Only then after the indictment had been served when Mr. Ohlendorf indicated it and testified to that effect in the witness stand here in court I finally became certain that such an order did in fact exist and what the contents of this order were.
Q.During this time in the East and afterwards when you were in Department 6 of the RSHA you never heard, neither officially nor privately about the Fuehrer Order, is that correct?
A.Yes,
Q.You heard about an order which was given to you in Lemberg, if I understood your testimony correctly, by Hermann, who told all the officers in the Sonderkommando?
A.Yes, he did not hand it on, he announced it, if I may say so.
Q.He informed you about it?
A.Yes, he informed us about it
Q.He did not tell you at that time that there was an order by the highest commander who fixed the tasks of the Einsatzgruppen as to the executions of Jews and Gypsies, and A-socials. He did not tell you that?
A.No, not in that form, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.What exactly did Hermann tell you during this meeting about the execution of Jews?
A.He said that as part of carrying out the general security tasks, of which the commandos in the East were in charge the severest measured would have to be applied against the bearers of the Soviet System. Here in particular I would like to say in the civilian sphere concerning the Einsatzkommandoes, the Bolshevist functionaries and the Jews were considered the most important bearers of Bolshevism.
Q.That was all he said?
A.In this connection he also explained several Wehrmacht regulations and that martial law would not be applied any more. I beg your pardon, there is something important I left out here, he said that mass executions would have to be carried out if necessary but in Sonderkommando 4B he would make all the decisions.
Q. What did you understand when you heard what would happen then to the Jews and the Communists on the basis of this order. Did you understand on the basis of this order that the Jews and Communists were to be killed?
A. I understand it to mean that they could be killed if the situation required it. In this case the situation meant the security. It was never intended nor did I understand it to mean that everyone of them was going to be killed, without examining individual cases.
Q. What did you understand, that the great part, or the greater Part of the Jewish Population was to be killed on the basis of this order?
A. No, I don't understand it to mean that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. What did you understand then by the word "necessity" which you used just now in your explanation. You must have had some idea what would make it necessary to kill these people, under which circumstances it would be necessary to kill these people?
A. At the time I didn't have a general conception of this fact. I thought that according to the circumstances, according to the local situation which the Sonderkommando found, orders which the commandoleader might receive from other agencies, would then have to be decided upon by him, and he would decide which of these persons would have to be killed. Q. I understand that. What I want to learn form you is whether you ever did entertain any idea under which circumstances the circumstances would and could make it necessary according to this order to kill the people. Did you ever have in mind if that or that would happen, it would be necessary to kill the people? Did you understand the order in that way, that they would have to have committed first a crime against the security of the German Wehrmacht before it would be permitted to kill them according to the order -the officer had to decide, that is what you said, but, I would like to know whether you had an idea under which circumstances an officer was entitled to order an execution of these people?
A.At the time I thought that a definite state of affairs would have to exist to justify the execution of the groups of persons concerned. That is what I thought.
Q.You mean by that, an investigation of a suspected person which resulted in the proof that he was guilty?
A.Yes, I had that conception.
Q.But you knew as a matter of fact that there was no trial contemplated; that on the contrary, any form of trial was excluded by this order?
A.I knew that, Mr. Prosecutor, but I may add here that there were two elements which caused strong reaction when we heard about this order. The first fact was that it would be the teak of the commando, as part of the Security Police tasks which they had to handle, to carry out the execution of persons captured who endangered the security, and the second fact was the realization that the procedure itself was considered too summary.
Q.Do I understand you correctly that you were of the opinion that there was an insufficient safeguard for the suspected person, as there was no trial, that his rights as a defendant were not sufficiently safeguarded. Is that what you want to say, that that was your opinion; was that your opinion?
A.That was my theoretical opinion, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.This order about which we spoke just now you received in Lemberg, it was at the end of June, was it not?
A.In Lemberg, yes.
Q.It was the end of June?
A.Yes, approximately.
Q.Sometime later, during the other three months you were in the East, it was the general practice of the Einsatzgruppen to kill all Jews?
AI can not say this quite like that. I would like to give an explanation about this. During the assignment I heard, it must have been about the middle of August, when the Commando-leader returned from a discussion with the Einsatzgruppe Shitomir, at the time that he was rather shocked and depressed, and said that he had been reproached because the Einsatzcommando IV-B had carried out too few executions, and he, the commando-leader, when being thus reproached, had had the feeling that they judged the efficiency of a commando according to the figures of persons executed by the commando.
QIf I understand you correctly, only a person was considered an efficient commander of Einsatzcommando, or Sondercommando, if many executions were carried out by his unit. Is that what you want to say, is it not?
AHermann received that impression during this discussion of the Einsatzgruppe.
QCan you tell the Tribunal possibly who gave this lecture to Herrmann. Was it the commander of Einsatzgruppe C?
AI am not quite sure of this. I don't know whether I just don't remember it, or whether he didn't even tell me at the time. I only know and I can only remember generally in that connection that he described the government expert Hoffmann as a savage who held such an opinion.
QCan you tell the Tribunal whether Hoffmann would have been able alone, without the support of the leader of the Einsatzgruppe - that is right - to live such information to a Sonderkommando-leader, when Hoffmann was subordinate to the leader of the Einsatzgruppe, or would he have to have had the approval and even the order of the commander of the Einsatzgruppe. Do you think that Hoffmann alone could have done such a thing?
AI can not reply to this question, because neither the Einsatzgruppe Chief, nor Hoffmann talked to me about that sufficiently on the subject.
QTo come back to this information you had received from Herrmann. Am I correct in assuming that from that time on you knew the Jews and other undesirables were indiscriminately killed by the different units of the Einsatzgruppe and Einsatzgruppe C?
ANo, I didn't know that much.
QWhat then was the impression you personally had on this information you received from Herrmann in August? What did you think he wanted to convey to you?
AHe didn't have any special intentions in this. He mereley expressed his worry.
QHow did you understand his expression? What did you understand by that when he told you that it was his impression that only such a leader was considered a good leader of a Sonderkommando who executed many people? Didn't you find out then that it was not a question whether somebody was builty or not in order to be executed. It was rather a question that somebody was for some reason undesirable, that would have been the reason for execution? Did you find it out then?
ANo. May I explain this in more detail. I said already that the procedure as such was considered rather summary insofar as for the officer who decided in special cases had only the alternative either, the man is going to be shot, or he is not going to be shot, and I said, when Herrmann informed us of the order in Lemberg, it was said very unambiguously, or at least that is how I understood it, that it would have to be decided in each individual case. It was, therefore, up to the commando leader, and such an explanation by Herrmann I could only understand to mean that this scope of decisions was being handled in too generous a manner.
QDid you learn any time between August, when Herrmann returned form Shitomir, up to the time he returned to Berlin, which was in the beginning of October 1941, did you learn, as a matter of fact, that Jews were killed deliberately, and that there was no decision in any single case; that these people were just killed for the simple reason that they were Jews and for no other reason, and that there was, of course, no decision on the part of the officer necessary in the individual cases.
Did you learn that sometime during the time that you in the East?
ANo, I'll just describe to you briefly what I heard after leaving the commando and returning to Berlin. During my trip back I stayed in Kiev for one right, and there I heard at the group - I can not say any more who told me, certainly it was not Hoffmann, that during those days in Kiev large scale executions had taken place, mostly of Jews. At the time this was based on the fact that this was a retaliation measure against the large dynamiting actions and arson which hand occurred after the Bolsievists left Kiev. Later on I heard in Lemberg where I also spent one night that a large scale shooting of Jews had taken place. At the time these shootings were also connected with another event, namely, the murders the Bolshevists had committed before leaving, about which the defendant Schulz has spoken. At the time I think there were 7,000 persons concerned who had been murdered in the prison by the Bolshevists, at the time.
QDid you hear about these killings in Lemberg when you returned from Poltawa, or when you came to Lemberg on you way to the East with the group?
AYes.
QThat must have been then one of the last days of June?
AOr one of the first days of July. The first days of July. Unfortunately I could not reconstruct this from the report of events, and I didn't have any other calendars.
QYou told the Tribunal that you only recall one instance of executions according to you memory, which was in Tarnopol, is that right?
ANo, I didn't say that, Mr. Prosecutor.
QWhat was it?
AIf I may correct that now.
QYes?
AIn view of the number of executions becoming known.
QAllright, then if I understand you that way, you know about more executions during the time that you were with Sondercommando IV-B but only in one case you knew how many people approximately were killed, is that correct?
AI remembered that, yes. I still remember the figure.
QHow you can remember that?
AYes.
QCan you tell the Tribunal how many instances of executions were carried out by Sondercommando IV-B in the time when you were with the commando, can you remember?
AMay I think about it for a moment. I have had no time to prepare myself. There must have been six or seven instances.
QSix or seven carried out by Sonderkommando IV-B during approximately the three months you were with the commando?
AYes.
QDid you learn what the reason for these executions were, or at least some of these executions?
AYes. I heard that these were saboteurs and looters. I also heard that Communist functionaries were being shot. I also heard that Jews were being shot, but I didn't hear that Jews were shot mereley because they were Jews.
QDid you learn way these Jews were shot?
ANo, not in each individual case. I assumed at the time they were shot because they had been connected in some events which endangered the security of the Army in the operational territory.
QHow many instances was it that Sonderkommando IV-B had done that?
ASeven. Seven, including the commando-leader.
QDid you have personal contact with these officers?
AWell, I don't know to what extent.
Q were you on friendly terms with them?
ANot particularly friendly. It was a correct comradely relation.
QWere you on friendly terms with Herrmann?
ANo, certainly not. If I may explain this, the commando-leader Herrmann was a very secretive person, and rather a hermit who didn't look for company in others but avoided them.
QDuring this time that you were in the East, you were nearly all the time together with the seven officers, is that correct?
AOne can not say this so briefly, Mr. Prosecutor. I travelled a great deal in order to deal with the jobs I had been given as an SD Expert. I had to contact as many persons as possible in order to receive the necessary information. It occurred that I was absent for one or two days, for example, on an occasion that I mentioned, as chief of an advanced commando; it also occurred that the others officers who were absent, because they were in charge of advanced commandos.
QBut you have told the Tribunal that in contradistinction to other commandos, that Sonderkommando IV-B kept very much together. That you were not divided up into sub-units, and part-units, and, if such a sub-unit was formed for a special task, they immediately again returned after having carried out this special task, but if I understand you correctly the quarters of the whole commando was in one place, is that right? Either in Poltawa or in another place you have mentioned here?
AYes; in general it was like that.
QSo I assume from that that you saw the seven officers quite often. Did never one ever tell you that it was the official duty of the Sonderkommando to kill Jews indiscriminately. I am not asking you now whether you got any official information about that. I ask whether you learned from one of your fellow officers, any one of them, if it was that way, was that the way?
ANo.
QNo?
ANo. No.
QThen when you got your information for your reports, for your different reports, you learned what the population was doing, didn't you?
AThat depended. I would have been satisfied if I had been able to hear everything the population thought.
QBut you know more than other people, didn't you?
AI would like to say the following here. That it was very difficult in Russia to hear anything at all. The Russians were used to keeping very quiet about certain things, even more than it was the case in Germany.
QDid you ever receive reports about the opinion the population held about the activities of the Einsatzgruppe?
A no, I can not remember. If I may explain this. It really would have needed unusual courage by the Russians to tell us, after we had been there for about eight days, that they didn't like the way we treated them.
QThat I understand, that I understand, but I am sure that you had informers form the civilian part of the population, did you not, and they certainly told you what the other civilian part, who were not the informers, said about the Germans; did they not?
AMay I say something about that, Mr. Prosecutor. In my SD work I could not use informers. An informer is a person who says something bad about another person or group. That is not what I wanted. Such a man goes to the police but does not go to a person who wants to gather information, say about economics or the administration of a city.
QBut you made also reports about the morale of the population. I do think that part of the morale of the population is, undoubtedly, this part of their opinions. You must have known how the population reacted to the killings of Jews. There were people who certainly had an impression. It was a kind of terror and we know that in the Ukraine there were many anti-Semites. They were very likely happy that Jews were killed. There are documents before the Tribunal that show that, for instance, in the Crimea. So you would have learned how the population reacted to these killings, favorably or unfavorably. You never heard anything about this?
AI did not hear of any such cases. If I may explain this further, Mr. Prosecutor, I think this is owing to the fact that our general information was too incomplete. I do not doubt that these reports would have come to my knowledge, if I had remained in that locality some weeks or months and conducted regular information service with a permanent staff and confidential agents. But, in the eight days one may have stayed in one location this was not possible except for coincidences or chance but this did not occur as far as I know.
QMay I ask now something else. You were the second highest ranking officer in Sonderkommando IV-B, is that correct?
AYes.
QYou have stated that even in the absence of the commander you did not represent him, you were not this deputy, but that in everyone's sphere of work the designated expert had to decide for himself when the commander was not there. That means, in other words, you in SD matters and the men who was in charge of Department IV, in Gestapo matters, executivematters?
Is that right?
AYes.
QYou have stated also that it happened sometimes, rather seldom, that Herrmann was away either for hours or for a day.
AI said for a day.
QAnd that there was no deputy in charge.
AYes.
QDid it happen sometimes that Herrmann and the officer who was in charge of Department IV were away at the same time?
AThat might have happened, yes.
QIf at such a time therewould have been an emergency case in the executive field, in the field of Department IV, the order to shoot somebody or people, or the order to arrest some people, or an order regarding executive measures, to whom would it have been left to order this measure?
AIn that case that would have been the other Police Officer or the other SS-Obersturmfuehrer who present who acted as deputy for executive measures because he was an expert on such matters.
QThat was an Officer?
A an SS-Obersturmfuehrer, a Police Commissar, a 1st Lieutenant.
QWould not that have been your task?
ANo. Apart from the face, Mr. Prosecutor, if I may add thisyou talked about executions. I doubt here whether this is a case which we can consider as an example - a person who was to be shot, say it is quite obvious in that case and would not depend on waiting until the Kommando leader would return in two hours or the same evening.
QMight well have happened? It would have been against security measures to take the boy with you. You have told the Tribunal yourself that it happened that the Kommando leader sometimes left the Kommando and left the marching orders to a deputy.
It could have happened in such a time that such a case would arise - anyhow it is a hypothetical question and it would not have been your task so I do not think you need to go into that much further.
Can you tell the Tribunal when you were transferred from Department I to Department VI of the RSHA?
AYes, in September 1943.
Q 1943
AYes, 1943.
QCan you tell us why this transfer was carried out?
AYes, when I passed my assessor examination I had completed my training as candidate for the leasing service. Therefore, I held the lowest rank as a member of the leading service. Therefore, I returned to the expert field of the SD which I left during the time of my training and study. At the time inquiries were being made which tasks the individuals would like to work on. I myself was interested in the information from abroad. I therefore asked that I would be assigned to this, Office VI at that time needed people for this particularly and, therefore, I was sent to office VI.
QYou learned quite a lot of things in the East about the activities of the Einsatzgruppen which, as you have told the Tribunal in direct examination, did not like very much. You have also told me just now that you were shocked by the fact that it was a summary procedure and that your units were to carry out executions themselves. Did you ever, after having returned from the East, try to leave the SD service?
ARepeatedly until 1944 did I try to be released for the fighting forces. In every case I was refused, After 1944 it wasn't possible any more because having been ill I was no longer able to do service in the fighting forces.
QWhich were your motives, Herr Fendler, why you wanted to leave the SD and go into the Wehrmacht? Was it for the reason that you wanted to fight on the front or was it for the reason that you considered that your work with the SD was not a work you wanted, for instance?
AThe reason was that I simply wanted to join the fighting forces. I considered myself too young, before 1943, just to study while the others were fighting. And, secondly, after 1943, I considered myself too young to work in the staff in Berlin and not to be with the fighting forces.
QSo, if I understand you then correctly it was not that you considered the SD to be an organization which did things you did not like? You just wanted to leave the SD for patriotic reasons as you wanted to fight on the front, is that right?
AAt the time I did not consider the SD to be a criminal organization, if I may use that expression in this connection.
QBut, nevertheless, you learned a lot about executions and killings and so on. Did you consider these measures about which you had learned in the East to be justified?
ANo.
QDid you consider them to be humane?
ANo.
QNevertheless you did you not want to leave the SD for these reasons? Is that correct?
AYes. If I may just explain this in one sentence, Mr. Prosecutor. I did not consider these things to be the affair of the SD. If I may explain this - in the Einsatzkommandos there were members from all parts of the SS working together. The SD itself held the smallest number among this. It was once worked out. I think it was only 38 and I knew from my own experiences, from my work until then, that executions and executive tasks were not being handled by the SD, that they merely handled information.
QYou have said that only 3% of the members of the Einsatzgruppen were members of the SD, is that correct, approximately?
AYes. To explain this, not in the entire organization, but in the reporting section, that is a formation of the SS.
QIs it not true that at least most of the officers were members of the SD, most of the officers in the Einsatzgruppen?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, if I may express it in that manner. Please excuse officers of the SD, were drafted into these Einsatzcommandos through unauthorized military power which actually had nothing to do with the SD as it had existed until then. It wasn't the initiative of these individual men and the work of these men in the Einsatzgruppen which is the subject being debated in this trial which resulted in the work done, but I don't know quite all the connections, whether Himmler or Heydrich were responsible for it.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will now take its afternoon recess for 15 minutes.
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT:Proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD:
QMay it please the Tribunal, Herr Fendler, there are certain documents in evidence which show that in a time when you were second highest ranking officer in Sonderkommando 4b, people werekilled in great numbers by this unit, and I would like you to lllok now at Document Book II-A. This is on page 81 of the English, your Honor. Document NO-2938, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 44. The quote to which I refer is on Page 81 under the heading, "Page 14 of the original". It reads: "The Einsatzkommando 4b is at work at present in the Tarnopol area. It is planned to have the Kommando proceed to Preskurow. Out of the 54 Poles and Jews who had been working as agents for the NKWD, 8 persons, two of them being Jewish woman, could be arrested and executed, the remainder having taken to their heels apparently." It goes on: " At Tarnolop also 10 soldiers were found to be among the murdered in the prison, one of them being a lieutenant of the air force, 6 pilots and 3 soldiers off the mountain troops. Of the Jews assigned to the excavation of the corpses, about 180 were slain, partly in the prison court, party in the streets. Moreover, Jewish residences were destroyed by members of the Waffen-SS with hand-grenades and set on fire." Did you know anything about the things reported in this situation report?
AMay I clarify something about your introductory statement? I wasn't the second in command of the kommando.
QYou were second highest ranking officer, weren't you?
AThe second highest rank, not the second in command in the kommando.
THE PRESIDENT:Who was the second in command?
THE WITNESS:There was no on in general.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, if you are the second senior officer, who would be the second in command?
THE WITNESS:The second in command was that person who was appointed by the commander in each individual case.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, suppose he didn't appoint, suppose that the commander were killed, who would take over?
THE WITNESS:The senior officer present at that moment.
THE PRESIDENT:That would be you, wouldn't it?
THE WITNESS:That might have been me, yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, proceed.
Q (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) Did you know, Herr Fendler, about the happenings which are described in this report?
AWhat is contained in Paragraph 2 which you just road, that is Paragraph 5, on Page 14 of the original of the 54 Poles and Jews who worked for the NKWD as agents, I heard about this here for the first time.
QWhat did you hear about the killing of the 180 Jews who were assigned to the excavation of the corpses of the members of the German Wehrmacht and were killed partly in the prison court and partly in the streets?
AI heard that excesses occurred, done by the Ukrainian population, and the Ukrainian militia, directed against the Jews in Tarnopol.
QDid you hear how many Jews were killed during these excesses?
ANo.
QBut you heard that the Jews were killed by Ukrainians, is that correct?
AI heard at the time that this had occurred and had been done by the Ukrainians, mostly by those who guarded this excavation work, that is the Ukrainians, and secondly, in the first hours of the occupation of Tarnopol, excesses also occurred done by the German troops against the Jews, because among the few hundred corpses, the figure of 500 is given in the reports, several German prisoners were found, which the Bolshevists, before they had left, had killed in a cruel manner.
The mutilated corpses were found.
QDid you know that this part of the German Wehrmacht who made these excesses were Waffen-SS units?
AI heard at the time that they were members of the German Wehrmacht, particularly the Mountain Corps had taken part, because they were found as corpses in the prison.
QWho was it who ordered these Ukrainians who killed the 180 Jews to supervise the excavations? Am I correct in assuming that that was a German agency who ordered these Ukrainians?
AIn this particular case I cannot give you any information. I can only make a general statement and draw a personal conclusion. This Ukrainians militia or the regular police, they were called different names in various localities, were always under the command, as far as I heard, of the competent local town commandant to whom they were subordinated, who employed them as provisional police.
QBut, as a matter of fact, Herr Fendler, you know something about these happenings here, so may I assume then that you knew that Jews here were deliberately killed either by members of the German Wehrmacht or by members of the German Waffen-SS or by members of the Ukrainian militia which was nothing else than a submit of some German agency in these places, is that correct?
AI did not quite get the question.
QIt is correct that you knew something about the happenings which are described here in this report, is that right?
AI have already said that I heard about it, that excesses did occur.
QYou knew also that these excesses were instigated and carried out by agencies either of the German Wehrmacht or of the German WaffenSS or of the SD?
ANo, I did not know that.
QBut you knew that it was instigated by the Wehrmacht, as you said, and you knew that the killers of these 180 Jews were Ukrainian militia which were active under German supervision, did you not?
AYes, I cannot say anything about who started the action originally and whether actually somebody instigated this action. At the time I heard that spontaneous actions occurred which are to be regretted and I was sorrowful about that.
QWho were the people who acted spontaneously? They were Germans and people who had authority from the Germans, is that correct? That means the Ukrainian militia, is that correct?
ANo. As I just said, at the time when I heard about these things, I gained the impression, that no authority existed, but that these were merely excesses done by individuals who then, as it is usual on such occasions, increased, because they were not conducted and not corrected.
QBut you know at least, that in Tarnopol a great number of Jews were killed, is that right?
AI did not hear of a great number. I did not hear any figure concerning this or concerning these excesses. The figures mentioned in the reports of events here I saw for the first time when I read these reports here, during the trial.
QDid you hear how many - or what did the people say who told you the story about these excesses, approximately how many Jews were killed during these excesses?
ANo, I said already that I did not hear any figures mentioned about this.
QI had a feeling that you made the statements solely about executions. You have told us now a story about excesses so I would ask you whether you know or whether you were told how many Jews were killed during these excesses?
AI beg your pardon. It appears we have been talking on different subjects all the time. I only talked about the excesses.
QYes, that is what I asked you.
AI did not hear any figure concerning the victims of these excesses.
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: You will see in document book IIC, the document I am referring too your Honors, on Page 49 of the English. It is Document No-2934, Prosecution's Exhibit 78.
THE PRESIDENT:What book?
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: II-C, on page 49. It is the first paragraph under the heading, "Einsatzkommando 4b". This is an operational situation report which is dated 16th of July - no, I am sorry, 11th of July, 1941, and it is reported here that Einsatzkommando 4b has finished its activity in Tarnopol. 127 executions. Parallel to that, liquidation of 600 Jews in the course of the persecutions of Jews as induced by the Einsatzkommando.
Q (BY Mr. HORLICK-HOCHWALD) Of about 127 executions, if I am not mistaken, you have told the Tribunal that you know only about twenty to thirty, is that correct? You do not know about the--
AThese were carried out by the others.
QYou don't know about the others, approximately one hundred?
ANo.
QWhat do you know about the liquidation of the 600 years in the course of the persecution of Jews as induced by the Einsatzkommando?
AI have already said that my previous testimony concerning the excesses referred to the statements made in this report here as well. I cannot make any statements about this.
QBut, is it not patently clear from this entry that these excesses were by no means spontaneous, as you have said, but that they were induced by the units of which you were the second highest officer, isn't that right?
AThe report shows it in that sense as you just described, Mr. Prosecutor. I personally can only doubt its credibility.
QWhy? You have just told the Tribunal that you have no personal knowledge of it, so either you change this statement or you have no reason to doubt the correctness of this report. I have questioned you at great length, and you have said, "I do not know a thing, I do not know who carried it out; I do not know whether it was instigated; I do not know how many people were killed." Why, then, do you doubt a report which gives all the details about which you profess, just now, to have no knowledge? It can be right; cannot be right, because according to what you have said just a minute ago, you do not know it. Am I mistaken in that?
AMr. Prosecutor, I don't think that the one testimony excludes the other one. I said that looking back at it now I doubt the correctness.
QWhy?
AI doubt the credibility of this report, firstly, because I cannot imagine it according to the character of the kommando chief, that he should have given such instructions or that he should have approved of such a thing if he had heard about this in time and could have stopped it, and secondly, I heard that the kommando leader expressly prohibited members of the kommando to take part in the excesses at all.
QWhen did you learn that?
ADuring my stay in Tarnopol.
QWhy did you give this order?
AI did not give this order.
QWhy did he give it?
AAs a preventive measure.