume that different methods were used in the performance of that unpleasant function. Very well. The witness will now be returned to the defendants' dock.
(Witness excused)
THE PRESIDENT: Is Dr. Riediger present and ready to proceed? Yes, all right, and Defendant Haensch will be taken to the witness box.
WALTER HAENSCH: A witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Raise your right hand and repeat after me: will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, may I take the liberty, before the direct examination of the defendant, to point out that the evidence will take place so that after the examination I shall call the female witness Schreier to the witness stand.