Certainly they were interested in the -
Q. All right. Then you say you can't say anything in detail any more in spite of the fact that you have received a report. I would like to refresh your memory on this point, and I want to offer Document No-5187 as Prosecution's Exhibit, I do think it is 184.
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: 185.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: 185. I beg the Tribunal's pardon. It is Exhibit 185 which is a report from the occupied Eastern Terrtory dated 5 June 1942. On Page 5 of this document, Your Honor will find Sonderkommando 4b. On Page 5 the Tribunal will find sonderkommando 4b listed under the command of the defendant, location, Gorlovka.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) Will you turn now to Page 7. It says under the heading, "Page 4 of the original" - it is on the bottom of the page, Page 10 of the German.
A. Yes.
Q. "Several large-scale actions against partisans and Communists were carried out in the district of the Gorlovka Command in late April or early May 1942. 727 out of 1,038 persons arrested were given special treatment. Among them there were 461 partisans; members of destruction battalions, saboteurs, looters and some Communist activists and NKVD agents." Do you remember now anything about this action?
A. It says here -
Q. No, I don't want explaining what it said here. I asked you what you remember. Do you personally remember about this action?
A. I cannot remember individual figures.
Q. All right.
A. Apparently this concerns large-scale actions which took place at this time in frontal sector.
It says here: "in the commando district Gorlovka"
THE PRESIDENT: Please answer the attorney's question.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) I did not ask you that. I asked you only whether you remember now anything about this action?
A. No, I only still know from memory that about this time saboteurs and bandits became especially strong, and that was apparently connected with the pressure by the Russians exerted from their breaking point in the north, since one knew since long ago that this individual point had to be cleared.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you either remember this action or you do not. Mr. Hochwald asked you if you remembered this action. Now, please answer that once again. You answered it directly once, and t then you waiver. Now tell us specifically whether--
THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, I couldn't get that.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, let's start over again. Mr. Hochwald asked you, after making it very clear just what he was talking about, whether you remember this action. Now, please answer that yes or no, then you can go into the details, but do you remember this action which appears?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but not details.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, you do remember the action?
THE WITNESS: I remember the fact that large-scale actions took place at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now, proceed, Mr. Hochwald.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald): Can you tell the Tribunal how many out of the 727 people who were executed were Communist activists and NKVD agents?
Mr. HORLICK HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I have only a very few more questions, but it will take very likely about five or ten minutes longer than the usual sitting time of the Tribunal.
May I be permitted to take a little bit longer?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald): Then will you tell the Tribunal your commando or subkommandos of Sonderkommando 4b ever executed hostages?
A. No, I know of no shootings of hostages, and I am convinced that the Army and Wehrmacht never did any such thing.
Q. Did you command or the subcommando?
A. No, never.
Q. You have already said that your commando in the time when you were in charge never shot any Jews in great numbers, is that cor rect?
A. Yes, and I especially said that Jews were never executed just because they were Jews, It just couldn't be possible.
Q. Can you remember an incident where insanes were shot by your Sonderkommando?
A. No, never, and I may add to this that I heard of these matters for the first time from documents which I read here. I never knew that such things happened.
Q. Such executions of hostages, Jews and eventually of insanes, of course could not have been carried out at the time when you were in charge of the command without your knowledge and approval, is that correct?
A. Yes. I consider that impossible, completely impossible, that such a thing could have happened without my knowledge, and I may say to the Tribunal by explaining the following--
THE PRESIDENT: You have answered. The next question.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) I would like to hand you situation Report NO. 188.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, if you are going to refer to another document, I am afraid it might take longer than what you indicated.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: I definitely do not think so, Your Honors. These are two very short documents which I want to put in, but if the Tribunal pleases, of course I can defer my questioning until tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: We will be glad to remain another five minutes, only because of an appointment which has been made. Otherwise it wouldn't matter if you stayed another hour, but five minutes will be entirely in accordance with our plans.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: I do think I can have it finished in five minutes, Your Honor.
Mr. PRESIDENT: I am glad you have such faith in the witness.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick Hochwald) Take a look into situation Report No. 188 which is Document No. No-5941. This is only offered to show the location of the Sonderkommando 4b on the 1st of April, and I would like Your Honors to note that at that time the location was again Zhitomir. Do you recall, Dr. Haensch, that between the 28th and 31st of March when you admit you were with Sonderkommando 4b approximately 440 persons were specially treated, that is killed, is it not, by sonderkommando 4b in Zhitomir?
A. No.
Q. You said no?
A. Sonderkommando 4b had nothing to do with Rowno and Zhitomir. It is impossible in point of space. Rowno and Zhitomir are by direct distance at least seven hundred kilometers behind Gorlovka, behind the front. Furthermore -
Q. So it si contention that this report No. 188 of the 1st of April, 1942, is incorrect?
A. It is wrong to the extent --- It also says here Vinis, whereas in other reports it says Vinnitsa. I also want to make an explanation to the effect that kommando SD 4b on 19 December, according to the report of 19 December was in the Artemowsk district in Kramatorskaya, it was stationed there. According to situation Report of the 19 December 1941 in Artemowsk, these executions of Jews took place and afterwards by the 5th or 6th of January.---
THE PRESIDENT: Just---
A. (Continuing) in Rowno or Zhitomir was never indicated. It is impossible, therefore, that suddenly a front kommando, a subkommando, was moved seven hundred kilometers.
THE PRESIDENT: You see, this is in the nature of argument, Witness, and you want to leave something for Dr. Riediger to do. That is his forte, to argue the case.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: and to introduce Document No-3238. As these two documents,NO-5941 and 3238 belong together, as the first report gives only the location without which the whole second report would not be understandable,I would suggest they be given Prosecution No. 186-A and 186-B.
THE PRESENT: Very well.
Mr. HORLICK HOCHWALD: On the first page of this report it is stated that the location and communications as reported in Situation Report NO. 188, which I have just handed to the Tribunal, remain unchanged, and now I would like to quote from the excerpt which we have made from the document.
"Einsatzgruppe C:
Location, Kiev:
- - - - - - - unknown vandals desecrated the soldier's cemetary in Gayssen, "Shitomir.
50 hostages from Gayssen and vicinity were "From 26 March up to and inclusive 31 March a total of 434 persons were subjected to 'special measures'.Q. (By Mr. Horlick Hochwald) Does that mean killed, Herr Haensch, 'special measures'?
THE WITNESS: The witness says executed.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness say executed.
A. The terms of this report this probable means killed.
Q. "The figure breaks down as follows: 33 political officials; 48 saboteurs and plunderers; 352 Jews, and 1 insane." Do you want to change your statement that Sonderkommando 4b under your command never shot any Jews?
A. No, I do not want to change my testimony, Sonderkommando 4b had nothing to do with Zhitomir and Rowno during my time, and at this time there was a Dr. Ratzeberger in charge of the SD in Zhitomir and was stationed there with a corresponding command of the SD, as is apparent from the situation report of the 27th of March, Docu ment 3236. This report gives the compilation of location, Zhitomir, and commander Dr. Ratzeberger, and in Rowno, Dr. Puetz. The grotesque thing about this is that it was said again that SK 4b, and 4b is listed in Rowno and Zhitomir. I can't explain this, and I do not remember it, that when these offices were set up, that when the commandos were set up in Zhitomir and Rowno, that the order was given perhaps by the Einsatzgruppe, that men would have to be appointed for their experience in the East.
Q. I ask the Tribunal's pardon. It is only one very short question. Was this unit a part of Einsatzgruppe C?
A. Yes.
MR. HORLICK HOSHWALD: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine thirty.
( The Tribunal adjourned until 4 December 1947, at 0930 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
PRESIDENT: The Tribunal desires to make an announcement. There will be no session of the Tribunal tomorrow, Friday, so that when we adjourn this evening we will be in adjournment until next Monday morning. Proceed, Dr. Reidiger.
DR. RIEDIGIR: Your Honor, first of all, I would like to have an explanation by the prosecution. I would like to point out the following: Yesterday, the prosecution introduced Document No. 3238. In ;the excerpt of the copy of this document there are only two paragraphs. one is "in Shitomir" and so forth as part of the investigation, "50 hostages", first, "these were arrested," "half of them were shot". The next paragraph I quote, "In the time from 28 March until -- inclusive of 31 March, altogether 434 persons were given special treatment". In the photostatic copy of the original there are several paragraphs before these two paragraphs. In the previous paragraphs several other places are named, so that the second paragraph in the copy does ot only refer to Shitomir but also to the proceding paragraphs, and I am interested to show that the prosecution will clarify that the paragraph which mentions that all the 434 persons were given special treatment refers only to Shitomir and, therefore, wants to charge the witness with this or whether the context clearly shows that this paragraph refers to all the localities which could never have had anything to do with SK 4B.
PRESIDENT: Well, what you would like to do then is to introduce the entire document?
DR. REIDIGIR: Yes.
PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr. Hochwald.
MR. Hochwald: If the Tribunal please, the entire document is in evidence.
We have only made a part translation, but we have put the whole document into evidence.
So Dr. Riediger, of course,
PRESIDENT: Where is it?
MR. HOCHWALD: It is in the keeping of the General Secretary.
As far as I know. the General Secretary left the photostatic copy which is the exhibit to Dr. Reidiger over last night so that Dr.
PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Riediger, you may take from the document
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes, but I would like to har from the prosecution the charges of the defendant.
In my opinion the defendant has to
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Trubunal please, this document was intro not.
The only argument which we have to make is the argument that the document has probative value.
This fact is not denied by the defense.
I do not think that there is another argument from the part of the prosecution necessary at this time.
We will argue the
PRESIDENT: Have you introduced the whole document?
MR. HOCHWALD: We have introduced the whole document. It is the ruling of the Tribunal that the document is always introduced in its entirety.
What is before the court is only a partial translation but the document is introduced in its entirety.
PRESIDENT: Very well. Dr. Riediger, you can comment on this to any degree you desire in your closing argument. It isn't necessary that the matter be argued now. The prosecution has introduced the entire document. He h s translated a part so that he could examine the witness on it. The witness was cross examined on the part which Mr. Hochwald introduced, so there is nothing further to be done now. You have the document and you may quote as much of it as you desire in your document book.
MR. HOCHWALD: I only want to add, Your Honors, that these two documents which I introduced are among the situation reports which were at the disposal of the trial on. As Your Honors know, we have photostatic copies made of all these reports, whether we have them introduced into evidence or not, and these two documents were from the beginning of the tiral at the disposal of the defense, so the defense knows or could have known these documents.
PRESIDENT: Well, I think the matter is cleared up now, Dr. Riediger. All right, anything further on it, Dr. Riediger?
DR. RIEDIGER: No, thank you.
PRESIDENT: Do you have any redirect of your witness--any redirect examination of your witness, or are you finished with him?
DR. RIEDIGER: No. If I may, I have two more question to ask the witness. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q Dr. Haensch, you said yesterday that Shitomir did not belong to your commando district, in particular, as this would be impossible from the point of view of distance. You stated that Shitomir was about 700 kilometers away from your commando?
Rowno, not only did not belong to the commando area of SK 4B, so that the commando had nothing at all to do with Shitomir or Rowno, nothing even concerning personnel or anything else. Sonderkommando or Einsatzkommando--what could they have done in an area where civil administration existed? Apart from that, the figure "700 kilometers" I gave as an approximate. I have no map. And I merely mentioned this because I remember this approximately, that the distance by air to Kiev was 550 or 600 kilometers. I don't lmpw mpw jpw far tje ptjer 1/2;aces are away from Kiev, but during the discussion I heard when leaving last night that this is not quite right, 700 kilometers, but that it is 1,500 kilometers rather, the distance between those two cities from the area where the SK 4B was during my time.
Court Nol II, Case NO. IX.
Q. Dr. Haensch, how do you explain the circumstance that in the report of events of 27 March 1942, Document Book IIIA, page 92, No. 3236, and also in later ones, Shitomir, a special commander for the security police and the SD is named?
A. How shall I explain this. The fact is proven by the fact that during that time permanent officers of the German police were in the area of the civilian administration and, therefore, as I said yesterday, from that point of view it does not make sense that there should have been another police unit or another Einsatzkommando there.
Q. On the other hand, in reports of events which preceded this one, -- Your Honor, I shall bring this in detail in another document book, -- I would only like to start this question. On the other hand, in previous situation reports it is mentioned that parts of SK 4B were in Shitomir, Winniza, and Rowna, in the report of events of 12 January '42.
A. That is incorrect that it is always mentioned that parts were there, but it suddenly appears, this report of events, I believe, during the middle of January, and then suddenly they stop in between. I think I remember there is another report where this is not mentioned, and explanation.
Q. Do you consider the contents of the situation reports incorrect in so far?
A. Yes. I must consider them to be incorrect. SK 4B did not have any parts there, or had anything to do with these locations.
Q. Dr. Haensch, I would like to refer to the other document which was submitted yesterday. It is the report from the East of 5 June '42. This report also contains in it "Commmando Region Gorlovka". I quote: "At the end of April, beginning of May 1942, several large actions were carried out against partisans and communists. From 1,038 arrested persons, 727 received special treatment. Among them were 431 partisan, members of destruction battalions, saboteurs, plunderers, and also a few communist activists and NKVD agents". According to this, these events are supposed to have happened at the end of April, beginning of May 1942.
Did you hear anything about this, and to what extant did this action take place?
A. I already explained yesterday that at the en -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Riediger, the witness' first words already indicate the lact of necessity to go into this again. He says, "As I already explained yesterday". Now, if he has already explained, it is unnecessary for him to repeat his explanation. If you find there is something which he should state in addition to what he stated yesterday, some angle which he did not touch upon, then direct his attention precisely to that angle, but don't have him repeat the explanation he gave us yesterday.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, I do not intend to have the witness repeat his statements.
THE PRESIDENT: But you see how he started out, didn't you?
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes-- only I believe this was not quite clear yesterday when the witness explained it yesterday, and that is the reason ....
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is saying, "As I explained yesterday". Now, we don't want him to tell us what he explained yesterday. Let him tell what there is to state additionally to that. Call his attention to that. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q. Were those measures which were carried out by SK 4B itself?
A. These investigation or decisive measures which were carried out had nothing to do with SK 4B, but here there were large anti-partisan activities. I don't know any more now how many there were, but I know that such anti-partisan operations took place about that time, carried out by the special unit of the army assigned to this.
And I know that in individual cases, I don't know whether on one occasion or on two occasions. I don't know how many there were there, individual officials from the commando or subcommando were asked to support the secret field police.
Q. Were you present with SK 4B while these actions were carried out?
A. No. This was during the time when I was on my journey. I only know that shortly before either I knew that these actions were going to be carried out, but I don't know any more whether already then the request had been made to the commando to detail officials. I don't know that any more. I don't know whether I heard this afterwards in reports.
DR. RIEDIGER: I have no further questions to ask the witness, but I have another request. Yesterday the prosecution submitted two documents of importance. I, therefore ask that I might be allowed some time to obtain some evidence against this.
THE PRESIDENT: The defense counsel will always have an opportunity to present any evidence which is relevant. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you leave the stand, I would like to direct your attention to your own handwritten statement prepared this summer, which contains in all 36 pages. You recall this statement, do you?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware of the fact that in this long statement which you wrote up yourself that you do not mention the word "Jew" once?
Do you recall that? Now, please answer that "Yes" or "No".
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Very well. Was this question of the Jew so utterly unknown to you that it did not occur to you in writing, this long story of your activities, to mention the Jewish problem once?
A. Your Honor, this statement was made by me in order to correct and clarify questions which had been asked in previous interrogations. On the question of executions of Jews, merely because they were Jews, I was never questioned. The fact was brought to me for the first time not in the form of a question but in the form of a fact, that the fuehrerorder existed, after this affidavit which I made. I only commented on those question which were mentioned to me at the time.
Q. Very well. Now, on page 69 of your original, you relate a conversation with Heydrich, and you stated, "I recall that Heydrich impressed upon me always to keep before my eyes the cruelty of the Bolchevists". Heydrich said nothing about the Jews being Bolchevists? I ask you whether he did or not.
A. He did not say the word "Jew"
Q. He did not mention "Jews" at all in the entire conversation?
A. No.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. Very well. And he asked you that you were to look after the welfare of the kommando members relating to the proper accommodations and personal needs. Do you affirm that?
A. Yes, Your Honor, he was particularly keen on this and he emphasized this particularly, also towards Streckenbach, when there was a danger of typhoid fever.
Q. And he also impressed upon you the necessity of watching over the life of each German soldier. That is on page 6 of the original. Do you affirm that?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Very well. On page 14 of original, you relate in some detail an episode when the Army had ordered the search of a village, because, according to a report, German soldiers had been shot there and some of then killed or wounded. Do you recall that episode?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. And you say that upon investigation it was determined that no one had been shot at, no one had been wounded and no one had been killed, is that right?
A. Yes, your Honor.
Q. As a matter of fact, all that had happened was that A German's rifle had been fired off accidentally?
A. Yes. There were ........
Q. Very well, so therefore in some of these reports about atrocities committed on German soldiers, there was the possibility of error, wasn't there?
A. Yes, absolutely, as this case showed, your Honor.
Q. Yes. Do you know who it was who made the incorrect report originally? Was it a German officer?
A. That was -- I don't know whether it was an officer, but I presume so, but in any case it was a report which was received by the Army from some unit, some local unit there. Whether it was transient column I don't know, or whether the local commander sent it, I don't know, and this report was then sent on to the competent men with the Army who dealt with this.
That is why I remember this incident.
Q. But one officer was reprimanded, wasn't he, because of this incorrect report?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Very well. On page 15 of your original you stated that in executions you observed no excesses on the part of the kommando members?
A. Yes.
Q. How what excesses could there be? They performed the ultimate harm that can come to a human being. They killed him. Now what do you mean by an excess? When you have an execution you have the ultimate and complete excess of snuffing out the life of the subject. Now what do you mean by an excess? What more could they do to a man beside kill him?
A. Your Honor, the killing of people which was necessary on these occasions, they were not excesses. These were persons who were proven to be guilty.
Q. Witness, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. You said in your statement, "I never, not even subsequently, observed any excesses on the part of the kommando members, even at executions."
A. Your Honor, Mr. Wartenberg, I don't quite know now -- told me things and charged me with things which upset no very much and it appeared as if he thought as if people had been tortured.
Q. Very well. I understand what you mean. What you mean is that the victims were not subjected to torture or painful treatment prior to the moment that they were actually shot.
A. Yes.
Q. Very well. Your kommando was equipped with sub-machine guns, as well as rifles, that is correct, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, your kommando had a predominance of sub-machine guns, as against rifles?
A. Your Honor I don't know for sure any more; as far as I remember, it seams to me as if the men mostly had sub-machine guns. But I can't........
Q. All right, I just wanted to check on that. You say that certificates of death were made out. Do I understand that in each case of an execution, a death certificates was written out fir each person executed.
A. Your Honor. I did not say that.
Q. Well, I read from your affidavit or your statement "And the carrying out of the executions, including the issue of the certificate of death by a medical orderly."
A. No, your Honor, I could not have said that. I would like to compare it to the original.
DR. RIEDIGER: (Attorney for the defendant Haensch): In the German text, as far as I know, the sentence is not contained. I will just have a look.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, will you please do so.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I do think it would be advisable if the Secretary-General would get the exhibit.
THE PRESIDENT: The document itself. Would you please give me the German translation now?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, he is now trying to locate it -- on page 16 of the original, the first sentence onpage 16 of the original.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it reads here as I think I said it. It says here, "Including the determination of death by the medical officer, the responsible officer, or the Party official." In the original it probably says, "by the medical officer and the competent officer, or the General officer."
Q. (By the president) What was meant then is that after the execution one of your men, a medical orderly, or otherwise, made certain that the subject was actually dead. Is that what you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Not that an official death certificate was written out?
A. No.
Q. All right; still talking about executions, you say, "I do not recall either ever having heard a cry of pain."
A. Your Honor, I only wrote this into my affidavit, because of the charges made against me. I cannot remember during these events which I witnessed and which, as I can only repeat, of course, moved me very deeply, ever having heard a cry of pain. I must even say, I have never seen a movement or a sign, from these people. I never saw as far as I remember, any sign of emotion. That is what I am trying to explain.
Q. You mean that of these 60 whom you actually saw killed, not in one instance was there ever a cry of protest or of self-pity or of any indication that great sorrow was upon then because of what was about to happen?
A. Your Honor, no, as I said, I never heard a cry of pain or anything like that ever.
Q. On page 21, you say, "In this connection I must point again to the monstrous suspicion against me, that the persons to be executed were placed before a grave, shot, and their bodies thrown into it." Now what was monstrous about this? You yourself directed the execution and certainly they were shot and certainly their bodies were placed in the grave. Why do you use the phrase, "The monstrous suspicion against me."
A. Your Honor, this is in connection with my interrogations. This affidavit and I may explain this now; at my request to have an opportunity to explain, I was given this opportunity; after I had been asked to put my signature under the transcript, the contents of which did not give exactly what I had tried to express and in this transcript it was put in such a manner as if the people who were to be shot would be placed before the grave and were shot in front of the grave; and may I add here that I know for certain that this never happened and that special instructions were given from the execution Department that it had to be watched closely that the grave and the place of internment was not at the same location as the place where the persons concerned were being executed.
Q. From which department did that directive come?
A. Those were instructions which already existed, and, as far as I remember, they probably were given by the Einsatzgruppe, but it can only be like this because the Einsatzgruppe -
Q. Please answer the question. I asked you from which department did this directive come that you told us about?
A. These instructions concerning the way it was to be handled, accordind to special -
Q. Will you please answer that question. It is a very simple question. You have told us that there was a directive that the victims should not see the grave into which their bodies were to be placed. From where did these directives come?
A. From the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. From Einsatzgruppe C?
A. Einsatzgruppe C.
Q. Now, you do know, don't you, that in many, if not in most cases, the victims actually were placed right in front of the anti-tank ditch into which the bodies were to be later placed?
A. Your Honorr, I learnt this during the trial here in a few cases, or in one case in the trial here when this subject came up.
Q. Very well. All right. Let's proceed to something else. Now, how soon after your picture was taken did you leave for the East?