THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. LEIS:Dr. Leis representing Dr. Aschenauer for the defendant Ohlendorf. Your Honor, I would like to ask that the defendant Ohlendorf be excused from attendance in court this afternoon, and all day tomorrow in order to prepare the Document Books. Concerning this afternoon, I ask that the defendant Ohlendorf be brought to Room 57.
THEPRESIDENT:- The defendant Ohlendorf will he excused from attendance in Court this afternoon and all day tomorrow. This afternoon he will he taken to Room 57 where he may confer with his counsel. DR. LEIS: Representing Dr. Koessl for the defendant Ott, Your Honor, I also ask that the defendant Ott be excused from attendance in court this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon in order to prepare document books.
THE PRESIDENT:The defendant Ott will he excused from attendance in court this afternoon and all day tomorrow. This afternoon he will be taken to Room 57 where he may confer with his counsel.
DR. LEIS:It will he sufficient if he be excused only this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT:There will he a correction in the defendant Ott's case. He will he excused from attendance in court this afternoon and tomorrow, Wednesday, afternoon.
DR. LEIS:I think you.
DR. GICK:Dr. Gick representing Herr von Stein for the defendant Sandberger. Your Honor, I also ask that the defendant Sandberger be excused for the entire day tomorrow from attendance in court in order to prepare his document books.
THE PRESIDENT:The defendant Sandberger will he excused from attendance in court all attendance in court all day tomorrow in order that he may work on his document book. BY DR. RATZ:
QWitness, when did you arrive in Kiev?
AI received the order if possible to Join the Advance Commando.
However, I didn't find them, and contacted the combat troops.
THE PRESIDENT:What question did you ask, Dr. Ratz?
DR. RATZ:When did you arrive in Kiev?
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, now why can't you tell us when you arrived? Why is it necessary to start with the beginning of the World to tell us when you arrived in Kiev? Give the precise answer, and then if it's necessary to explain it, then you can explain, but you keep us in suspense for a long time before you tell us what your counsel has so clearly asked, isn't that right?
THE WITNESS:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Now, answer the question directly, and when it is necessary to tell us about all of Germany, and how you got there, all right, then we will have it, hut let's have the answer directly.
THE WITNESS:I can not give any date for this, because I have no possibility of reconstructing this.
THE PRESIDENT:Then your answer is, I don't know when I arrived in Kiev.
THE WITNESS:Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Now put your next question, Dr. Ratz, and I presume it is, why don't you know, then he will tell us why he does not know. Or maybe, it will be, I don't know why I don't know, and then we will get into a very nice discussion on why he does not know, why he does not know. BY DR. RATZ:
QDid you come to Kiev with an Advance Commando?
AI received the order to join the advance commando in Kiev. However, I didn't find them, and contacted the fighting troops, namely, the Division of General Obstfelder in the City of Kiev when the city was captured.
QIn Kiev did you join the SK IV-A and its advance commando again?
AYes.
QWhat did the advance commando do in Kiev?
ASofar as I heard the advance commando carried out the task of securing NKWD buildings as billets for the Einsatzgruppe and SK IV-A.
QWhat did you do in Kiev?
ATogether with a few people I searched some of the buildings for documents, as usual. This activity was made more difficult because lots of buildings had been destroyed, and the results were small because the Soviets had had sufficient time to clear everything away according to plan. Nonetheless, here in the capital of the Ukraine where the central authorities existed, I looked in the institutions concerned for such material.
QAs far as you remember---
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Ratz, while, of course, the defendant has stated he does not know when he arrived in Kiev that settles it; still we ought to have some general idea as to the year, as to the season, the month, if possible, but some general idea, so we can chronologically fit it into the general picture. BY DR. RATZ:
QWitness, please, will you answer the question of the President?
AYour Honor, I saw from the reports of events that on 19 September 1941, Kiev was captured. It must have been the 19th or 20th when I arrived in Kiev.
QAs far as you remember, when did the Einsatzgruppe and the rest of SK IV-A come to Kiev?
AThey arrived about four or five days after the city of Kiev had been captured.
QWhat did you continue to do in Kiev?
AI continued my work with the assistance of the engineers, because almost all public buildings had been mined had to be dynamited.
QWas the Higher SS and Police Leader Jeckeln present in Kiev?
AYes, after the fires in Kiev had been put under control, the commando took up new billets. The billets of the Group-staff and the units under the supervision of High SS and Police Leader Jeckeln were on the other side of the street.
QDid the staff of the Army in Kiev take up the quarters in Kiev which had been intended originally?
ANo, parts of the staff of the army had gone to Kiev directly, but the operational department changed their original intentions, because of the insecurity in Kiev, and because the Army continued to advance to Charkow.
QWhen did EK-V come to Kiev?
AThe Einsatzcommando-V sofar as I remember, arrived in Kiev at the same time as the Group-staff.
QHow long did you stay in Kiev?
AWhen after about one week it became known that the operational department of the Army staff was not coming to Kiev, I received the order to go to the Army staff, and simultaneously to set up a liaison between the Army group and the Einsatzcommando. I travelled to the Staff of the Army, which was stationed in a small locality northeast of Kiev, but about twenty-five kilometers from Kiev, I had to turn back because my car broke down, and the car had to be towed away.
Q At that time did any changes take place in SK-IV-A?
AIn the meantime the command had changed in Kiev. Together with the Group Staff arrived a great number of new officers who were to be distributed among all the various commandos in exchange for officers who were ordered back to Berlin. These new officers partly were stationed at the garrison of SK IV-A, and some were with the Groupstaff, and some were with Einsatzcommando-V, and participated in the work of the various commandos to which they had been distributed. I myself was temporarily given the job of supervising the work within SK IV-A until my car had been repaired.
QWhat do you mean by work within the unit?
AThis is work coverning supervision of buildings, starting from the kitchen down to the incoming and outgoing mail, in fact.
QHow long did this temporary work last?
AThis lasted until my car had been repaired. This was about four to five days.
QOn the occasion of the exchange of officers of the leading service in SK IV-A, did you also make an attempt to try to be released?
AYes, I talked to the department chief who was competent to deal with this in the Group and asked him for my release. He told me that this was impossible, that I could not be relieved either, because there I had no central office in the Homeland to which I could he sent back.
THE PRESIDENT:With whom did you speak, witness?
THE WITNESS:Your Honor, with he competent personnel department chief in Einsatzgruppe-C.
QNow wait here. With the competent personnel chief. With whom was that, tell us with whom did you speak?
AI talked to the personnel chief of Einsatzgruppe-C.
QAll right. And who was he?
AI don't know his name. I can not remember.
QWhat was his rank?
AHe was Hauptsturmfuehrer.
QAnd when did this happen?
AThat was the end of September or the beginning of October.
Q.What year?
A. 1941.
Q.And where did this take place?
A.That was in Kiev.
Q.Now you had told us about an attempt of this character sometime before. Where was that, and when was it?
A.Your Honor, this was a letter to the Ethnic German Resettlement Office, which I wrote in Luck, at the beginning of July 1941.
Q.Did you get a reply to that letter?
A.Yes, about a month later I first got a semi-approval, and a few days later I received a final rejection.
Q.The first letter said that possible you would be released?
A.Yes.
Q.And then a few days later, another letter came saying that you would not be released?
A.Yes.
Q.Then wrote two letters on the same subject?
A.Yes, In the first letter it said they would try to release me from the RSHA, and to return me to the Ethnic German Resettlement Office, and the second letter said that they had not succeeded in this.
Q.All right, Now this was in the beginning of July 1941 when you made your effort to get out of Einsatzcommando?
A.Yes.
Q.And then you tried again in September?
A.Yes.
Q. 1941, by talking to the competent personnel chief of Einsatzgruppe-C?
A.Yes.
Q.And what did he say?
A.He told me that I could not be released because I had been assigned to an assignment in the East on an emergency war status, and he also told me that I could not be relieved either like other officers, because I had no domestic agency to where they could return me in such a case.
Q.That I don't understand. You had no domestic agency to which you could be returned. Just what does that mean?
A.Your Honor, the individual officers of the commando came from the various agencies in the Reichs Security Main Office in the Reich.
Q.I see?
A.They were put on TDY and were returned to these agencies but I was on an emergency war status for an assignment in the East, and I could not be sent back, I could only be released.
Q.Did a replacement always have to come from the office which had ariginally supplied the officer?
A.Later on it was handled in that manner. I don't think it was that way at the time because the officers of the leading service returned to their studies, and other officers were brought in from other agencies. Later on it was handled in that manner in practice, that officers who wanted to be released contacted an officer in their home agency in the Reich, and if he was prepared to go out in his place, then they could try an exchange in that manner.
Q.Well, I asked you, did the regulations provide that a replacement could only come from the office which had originally supplied the officer involved?
A.I presume so, but I cannot say anything definite about this.
Q.Suppose that some one had originally been supplied by Office II of the RSHA, and then this officer was killed in the field, and Office II could not supply a replacement. Well, they would try to get an officer from somewhere else, wouldn't they?
A.I assume so.
Q.But in your case they said that he had to come from the Ethnic German Resettlement Mission, and there was no one there to take his place?
A.Yes, the RSHA had no influence over the Ethnic German Resettle ment Office, and the Ethnic Resettlement Office would probably not have requested a replacement for me.
QAll right. Then that was two occasions while you were with the Einsatz Kommando that you tried to be relieved?
ANo, your Honor, one occasion with the ethnic German Resettlement Office in July, 41, and another occasion with the Einsatzgruppe in September, 1941.
QWell, I say, in all you made two efforts to be relieved while you were with the Einsatz Kommando?
AYes, and beyond that I talked to the Commander of Einsatzkommando 6.
QWhen was that?
AThat was in the middle of August, 1941.
QWhom did you speak to there?
AI talked to Standartenfuehrer Kroeger.
QAnd what was his position?
AHe was chief of Einsatzkommando 6.
QAnd what did you ask him?
AI told him that I wanted to get away from the assignment in the East, and he told me that this could not be done in a direct manner and that he would not advise me to try; that I should wait until there is an opportunity to be relieved and this opportunity came at the end of September or the beginning of October in Kiev.
THE PRESIDENT:All right. Proceed, Dr. Rats.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RATZ:
QWitness, you said previously that in Kiev you had to stay involuntarily because of the breakdown of your car. This stay lasted how long?
AIt took until the car had been repaired. That was about four to five days.
Q.Where did you go after that time elapsed?
AAgain I went to the operational department of the Army, this time in Perjaslaw because in the meantime the Army staff had been trans ferred there.
THE PRESIDENT:How many days did you say you were held up because of the repair of the car?
THE WITNESS:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:I say how long did it take to repair the car?
THE WITNESS:I can't say exactly. It might have been four or six days.
THE PRESIDENT:Just about the same length of time it takes to repair a car in Nurnberg. I think you had better service in Kiev than we have here. Very well, proceed, Dr. Ratz.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, I give to you document book 2-C, page 49 of the German text -
MR. HOCHWALD:Page 43 of the English, your Honors, the first paragraph on the top.
THE PRESIDENT:You are a pretty good mind reader, Mr. Hochwald.
MR. HOCHWALD:The assistant of Dr. Ratz told me your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Oh, I see. I was giving you credit for clairvoyance.
MR. HOCHWALD:And there is no other quotation in this particular document which refers to the case of the defendant von Radetzky.
Q (By Dr. Ratz cont'd) Document NO-3137, exhibit number 76, report of events number 101 of 2 October 1941. It says here on the first page, and I quote: "Sonderkommando 4 in collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of police regiment South executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev on the 29th and 30th September 1941." When did you hear something about this execution?
ADuring the time when I was in Kiev I heard about this execution through Blobel.
QDo you know in how far the Kommando took part in this?
ANo, I do not remember that.
QDo you know which other units took part in the execution?
AI do not know exactly. I did hear that the execution was carried out by police units under the supervision of Jeckeln.
QDid you hear anything about the person responsible for this execution?
AI know nothing from my own knowledge concerning this either. I merely know from hearsay that the Higher SS and Police Leader and the Einsatzgruppe had ordered the execution and taken part in it.
QWho told you this?
AI believe I heard this from Blobel as well.
QFinally, I would like to refer to the chapter on Kiev, and I would like to address to you the unambiguous question, did you personally in any manner take part in this execution?
AI did not participate in the execution. As I have already said, only through official channels did I hear about it.
QYou said before that after the period of four to five days elapsed which was necessary to have your car repaired, you again rejoined the Army. Why did you again go to the Army?
AMy official order remained the same, to maintain contact with the Army as liaison officer. I had to do this as soon as possible.
QWhere did you rejoin, the Army?
AI knew that the Army Staff had been transferred to Perjaslaw. That is why I went there. In Perjaslaw I only met a rear-guard Kommando of the Army. I reached the Army Staff which was on the way to Poltawa in Lubny then.
QDid the activity you already described as liaison officer continue?
AYes, but added to this was now the passing on of the so-called situation, that is, the changes in the front lines as available at the G-2 department of the Army, to the Einsatzgruppe and to the Kommando.
QWhat was your social and official position in the Army and in the Army Group in general?
AAs I have already said I was attached to the G-2 of the Army and visited the G-2 of the Army perhaps two or three times, every time I needed the large situation map for which I needed special permission from him.
The competent office for me was the G-2, AO III, counter-intelligence officer. Neither the Chief of the Staff nor Reichenau himself ever received me; the first one because he did not want to hear of me, and as for the latter, I had already introduced myself to him on the road from Sokal to Luck. At the Army Group I met a man from the same district when I was with the G-2, Lt. Col. Freytag-Loringhofen, with whom I became friends.
QWhy did you not have close contact with the G-2 of the Army Group?
ABecause the Einsatzgruppe there had a direct connection through visits of officers who had been assigned for that job.
QI now refer to document book 2-A, page 69 of the German text, document NO-3405, exhibit number 42.
MR. HOCHWALD:Page 57 of the English document book, but Dr. Ratz will quote from page 65 under the heading, "Activity of Teilkommando, Sonderkommando 4-A at Poltawa."
Q (By Dr. Ratz) It is the report of events number 156 of 16 January 1942. There it says about the activity of the Sub-Kommando of SK 4 A in Poltawa: "A major Jewish action took place on 23 November 1941, after the Jewish population had been requested by means of posters to report on the previous day. Altogether 1,538 Jews were shot." Did you have anything to do with this action?
ANo. In Poltawa while I was there, a Kommando of Sonderkommando 4B was there, also the advance Kommando Charkow, and a Subkommando of the SK 4 A as well as the remaining Kommando passed through Poltawa. Also a subkommando of Einsatzkommando 5 was there during that time. The Einsatzkommando 4 B had their quarters in the center of the city, while I, with the Army department with which I was, lived outside of Poltawa. The Kommandos that passed through always took up their quarters with Sonderkommando 4 B, and I know about their presence because they had to turn to me if they wanted to have orders to advance or if they wanted supplies from the Army, because the economic and administrative offices of the Army sent them to me as the competent liaison officer.
QWitness, you have commented on various actions by now which are mentioned in the prosecution documents insofar as your personal responsibility is concerned. Beyond that, further executions are mentioned of which you heard, according to the prosecution documents. Did you take part in these executions in some manner?
ANo.
QDid you take part in any other executions within the SK 4 A or the AOK 6 or Einsatzgruppe C?
ANo.
QCan you summarize for the Tribunal how it happens that during the time when the SK 4 A was under Blobel's command, you did not take part in the executive tasks of the SK 4 A?.
AIt was partly owing to the fact that I had no security police training, and only in time got used to the SD reporting. Concerning the first, the Commander of SK 4 A, Blobel, had given me the limits of my work as interpreter. Two possibilities existed here, either to be active as interpreter during interrogations or to assist in making reports, since the mission of seizing documents alone could not take up my entire time of work, in particular at the time when the front was not moving and no new localities were captured. Work as interpreter during interrogations would necessarily have brought me in connection with the executive work. That is why I tried repeatedly to avoid this. I never carried out interrogations. My activity as liaison officer right from the beginning excluded the possibility of executive work. My position in the Kommando as non-member of the RSHA made me appear not suitable for this.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWell, was it within your province to refuse to act as an interpreter during interrogations?
AYour Honor, I could not refuse, but already before the beginning of the assignment I had been intended for work in the reporting service and could withdraw to that field.
QBut you told us that you were taken because you were an interpreter?
AYes, because of my knowledge of languages I was drafted.
QWell then, if you were taken as an interpreter and your commanding officer assigned you to interpret at an interrogation, how could you refuse to follow his order?
ANo, I could not refuse, then.
QWell then, how did you avoid interpreting at interrogations?
AYes, I did.
QI said, how could you, if you were an interpreter and the commanding officer knew you were an interpreter and they needed an interpreter, wouldn't it be the most logical thing for him to assign you as an interpreter at interrogations?
AMy working day was filled out with the tasks I had been given. I was expert for the department III and later on I was liaison officer.
Q.Well, how did you become an expert in department III? You had not had SD training.
ANo, I did not have that, your Honor. I said -
QWell then, how did you become an expert so quickly?
AI was appointed for this because of my training in economics and my knowledge of languages.
QWell now, we come back to languages again. If you were appointed because of your linguistic accomplishments and your commanding officer needed an interpreter why wouldn't he naturally turn to you who was already known to be a good translator and interpreter?
AYour Honor, there were other interpreters in the Kommando, and the Commander used these interpreters.
QThen you were not used as an interpreter?
AI was never used as interpreter by the Commander. I was never used in interrogations as interpreter either.
QWill you please look at page 65 to which your counsel has directed your attention, and observe the last item on that page which says: "On 18 October 1941 the Teilkommando of SK 4 A at Lubny took over the evaluations of the NKWD files left behind by the Vor-kommando and the handling of current correspondence." Did you do that work?
ANo, your Honor.
QDo you see the item?
AJust a moment, your Honor.
QAt the bottom of the page, on page 65.
ANo, your Honor, I did not do that.
QWell, why didn't you? You were qualified to make this investigation, this evaluation rather?
AThat was not cart of my task. It says here a Subkommando of the SK 4 A, a Teilkommando. I was not in charge of a Teilkommando, a Subkommando, but I was merely liaison officer with the Army Staff.
QWell, at this time you were seizing enemy files and you were evaluating them. You have told us that.
AYes.
QYes. Well then, why wouldn't you, in October, 1941, be engaged in the evaluation of files taken but your own Kommando?
ANo, your Honor, at the time I was liaison officer already. I was with the Army Staff and it would have been quite impossible that the files would have been put at my disposal to work on them there, Evaluation of files by myself when seizing them in Wtek, or Shitomir or Kiev only occurred to that extent that I looked through them, I made a list of them, where it said what the contents of these files were and got then ready to send them to Berlin. I had the mission only to collect documents of basic nature and the question of languages may be cleared up at this point. Russian is the official language in the Ukraine as well, and all documents and decrees throughout the entire Soviet Union which are valid there, were written in Russian.
QYes. Well, now the NKWD files would be basic files, wouldn't they?
AYes, but they were matters which interested the executive department.
QWell, how would they know which department would be interested until you looked them over and indicated what their contents were?
AYour Honor, I knew from previous times the manner of administration in the Soviet Union and I knew where I should look for those matters which concerned me and which had to be of interest to me.
QWere you or were you not engaged in the business of seizing files, as you entered new territory?
AYes.
QYes, all right. Then when you came into Lubny why wouldn't you get these NKWD files?
ABecause that was the task of the Subkommando, the Teilkommando, your Honor.
QWell, you were with the Kommando and you were the one charged with evaluating files because of your knowledge of the Russian language in which these documents were written. Why wouldn't you be charged with responsibility of getting these NKWD files which were very important?
AYour Honor, first of all because I was already a liaison officer with the Army Staff.
QWeren't you doing these two jobs simultaneously, evaluating files and then also acting as liaison officer?
ANo.
QAll right, then, tell us what period you acted as liaison officer and what period you acted in seizing files. Give us the dates.
AYour Honor, I seized files until the beginning of August, 1941.
QWell, that's from June until August?
AYes, June to August.
QWhat date in August?
AWell, about the beginning of August, between 1 and 10 August.
QAll right. Then what did you do?
AThen I became liaison officer with the 6th Army.
QLiaison between the 6th Army and Kommando 4 A?
AYes.
QHow long were you engaged in that kind of work?
AI was engaged in that kind of work, except for interruptions, until the end of May 1942.
QThen what did you do?
AThen I became liaison officer with the 2nd Army and the 2nd Hungarian Army.
QBut always with 4-A?
AYes.
QAnd how long did that last, from May 1942 until when?
AThis lasted until the middle of December 1942.
QThen what did you do?
AThen I became liaison officer with the 8th Hungarian Corps.
QAlways with Kommando 4-A?
ANo, then for Einsatzgruppe C.
QAll right. And how long did that last?
AFrom March until September 1943.
QNow wait there. You said from December 15, 1942 you were liaison officer with the 8th Hungarian Corps. For how long?
AThat must have been for twelve months.
QFor one year? So that takes us up to December 1943.
ANo. From October until December 1943 I was liaison officer with the 2nd Army and the 8th Hungarian Corps.
QWell, now just a moment. You told us that you were liaison officer with the 2nd Hungarian Army from May 1942 until the middle of December 1942. Then from December 15, the middle of December, 1942 you were liaison officer with the 8th Hungarian Corps operating with Einsatzgruppe C. You did that for one year? Now, what followed that?
ANo, your Honor, there is a misunderstanding. I was liaison officer for the 8th Hungarian Corps from March 1943 until September 1943. In between I was on leave.
QYou said that when you were the liaison officer for the 6th Army, from August 10, 1941 until May 1942 there were certain exceptions, certain interruptions?
AYes.
QWhat did you do during these interruptions?
AOne interruption occurred when I stayed in Kiev.
QWas one of these interruptions when you took the files in Lubny?
ANo.
QDo we understand then that this business of seizing files was done by you only between June and August 1 to 10?
AYes.
QYou only were used to seize and evaluate files for about two months?
AYes, and then the days in Kiev were added.
QWell, when was that?
AThat was the end of September or the beginning of October.
QWhat year?
A 1941.
QAnd how long did you do that?
AAll in all about 12 to 14 days.
QSo that for the two month period at the very beginning of your work with the Einsatzkommando and for the 12 to 14 days in Kiev at the end of September 1941 you did not at any time do this work of seizing and evaluating files?
ANo, your Honor.
QSo that in this long period of service with the Einsatzkommando in Russia you were used only for about 21/2 months for this very important work of seizing and evaluating files?
AYour Honor, yes, because later on I became liaison officer and that was my main work.
QProceed, Dr. Ratz. How far is Lubny from Kiev?
AI estimate about 200 kilometers.
QNow you went to great pains to tell us that you were taken into this activity, into the Einsatzgruppe, generally, because of your linguistic attainments.
Yet, in a period involving about three years, you were used for this work for which you were especially gifted only for 21/2 months.
AYes, your Honor, this occurred owing to the fact that I was liaison officer with the 6th Army.
QYes, I know. You have told us that but we come back to this proposition that you were taken into the Einsatzgruppe activity because you were an interpreter, because you knew the Russian language, because you could read documents in the Russian language, and you could evaluate them. In spite of this qualification, highly vital and important to any military organization, you were used for this work for only 21/2 months? That's what you tell us?
AYes, your Honor.
QVery well. BY DR. RATZ:
QWitness, about the turn of 1941-42 did you go on leave?
AIn the middle of December 1941 I went or leave and returned the middle of March 1942 from my leave.
QWhy did you take this leave?
AThe G-2 of the Army group and I had had a discussion and I told him about my attempts to be released from my war emergency status. We discussed together in what manner I could be, or rather would be transferred to an assignment in the Wehrmacht and we agreed that I should go on leave while the G-2 settled this matter in the meantime, The plan was that through intermediation of the superior office of G-2 I should be released from the RSHA and I would then be transferred to the regular army unit.
QDid you go home then?
AYes. I made reports accordingly and returned to my family awaiting for a reply from G-2.
QDid your attempts succeed?