&19 Court 2, Case 9
Q.Well, let us make it very specific. Prior to September 1, 1939, were any Jews sent to concentration camps because they were Jews?
A.Through my Police Security activity there were not, and I do not assume that it happened owing to the Security Police activity of other state police chiefs.
Q.Well, then you tell us that so far as you knew prior to September 1, 1939, no Jews were sent to concentration camps because they were Jews?
A.Hot through my Police Security work. Yes, I confirm that.
Q.So far as you know generally, not only your own particular district but in all of Germany, no Fews were sent to concentration camps because they were Jews?
A.Basic instructions to arrest any Jews only because they were Jews-----
Q.Don't tell me what the basic instructions were. Please answer the question. Did you of your own personal knowledge know that any Jews were sent to concentration camps prior to September 1, 1939, because they were Jews?
A.No.
Q.Did you know of any Jews being sent to concentration camps after September 1, 1939, because they were Jews?
Q.Did you have a hand in sending any to concentration camps?
A.No.
Q.Why were they sent to concentration camps after September 1, 1939?
A.I cannot imagine this either, because I was not doing that kind of work which was concerned with this problem.
Q.Did you disapprove of that?
A.Yes, I disapproved of it.
Q.Very well. Now when you heard this speech by Heydrich and Streckenbach that you were to go into Russia and liquidate Jews, did you believe that that was a necessary development of the antiSemitic program of the Nazi Party?
A.No.
Q.You said that Streckenbach indicated that the Eastern Jews were the most important bearers of Bolshevism and that the main purpose of the German forces was to destroy Bolshevism. Did you agree with that proposition?
A.I did not agree with the extermination of the Eastern Jews without making any distinctions.
Q.Did you believe that the Jews were a threat to the Reich?
A.I could not judge that, and I doubted it.
Q.You did not believe that they were a threat to the Reich?
A.I could not judge it; I could not realize it.
Q.Did you believe in Hitler?
A.In general I believed that he wanted the best for the German people.
Q.When you made your speech to the men, did you tell them about the Fuehrer Order?
A.No.
Q.Did you tell them about your orders in Russia, what you were to do?
A.No. I only spoke general words, about discipline ---
Q.Here you are, the commanding officer of an organization of a military organization in the field, and you make a speech to them and you don't tell them what their instructions are?
A.Mr. President, the circumstances in this connection did not make this possible. he men had been lined up in the street, German speaking people were standing around, and, therefore, I could not possibly tell the men about one of the most secret orders.
Q.Well, did you tell them privately then?
A.Of course. I was stationed together with the staff of the Einsatzgruppen in several garrisons at first.
Q.Did you tell your men of Einsatzkommando 12 about the Fuehere order?
A.I had to because the officers would have addressed me concerning this; what is going on here, whether I didn't know anything about that. Of course I had to tell them ---
Q.Very well. Now you told then about the Fuehrer order which called for the liquidation of Jews, gypsies, Communists functionaries and certain Asiatic or social inferiors. Did you after you spoke to them of the order then say, "Now, I don't want you to obey this order because I do not agree with it?"
Did you add that?
A.Your Honor, such an order I could not give, and I did not give.
Q.So then the Tribunal may draw from what you have just said that you passed on this order to your man who took orders from you, and you did not add any veto or prohibition to the execution of the order, is that correct?
A.I arranged it in such a manner that those men were in my hands and depended on me.
Q.Well, very often it happened as you testified here that your kommando was far away from you and you couldn't reach them. You couldn't reach them by physical contact; you couldn't reach them by communication. Couldn't they then have been executing the order, the Fuehrer order, to kill the Jews?
A.Your Honor, if you describe that situation and consider that period, - there were the following circumstances of which I was able to tell the men because they were orders of the Einsatzgruppen chief or generally known.--
Q.Well, then now, do you tell us that you instructed them not to obey the Fuehrer order? Is that what you tell us now?
A.For a certain period, yes, insofar as they were in a foreign territory where they had to know that the Fuehrer order was not to be carried out in foreign territory and not on the flat land.
Q.On the flat land? But they could kill them up in the high lands? Is that you want to tell us?
A.Your loner, the expression flat land means for us the village - not the city - the rural districts, as it has been mentioned here previously by other witnesses.
Q.Let us be precise about this. I asked you if you passed on the Fuehrer order to kill Jews and others, You said that you did not do it in this public speech because there were German-speaking people about and this was a secret order. You added, however, you told the men privately that they had to execute this Fuehrer order. Then I asked you if you added to that instruction that although they heard the order, they were not to obey it. You said, "No." I asked you then if it wouldn't be proper to draw from what you had said that you had passed on an order and had never in any way vetoed it, and, therefore, it was being executed by your men. Then you said, "Well, but I had immediate contact with the men." Then we called your attention that you had testified that these men. were often so far away from you that you couldn't control them. New that brings it up to date.
Now I ask you, whether you ever told them directly that they were not to obey the Fuehrer order?
A.No. Your Honor, but I told them that they had to obey my orders and were only to do what I told them and when. For example -
Q.And what you told them was to obey the Fuehrer order. That is what you had told them, wasn't it?
A.To obey my orders.
Q.And what were your orders?
A.My orders were - for example, when they were carrying out the harvesting action there was the order from the Einsatzgruppen chief which was generally valid that in the flat land, in the rural district, the Fuehrer order was not to be carried out. The order was that in foreign territory the Fuehrer order also was not to be applied. I could tell them that because it was a well-known order from the Einsatzgruppen chief -
Q.Then you changed your statement which you made just a moment ago that you never told the men not to obey the Fuehrer order? You changed the statement which you made just a moment ago that you had vetoed the order? Do you change that?
A.No. Your Honor, I do not change it. I see no contradiction.
Q.You see no contradiction from your very direct statement that you never vetoed the Order and your statement that you told the men not to obey it? You see no contradiction in that? Suppose you think it over during the fifteen minutes, and then tell us after the recess whether there is any contradiction in those two statements.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is again in session.
DR. RATZ:Dr. Ratz for the defendant von Radetzky. Your Honor, I ask that the defendant von Radetzky be excused from tommorows' session, Wednesday, so that I can prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT:The defendant von Radetzky will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow so that he may prepare his defense. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.Witness, in answering several questions, put to you by Mr. Walton on the number of executions performed by Einsatzgruppe D, it was indicated on page 20 of Document Book II-D, that the total figure of executions was 54,000. Then later on in Document Book II-D, page 28, the total figure of executions performed by Einsatzgruppe-D was 75,881, and, you confirmed that Einsatzcommando XII contributed whatever number the figures would show towards this total of 75, 881; that Einsatzcommando XII was included in the commandos was included in the commandos whose activities had brought about a total of 75,881 executions up to the time indicated, is that correct?
A.Yes.
Q.Now why did you make such a distinction between this total figure of 75,881 and the 90,000 indicated by the defendant Ohlendorf, which covers a much larger period. Why do you distinguish between 75,000 and 90,000 a matter of 15,000?
A.Your Honor, when I commented on this and gave my explanation for this, I wanted and could only say that in the total figures of the Einsatzgruppe-D my numbers were necessarily included, that they just happened to be included in the figure 54,000, or 70,000, I didn't mean to express.
Q.Well, the figure 75,881 is a figure taken from an official report, that is correct, isn't it?
A.Yes, but I can not say anything about how this report was drawn up and about the correctness of this figure. I never knew of it before, and I find out from the document here without knowing anything about it.
Q.In the same document book, on page 52, there is a reference made to 5,000 Jews rounded up in each town by Einsatzgruppe-D, after a statement that 13,000 odd Jews and Communists had been executed. I ask you, how many Jews you rounded up during the period that you were in Russia?
A.Your Honor, that is the gist of my testimony that I was not in a position to go to any city but Nikolzjew, in which such measures would have been necessary; I must go further and say, I never got into any city at all.
Q.Did you round up any Jews during all the time that you were in Russia?
A.No, I had no special opportunity.
Q.All right. Now, let's sum up the situation: You shot no Jews, you arrested no Jews, you rounded up no Jews, is right?
A.Yes.
Q.The only contact you ever had with the Jews was when you led six or seven-thousand of them across the river?
A.In this connection, yes. In connection with the general Security Police measures, no.
Q.Well, what did you have to do with the Jews?
A.If Jews were among those people against whom I had to carry out some investigation , or measures to be taken, they were arrested along with the others, but I already said they were arrested as suspect to have committed something , not because they were Jews.
Q.Neither did you when you were in the Gestapo, nor the time that you were in the Security Police, you never arrested a man because he was a Jew; you never maltreated him because he was a Jew. You never subjected him to any discomfort because he was a Jew, is that correct?
A.Until the time of the war, absolutely.
Q.Well, what about after the war, or the starting of it?
A.After the war began I was no longer in a State Police executive function,until I took over the office in Duesseldorf.
Q.The statement is correct, that during your whole life, we will make it broader than what was said before, you never killed a Jew, you never ordered the death of a Jew, you never ordered the arrest of a Jew, you never maltreated a Jew, you never in any way caused discomfort inconveneince or a heartache to a Jew because he was a Jew, is that right?
A.Not just because he was a Jew, but at the time at Duesseldorf, it is possible that on the basis of special instructions several arrests were made.
Q.That is the time of the half-Jew incident?
A. it is the time, I whole time I was active in Duesseldorf.
Q.Are you referring to the episode of the half-Jew, which you described heretofore?
A.This appertains to that time.
Q.Yes, are you referring to this half-Jew that you arrested?
A.No. when sometime or other some special occasion existed, which I can not remember, I only want to reconcile them with my conscience, and I didn't want to absolutely exclude it for this time.
Q.Do you admit that you never arrested a whole Jew, but you may have arrested a half-Jew? You will grant us that much. In all you life you may have arrested half a Jew, is that whet it comes down to now? Is that the concession you are making, that you admit having arrested half a Jew?
A.Not only because he was a half-Jew.
Q.Well, then, you never arrested the one-half of his body; you didn't arrest the one-half which was Jewish but you did arrest the other half which was not Jewish, is that what you are telling us now?
A.Your Honor, I can not find an answer to give to this.
Q.Well, listen witness. You must admit that it is pretty difficult to accept the fact that a member of the SS, a member on the Gestapo, a member of the SD, of the SP, of the Einsatzgruppe, or the Nazi Party, who "heiled Hitler" for twelve years, who knew of the constant, very progressive campaign against the Jew, you must admit it is a little difficult to assume when a man tells us that in all these years he never once laid a rough hand on a Jew, you will admit that is a little extraordinary, don't you?
You admit that is a little unusual?
A.Only a man can understand it who knew the conditions. That in our Security Police Mission, at that time I didn't get any special Jewish orders besides the one I have mentioned, and, I personally and in my attitude had no cause just to be rough simply because they were Jews.
Q.Well, how do you explain, witness, that the chief of your organization in the field had admitted that the report showed that 90,000 were executed by all the commandos in that group. If you don't want to accept the 90,000, take a figure less than that. Let's take one-half. Let's say that 45,000 were executed. How do you explain that although your commando was one of the five in the group, that it could have avoided, and did avoid the killing of one, single, solitary Jew, when your orders were specifically to kill Jews?
A.Your Honor, this can be explained by the following: First of all this figure which you assume to be 45,000 in this case does not at all include the number who were shot merely as Jews. I am con inced that I can say from the report that a very large part of these executions happened as the result of the special order. The number, 90,000, which is given here as a total are not executions, just on the basis of the Fuehrer Order, but the numerous executions of Partisans, sabotuers or sabotage cases, and other cases, which take up a large part in this figure, and, my personal assignment, I would say, the good forture i and my commander had in that assignment brought with it the fact that until October I had no chance to apply the Hitler Order, because I was not assigned in a city where measures were carried out, because I was in a foreign territory in which the Hitler Order did not need to be applied, and in the following time, from November on, I was active in a territory far away from the group, with a small remainder, and in a Steppe area where no Jewish question had to be solved, and I on the basis of my attitude did not look for any opportunity to arrest any one.
Q.There were no Jews in the Steppe area?
A.I think a documentary source of material about Jewish settlements will show that in this sparsely settled area there was hardly any Jewish population, and, if so, one would have had to look for them individually, and this special searching I did not conscientiously engage in.
Q.Then you have had nothing to do with whole Jews, half-Jews, or Steppe-Jews?
A.Your Honor, this is a distinction which I .....
Q.Witness, do you admit that any Jews were killed by Einsatzgruppe-D in Russia in accordance with the Fuehrer Order?
A.Yes.
Q.And you put the blame on the other commandos, that Einsatzcommando XII never executed any Jews?
A.I don't put the blame on the other Einsatzcommandos, but it was unfortunate for other Einsatz-commandos to be put in a situation where they had to carry it out. If I had come to the Crimea, for example, then I probably would have had to carry out the Order, and not to have evaded it, as I was able to do here.
Q.All right. Now, you would have carried out the Order, if you had found some Jews?
A.If I had received the Order, and could not have evaded the Order any longer in any other manner, in other words, if the final consequence would have compelled me to be shot myself, then I would have carried out the Order.
QWell, there is no question about your having received the Order. You need not indulge in that supposition, you did receive the order, didn't you?
AYes, the Fuehrer order.
QYes, you had the Fuehrer order. And let's suppose that you were confronted with five-hundred Jews, and you had this Fuehrer Order in your hands, would you execute them?
AIf I had been in a situation where the Einsatzgruppe chief would have been in a position to reprimand me for disobeying the Hitler Order, and had stressed it, then probably I would have done it.
QYou would have killed the five-hundred Jews?
AIf no other possibility to evade it would have been opened to me, probably.
QIf the chief had told you, if you don't do this you would have been reprimanded, then you would have killed the Jews?
AWell, not reprimanded, but if I had refused to obey the Order, and would then have to suffer the consequences of my own shooting, I probably would have obeyed the Order.
QWe were discussing just before the recess the instructions you gave to your commando. First, you made a speech to them, and in your speech you told them to obey orders, that is correct, isn't it?
AIn this speech which I held at Schessburg, I appealed for discipline, and to their obedience towards me.
QYes, "obedience to me" meant obedience to orders?
AObedience to the Einsatz-leader, to the commando commanding officer.
QVery well. You have answered that. Then later on you told them privately about the Fuehrer Order?
AI told the officers and the men whom I had collected there, but I didn't want to keep this from all of them; I told them about this Fuehrer Order, and I told them to obey my orders, that is, to do what I told them to do.
QDid you tell them not to obey the Fuehrer Order?
AI didn't tell them not to carry out the Fuehrer Order for all time but to follow my directives, and one of my instructions which I gave them for the first time was the basis directive that in the rural districts the Fuehrer Order was not applicable. The officers were satisfied, I think, that they did not need to do such work, as they really were not ambitious to do it, and when they learned they didn't have to carry it out, I had to just send them off without any worry. That was at the time before the territory was declared to be under Roumanian sovereignity.
QSofar as the rural districts were concerned, you vetoed the Fuehrer Order?
ANot I vetoed it, but it was a rule or regulation which had been passed by the Einsatzgruppe chief in agreement with the Army, and this applied of course also to my commando.
QThat no Jews were to be killed in the rural districts?
AYes.
QWhat regulation was that?
AThat is the directive which the Einsatzgruppe-chief Ohlendorf had given, and which he mentioned at various times on the witness stand, and where he added that Himmler in October 1941 no longer wanted such consideration for the Army.
QThen you didn't in any way modify the Fuehrer Order, sofar as you were concerned; the Fuehrer Order still remained; you merely passed a limitation which Ohlendorf had submitted, that is right, isn't it?
AYes.
QSo the Fuehrer Order still remained in all its force and vigor, outside of the rural districts?
AYes.
QSo that when your commando, or when men of your commando were away from you, where you could not control them, they could execute Jews?
AThat unfortunately is the special circumstance which applied to my commando.
QYes.
AThat it was not put in the unfortunate situation to be located in a city to carry out such measures there.
QDo you exclude the complete possibility that some member of your command, or some members of your command, or some entire commando executed Jews because they were Jews?
AWell, I can not exclude the complete possibility, but I am convinced that the men for whom the execution of such terrible measures was unpleasant would not have gone on their own part to carry out something which I, or the Einsatzgruppe chief had liberated them from.
QBut you didn't liberate them from it in the cities?
AI didn't get into any city.
QHow about your own men when they were away from you. You told us they were away so far from you that you could not control their actions?
AThat was only some Teilkommandos, in the area of the Ethnic German territory, that it is the Roumanian Sovereign territory, and for this time the same exception is valid which has been mentioned in another connection before, namely, that we refused in this foreign territory to apply the Fuehrer Order, that is valid for Odessa and for other cases, and this was always expressly emphasized for those areas, that if they were foreign areas it was an exception, the Fuehrer Order was not to be carried out and I was glad that I was in a position to move into an area where this exception of not applying the Fuehrer Order was valid. If this had not been the case, it would have been my misfortune, and I would not have been spared this thing, namely, what the commandos on the march with the troops had to do.
QThen if you had not had all these special circumstances, then you would have killed Jews, too, just as the other commando-leaders did?
AIf I saw no other way of evading this Order, as I have already said, if the final consequences would have been valid for me, yes, I would have had to do it.
9 Dec 1947_A_MSD_22_1_Gross (Lea)
QIf you had to decide between killing 500 Jews and disobeying orders you would have killed the 500 Jews?
AIf I have the choice under such circumstances to have to die myself or to have to let the other die then I would have preferred not to die myself because with my death I could not have prevented the result for in my stead an other man would have been ordered to take my place and to carry out the order.
QWould you have confided with your conscience when you had to decide between the death of 500 innocent people and yourself?
AWell I was spared that situation. I cannot quite imagine it.
QBut you are not going to be spared it here because you presented it. Now, you are before 500 innocent people, men, women, and children Jews - and you are presented with this order to kill them. Now, are you going to confer with your conscience and if so what is going to be your conclusion?
AI would have taken it upon my conscience.
QAnd you would have killed them?
AI would have probably done it.
QYes. All right, that's all. You may continue with the examination, Dr. Hoffmann, if you have any further questions to put to him.
Just one other thing. Referring to these figures, Dr. Hoffmann, which you presented to me the witness had stated with all the emphasis which he could summon to his words that every committment to a concentration camp via the Gestapo was approved by Heydrich, not only approved, that he reviewed the case and then later by Kaltenbrunner. I ask you, witness, if you still stand on that statement?
AYour Honor, I once more confirm that during the period up to the War when I was the director of a State Police office I personally never saw it any differently than that an order to commit someone into a concentration camp was only signed by the Chief of the State Police Heydrich. I confirm this expressly and I know it from so many comrades 9 Dec 1947_A_22_2_Gross (Lea) who were also active at that time and that it was not different with them either.
QYou stated very conclusively that you knew that Heydrich reviewed every case of a committment to a concentration camp via the Gestapo. Do you confirm that statement?
AI confirm it from my own experience in view of my own activity. I personally never experienced it differently and the Security Police had no different way of handling it.
QIf we tell you that at the beginning of the War there were at least 25,000 prisoners in concentration camps you want to tell us that Heydrich had reviewed everyone of these cases?
AI know that of these 25,000 at the beginning of the War about 8 to 10,000 were political prisoners who for security police reasons were committed into concentration camps and I am convinced that in the same manner as I know it from my own police activity that these political prisoners of the Gestapo were only put in the concentration camps on the basis of the committment order which bore the signature of Heydrich or a facsimile stamp of it.
QYou confirm that up to the beginning of the War Heydrich himself reviewed 8 to 10,000 cases of committments to concentration camps?
AI am supported in my conviction by the fact that the protective custody referent told me he always went to Mueller or Heydrich with various cases and got the confirmation for these committments.
QDoes it occur to you, witness, that it clashes somewhat with common sense and observation that a busy man like Heydrich would not have the time to personally review 8 to 10,000 cases of people being sent to the concentration camps? Does that occur to you?
A.Your Honor, this thought does not occur to me because it corresponds to the truth and because I can confirm this by dozens of witnesses. I went to call any State Police officer into the witness stand and he must or will only confirm again and again what I know from my own experience. Therefore, I can make this explanation in my conscience.
9 Dec 1947_ A_MSD_22_3_Gross (Lea)
QNow you have stated in the most emphatic manner possible that you will and can call many witness we support you, that you know from your own knowledge that 8 to 10,000 cases of concentration camp committments were reviewed by Heydrich before the people were sent to a concentration camp committments were reviewed by Heydrich before the people were sent to a concentration camp. Now, we ask you how is it that you can remember with such vividness and with such emphasis this number that were sent to concentration camps via the Gestapo but you cannot remember how many people you ordered killed in Russia.
AYour Honor, this question can be simply answered, because I only heard this number of 8 to 10,900 only a short time ago and this was confirmed to me by someone. It was not a matter of what I know from my own experiences for from that time I cannot remember any number of people who were in concentration camps. I never knew such a number. I only knew those cases who were in the concentration camp from my district. Even for that I cannot give a definite number.
QThen your explanation is that you can remember more clearly a figure told to you by someone than your own experiences of sending someone to his death?
AYour Honor, this last mentioned figure _ I want to be quite frank _ I got to knew particularly from reading the record and I have convinced myself of it the last few days.
QWe ask you as the final question: how many people did you ordered killed in Russia?
ATo the best of my conscience I cannot answer with a definite figure.
QVery well, that's all.
Any re_direct examination, Dr. Hoffmann?
MR. HOFFMANN:May I just ask a few question, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Certainly by all means.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HOFFMANN:
QWitness, when you were in Duesseldorf in the year 1944 and when you refused to obey an order of the Higher SS and Police Leader didn't you at that time also have to fear that you would he punished by death under certain circumstances? Just answer yes or no.
AYes.
QAs the President put to you to what decision you would had taken if you had to shoot 500 innocent people or would rather have chosen death itself. Could you give the answer very clearly if you remember what you risked in Duesseldorf?
AWell in this connection -
QI just want to know yes or no.
What do you think of this?
THE PRESIDENT:We don't quite catch the question, Dr. Hoffmann. while we are always very glad to have yes and no answers it doesn't seem this question admits that type of response. Perhaps you might amplify it a little more. It is not quite clear to the witness and it is not clear to the Tribunal either. BY DR. HOFFMANN:
QYour Honor, I asked the witness whether in Duesseldorf in the year 1944 he also risked hislife. Thereupon he said yes.
THE PRESIDENT:When you say also risked his life it suggests that he at one time did. It isn't apparent that he had from his own statement. He never saw Jews, never had contact with them, had the sweetest time imaginable and even in Russia didn't risk his life. BY DR. HOFFMANN:
QI asked Him whether he risked his life in Duesseldorf because he did not obey an order of the Higher SS and Police leader?
THE PRESIDENT:Yes you can put that question.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
QThereupon he said yes. How I ask him whether he would answer the question which you, your Honor, asked him if on the one hand there were 500 innocent people and on the other hand he has to risk his life for them, whether in view of the fact that he acted differently in Duesseldorf, he would not have to review his answer once more.
AI already said that I cannot imagine the situation in Russia, as well as I experienced it in Dusseldorf. In Dusseldorf things happened one after the other. When I was confronted with the final decision, that is when the order was once more confirmed from Berlin only then I would have been confronted with a new situation.
QWitness, did you in Dusseldorf have the chance to et away with your life?
AIn Dusseldorf I had this chance insofar as my conduct, even though the order of the Higher SS and Police Leader would have been confirmed by Berlin, I could have had the half-Jews notified by confidence men and told them to disappear.
QWitness, I don't want to know and I just want to know whether you saw a chance in Dusseldorf to escape with y ur life, yes or no?
AYes.
QBut you don't dare to say that you would have refused an order if you would have had to count on certain death; you don't think you have such a strong character, yes or no?
ANo.
DR HOFFMAN:I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QDid you actually disobey the order at Dusseldorf?
AReally I did not obey it.
QYes, and you are still alive?
ABecause the conditions.....
QYou can certainly answer that question yes or no, we hope.
AYes, but.....
QSo therefore it doesn't follow that because you disobey an order you are going to be killed right off the bat; that doesn't follow, does it, in the German Army?
AThere is a considerable difference, your Honor.
QWell, the fact remains -- Just a moment now.