A.- From the Office for the Repatriation of Ethnic Germans in Gerlin I only received an answer to my letter which I had sent them to the effect that they would try to have me released from the Reich Security Main Office in order to employ me in the Resettlement Office. A few days later I received the notice that the Reich Security Main Office would not release me. As I want to leave the kommando, the only position which I could take up was the position of a liaison officer which now I quite consciously tried to get. At the beginning of August, I managed to be assigned as such, which was made simple insofar as, on account of my close collaboration with Army staffs, I could go on with my reporting activity/
Q.- That was the beginning of August of what year?
A.- 1941.
Q.- Of what nature was your activity as liaison officer?
A.- I was assigned to the G-2, AO-III, and I had to take care that supplies for the SK4a were brought about without difficulties. My special official assignments were the following: Information concerning the military advance, the course of military advance, the front, information to the front, of the front and Army borders. This information was currently passed on to the SK-4a. BY THE PRESIDENT?
Q.- Witness, when you were concerned about having supplies brought in to your kommando. What supplies were involved?
A.- Food and fuel, your Honor.
Q.- How about ammunition?
A.- No, ammunition I do not remembers I do not remember having requested ammunition.
Q.- Now, listen, Witness, you either remember or you don't remember. If you remember food and fuel, you can remember whether you ordered ammunition or not. Did you order ammunition?
A.- No, your Honor.
ammunition?
Q Why did you say just a minute ago that you did not remember? the wrong way. I said I did not remember ever having requested ammunition.
Q Well, that is the way it came through. How, do you, or do you not remember having ordered ammunition for your commando?
Q Do you say definitely that you did not order ammunition?
Q Do you say now definitely that you did not order ammunition? obtained ammunition for the commando.
Q And you say you did not order ammunition? that you were ordering supplies and you said that you had ordered food and fuel, then I asked you "Did you order ammunition", you said, "I do not remember". You said that, didn't you?
Q Now, why didn't you say then, "No, I did not order ammunition"? Why did it require three or four questions for me finally to get your negative answer? more clear, in a more precise manner.
Q It isn't that I am concerned about how you answer the questions please don't believe that. I want to get at the truth, and when you tell me that you don't remember so important an item as ordering ammunition and then just a minute later you say you are sure you did not order ammunition, the question arises as to whether you are attempting to conceal something or not.
That is the only reason I am concerned.
A Your Honor, nay I spy it again. I feel-that if I had obtained end requested ammunition, I would remember it today, but I do not remember having done so and, therefore, I am of the conviction and of the belief that I never obtained ammunition. a way which could include that you did order ammunition. That is right, isn't it? If someone says. "I do not remember", it means he may have done it but does not recall it - that is logical, isn't it? commando? officer.
Q Well, why didn't the administrative officer also order the food and the fuel? tion slips very often for fuel and food at the army authorities. From time to time the strength of the Kommando was reported, and the competent authorities then allotted the food and the fuel for a longer period of time. the fuel, although this was the job of the administrative officer, why wouldn't you have to get requisition slips for the ammunition as well? an officer designated to obtain supplies for the commando and that was the so-called administrative officer, why did you have to order the fuel and the food?
had to take Care of these matters at Army Headquarters. When I was asked, for instance, that I should settle this and this matter with the army authorities, I had to do so. the administrative officer to the extent of ordering food and fuel, why would you not assist him also since the supplies had to come from the army, why did you not assist him also in the obtaining of ammunition, which certainly was a very important item?
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ: officer, and you said just then that among other things your task was to inform authorities about the advance of the army units. What further tasks did you have as a liaison officer? out from the interrogation of prisoners of war about the Russian Hinterland and evaluate them for the RSHA, Office 6. The commander of the SK 4A, Blobel, himself, independently maintained contacts with the Supreme Commander, Field Marshal Reichenau. this man?
A If I may correct this, it wasn't the G-2 of the AOK III, it was G-2, AO III, that means counter-intelligence officer. The then counter-intelligence officer of the 6th Army was Captain Luley, who came under the G-2 of the army. Luley himself was asked by the army to maintain contact with me. When I started my activities, the army was stationed in the vicinity of Shitomir. I was in close contact with Luley.
activities of the army? a No. power of the leaders of the special commando or any such authority?
AAgain, I had no influence on these. My activity as liaison officer with the army was only concerned with reporting activities, apart from the assignments which have already been mentioned. the activity of the Special Commando? BY THE PRESIDENT: report? of reports, one type is the SD reports, which I was writing myself, and which I exchanged with army authorities. The other type were so-called situation reports which were received from the commando dealing with the general political situation and security and which I had to pass on to the army. many executions, so many Jews, so many Communist functionaries, so many saboteurs, so many looters, and so on?
Q Well, if you were reporting on activities, wouldn't that be a very important item of the activities of the commando? situation reports dealt with the whole situation in the army territory, the political situation as it became evident in various spheres, but detailed activities of the commando were not given in these reports. Those were the so-called situation reports.
tions, there are hundreds of them here in these document books how about the SD reports? any executions. One was the field of activities IV, the other was the field of activities III. the army, and it was your duty to keep the army informed on the activities of your commando, and yet you would fail to notify them of the number of executions being performed by the commando, is that what you are telling the Tribunal? deplored to the army these executions? between the two types of reports; one are the SD reports with which I supplied, subordinate army authorities on an exchange basis. The others are situation reports as issued by the commando to the army and which described the general political situation in the army territory.
formed by your commando? your assignment. the army agencies these executions? expressed myself. If I Bay "army", I mean the staff, the operational department of :the VI Army. In the future I shall make a clear distinction here - the army staff -
Q well, we will take a broader term, say military authorities. Did you report to the military authorities the executions being performed by your commando?
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed. BY DR. RATZ: activity of the Special Commando?
A I can not give details about this. I know that the Army decided on the transfer of the Sonderkommando, or at least of parts of it. special commando?
A No, I do not know. The special commando or parts of it operated in the territories to which they had been assigned, and were under the command of the competent divisional commander. As far as I could see the so-called sub-commandos received their directives from these agencies under which they operated.
Q Did you, as a liaison officer, pass on any such directives?
A No. I was with the G-a, AO III, that is, counter-intelligence officer, and as I said, no such orders for executions went to this office.
place - actually, of course, you have already given testimony concerning this?
Q Did any further activity result out of this for you? agriculture, a sub-department of the army staff, and through my reporting activity, we took an important part in the bringing in of the harvest and, of course, members of the commando were employed in the harvest. Book, page 74 of the German, Document Number 2947, Exhibit 82. It is Report of Events 47 of the 9th of August 1941. There it says, I quote:
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I do think that Dr. Dr. Ratz will quote from page 69 of the English under the - or it will be 68 - sorry, 67 -- under the heading "page 8 of the original".
DR. RATZ: I quote, "Particular attention, especially in the villages, is given to the gathering of the coming harvest. The population is in a helpless situation, since the Russians have carried away or have destroyed, respectively, the most needed agricultural machines. The individual labor-squads are therefore working systematically on the preparation of the harvest. Since no Buergermeisters have so far been installed by the Wehrmacht, especially in the remote villages, this has been taken in hand everywhere, subject to later regulations, by the Kommandos and with great success." BY DR. RATZ:
A The situation as it is partly described here was as follows: It was my task to negotiate with the group agriculture and the commando and to arranger that the commando put a number of people at the disposal of the agricultural group in order to repair the agricultural machinery.
I mention here that, for instance, in the vicinity of Shitomir, of 3,000 tractors, 2,700 were partly or wholly destroyed "by the Russians when they left and that one machine was constructed from many which were out of use in order to use it for the harvest. answer, did you undertake any further steps in your personal matter?
A Yes. When the entire kommando moved into Shitomir, a company of the Waffen SS consisting of two platoons had been assigned to it for the military security in the northern territory of Shitomir in the band-infested area. One day in the beginning of August, the CO of this company came to my office and asked for a confidential discussion. He said that the Einsatzgruppe to which he was subordinated had ordered him to disperse his company and to put the men at the disposal of other Einsatzkommandos. He feared that these could then be used for executions and that they would no longer be under his control and supervision as from then. I supported the company commander in his attempts to keep his unit from the activity of the other Einsatzkommandos and the success we achieved was that the Waffen SS company was released. In the course of this procedure, I, together with this above-mentioned company commander, went to the officer of the Einsatzkommando 6, as we wanted to ask him to intervene at the Einsatzgruppe and it was at that time in the vicinity of the Einsatzkommando 6. On this occasion I described to him my personal situation. He warned me very urgently not to take any direct steps concerning my release. Shitomir. How long did you remain in the Shitomir sector?
Then I received the assignment, not to proceed with the stiff of the army, that is, the operational department which was to by-pass Kiev with the advancing troops -- but to go to Kiev immediately in order to seize documents and secure them and then to rejoin the army staff which intended to take up quarters in Kiev.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will he in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. LEIS: Dr. Leis representing Dr. Aschenauer for the defendant Ohlendorf. Your Honor, I would like to ask that the defendant Ohlendorf be excused from attendance in court this afternoon, and all day tomorrow in order to prepare the Document Books. Concerning this afternoon, I ask that the defendant Ohlendorf be brought to Room 57.
THE PRESIDENT:- The defendant Ohlendorf will he excused from attendance in Court this afternoon and all day tomorrow. This afternoon he will he taken to Room 57 where he may confer with his counsel. DR. LEIS: Representing Dr. Koessl for the defendant Ott, Your Honor, I also ask that the defendant Ott be excused from attendance in court this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon in order to prepare document books.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Ott will he excused from attendance in court this afternoon and all day tomorrow. This afternoon he will be taken to Room 57 where he may confer with his counsel.
DR. LEIS: It will he sufficient if he be excused only this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: There will he a correction in the defendant Ott's case. He will he excused from attendance in court this afternoon and tomorrow, Wednesday, afternoon.
DR. LEIS: I think you.
DR. GICK: Dr. Gick representing Herr von Stein for the defendant Sandberger. Your Honor, I also ask that the defendant Sandberger be excused for the entire day tomorrow from attendance in court in order to prepare his document books.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Sandberger will he excused from attendance in court all attendance in court all day tomorrow in order that he may work on his document book. BY DR. RATZ:
Q Witness, when did you arrive in Kiev?
However, I didn't find them, and contacted the combat troops.
THE PRESIDENT: What question did you ask, Dr. Ratz?
DR. RATZ: When did you arrive in Kiev?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, now why can't you tell us when you arrived? Why is it necessary to start with the beginning of the World to tell us when you arrived in Kiev? Give the precise answer, and then if it's necessary to explain it, then you can explain, but you keep us in suspense for a long time before you tell us what your counsel has so clearly asked, isn't that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, answer the question directly, and when it is necessary to tell us about all of Germany, and how you got there, all right, then we will have it, hut let's have the answer directly.
THE WITNESS: I can not give any date for this, because I have no possibility of reconstructing this.
THE PRESIDENT: Then your answer is, I don't know when I arrived in Kiev.
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Now put your next question, Dr. Ratz, and I presume it is, why don't you know, then he will tell us why he does not know. Or maybe, it will be, I don't know why I don't know, and then we will get into a very nice discussion on why he does not know, why he does not know. BY DR. RATZ:
Q Did you come to Kiev with an Advance Commando? However, I didn't find them, and contacted the fighting troops, namely, the Division of General Obstfelder in the City of Kiev when the city was captured.
Q In Kiev did you join the SK IV-A and its advance commando again?
Q What did the advance commando do in Kiev?
securing NKWD buildings as billets for the Einsatzgruppe and SK IV-A.
Q What did you do in Kiev? documents, as usual. This activity was made more difficult because lots of buildings had been destroyed, and the results were small because the Soviets had had sufficient time to clear everything away according to plan. Nonetheless, here in the capital of the Ukraine where the central authorities existed, I looked in the institutions concerned for such material.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ratz, while, of course, the defendant has stated he does not know when he arrived in Kiev that settles it; still we ought to have some general idea as to the year, as to the season, the month, if possible, but some general idea, so we can chronologically fit it into the general picture. BY DR. RATZ:
Q Witness, please, will you answer the question of the President? 1941, Kiev was captured. It must have been the 19th or 20th when I arrived in Kiev. rest of SK IV-A come to Kiev? had been captured.
Q What did you continue to do in Kiev? because almost all public buildings had been mined had to be dynamited.
Q Was the Higher SS and Police Leader Jeckeln present in Kiev? commando took up new billets. The billets of the Group-staff and the units under the supervision of High SS and Police Leader Jeckeln were on the other side of the street.
Kiev which had been intended originally? but the operational department changed their original intentions, because of the insecurity in Kiev, and because the Army continued to advance to Charkow.
Q When did EK-V come to Kiev? the same time as the Group-staff.
Q How long did you stay in Kiev? department of the Army staff was not coming to Kiev, I received the order to go to the Army staff, and simultaneously to set up a liaison between the Army group and the Einsatzcommando. I travelled to the Staff of the Army, which was stationed in a small locality northeast of Kiev, but about twenty-five kilometers from Kiev, I had to turn back because my car broke down, and the car had to be towed away.
Q At that time did any changes take place in SK-IV-A?
A In the meantime the command had changed in Kiev. Together with the Group Staff arrived a great number of new officers who were to be distributed among all the various commandos in exchange for officers who were ordered back to Berlin. These new officers partly were stationed at the garrison of SK IV-A, and some were with the Groupstaff, and some were with Einsatzcommando-V, and participated in the work of the various commandos to which they had been distributed. I myself was temporarily given the job of supervising the work within SK IV-A until my car had been repaired.
Q What do you mean by work within the unit? the kitchen down to the incoming and outgoing mail, in fact.
Q How long did this temporary work last?
A This lasted until my car had been repaired. This was about four to five days. in SK IV-A, did you also make an attempt to try to be released? deal with this in the Group and asked him for my release. He told me that this was impossible, that I could not be relieved either, because there I had no central office in the Homeland to which I could he sent back.
THE PRESIDENT: With whom did you speak, witness?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, with he competent personnel department chief in Einsatzgruppe-C.
Q Now wait here. With the competent personnel chief. With whom was that, tell us with whom did you speak?
Q All right. And who was he?
A I don't know his name. I can not remember.
Q What was his rank?
Q And when did this happen?
Q. What year?
A. 1941.
Q. And where did this take place?
A. That was in Kiev.
Q. Now you had told us about an attempt of this character sometime before. Where was that, and when was it?
A. Your Honor, this was a letter to the Ethnic German Resettlement Office, which I wrote in Luck, at the beginning of July 1941.
Q. Did you get a reply to that letter?
A. Yes, about a month later I first got a semi-approval, and a few days later I received a final rejection.
Q. The first letter said that possible you would be released?
A. Yes.
Q. And then a few days later, another letter came saying that you would not be released?
A. Yes.
Q. Then wrote two letters on the same subject?
A. Yes, In the first letter it said they would try to release me from the RSHA, and to return me to the Ethnic German Resettlement Office, and the second letter said that they had not succeeded in this.
Q. All right, Now this was in the beginning of July 1941 when you made your effort to get out of Einsatzcommando?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you tried again in September?
A. Yes.
Q. 1941, by talking to the competent personnel chief of Einsatzgruppe-C?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he say?
A. He told me that I could not be released because I had been assigned to an assignment in the East on an emergency war status, and he also told me that I could not be relieved either like other officers, because I had no domestic agency to where they could return me in such a case.
Q. That I don't understand. You had no domestic agency to which you could be returned. Just what does that mean?
A. Your Honor, the individual officers of the commando came from the various agencies in the Reichs Security Main Office in the Reich.
Q. I see?
A. They were put on TDY and were returned to these agencies but I was on an emergency war status for an assignment in the East, and I could not be sent back, I could only be released.
Q. Did a replacement always have to come from the office which had ariginally supplied the officer?
A. Later on it was handled in that manner. I don't think it was that way at the time because the officers of the leading service returned to their studies, and other officers were brought in from other agencies. Later on it was handled in that manner in practice, that officers who wanted to be released contacted an officer in their home agency in the Reich, and if he was prepared to go out in his place, then they could try an exchange in that manner.
Q. Well, I asked you, did the regulations provide that a replacement could only come from the office which had originally supplied the officer involved?
A. I presume so, but I cannot say anything definite about this.
Q. Suppose that some one had originally been supplied by Office II of the RSHA, and then this officer was killed in the field, and Office II could not supply a replacement. Well, they would try to get an officer from somewhere else, wouldn't they?
A. I assume so.
Q. But in your case they said that he had to come from the Ethnic German Resettlement Mission, and there was no one there to take his place?
A. Yes, the RSHA had no influence over the Ethnic German Resettle ment Office, and the Ethnic Resettlement Office would probably not have requested a replacement for me.
Q All right. Then that was two occasions while you were with the Einsatz Kommando that you tried to be relieved? Office in July, 41, and another occasion with the Einsatzgruppe in September, 1941. you were with the Einsatz Kommando? 6.
Q When was that?
Q Whom did you speak to there?
Q And what was his position?
Q And what did you ask him? East, and he told me that this could not be done in a direct manner and that he would not advise me to try; that I should wait until there is an opportunity to be relieved and this opportunity came at the end of September or the beginning of October in Kiev.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Proceed, Dr. Rats.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RATZ: involuntarily because of the breakdown of your car. This stay lasted how long?
A It took until the car had been repaired. That was about four to five days.
Q. Where did you go after that time elapsed? time in Perjaslaw because in the meantime the Army staff had been trans ferred there.
THE PRESIDENT: How many days did you say you were held up because of the repair of the car?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I say how long did it take to repair the car?
THE WITNESS: I can't say exactly. It might have been four or six days.
THE PRESIDENT: Just about the same length of time it takes to repair a car in Nurnberg. I think you had better service in Kiev than we have here. Very well, proceed, Dr. Ratz.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, I give to you document book 2-C, page 49 of the German text -
MR. HOCHWALD: Page 43 of the English, your Honors, the first paragraph on the top.
THE PRESIDENT: You are a pretty good mind reader, Mr. Hochwald.
MR. HOCHWALD: The assistant of Dr. Ratz told me your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I see. I was giving you credit for clairvoyance.
MR. HOCHWALD: And there is no other quotation in this particular document which refers to the case of the defendant von Radetzky.
Q (By Dr. Ratz cont'd) Document NO-3137, exhibit number 76, report of events number 101 of 2 October 1941. It says here on the first page, and I quote: "Sonderkommando 4 in collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of police regiment South executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev on the 29th and 30th September 1941." When did you hear something about this execution? through Blobel.
Q Do you know in how far the Kommando took part in this?
Q Do you know which other units took part in the execution?
A I do not know exactly. I did hear that the execution was carried out by police units under the supervision of Jeckeln.