I cannot tell exactly, but it must have been in October, the end of October. was an inquiry about Haensch's picture, didn't you?
A No, I don't think so.
Q Mrs. Haensch spoke to you employee and then your employee spoke to you, is that right?
Q And that was in October?
A Yes, end of October/
Q End of October, and what did the employee tell you? photostatic copy of the business books for this trial.
Q And then you looked it up in the book?
Q And you got out the negative?
Q Then you remembered that you had taken that picture yourself?
Q And then when did Mrs. Haensch talk to you personally?
A She did not talk to me at all. I did not see her again.
Q You never saw Mrs. Haensch?
A I don't think I know her at all. At least I don't remember her. I don't know who was sent with the picture. She didn't come to my place at all.
Q Then you saw the positive of this picture a month or so ago?
Q Did someone bring to your office a picture of Haensch?
Q Then all you did was to look up the negative?
Q You never saw the positive; that is until recently?
Q All right. Now were the pictures delivered back in 1942, did Mrs. Haensch come for them herself?
Q Who paid for the pictures?
A I don't know. I did not accept the money myself. It my have come by mail. I don't remember exactly. you?
A The one that works for me now? Three years, but only for my household and for reception.
Q Why couldn't this employee have kept the book that you previous employee kept?
Q then you don't have to devote all your time to household working do you?
Q Well, you didn't three years ago. couldn't you? often. I had two operations behind me.
Q You didn't tell us that when we asked you. You said you were just too busy with your household work.
A Of course I had. The employee can't take off all the work I have to do.
Q Doesn't this employee do your household work?
Q What do you keep her for?
Q You have two rooms, is that right?
order? fact th t you have someone to assist you in the household work, that you cannot devote a few minutes at the end of the day to keeping a record of the business of that day, is that right? for that reason I let it go.
Q Well then, it wasn't because you didn't have time? and consequently I couldn't work so much in the household, and I took in this assistant because I was often sick.
Q Who did your professional work when you were sick? was closed. 1943?
Q Yes, except the dancing records. You don't have those?
Q Very well. Now, Mrs. Haensch came to your office, came to your place of business, and informed your employee that she would like to have the records? negative. When was the next time you heard about this case, after that?
A Dr. Riediger visited me in Berlin.
Q And when was that?
A I don't remember the exact date.
A The first days of November perhaps, I can't say exactly. It might have been at the end of October.
Q Did you show him the negative?
Q Did you ever see Mrs. Haensch in your life?
A No, I can't remember ever having seen her.
Q You say you brought this negative along with you? header and one without.
Q What kind of a uniform?
A I don't remember the color. I don't know; I didn't ask him for it.
Q You didn't ask him for it? What about your eyes? Didn't you see the color?
A I don't remember the color.
Q What kind of shoulder straps did it have?
Q What kind of shoulder straps did the uniform have?
A That I don't know. these pictures very well, and not only that, you have had an opportunity to look at the negative since. Now, you can't tell us what shoulder straps the subject were?
Q You don't have any memory for clothes? a good memory for clothes.
A Perhaps for women's clothes, but not for men's lapels, etc.?
A I couldn't describe it exactly.
Q Can you give us any idea? sure.
Q When did you see the negative last?
A Before a left for Nurnberg. I can put it at you disposal. It is in my room in Nurnberg.
Q And you hadn't seen Haensch since February, 1942? negative? myself. There was no one in my business who might have taken the picture. I was the only one there, the only one who took pictures. made quite a point of it, that you took the picture yourself. When you say that you took the picture yourself, it naturally suggests that someone else could have taken it, and you said that you remembered it very well because you have a photographic memory. Are you changing that testimony now?
A No, I don't want to change that, but--is because you are the only one who could have taken it, is that right?
A No one else. I had no assistant who could have taken the picture.
Q so it wasn't because you recognized the picture that you say that you knew that you took the picture ?
A No. I do remember the type of picture.
Q Do you remember the face?
Q Now you remember the time. What time of the day was it in the forenoon?
A I can't tell you that exactly. I can't say that exactly. 1942?
Q What day of the week was it?
A I don't know that? Do you remember the face ? You haven't answered that question yet.
Q You remembered having seen that person before your lens?
Q Do you remember everyone whose picture you took? you took?
THE PRESIDENT: During the noon recess the witness will be accompanied by a guard to her personal quarters in Nurnberg so that the negative which she has with her may be obtained and brought to the Tribunal when it reconvenes.
Mr. Hochwald?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: May I respectfully request the Tribunal also to rule that the witness is not supposed to look at this negative?
THE PRESIDENT: The guard will accompany the witness and she will hand the negative to the guard without looking at it, and the Secretary-general is instructed to do whatever is required to have brought to Nurnberg the witness, Frau Friedel Reich. And the present witness is instructed, under no circumstances must she speak with Frau Friedel Reich.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: Thank you very much, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 345 hours, 3 December 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr. Walton.
MR. WALTON: Walton for the defense counsel Dr. Meyer for the defendant Braune. In the absence of Dr. Meyer it has come to the attention of the prosecution that tomorrow Dr. Braune's wife arrives in Nurnberg and the purpose of her visit is that she has just suffered a loss through death of her father and she wishes to speak with her husband on certain family matters. had not been in the actual custody of the Court. Therefore, we request this Tribunal, if it is agreeable with the Tribunal, to instruct the Marshal to permit Mrs. Braune to see her husband tomorrow afternoon contingent upon his excuse from attendance on these proceedings.
THE PRESIDENT: Acting defense counsel Walton, we are pleased to accede to your request and we will be grateful if you will make the necessary arrangements so that the interview between Mrs. Braune and the defendant Braune may take place.
MR. WALTON: Then I have permission of the Tribunal to instruct the prison officer?
THE PRESIDENT: You do have the permission.
MR. WALTON: In the name of the Tribunal?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you may do it in the name of the Tribunal. Mr. Walton, will this be during Court hours?
MR. WALTON: Yes sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and so that then the record will be complete the Tribunal will excuse the defendant during that period when he will be conferri with his wife. BY THE PRESIDENT:
so far as dancing lessons were concerned?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened to this book between 1915 and 1941?
A. It will have been kept in some cupboard.
Q. Did you always live at the same place between 1915 and 1941?
A. No, I lived in different apartments.
Q. How many apartments?
A. I will have to think it over for some time. I moved several times, five or six times, I think.
Q. And each time you moved you took with you the record of these dancing pupils for which you had no use; is that right?
A. Yes, I took all my things along. Among them was this book.
Q. Now, after 1943 you had no further use for this book, did you?
A. No.
Q. Why did you continue to keep it?
A. I kept all my things and this book was among my things.
Q. Well, why did you not keep then the record of the dancing students?
A. when I used this book for the business I took the first few pages out in order to have a new book for the business, because I was not able to buy one.
Q. Well, how would it affect the keeping of the record of the photographs taken if you kept in the same book these other pages with the names of your dancing students?
A. It would not have quite fitted, in my opinion. That's why I took it out. I didn't think about it any further. I wanted to start the book new.
Q. When Dr. Haensch entered your studio on February 21, 1942, as you have testified, was he wearing his glasses?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Did he wear glasses at all during this period?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well now, you remembered what he looked like. Why wouldn't you remember whether he was wearing glasses or not?
A. When the picture was taken he did not wear glasses.
Q. Well, of course, that could have been verified by simply looking at the negative, but we want to know whether he was wearing glasses when he came into the studio?
A. I cannot say that now anymore.
Q. So that you didn't remember his face well enough independently of refreshing your memory from the negative as to just what he looked like?
A. No, I only refreshed my memory when I saw the negative.
Q. So that you really cannot remember the faces of the hundreds whose pictures you have taken independently of the negatives and the pictures?
A. No. If I was asked how the person concerned looked, it would have to be an exceptional face for me to remember it exactly.
Q. You wouldn't remember the face unless there was something extraordinarily unusual about it?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, what do you find so unusual about Dr. Haensch's face that you remembered his?
A. I said already that I only remembered it when I looked at the negative again.
Q. Well, when you looked at the negative you had to compare it with your memory, with you image of a face. Merely looking at the picture would mean nothing unless you could make a comparison, and that's the only way you recall a mental image. Now, when you saw the picture in the negative, the you recognized it as the man whose picture you had taken; is that correct?
A. Yes, I recognized him as a person of whom I had taken a photo, but whether his name was Dr. Haensch I did not know. I only compared it with the book.
Q. Yes, and you say that you remember only these faces which are unusual?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, what was there unusual about Dr. Haensch's face that you recalled it when you saw the negative as the one whose picture you had made five years before?
A. There was nothing exceptional. Only I recalled it when I heard the whole context.
Q. What do you mean by the whole context?
A. I took out the negative and I found the name in the book and compared it to the negative, and I then remembered that I had seen that face and that I had taken the photo myself.
Q. By looking at the name you recalled the face?
A. About that, yes.
Q. Can you recall the faces of all these names that are in this book?
A. No, I cannot do that. I would have to look at a negative or a picture of the person concerned. Then I would remember that I have already seen the person and retouched the picture. By retouching the picture the impression of the person becomes even deeper than when one just looks at it for a short time.
Q. Yes, but what does referring to the book do to help you recall the features of the face?
A. The book only helps to find the negative.
Q. You said that you looked at the negative. Then you looked in the to remember that that was the person whose picture you had taken.
Is that what you just said or said a few moments ago?
A. Yes, quite right.
Q. All right. Now, I want you to tell us how looking at a nme in, this book helps you to recall features?
A. No, I looked for the negative after seeing the name, and then I
Q. Well then, you only look in the book to find the negative?
A. Quite right.
Q. So that you recollection is from the negative and not from the book?
A. Yes.
Q. So then we come back to the original proposition. What is there recall the features of Dr. Haensch?
A. I don't quite know what to say. I described the whole process in detail, and I can only repeat myself.
The moment I saw the negative
Q. When you saw the negative you remembered the person, you remembere about when he came for the picture, and you recalled the time of the day?
A. Not the exact day, no. I only saw that from the book.
Q. But you did remember the time of the day. You remembered it was in the forenoon?
A. I cannot say this under oath, but I think it must have been in the morning.
somehow I seem to remember that subconsciously.
Q. Can you tell by looking at every negative whether the picture was taken in the morning or the afternoon?
A. No, I cannot do that.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, would you please continue with your cross examination?
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please; may I have the three exhibits which are before the Tribunal?
THE PRESIDENT: YES. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Witness, will you tell the Tribunal whether on the negative themselves there is some number or some date?
A. The number and the name is on it in any case. Whether the date is also on there, I don't know. Yes, on the negative the number and the name should be there.
THE PRESIDENT: Was it your custom to add the date to the negative?
THE WITNESS: Not always, no, because we looked for these negatives according to names and figures and not according to dates.
Q. (By Mr. Hochwald) But name and number must be on it?
A. Should be on it, yes.
Q. Will you just examine these two pictures? Can you tell the Tribunal whether on these two negatives -
A. No, there is no number on them.
Q. Name? Is there a name on it?
A. No, no name either unfortunately.
THE PRESIDENT: Why do you say unfortunately? Why did you add that? What difference does it make whether they are there or not?
THE WITNESS: Because my employees did not do this properly when they wrote on the negatives. It really should not have occurred.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you have an assistant in the actual photographic process?
THE WITNESS: No, I developed these things myself at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, you are the one who should have added the name and number?
THE WITNESS: No, I developed the plates and the next day when the employee came she settled these writing matters.
THE PRESIDENT: And she would write on the negative?
THE WITNESS: Yes, she should have written the name and the number on it.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the names and numbers appear on all the other negatives?
THE WITNESS: Yes. name and number?
THE WITNESS: It is possible that this occurred repeatedly, I am not sure. But every negative should bear the name and the number in order to find it afterwards.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Let us say in a hundred negatives how many would bear the names and numbers?
THE WITNESS: Among a hundred negatives it might have happened once that it was omitted.
THE PRESIDENT: And it happened to be Dr. Haensch?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
Q. (By Mr. Hochwald) Will you tell the Tribunal what that is? Do you know what it is or shall I hand it to you? Will you be good enough to hand it to the witness.
A. Yes, that is the photostatic copy of the writing pad which I put at the disposal of the Tribunal.
Q. When was this copy made?
A. It was made by my employee during my absence.
Q. I still do not know when it was made?
THE PRESIDENT: Have you made it clear that it is the photostat? Isn't that what you mean? I don't think the witness understood that.
Q. (By Mr. Hochwald) When was the photo copy made?
A. It was made during my absence. Frau Dr. Haensch visited me in the studio while I was away on a journey and my employee made this photostatic copy for Dr. Riediger.
Q. Is it not true
THE PRESIDENT: I don't quite understand it. She said Dr. Haensch visited her?
DR. HOCHWALD: As far as I understood it, your Honor, the witness said that Mrs. Haensch visited her employee in her absence and that in her absence this copy was made on the request of Dr. Riediger; is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (By Mr. Hochwald) As far as I remember you have just this morning told the Tribunal that this employee of yours was not an employee in your business. It was only a servant in your house, a housekeeper. How do you explain,to the Tribunal that your employee, who was not in your place, or in your business when you made this photograph, who did not keep these books, that she was able to give Mrs. Haensch not only the necessary information but also a photo copy just of this little book, or the page of the little books?
A. My employee had once been in the MPA, that is, the Military Testing office, and there she must have done that kind of work, and at the request of Dr. Haensch she made this photostatic copy.
Q. Who requested you -- Dr. Haensch requested you or Dr. Riediger?
A. I meant Dr. Riediger.
Q. How would this employee have found the negative without number? The negative is not numbered. Will you tell that to the Tribunal?
A. On the envelope will be the number of the negative inside it.
Q. Are you sure of that?
A. No, I am not quite sure, but it might have been filed under the name as well and she found it under the name.
Q. I hand you the envelope and will you tell me what you find on there?
A. That is the name and number written on it.
Q. Will you please compare pencilmark of the name and the number on the negative and the envelope and will you tell the Tribunal whether you see a difference?
A. Yes, the one on the top I wrote myself on the negative, no, I mean the envelope, and the other one my employee must have written.
Q When did you write the number?
Q At the same time? the 21st February 1942, this number and the name of Haensch were written by you on this envelope, is that correct? when the picture was taken. the same date approximately?
Q How is that -- will you explain that to the Tribunal? You have just said that you wrote it, the name and the number.
A I can explain that. I develop at the end of the day. I develop my negatives in the evening, and the next day they are sorted and filed when they are dry, and the name and number is put on them. that correct?
Q You have examined the envelope, by now, did you not--did you? Did you not examine the envelope, I said? ferent pencil than the name--is it not, Witness--please answer?
A I don't think that it was a different pencil.
Q You are here under oath. Did you not find when you just now examined the envelope that the pencil of the number is much fresher than the pencil of the name?
Q Very well. The Tribunal has the envelope before it. I would now turn to the page in this notebook. By whom was this filled out?
book, is that right. a place for the amount which was paid before hand, and the date. This is the normal form, is it not? Can you remember when Dr. Haensch gave the order that these pictures should be sent to his wife?
A No. I only found that again in the book. My employee wrote this down.
Q Was he more than one time in your place?
A No. He was there only once. pictures should be sent to his wife, is that correct?
Q Under "Street", however, here it is said, "Hartmannsweiler Weg 16", and between "Name" and "Street" there is squeezed in a second address, which is the second address?
A That is the address which Dr. Haensch gave where the sample pictures were to be sent to. place which is provided for it? down the home address, and then later on the custormer might have said, "but I would like to have it sent to another address", and then we added the address where it is to be sent to. In the large book I remember that immediately under this there is an order which also gave us another address where the pictures are to be sent to.
Q It would be then Number 392?.
A Yes, that is possible--'93, I believe.
Q You can find out there. It is in the large book. This is 393, is it not? If you will just look into that in this case, 393, where you gave as an example, too, there is only one address in it.
which you make? into this little notebook?
A No. I was not present, but here under 406 it says-
Q But I want your answer, do you, or don't you know how this second address came into the little notebook?
A I don't know offhand. My employee wrote it here in her own handwriting.
THE PRESIDENT: What about this illustration of 393, was that cleared up?
MR. HOCHWALD: Your Honor, 393 bears also a remark where the pictures were to be sent to, and the witness said it happened very often that it was to be sent somewhere, and I looked up in the book the number she gave, and just under 393 there is only one address, the address where the pictures were to be sent to. Possibly the witness will tell the Tribunal whether this contention of mine is correct.
THE WITNESS: Yes, this contention is right, but in my book it is shown repeatedly that the home address is written here and the sample prints are to be sent somewhere else. May I give you the numbers for this?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Witness, you volunteered that under 393, the double address will be found. Now, Mr. Hochwald tells us that a double address does not appear under 393. Do you want to offer any explanation as to why you said that under 393 there would be a double address?
A I cannot say this. Probably only this one address was given where it was to be sent to, but wherever I could get a home address.....
MR. HOCHWALD: Will you hand the clerk, the big book, please---will you hand it to me?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q Did you find some other number where you had two addresses?
A Yes, several. If possible, I always asked people to give me their home address in case fees have to be received so that I can have the home address to obtain these amounts.
MR. HOCHWALD: I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. RIEDIGER: photo of Dr. Haensch. According to the normal way of business, when could you assume that the rough prints would be ready to be sent off?
Q That is two to three weeks?
Q Then I have here this picture which was sent to me. Is this a copy of these plates?
Q Was it taken by you?
Q And can you determine when you made this copy?
A No. I cannot determine that now, but these must be the pictures which were sent to Hirschfelde.
Q But you can't determine this from the picture yourself?
THE PRESIDENT: Might the Tribunal see that picture? BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your custom with regard to receiving payment for pictures?
A In most cases I have a small amount paid at the beginning; if they are acquaintances, I do not ask them to pay on account, and when the pictures are delivered, the rest is paid, but it happens repeatedly that the customers don't have any money with them, and then they pay for the pictures when they collect them.