Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A Your Honor, I don't know exactly, but I can only say, as far as I remember, that would be perhaps about eight days later. Either that is what I said right at the beginning on my very first interrogation, in the last days of February, or in the first few days of March.
Q. Can you get this please? Just answer the question. Now you left about eight days after the picture was taken?
Q All right. Where were you living at the time? Where were you living at the time?
Q Where, what address?
Q Were you living there with your wife? be sent to her at another address? have my picture taken again. I myself never thought of it and never had the intention to do so; by phone I called up my parents from Berlin several times, and there my parents and my father asked me to have my picture taken, and, as far as I remember, your Honor, but I don't know for certain just now, I believe after my departure my wife travelled to my parents. your wife? giving the address of my parents' house. My wife, possibly, yes, I even believe it was so, at the time immediately afterwards visited my parents. This was connected with my mother's recovery. My wife visited my mother Court No. II, Case No. IX.
early in January and looked after her and then she helped her later on and at Neisse.
Q Where were your parents living?
Q At what number?
Q Who actually paid for the pictures, your wife or your parents?
A Your Honor, I don't know that any more now; I assume -parents were to pay or your wife was to pay?
A I don't know any more, Your Honor. Generally, I paid things myself; I presume that I might have paid, but I am not sure.
Q Who eventually got the pictures, your parents or your wife? that day?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will be returned to the defendants' dock.
Oh, you have another question?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD : Yes, if the Tribunal please, I will have two or three questions which came up during the examination. Here is the document, NO-4567, the affidavit of the witness and the witness possibly can read to the Tribunal now the sentence which was in question.
THE PRESIDENT: On page 16. Will you help him to find it, please, Mr. Hochwald. He seems to be having difficulty.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Yes, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it says page 13 here and then page 26, and the photostatic copy is done in such a manner that I cannot recognize it at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you find it, Mr. Hochwald?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD : If the Tribunal will kindly tell me -
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
that is a sentence about an orderly?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWAID: Page 16. I do think this is it, but I am not sure.
THE PRESIDENT: If it corresponds -
THE WITNESS: "Inclusive", your Honor, "Inclusive determination of death by the medical officer or by the officer, or by the trained NCO -- this was established."
THE PRESIDENT: That is what he explained, so that clears that up. BY MR. HORLICK- HOCHWALD:
Q Dr. Haensch, I have one question about your picture which was taken from you. Do you remember to whom you gave the order that the samples of these pictures should be sent to your parents? Did you give this order to the Witness Schreyer or did you give this order to somebody else? heard -- I -- probably gave the order immediately when the picture was made --it is true, at the time -- but it is possible that my wife came there later and said "I am leaving now to see my parents at Hirschfelde" and to send the pictures, but I don't know anymore. of yesterday, to Witness Schreyer, or a third person. I do not want you to tell the Tribunal what you head from the witness yesterday. I do want you to tell the Tribunal what you remember.
A Well, I can only tell you I don't know any more. I cannot remember it.
Q Another question. You have referred, when questioned by the Tribunal, you have referred to the interrogations which were carried out previous to your executing this affidavit, which is before the Tribunal and you have given the reason to the Tribunal that you never mentioned Court No. II, Case NO.
IX.
the word "Jews" in your affidavit for the simple reason that nobody asked you anything about Jews in these previous interrogations, is that correct?
A That is not correct. I did not say so, either. I said I was never asked before about the execution order and also I was not asked whether Jews were shot for being Jews only, but merely, I believe, during the first interrogation, immediately, I was shown reports which mentioned a great number of persons who were supposed to have been shot by my kommando at the time, among them Jews. Thus, merely in this connection I was told about this and charged with it. I was asked again afterwards in detail. In my affidavit I referred to those questions which had brought about misunderstandings and clarified them; that is, during the interrogations where these misunderstandings occurred, I tried to correct this with Mr. Wartenberg and Mr. Wartenberg said immediately, "Alright then, we will cross this out and then we will correct this, or make a new affidavit." a great number of Jews were executed? remember that? Did you yourself say something about the Jews in this interrogation previously? that this was one of the important questions of the interrogation? given to me and submitted to me and I immediately said, I said, that it is impossible, it is not understandable, because there were no Jews -that right? You yourself reacted to these reports by saying, by denying that there were so many Jews?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
then -well, can you tell the Tribunal what you told the interrogator then about executions in this interrogation. your first interrogation? You have been all the time referring to this. as I said during the interrogations and in my affidavit. During the interrogation I was in such a state of excitement -- as I was during these interrogations -- that I could not say at all what I wanted to say. I myself, was so upset because of these reports which the prosecutor gave me that I just could not say anything further and apart from that constantly charges were made against me and I get so upset about this and so excited that I could not give a reply.
Tribunal, about the sixty people who were killed in four executions, very detailed, about the time, the place and everything or just what did you tell him?
A Mr. Prosecutor, Mr. Wartenberg did not ask me about this.
Mr. Wartenberg wanted -
Q I do not want you to tell --tell us "no" if you like. Tell us now, "I did tell him that", or "I did not tell him that"; you answered that, "I was not asked by Mr. Wartenberg"; -- you were asked by me, and not by Mr. Wartenberg. me to describe one execution to him. I was to describe an execution to him from my memory; and there he wanted me to name a total num ber of people killed. That is what he wanted to have at the time -- the total figure was impossible for me to give. I constantly refused to do this.
Q Why did you do that? The witness doesn't answer, and tells a story which is no answer to the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Please put the question again, and we will see that you get an answer.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Did Mr. Wartenberg ask you whether you knew how many peopl were shot during your time?
THE PRESIDENT: Now please answer that -- yes or no?
A (By the witness) Yes.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Did you not yesterday, limit this number very specifically to approximately sixty people who were shot in four execution?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, or no?
A (By the witness) Yes.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Did you give this same explanation and information to Mr. Wartenberg?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes or no?
A (By the witness) I replied to his question, "How many were shot during one execution? " -- that is what he wanted to know -I told him, as far as I remember it must have been small groups -in my opinion a group of persons numbering between fifteen and thirty. That was the impression I got. I named this figure to Mr. "artenberg.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Did you tell that in the first interrogation on the 8th of July 1947?
A (By the witness) I no longer knew. I don't think so. I don't think I was asked. time?
THE PRESIDENT: But you didn't finish your question, Mr. Hochwald.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) The question, is -- Do you remember when the question, "How many people were killed during your time", was put to you the first time.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you remember now?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. He does remember. Put your next question.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Was that the first interrogation in Nuernberg? to you for the first time?
Q How many people were shot in your time? question was, for the first time, put to you?
Q Why did you do that? Why did you do that? at that moment--I well--I could not remember just then what, and how many persons were killed at the time, because they had to be shot, because I knew -- I immediately remembered -- the SK 4-B had -- I emphasize this -- to execute smaller groups, and I ....
Q Witness, you do not answer my--My I? -- You do not answer my question. I want to tell the Tribunal whether you gave to the interrogator, when first interrogated here in Nuenberg, the same information about these four executions -- whether sixty people were killed at three different places which you have stated here in direct and cross examinations.
Nothing else do I want to hear from you -
about examinations? Is that right or not?
A That is not true. I said, I refused to name -- when I was tortured again and again, in the end -- please understand me, now -I was so excited when I was asked again and again for a figure, I said "No, I cannot do this, I cannot name a figure. It would not have any basis." He did not ask me for a figure -- for a certain figure, a total figure "what happened during your time " -- and he later asked for the figures of the three executions mentioned -- I said fifteen to thirty persons.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, when you use the word "tirture", I presume you meant figuratively?
THE WITNESS: Yes. That is what I meant.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Is it not true that I have asked you the same question; I have asked you know many people were shot by your kommando during your time. You said, "approximately sixty." Absolutely the same question that was put to you in the interrogation. I, also, want an actual figure. A general figure -- nothing else.
A No, Mr. Hochwald-
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid now it is becoming argument.
MR. HOCHWALD: I withdraw the question. I only want to put in, the interrogation in question, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all right.
MR. HOCHWALD: This is Document NO-5572, and that will be Prosecution Exhibit 187, as far as I know.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Dr. Riediger, do you want to say anything further, before we withdraw the witness?
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, may I use this occasion to say that an expert should determine how old the document is in the photograph book. A chemical expert find out when this entry was made, approximately, whether these entires were made -- at least whether they were made several years age. It seems to me that this would clarify the case. The book can be put at the disposal of the Tribunal at any time.
MR. HOCHWALD: It is a matter of course that the Prosecution has no objection against such a submission by Defense counsel. However, I think it is premature at this time. It is the contention of the Prosecution that it would be more convenient to first hear the Court witness, who herself, allegedly made these entires, and then, eventually, call an expert on the hand-writing.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. RIEDIGER: At the proper time I shall repeat my request.
THE PRESIDENT: That will be entirely in order.
The witness will be returned to the defendants' dock. And the defendant Nosske will be taken into the witness stand.
Dr. Riediger please, I would suggest that you give the exhibits, numbers -- defendant exhibit numbers -- then they can officially become part of the records of the Tribunal.
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: If you have not yet presented any exhibits, you may start with "One." I would suggest you to do that, Dr. Riediger.
I would suggest -
DR. RIEDIGER: I beg your pardon, your Honor. I overlooked that a new document is being submitted now. Please give me an opportunity to look at this, and state my opinion.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, does this have to do with the case just finished.
Mr. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I just have introduced the interrogation about which the cross examination was concerned. This is new. This is a new document, 5572. And I think it is Prosecution Exhibit 187, is that right?
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: Correct.
MR. HOCHWALD: And I have offered it as such, about ten minutes age.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, the document is rather long, and I shall hardly be able to read it through at the moment. I therefore want to ask that I be permitted to refer to this document later on, Iwant to reserve this right. I must give it to the defendant Haensch first; in particular, I must reserve the right to make objection against the submission of this document. I can't do this at the moment, of course, because I don't knew the contents.
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, the contents of the document, certainly, are not based for objection by Defense counsel. Defense counsel has the possibility of saying the document is a forgery, or to say it has no probative value -- but as to the contents -
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in any event, Dr. Riediger has the right to examine it, and he cannot do it in a few seconds.
MR. HOCHWALD: I only wanted to make this clear.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. So that we will reserve to Dr. Riediger every right and every protection which goes with the submission of a document. But I would suggest that immediately, Dr. Riediger, you present to the Tribunal these exhibits. Just number them -- one, two, three -- so that officially they will become part of the records.
DR. RIEDIGER: I submit the writing the orders as Exhibit No. 1;
and I refer to the loose page which is contained in the pad. I submit as Exhibit No. 2, two negative prints -- two negatives concerning the person of the witness Haensch. Also, as Exhibit No. 3, I submit a book containing the orders for photographs, and draw your attention to number 391, page 94, of 21 February 1942.
And also, as No. 4 I submit a photograph of the witness.
DR. HOCHWALD: The Prosecution has no objection against the submission of these exhibits, but reserves the right to have then examined at a later date by experts. The books, and, eventually, also the negatives.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The exhibits will be accepted, and the Secretary General is instructed that Exhibit I will include, in addition to the black pad, the photostatic page. Exhibit 2 will include, in addition to the negatives, the envelope in which the negatives were contained, and the box in which the negatives and envelope were contained.
GUSTAV NOSSKE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SPAIGHT: Raise your right hand, witness, and repeat after me: pure truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPAIGHT: You may be seated.
DR. HOFFMANN (for the defendant Nosske): Your Honors, I would like to start the evidence in the case by questioning the witness himself.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Hoffmann. BY DR. HOFFMANN: the prison? tenable and unethical.
Q Witness, when ;you received the order at the time, did you feel to be an official, or a soldier -- or what attitude did you have concerning your office? tary assignment, as part of the army. I was under martial law-and martial law applied to me.
Q Witness, why did you consider this order immoral, being a soldier? in order to break up Bolshevism -- which was the aim of the war -- to kill a section of the population indiscriminately merely for that purpose.
of Bolshevism, I could not recognize, and could not realize, that it should be necessary for our own security to kill women and children. carrying out the order?
Q What did you reply to me at the time? the order in Pretzsch, could I have evaded carrying out this order. If I had said that I would never carry out this order, I would have been put before a court-martial, and would have been shot. If I had escaped, they would have seized me, and the same result would have been the consequence. And the public would never have heard why, and my relatives would have considered me dishonored, because they would only be told that I had deserted.
Q Witness, could you have turned to the press? had no relations with the press, and it just did not occur to me to approach the press at all, because this would be like giving myself up to an authority, so that they could arrest me. it -- and since you thought you could not evade it, what way-out did you find?
A I could only wait. I could not imagine at all whether, and how, such an order would ever to carried out. I could only hope that I myself would never be put into such a situation where I would have to carry out this order, or that any other circumstances might arise which might make it possible for me not carry out this order.
Q Witness, I would like to talk about you career now. Please tell the Tribunal very briefly how you career was, until the year 1933/
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Hoffmann, it is so close to the recess period. Don't you think it might be well to recess now, and then take up the curriculum vitae?
DR. HOFFMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, before we start with the examination of the defendant Noske, may I first make a motion that the defendant Braune be excused form the session this afternoon, since he expects afternoon visit from his wife.
THE PRESIDENT: In order that the defendant Braune may be available when his wife arrives, he may be excused from attendance in court this afternoon. BY DR HOFFMANN: your life history up to the year of 1933? school for four years, afterwards, the high school in Halle. There II graduated in 1922. Since the money for my university studies was lacking, I started as an apprentice at the Halle branch of the Deutsche Bank and Diskonto Gesellschaft and, after an apprenticeship of two years, until the year of 1925, I remained in the banking business. Then I started my studies in political science and law. In 1930 I passed my first State examination; in 1933 I was in legal training as a legal referendar. in any other organization?
A No, I neither belonged to the Party, nor any organization. At this time I had no kind of political interests. I spent my leisure time rowing or with other friends without any political tendency playing any part among us.
Q In what position were you when Hitler came to power in 1933? as a referendar in the courts. Furthermore, I was active as no auxiliary worker with an attorney for which I got paid a small amount.
Q How old were you then?
referendar?
A The marches and mass meetings of the Party didn't have any attraction for me, and I did not participate in them. But when the order was given that young lawyers were to join the Party, or one of its organizations, I joined the party without any particular reluctance, but also without any special enthusiasm.
Q Exactly when did you join the Party?
Q Did you join any other organization outside the Party?
A Yes, in the summer of 1933 I joined the SA. That had the following reasons. As I have already described, I worked for an attorney as an aide. This attorney was the legal consultant for an SA unit, but because of his professional activity, which kept him very busy, he could no longer perform this activity. He, therefore, asked me that I should take over this legal information service in his stcad. Connected with that was that I joined the SA. or the SA?
A No. I neither held a position nor did I do any service in the SA. I were the SA uniform, namely the uniform of a private in the SA, and I performed the service of legal consultant for this SA unit. How did this develop from 1933 on until the completion of your legal training? examination as assessor, which enabled me to become a judge, district attorney, or just a lawyer, but a position, or any final definite position was not connected with this. In the letters of the Ministry of Justice which confirmed to me the fact that I had passed the examination, it said that for the next few years one could not count on such a position since in Prussia at that time more than 3,000 assessors were available but any 250 could be employed annually.
or did you have to earn a living? a job. The occasional deputizing for judges who were on furlough or who were sick was not sufficient to make a living. Therefore I had to find a permanent job.
Q What did you do to secure such a position; did you go to various authorities or agencies? ministries, among them the Finance Ministry, the Ministry of Interior, and after a long time the Ministry of the Interior was the only one which reacted to such an application. I was allowed to introduce myself, and I was accepted professionally.
Q When and where were you called? The time was the 1st of June, 1935. government in Aachen? isis customary in such a district government, I was occupied with frontier matters.
Q How long did this activity last?
Q Where were you transferred then? to the Border Police which was a part of the Gestapo and was being organizationally built up as such. This included the fact that I was active with the State Police in an informational capacity, and I performed this activity in the State Police office in Aachen, which was in the same building as the district headquarters with whom I had worked thus far.
Q How long did this position last? provisional year expired.
Q And after this what happened? to Frankfurt on the Oder River, and there I was given the directorship of the State Police Agency in Frankfurt with the special mission to carry out the organization of the Border Police which had already been approved. Police Agency in Frankfurt on the Oder?
A The district was very great. It corresponded to the district area of Frankfurt on the Oder. It contained about 800,000 inhabitants. transferred to the Gestapo by the Ministry of the Interior? I did not have the slightest misgivings for already during my informational work in Aachen I got to know the activity of the Gestapo in its legal foundations. The State Police had the job to prosecute political; crimes, and in this capacity it is an auxiliary organ of the State prosecution, just like the criminal police was the auxiliary organ to the State prosecution for crime. intelligence. That is the mission to prevent the spying and detecting of state secrets. This is an activity as it is carried on in all modern states of the world, especially in the Western World, and as we know it as the Surete in France and Belgium and as the Second Bureau of the Surete, which corresponds to the counter-intelligence.
Q Witness, didn't you know the funny feeling that people had about the Gestapo in Germany, was this not known to you?
A I must say honestly, no. At least I had lost this feeling when I took up my job, not because nothing could have happened to me any more, but because things only happened actually which I could approve, even if applying the strictest standard, and I could approve of it as justified and moral. Furthermore one has to consider that these were the years 1936 to 1939, that is to the outbreak of war and that here no matters can be brought in, which at a later period couldn't be approved by me, under any circumstances. concentration camps in Germany, did you not? Officially I did not hear their names, but they were known to me.
Q Didn't you undertake to send people to these concentration camps? State Police Agency, or rather to the authority of a director of such an agency to send people to concentration camps. Only the Chief of the Security Police personally held this authority. As far as the regional agencies were concerned, it was only their obligation to report. Reporting was done by transmitting a carbon copy of the entire action, of the entire record, and then a duplicate of the files which was to be filed in the central index in Berlin. Sending people to a concentration camp was prepared by the Office for Protective Custody in Berlin. Suggestions were made by the expert office of the RSHA, and the order to send the person there was always signed personally by the Chief of the Security Police, that is Heydrich at the time.