had left the Ghetto, making their way out by force thus violating the instructions which had been given. tions, or not, and you told us that was the case, that you knew it was the case, why was it necessary in the case of Jews to have any kind of investigation to prove any kind of a crime, if because of the fact that he was a Jew he was to be killed anyway?
A Mr. Prosecutor, at the beginning I said that I made every attempt to evade being forced to have to carry out the Fuehrer Order, because inwardly I objected to and against this measure of killing innocent people. In this case it was not a matter of carrying out the Fuehrer's Order, but this was a violation of the regulations issued by the Security Police, and of orders by the Wehrmacht.
Q I know that witness. But we have this situation. There is an order that all Jews are to be killed, the Einsatzkommandos received the order, and carried it out. Why should Nebe, or any Einsatzcommando leader tell you to conduct an investigation as concerned Jews, and to see whether they were members of the Partisan band, or whether they had violated anything the Wehrmacht directed when they would have been killed simply on the Fuehrer Order. Why was all of that necessary. It does not make sense to me. Can you explain it?
A I can not explain it. I can merely say that I received orders from Nebe to find out what I could, and then to act rigorously, with the sharpest means in the most ruthless manner, that is what he told me.
Q Did Nebe anticipate, do you know, that you would kill all the Jews?
A I didn't get the question. whether the investigation was just a matter of form?
A No, Nebe didn't tell me I could kill all the Jews. Nebe merely said I should go there and investigate the matter, whether it was true what the Mayor had reported, and then I was to act accordingly.
that is the order he gave me.
Q Witness, isn't it true, that Nebe already carried out the Fuehrer Order in other cases? tell you to carry out the Fuehrer Order instead of going through all this useless investigation, which according to you might mean that some Jews might escape the death penalty?
A Well, I don't know why he didn't give me the order. Why he didn't tell me to carry out the Fuehrer Order. He just didn't tell me to do it.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, will you please clear up in his affidavit a matter, because you are right on the very subject, and I don't know whether you now are coming to it, or not, or intend to come to it, of Nebe giving an order to establish an example, as he just said now that Nebe told him to conduct investigations. That is paragraph 4 of the affidavit.
MR. FERENCZ: Will you please explain that, witness?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, that is the affidavit of 2 July, In this affidavit I formulated it in that manner but it is not complete, and, at the time I gave my testimony under psychological pressure, and I was nervous, and, therefore, my testimony was not as complete as when I completed it afterwards.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, proceed, Mr. Ferencz. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q To come back to this situation. Nebe received the Fuehrer Order, and Nebe carried out the Fuehrer Order. That has been established here by several witnesses, and by the documents. Now, we have a situation in Tatarsk where there was a group of Jews, and in accordance with the Fuehrer Order they should all be killed. You told us that they were all killed, whether they were in the Ghetto, or out of the Ghetto, that all Jews were to be killed.
It does not make sense to me that he would then say, go out and make a big investigation; see if you can find out whether they had intimidated the Mayor; find out if they had violated the Wehrmacht regulations; find out if they had contact with Partisans. And on the basis of your findings take such ruthless action that is necessary; why was that all necessary, why did not he just tell you to go and kill all Jews in accordance with the Fuehrer Order, in accordance with everything we have been doing up to now. Can you explain that, please? this limitation really existed, and that, therefore, he didn't give the order to shoot all Jews as mentioned in the Fuehrer Order, buy only those who had not been shot because being fit to work, but now, if they violated regulations, were to be executed just because they had violated the regulations issued by the Security Police and the Wehrmacht.
A That is the only explanation I can give. I don't know why Nebe didn't give me the order to shoot all Jews rigorously, because in that case he would have given me the order to shoot women and children because they were included, buy I didn't do that because I could very well see that this was not necessary; that the mission was not such that I had to carry out the Fuehrer Order, but said, that those persons who had left the Ghetto and those persons who had threatened the Mayor were to be punished, that I had to investigate this matter and to proceed accordingly. Ghetto, whether they had left the Ghetto or whether they didn't leave the Ghetto, were to be killed, and that this was the fact, generally?
A No, I didn't say that of all those who were in the Ghetto. This was not possible, because the Jews were not in the Ghetto any more, not there in the Ghetto in Tatarsk.
Q Were not all Jews to be killed?
A I beg your pardon?
Jews were to be killed? Order was not decisive. didn't make any difference as concerned Jews. The mere fact that they were Jews was sufficient. Isn't that correct? for the purpose of being shot?
AAt the time, Mr. Prosecutor, I certainly didn't think this, or know it.
Q You heard about the Fuehrer Order, had you not?
Q Why do you think they were collecting these Jews. You had an order that all Jews were to be killed, and you put Jews into the Ghetto. Why did you think they were there? then they partly were not killed, they were used for work, every kind of work. the women and children, the old persons and the sick persons?
Q Let's limit our discussion to those under the Fuehrer Order, either in its full context, or as modified, these people were to be killed, is that correct? that correct?
Q Then why did they put the Jews into the Ghettos?
work. into the Ghetto?
A Well, I don't know that. were supposed to be killed by the Einsatzcommandos. Now I ask you, why did they put them into the Ghetto, and you can not figure out the particular answer?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I never had anything to do with this Jewish affair. I never arranged the Ghetto, or set it up. I am not very familiar with this matter; that is why my testimony might have contained contradictions. I don't know exactly which Jews were brought into the Ghetto, and which were not brought into the Ghetto; whether sick people and old people were kept in the Ghetto; or whether they were shot, in whatever manner the policy varried greatly in this matter. I say I don't know. Really, I don't know how this was done. I never had anything to do with bringing Jews into the Ghetto, and shooting of Jews, because of the Fuehrer.
Q How long were you a SS-major on the Eastern front? December 1943, that is two and one-half years. or to hear or learn that Jews were collected in the Ghetto for the purposes of being killed? Jews were in the Ghetto to be assigned for work. unable to find out in all this time that you were a high ranking SS officer, when millions of people were killed by the Einsatzcommandos; you were unable to find out what was happening to these people? Do you expect us to believe that thing, Klingelhoefer?
A Well, I knew that Jews were being shot of course. Of course, I knew that from the Fuehrer Order, and also that some of the Jews were being saved in order to do the work. for the purpose of being killed in accordance with the Fuehrer Order, isn't that a fact?
Q Now, I am asking you, isn't it a fact? Why do you say "probably?" You were there for two and one-half years as a high ranking SS-officer?
Q Didn't you know as a fact that Jews were collected in the Ghettos and killed if they were unable to work? them to work.
Q How about the children?
Q They were put to work, too? were killed? Jewish people fit for work were killed.
Q And that it was what happened generally. Those were the orders, and that is the reason they were brought together, so it would be easier for the Einsatzcommandos to kill them, that is correct, isn't it?
A Well, that can be supposed. I don't know whether it was like that.
Q How was it then? brought Jews back into the Ghetto in order to utilize them for work, and, that later on at the end the Fuehrer Order was and had to be carried out, that is quite possible, and I said I personally had nothing to do with this matter, and didn't know anything about these things which happened.
I didn't bother about it. Purposely, I didn't take any interest in these cases because I felt uncomfortable to talk about that problem.
Q But you do admit that you knew?
A Please? and in the Ghetto were killed in accordance with the Fuehrer Order, not by you, but by others? ren and put them into the Ghetto? them back to the Ghetto, yes. into the Ghetto were going to be killed by some one else, and you took care of the men yourself, that is true, isn't it?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, at the time when I carried out the action, and I brought the women and children back to the Ghetto, I didn't do that with the idea and awareness that these Jews, these women and children were to be shot. That never occurred to me. in the Ghetto, and who were unable to work, were killed in accordance with the Fuehrer Order? inwardly didn't think of it, and didn't expect it, that I brought these women and children into the Ghetto, especially so they could be shot later on. I didn't think of that.
Q You didn't think if for the purpose of having them killed, but you know at the time you shot the male Jews in Tatarsk that you put the children and females into the Ghetto, that they would be killed, or some, and that all of those were killed in the Ghetto who were unable to work, that is correct, isn't it?
Q Is that correct, or is it not correct?
AAs I already said at the time I didn't think of that, Mr. Prosecutor. I can not say anything else.
Q You didn't give it any thought? knew that a modification existed, not to shoot people, because during the action at the time which I knew was carried out based on the Fuehrer Order, the women and children were not shot. I assumed that at the time these Jews were not to be shot, but that perhaps they were going to be subjected to a resettlement at a later time. I believe that was my idea. I never thought that the Fuehrer Order and this final solution should be carried out in such a radical manner. I only learned about it much later.
AAt the moment when I carried out the action in Tatarsk, I didn't have that idea.
Q You told us you knew that all Jews were to be killed? You knew there was a modification later on, that those Jews who were able to work didn't have to be killed. You told us that you knew that all Jews in the Ghettos who were unable to work were killed, and you told us that you took a group of Jewish women and children into a Ghetto. Now are you saying that you did it without giving it any thought; you just put them in there to save them? Ghetto according to general instructions. That was all.
Q Do you know what happened to those women and children?
A Pardom me?
Q Do you know what happened to those women and children?
A When they had been brought back into the Ghetto? I don't know, no.
never heard about them again? of the German, I have this description: "The action in Tatarsk" and it says that the village was combed very systematically, and the Jews were herded together in the market square. Some of them had fled and had to be driven out of the nearby woods."
Q Who carried out that action?
A Pardon me? that the Jews had left the Ghetto, and I had to come out the woods. were beaten when they were herded back to the Ghetto?
A No, Not so far as I know, I didn't see any Jews being beaten. years as a SS-major in the Einsatzgruppe? beaten, certainly not.
Q What happened to the Jews that resisted arrest?
A I beg your pardon?
Q What happened to the Jews tried to resist arrest?
A Well, I don't know. they marched nicely down to the Ghetto. Never resisted, there was not beating, it was all a very nice affair. Is that what you are trying to say? course.
Q Give us some particular cases?
A I can not generalize here. It can, of course, happen, that someone does resist arrest.
Q You ever knew of any case, and you don't know of any case in which the Jews were beaten, generally. Why were they brought together. What was it, that they were herded together in the Market square and driven out of the woods. What does that mean? Nebe and treated in the manner indicated there, just as it is usual during raids, when people are taken out of the forests and houses and the guard make them walk in front of them. I can not explain it in a different manner.
Q Were any of them shot on the way?
A On the way? the market square?
A No. I don't know. Certainly not in Tatarsk. who were able to work were not shot?
A That wasn't my order to look after that - not to shoot those fit for work. My order was that I had to carry out the investigations and put those in the ghetto and not to select people.
Q Didn't you ever tell Noack that he shouldn't shoot those who were able to work? carried out.
A Noack did not have to say anything here. He merely received the order for his action from Nebe. I could not interfere. This was an order by the Fuehrer which had been passed on to him by Nebe. I had no influence whatever on this matter. that only those -- or to save those who were able to work? acted according to the order by the Fuehrer. And he actually did not shoot those suitable for work, according to what he told me. He told me that, at Tatarsk, he once shot twenty Jews unfit for work because at the time this modified order existed.
Q Did you ever discuss this question with Mr. Wartenberg.
A Which question?
who were able to work?
A I did not tell Noack anything to this effect. Noack knew this himself because he was an expert of Jewish affairs. I myself did not know about it. It was Noack who told me about the fact that only Jews unfit for work were to be shot after he had carried out this action in Tatarsk. matter with Mr. Wartenberg during your interrogation?
A Which question? everybody or only kill those who were unable to work? with him. I believe I only made general statements about the anti-Jewish action, I do not remember having gone into details. your recollection. I will read it through in German. Q. "How many men approximately were brought together? A. In Tatarsk all Jews were brought together. However, I insisted on it that if he wanted to shoot these people and had to do it the old people and the sick people were to be shot and the others were not to be shot." Do you remember that now?
A No, I did not say that. I don't know that. statement to the interrogator Wartenberg? because I had no influence on these matters. I had explained to Mr. Wartenberg that I was neither in charge of or had supervision over Noack nor could I give him any instructions.
execution which you had ordered when suddenly you were called away because there were some Jewish women having some dispute with some Russian women, is that correct?
Q What did you do to those Jewish women?
A I did not do anything with these Jewesses. It was like this. The Jewesses wanted to bring back their property into the Ghetto which they had brought out the previous day and the Russian quarreled about their property claiming it was theirs, and I saw to it that the Jewesses got their property back and could take it back into the Ghetto. women to see that the Jewish women got their property back and it was safely taken back into the Ghetto?
A Yes, that's what I said. had ordered all Jews to be killed? this action in the Tatarsk occurred it never occurred to me that these Jewesses were to be shot later on. I did not think of that. I said so before. and you took them back into the Ghetto and you knew there was a general order to kill all Jews and you had been a Kommando leader in an Einsatzgruppe but it never occurred to you that these women might all be shot; is that what you say? objected to all this. I cannot express it differently. It repulsed me. It never occurred to me.
occurred to you that somebody might be killing the Jews, is that what you are trying to tell us, Herr Klingelhoefer?
A I don't get the question. want to kill these Jewish women. If you didn't know it then, you see now in the reports that millions of Jews were killed. You were a commando leader in an Einsatz you were an SS-major, you had heard about the Fuehrer order, and now you say it never occurred to you that these women might be killed. not occur to me, Mr. Prosecutor. Later on, of course , I knew that women and children and all Jews were to be killed, but at that time when I sis this - what should I say - from a humans impulse I acted in that manner and protected the property of the Jews. This was purely a humans idea without thinking about it until later on.
Q You say at that time you didn't know these women were to be killed? When did you first learn of the Fuehrer order? Give us the date as boat you can remember. Dueben during the roll call which Sturmbannfuehrer Rausch carried out and conducted. This roll call took place shortly before we left for the Russian border.
Q That was on what date approximately?
Q 1941? take place? end of September or the beginning of October 1941.
this execution of the Jews and in June you had the order to kill all Jews. What do you mean when you say that you never heard about it, that up until the time of the Tatarsk action you didn't know that all Jews were to be killed? Did you forget it from the time you heard it in June and the time you had to marry it out in September? Nebe in Tatarsk to stop munity and to act severely and to investigate the cases of disobedience and I did not get the order to carry out anti-Jewish action according to the Fuehrer Order. and to act severely. As were discussing this secret of the return of the Jewish property to the jewish women and your taking them back into the Ghetto. I am trying to understand how it is possible for a Kommando leader to prior, to return Jews, goes out of his many to return property to them and to escort them back into the Ghetto where they would later be killed.
A Mr. Prosecutor, first of all I wasn't in charge of a Kommando. I was merely assigned by the Einsatz Group chief and the Einsatz chief did not give me the order to carry out anti-Jewish actions. Ghetto where they had left unlawfully and so I did according to orders. confused and I would like to give you the opportunity to clarify them. You say that you took the property away from the Russians and that you gave it back to these Jewish women in view of the fact that you know that there were orders to execute all the Jews.
Why sis you go to the trouble of giving them back the property? that was the only reason I did this. I did not have any other thoughts. killed, why did you go to the trouble of having investigations to determine whether they were Partisans or had violated Wehrmacht orders?
Q Do you find any sense in such an order. Can you find any justification in giving an order and wasting a lot of time when Jews were going to be shot anyway?
You said all male Jews were found guilty. It might have been a fortunate coincidence. It might have been unfortunate. But you say on investigation all were found guilty. I don't understand why if all Jews were to be killed why anybody should bother with investigations to determine any facts. Can you explain that? of regulations and I said that especially I personally evaded or tried to evade the execution of the Fuehrer order. order. Perhaps there is something in particular that hasn't been brought out but we have - -
THE PRESIDENT: I think you have exhausted this episode pretty thoroughly. Now he has given his explanation whether you accept it or not is up to you. But he said he got these orders, he want there, he investigated them, He knew of the Fuehrer order and does not know why he took the women back when he knew they were going to be killed.
He said all that and I don't think there is any use going over it again.
MR. FARENCZ: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. FARENCZ: make false reports showing the killing of Jews without any indication of investigation?
A It says here because they disobeyed orders. Why other explanations are not mentioned I already explained to the President yesterday - that this is a report based on a verbal report which I made personally to Nebe. He didn't know hoe he formulated this report. Why he wrote it this way I don't know. I did not write the report in that manner. It does not originate from me.
Q How long were you on the Staff of Einsatzgruppe B? middle of September 1941 until the end of October 1941. Then I was in charge of Advanced Kommando Group Staff until 2 December and then finally 25 December 1941 I returned to the Group staff and ever since I have constantly been in the Group Staff.
Q Until when?
Q Therefore we have this as dates: you were a member of Einsatzgruppe B. From the middle of September to the end of October 1941 and from 25 December 1941 until December 1943 - is that correct? two years. of Einsatzgruppe B staff how many executions took place? Approximately?
A I cannot say that. I don't think that executions occurred, in any case I did not hear of any in the staff.
Q During these two years? gruppe B?
A In Einsatzgruppen B in general, yes. Of course. But in the staff itself I did not hear anything of executions. that was not the job of the staff to carry out executions. by the units under the command of Einsatzgruppen B?
A I don't understand that. Units under the command of the staff. What units are you referring to?
A I don't know that. I never had anything to do with that. doing?
A No, I did not hear that. They did their own duty as SS Police. I had to deal with a very special work. I worked quite independently and had no connection at all with the other work of the Einsatzgruppen. staff, who had higher rank than you did?
A That varied very much because people changed. In general, in the staff, apart from the chief himself there was his deputy. That was Obersturmbannfuehrer, Senior Government Councillor. Then there were various departments, this is department chief for personnel matters -
Q What were their ranks?
those two years had a rank higher than your rank in Staff Einsatzgruppen B?
A I can tell you that. In the staff there were mostly the chief, his deputy and the department chiefs. Those were the people who if they had the rank of Sturmbannfuehrer, or major, that was my rank, they had higher ranks because they were department chiefs in the Einsatzgruppen B. Just like the Kommander of the Einsatzgruppen they were all required to have been in charge of an office in the Reich. gruppe B?
Q Think about it. Approximately. It doesn't have to be very exact. 20. Something like that.
Q Naumann commanded all of these officers? various departments, in administration there was an administrative chief. power to order the activities of all the Sonderkommandos as shown on that chart?
A The staff did not have to give any orders. Instructions were given by the chief. responsible for all of the Sonderkommandos and Einsatzkommandos which comprised the Einsatzgruppe B? responsible for his own work and the chief of the Einsatz gruppen Naumann was in charge, to whom all the Kommando leaders were responsible.