was in charge of all Einsatzkommando chiefs but the rest of the staff, namely you, had no responsibility?
A No. The command channels went directly from the Kommando leader to the group leader, who gave his instructions to the Kommando chief. All other - -
Q Didn't the staff in Einsatzgruppe B Headquarters assist him in carrying out his duties or were they just remaining there independantly? military channels of command. The department leaders were subordinate to the chief of the Einsatzgruppen and the members of the staff were experts within that staff who worked on material coming from the Kommando but according to orders of the Einsatzgruppen chief. That is an organization for military and administration purposes. headquarters with Einsatzgruppe B did you ever hear about executions being carried out by units of Einsatzgruppen B. Einsatzkommando carried out these executive tasks, that is, security police tasks were carried out in the course of which executions took place. Of course, I knew that. It was our assignment to guard the security of the territories. communists just because they were Jews, gypsies or Communists? that is what you are referring to, was being carried out by the kommandos.
get out of Einsatzgruppen B during those two years?
A Yes, I tried once. But Naumann would not let me go.
Q Why did you try?
A I did not immediately go to Naumann because I didn't feel comfortable, because I did not like the whole job of Einsatz, that is why I tried but did no succeed. tried to get out of your assignment?
A I did not go directly to Naumann. I was in Berlin and in Berlin talked to a leader of Office VI of the Operations "Zeppelin" and he told me he would try to get me free for Office VI and then he sent a teletype to Naumann which Naumann showed me, and said: "Obersturmbannfuehrer Grefe at the time asked for you but I can't release you. You have to deal with these tasks - I can't do without you." That is what Naumann told me. out of Einsatz Headquarters, did you? it. He would not have released me.
Q How do you know he would not have released you?
A I knew that he would not release me. I knew that quite well because I was a special expert speaking Russian perfectly and knowing the conditions. Therefore he could not do without me. Naumann regarded you as indispensable and didn't want to release you, is that correct, particular task and considered me indispensable.
Q Therefore, you would say, wouldn't you, that Naumann regarded you as indispensable to the successful functioning of Einsatzgruppe B?
A What? functioning of Einsatzgruppe B?
A I don't get the question. interpretor and because I knew Russian conditions. That is why he needed me. operate successfully without you? Is that correct? on me but the department I worked in considered me indispensable but this was not connected with the entire Einsatzgruppen. reports and had nothing to do with killings in any way?
A What?
A No, I was alone in the department. I had no assistance. I was sitting on my own and I evaluated documents and printed material, I interrogated people and talked to them when I wanted to hear something for my extensive reports.
Q. Why did you feel uneasy in that job? It sounds pretty good to me.
A. It was the general impression I had of the entire assignment that depressed me so much.
Q. Were you depressed when you thought about the activities of Einsatzkommandos and Einsatzgruppes when you sitting here in the jail in Nurnberg?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You say you were depressed about all this activity of the Einsatzgruppe. I am asking you, were you depressed when you were here in Nurnberg in the jail and you had plenty of time to think about it?
A. I was depressed, of course, but not only about my work in the East, and about the whole atmosphere there, but in general I was depressed about the collapse of the German Reich and about the things that I heard later on which I did not know anything about before. Those were the things that depressed me particularly.
Q. Did you attempt to commit suicide while you were down here in the jail?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. That was as a result of sending the letter to Mr. Wartenberg. I had such an inward conflict that I no longer realized whether I had acted in the right manner. On the one hand, I was trying to say the truth as far as possible, knowing the catastrophe which had happened and my responsibility for the development of things; on the other hand, I felt that I had to give away here a comrade, a former superior, In this state of excitement and in this conflict I found no way out, and my nerves were in such a bad state that I tried to commit suicide. I thought I could not live honestly this way. That was the reason I tried to commit suicide.
Q. You say, knowing your responsibility for the development of things you tried to commit suicide, is that correct?
A. No, I tried to commit suicide because I had such conflicts that, on the one hand, I surrendered this smuggled note, because I did not want to give somebody else away, but, on the other hand, I felt that I gave a comrade away, and my honor was lost, and the thing upset me so I didn't know what to do.
Q. You did not think you lost your honor when you shot Jews, did you?
A. I shot Jews, Mr. Prosecutor, because during the war
Q. We have gone through all that already. Tell me, did you feel that you lose your honor when you took these Jews out and shot them in the back?
A. No, in that case I acted according to orders to look after the security of the rear Army territory of the German Wehrmacht.
Q. You told us this morning or yesterday that you gave this note which Naumann had slipped to you, you gave it up without reading it because you didn't want to be coerced into telling an untruth, that you were afraid that Naumann was trying to coerce you to say something that wasn't true, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Why should Naumann try to conceal the truth?
A. I thought so, I assumed so at the moment. When I got this note I assumed that Naumann would try to persuade me to camouflage something. That was my immediate reaction to his giving me this secret note in prison.
Q. But why, The question is, do you know of any facts that would lead you to believe that Naumann would attempt to conceal the truth, and for you to be so much convinced of that, that without even reading the note you betrayed your comrade, as you put it? What facts do you know about Naumann which leads you to believe that he is attempting to conceal the truth?
A. I did not quite get the question.
THE PRESIDENT: You did have quite a number of questions thrown in there, Mr. Ferencz.
I think the last one would probably sum up everything.
Q. (By Mr. Ferencz) What facts do you know about Naumann which convinced you that he was attempting to conceal the truth?
A. I do not know any fact from Naumann. This was merely my instinctive reaction because a note was being handed to me. I would not only have treated it in that manner because it came from Naumann, but if it had come from anyone else. I consider a clandestine note which is granted to me in prison, an attempt to persuade me to do something which is not correct.
Q. Naumann testified that he just did that from a comradely attitude.
A. Well, that is true. I can't quite explain it perhaps. That was the one reason why I reacted in that manner and therefore tried to commit suicide, that he perhaps did not want to make me say a lie, but merely wanted to help me. That was the idea why my conscience was so troubled, but instinctively, in the state of excitement, I had acted in that way, and later on when I thought about it, I realized that thus I had perhaps betrayed a comrade and had lost my honor.
Q. You started to tell us this morning what you had written to Mr. Wartenberg, and you told us part of it.
A. Yes.
Q. I am now going to give you the note that you wrote to Mr. Wartenberg, and I am going to ask you to read it out loud to the Tribunal.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a photostatic copy of the note which you sent to Mr. Wartenberg upon receiving the message from Naumann?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Would you please read it slowly and carefully?
A. Yes. "Nurnberg, 4 July, 1947." Addressed to the interrogator, Mr. Wartenberg.
"I am handing over the enclosed note which was given to me secretly by Erich Naumann on Thursday, the 3rd of July, 1947, in the evening hours after the walk. I have not opened it and have no knowledge about the contents. I refuse to have anything to do with things of this sort. Already in peacetime and even more in the course of the war, when observing the measures and their results, I have had doubts about their moral and ethical advocability, doubts which estranged me with ever growing intensity from the atmosphere in which I lived and worked in good trust and in a discipline born of long training. Too late, unfortunately, after the collapse I gained complete insight into the full extent of the horrible blasphemy which was carried out here. Nevertheless, I ask that this stop of mine not be interpreted as an attempt to excuse myself in any way or to ask for good weather. I am fully conscious of the fact that I must bear the consequences completely for my personal attitude and my acts. But, I will not burden my conscience with acts which are in complete contradition to the attitude I have now again achieved. Waldemar Klingelhoefer," signed.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I would now like to offer this statement by the defendant as Prosecutions Exhibit -- I believe the number in 190. I will distribute it at this time to the Tribunal and to the defense council.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be accepted.
MR. FERENCZ: Klingelhoefer, I am going to ask you some questions about this statement and about your attitude concerning the activities which took place in the East. I want you to think about it and read your statement over again during the recess. recess, in order to give the defendant the opportunity to consider his questions carefully.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1515 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDENT: Proceed, Mr. Ferencz.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. Herr Klingelhoefer, in this statement you gave Mr. Wartenberg before attempting suicide, you spoke about the horrible blasphemy which had been carried out; you said there was no attempt being made to excuse yourself, and that you didn't want to burden you conscience with acts which were in complete opposition to the attitude you had again achieved. Do you still have the same attitude you had achieved when you wrote this message?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Do you have any feeling of regret or remorse about what happened under your command in the East?
A. I actually never led the commando in the East, Mr. Prosecutor; I never led a commando. The only commando which I led was the small Advance Commando Group Staff, and whatever was done by it does not cause me to have any remorse. That was just destined for the assignment in Moscow. Everything else I did on order, which I have described and mentioned. And as far as I know, that whatever I did, I did it in a manner that I could not consider as a burdening of my conscience.
Q. Do you have the feeling that you did anything wrong while you were with the Einsatz in the East?
A. No.
Q. And do you still contend that everything you have told us in this courtroom has been ture?
A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge.
MR. FERENCZ: We have no further questions, Your Honor. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. One point I want to clear up. I understood you to say that you knew of 50 who had been executed. Does that constitute the maximum number of d oaths of which you were personally aware--deaths by execution?
A. That is the figure of the executions which I personally knew about. Outside of these 30 Jews and the 3 Jewesses whom I had executed, that is the figure which I personally got to knew about.
Q. Then, in all, you know about 83?
A. Yes.
Q. I wanted to clear that. This affidavit of yours was signed on July 2, 1947?
A. Yes.
Q. Then on August 27, 1947, you made a supplement to the affidavit, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. When you made this supplement which consisted of a correction in the date of the period that you were in charge of a certain commando, why did you not make the other correction of which you now complain?
A. Your honor,it was just on this day when I was called upon to make those corrections by Mr. Wartenberg when I explained to him that after I had now had the time to think matters over,and also pointed out that those various corrections existed that I would like to make those corrections and Mr. Wartenberg told me it would be the best thing if in the case of extensive corrections we would make a new affidavit, and thereupon he explained to me that I should prepare the new affidavit and the facts for it,and he would call me at a later date and then he would accept from me the new and corrected affidavit. That is what he told me. Of course, I visited him with my attorney who heard and listened to all these negotiations. Then Mr. Wartenberg called me on the 17th of September and I gave him the second affidavit.
Q. This affidavit of November 27, was it written up on your own initiative?
A. This second affidavit was made out by me on the basic of the first affidavit, together with the corresponding corrections and additions. Yes, I did that myself. Mr. Wartenberg then read through it and accepted it.
Q. Did you write it out in your own hand?
A. No. I did not write this in my own hand. First, I wrote it down by hand and then my attorney typed it.
Q. This is the one of August 27 -- the one of August 27?
A. Not the corrections. I did not write the corrections. Mr. Wartenberg prepared the corrections and he then filled them in. I was called to see him. you mean the correction of the date, is that what you mean, Your Honor.
A. Yes. The one, it was made up on August 27, was this made on your own initiative?
A. No. I was asked to go to see Mr. Wartenberg because Mr. Wartenberg had determined the mistakes of the first affidavit which I had overlooked.
Q. And that is when you called his attention to these other mistakes, is that what I understand you to say?
A. At this occasion I immediately told Mr. Wartenberg that I was referring to the conversation I had with him about the first affidavit. While pointing out that many developments and conditions as they were described there were not quite according to the truth, and that I new had had the time to think about all these matters thoroughly and that I recalled many things again, and now I would like to make these corrections and additions.
Q. When you signed the affidavit on July 2, 1947, did you at that time believe that the facts which you expressed in that affidavit were correct?
A. I didn't quite understand.
Q. Just a minute. You have explained to me that on August 27, 1947, when you spoke to Mr. Wartenberg you said to him that now that you had had an opportunity to reflect on what you had stated in your affidavit of July 2, things were clearer to you and, therefore, you wished to make some corrections.
Now, am I correct in that, or am I not?
A. Yes.
Q. So when you signed the affidavit on July 2, 1947, you believed that the facts written up in that affidavit were correct?
A. When I signed it, I thought that that was true, but at the same time, as I have said repeatedly, Your Honor, I made the reservation which Mr. Wartenberg gave me, namely, he told me that I could make the corrections at a later date, as far as the formulation is concerned and with this reservation given to me orally, by him, I signed the affidavit.
Q. Did you, or did you not believe the facts stated in the affidavit of July 2 to be true when you signed the affidavit?
A. Not quite, Your Honor, because I made this reservation and I signed it with this reservation.
Q. You permitted yourself to sign a paper in which you went into the description of executions with reservations that you anted to make some corrections, is that what we are to understand?
A. Pardon me, Your Honor, as far as the facts given by me in this affidavit are concerned, I did not want to deny these or correct them, I merely wanted to correct the fact about my position and clarify it. I never wanted to deny the incidents and events as such.
Q. Well, then, the facts contained in this affidavit of July 2nd are correct?
A. The facts are correct, that as far as the two actions are concerned, I undertook the Tatarsk action independently and I attended also the other action, Matislawl and that I was a witness to this action, of course; these are the two actions which I experienced, and which I listed in the first affidavit and which I confirmed in the second affidavit and completed them there.
Q. And do you confirm this statement, "The executions proper were carried out by Noack under my supervision"?
A. No. I do not confirm that.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Wartenberg this?
A. I spoke about it, of course.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Wartenberg that the executions were carried out by Noack under your supervision?
A. I told Mr. Wartenberg that I did not have the order to carry out the supervision thereupon Mr. Wartenberg told me that I was the senior officer at the place and automatically it was up to me to carry out the supervision, and this formulation was put into the affidavit by Mr. Wartenberg. It was not put in by me.
Q. Did you see that particular statement when you signed the affidavit?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. And you approved it?
A. Yes.
Q. You describe the execution in some detail. You explain how the executees would fall into the pit, then "in case it was noted that someone in the pit was still alive, he received a coup de grace". How did you determine whether a person was alive or dead, only by observing whether there was still movement in the body?
A. Your Honor, I personally never had anything to do with this matter. I merely gave this description on the basis of what I saw or heard at this execution of these 10 Jews by Noack. That is what I have described, that's all.
Q. This statement says "approximately 50 Jews were shot during these two executions". Then you saw two executions and observed the manner of death, is that right?
A. That is what can be gathered from the affidavit. That is how it was put in, but it doesn't refer to the 50 Jews when I saw, but as I later explained, it refers only to the 10 Jews when I saw.
Q. Well, you saw these 10 Jews shot?
A. I saw how the 10 Jews in Matislawl were shot, Yes.
or not since, they had fallen into a pit?
A No. That was not my business. I had nothing to do with that. I later explained that a medical noncom was there who had to take care of this matter. pulse of each executee?
A I do not know; I was too far away.
Q How far away were you?
Q You saw this execution? by the bullets, didn't you? in that instance?
A No. I don't know how to explain it. I was about 100 meters away, and I could, of course, see how the Jews fell in, but what the medical noncom did in the pit, I could not see.
Q You were 100 meters away when this execution occurred?
Q Did you talk to Noack?
Q What did you do, talk to him by field telephone?
A NO, NO. He came to see me when I approached it.
Q Where was he standing at the point of execution? noncom. Noack had the supervision.
Q How far was Noack away from the actual scene of execution?
supervising? he was supervising? about. scene of the execution? that what you are telling us?
Q Well, that is exactly what you said. Now, explain it. Noack is supervising the execution. Tell us how far he was away from the execution squad. moment when the shots were fired he was 100 meters away from the execution place. He was standing with me.
Q That is the way he supervised? when he was supervising the execution, he was a hundred meters away talking to you, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
Q And from a hundred meters' distance you observed what this noncommissioned medical officer did at a hundred meters' distance? from a hundred meters away before, for you can recognize him a hundred meters away, I saw that he stepped into the pit, but what he did, I could only imagine, that is he would go in there to establish whether the victims were dead.
Q And did he deliver the coup de grace to any of the victims?
Q Why did you say here, "in case it was noted that someone in the pit was still alive he received the coup de grace"? tion in order to refer to this incident, and when I was asked about this, I said it was customary that the victims would receive the coup de grace. accustomed to executions, aren't you? who weren't killed outrightly received the coup de grace? You knew that was the custom, didn't you, from experience? living gets a coup de grace. I didn't find that out from my own experience buy from the general usage. I did not mean to say that.
Q How do you understand "general usage". Not everybody knows that. I don't know; I never saw it; how does one know that in the event the victim is not killed outrightly and is still squirming and screaming on the ground that then someone comes along and shoots him down--how does one know that--how did you know it?
A I don't know what you mean by the question.
Q Well, I will tell you what I mean by the question. How many executions did you actually witness? reported.
Q And how many were killed there?
Q Did you see the 10 fall into the pit?
A Yes, I saw it. I saw it from the distance how they fell in.
Q Yes. How many were there in the execution squad?
Q And how many shots were fired?
A Every man shot. I just could see the shots. I couldn't see from the badk. I merely saw that the order was given by the noncom and that they fired.
Q Were the victims blindfolded or not?
A No. They were standing there with their back towards it.
Q Were they standing or kneeling--you say they were standing?
Q Were they facing the grave?
Q Did they have their outer clothing off?
A No. They were dressed, as far as I saw, they were all dressed. that right?
Q Then the NCO leaped into the pit, is that right?
Q How deep was the pit?
A I do not know, Your Honor, I wasn't at the pit. the NCO's head?
A No, I could not because the men were surrounding him. I could not see the sergeant himself. I just saw when he jumped in and when the other men surrounded him.
Q How did you know he was a sergeant?
A Because I knew him personally. He was the medical noncom of the group staff. the sergeant at a hundred meters?
people there.
Q You could recognize this man at a hundred meters?
Q And were there any shots fired when he was in the pit?
A No, I didn't hear any.
Q Well, then no one received the coup de grace? noted that someone in the pit was still alive, he received the coup de grace? was customary. I did not mean to refer to this special case, but I said that as a general statement. I didn't think of any special case.
Q Because in other executions you had seen that done?
Q That is the only execution you saw in three years in Russia? weren't ordering it? long, and I wanted to see what had happened because I heard that Mstislawl had been disturbed by partisans, and I thought that Noack had trouble with partisans. That is why I drove out there, in order to help him. About how many partisans were in that area? Mstislawl. The mayor told me about it.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Q. You told us that the place was infested with partisans generally. About how many did you assume were in that area?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Well, do you assume that there might be hundreds?
A. It might be 50; it could be 100; it could be 200. No figures were kept.
Q. All right. 50 from 200. How many men did you have?
A. Under my command there were six men whom I had with me and Noack had about 30 men.
Q. You started out to relieve Noack with a column of six men when there might be 50 to 200 men to oppose, is that right?
A. Yes, of course, Your Honor, because at that moment I didn't think of that, whether these were five or six men, so I feared that a comrade of mine had got into trouble with his men and then I must assume that even with my six men I could help him. These were my thoughts.
Q. Were you trained as a soldier?
A. I was a soldier in the first World War, yes.
Q. Is that the reason you were taken into the Einsatzkommando because of your military training?
A. No, I was sent to the Einsatzkommando because of my linguistic knowledge. My military training was not so thorough that it would warrant this.
Q. When Nebe sent you to Tatarsk to execute Jews, to conduct an operation which in your affidavit you say was to establish an example and you knew that it would result in a killing of people, if you were so conscientiously opposed to killing, why didn't you say to Nebe, "I was brought in as a translator, not as an executioner."?
A. Your Honor, in this case I was the only officer in the Group Staff who knew the conditions and the roads in Tatarsk, because I had been there once before.
Nebe told me this expressly. This was a territory which was evidently in danger of partisays and at the same time my Russian linguistic knowledge was always important, but at this moment it was only important that the only leader who was in a position to do anything was Noack and he was already in Berlin. That was the reason why Nebe gave me this special mission.
Q. Did he order you to establish an example?
A. He didn't say this. He didn't express himself in that manner. He merely said that in all severity and ruthlessness I should act, after it had been determined that the message of the mayor corresponds to the truth.
Q. Why did you sign the affidavit with this phraseology after you knew what Nebe told you; your affidavit says, "Nebe ordered me to establish an examply." Did you tell that to Wartenberg?
A. These were my words. That is what I said at the time. Yes, of course.
Q. Oh, you did say that? Very well.
A. Yes, one moment. I said that. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. All right, now, one thing I didn't quite get clear. Mr. Ferencz asked you if you had discussed with the Defendant Naumann the answers which you read here in court, whether you discussed with him those answers before you actually delivered the answers in court. It didn't become clear to me whether you answered that in the affirmative or not. You did answer it in the affirmative and then your attorney made an objection and it was left not too clear. Did you discuss your testimony with Naumann before you delivered it here from the witness stand?
A. Naumann just gave me the questions, Your Honor, and thereupon I formulated my answers, of course.
Q. Naumann gave you the questions? The Defendant Naumann?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, you collaborated with your co-defendant before you came in to testify?
A. Well, I didn't collaborate. I got the questions from him and to the best of my knowledge I answered them without collaborating.
DR. MAYER (Attorney for the Defendant Klingelhoefer): Your Honor, there is another misunderstanding here. The witness is mixing up the questions asked of him by the defense counsel for Naumann and the questions put to him by me.
Q. (By the President) You are not referring then to the testimony which was elicited by your own attorney, Dr. Mayer?
A. No, no. I refer to the questions which I was asked by Naumann, or by the defense counsel of Naumann.
Q. And you received these questions from Naumann and then you formulated your answers?
A. I received those questions from Naumann and I formulated the answers to the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q. Did he suggest the answers to you?
A. No, I made them up myself.
Q. Did you talk with him at any time about the answers you were going to make?
A. Yes, I told them to him, yes.
Q. Why is it that on this occasion you were on the most cordial terms with Naumann, received his questions, formulated the answers, talked with him about what you were going to say, where several months before you were so disturbed over a note that he sent you that you wanted to commit suicide? Why was there this vast change in attitude?
A. There is nothing different in the attitude, Your Honor. I said I had tried to commit suicide because I had respect for Naumann as a comrade and that was the conflict which I developed, that on the one hand I had to do my duty and on the other hand I had respect for Naumann as a comrade whom I had to bestray in this manner.