cution?
A I know nothing from my own knowledge concerning this either. I merely know from hearsay that the Higher SS and Police Leader and the Einsatzgruppe had ordered the execution and taken part in it.
Q Who told you this? like to address to you the unambiguous question, did you personally in any manner take part in this execution?
A I did not participate in the execution. As I have already said, only through official channels did I hear about it. which was necessary to have your car repaired, you again rejoined the Army. Why did you again go to the Army? Army as liaison officer. I had to do this as soon as possible.
Q Where did you rejoin, the Army? That is why I went there. In Perjaslaw I only met a rear-guard Kommando of the Army. I reached the Army Staff which was on the way to Poltawa in Lubny then.
Q Did the activity you already described as liaison officer continue? situation, that is, the changes in the front lines as available at the G-2 department of the Army, to the Einsatzgruppe and to the Kommando. Army Group in general? visited the G-2 of the Army perhaps two or three times, every time I needed the large situation map for which I needed special permission from him.
The competent office for me was the G-2, AO III, counter-intelligence officer. Neither the Chief of the Staff nor Reichenau himself ever received me; the first one because he did not want to hear of me, and as for the latter, I had already introduced myself to him on the road from Sokal to Luck. At the Army Group I met a man from the same district when I was with the G-2, Lt. Col. Freytag-Loringhofen, with whom I became friends. Group? visits of officers who had been assigned for that job. document NO-3405, exhibit number 42.
MR. HOCHWALD: Page 57 of the English document book, but Dr. Ratz will quote from page 65 under the heading, "Activity of Teilkommando, Sonderkommando 4-A at Poltawa."
Q (By Dr. Ratz) It is the report of events number 156 of 16 January 1942. There it says about the activity of the Sub-Kommando of SK 4 A in Poltawa: "A major Jewish action took place on 23 November 1941, after the Jewish population had been requested by means of posters to report on the previous day. Altogether 1,538 Jews were shot." Did you have anything to do with this action?
A No. In Poltawa while I was there, a Kommando of Sonderkommando 4B was there, also the advance Kommando Charkow, and a Subkommando of the SK 4 A as well as the remaining Kommando passed through Poltawa. Also a subkommando of Einsatzkommando 5 was there during that time. The Einsatzkommando 4 B had their quarters in the center of the city, while I, with the Army department with which I was, lived outside of Poltawa. The Kommandos that passed through always took up their quarters with Sonderkommando 4 B, and I know about their presence because they had to turn to me if they wanted to have orders to advance or if they wanted supplies from the Army, because the economic and administrative offices of the Army sent them to me as the competent liaison officer.
mentioned in the prosecution documents insofar as your personal responsibility is concerned. Beyond that, further executions are mentioned of which you heard, according to the prosecution documents. Did you take part in these executions in some manner? the AOK 6 or Einsatzgruppe C?
the time when the SK 4 A was under Blobel's command, you did not take part in the executive tasks of the SK 4 A?. training, and only in time got used to the SD reporting. Concerning the first, the Commander of SK 4 A, Blobel, had given me the limits of my work as interpreter. Two possibilities existed here, either to be active as interpreter during interrogations or to assist in making reports, since the mission of seizing documents alone could not take up my entire time of work, in particular at the time when the front was not moving and no new localities were captured. Work as interpreter during interrogations would necessarily have brought me in connection with the executive work. That is why I tried repeatedly to avoid this. I never carried out interrogations. My activity as liaison officer right from the beginning excluded the possibility of executive work. My position in the Kommando as non-member of the RSHA made me appear not suitable for this. BY THE PRESIDENT: interpreter during interrogations? beginning of the assignment I had been intended for work in the reporting service and could withdraw to that field. interpreter? commanding officer assigned you to interpret at an interrogation, how could you refuse to follow his order?
Q Well then, how did you avoid interpreting at interrogations?
ing officer knew you were an interpreter and they needed an interpreter, wouldn't it be the most logical thing for him to assign you as an interpreter at interrogations? I was expert for the department III and later on I was liaison officer.
Q. Well, how did you become an expert in department III? You had not had SD training.
A No, I did not have that, your Honor. I said -
Q Well then, how did you become an expert so quickly? and my knowledge of languages.
Q Well now, we come back to languages again. If you were appointed because of your linguistic accomplishments and your commanding officer needed an interpreter why wouldn't he naturally turn to you who was already known to be a good translator and interpreter? the Commander used these interpreters.
Q Then you were not used as an interpreter?
A I was never used as interpreter by the Commander. I was never used in interrogations as interpreter either. directed your attention, and observe the last item on that page which says: "On 18 October 1941 the Teilkommando of SK 4 A at Lubny took over the evaluations of the NKWD files left behind by the Vor-kommando and the handling of current correspondence." Did you do that work?
Q Do you see the item?
Q Well, why didn't you? You were qualified to make this investigation, this evaluation rather?
A That was not cart of my task. It says here a Subkommando of the SK 4 A, a Teilkommando. I was not in charge of a Teilkommando, a Subkommando, but I was merely liaison officer with the Army Staff. evaluating them. You have told us that.
Q Yes. Well then, why wouldn't you, in October, 1941, be engaged in the evaluation of files taken but your own Kommando?
A No, your Honor, at the time I was liaison officer already. I was with the Army Staff and it would have been quite impossible that the files would have been put at my disposal to work on them there, Evaluation of files by myself when seizing them in Wtek, or Shitomir or Kiev only occurred to that extent that I looked through them, I made a list of them, where it said what the contents of these files were and got then ready to send them to Berlin. I had the mission only to collect documents of basic nature and the question of languages may be cleared up at this point. Russian is the official language in the Ukraine as well, and all documents and decrees throughout the entire Soviet Union which are valid there, were written in Russian.
Q Yes. Well, now the NKWD files would be basic files, wouldn't they? department. until you looked them over and indicated what their contents were? tion in the Soviet Union and I knew where I should look for those matters which concerned me and which had to be of interest to me. as you entered new territory?
Q Yes, all right. Then when you came into Lubny why wouldn't you get these NKWD files? your Honor. with evaluating files because of your knowledge of the Russian language in which these documents were written. Why wouldn't you be charged with responsibility of getting these NKWD files which were very important? with the Army Staff.
Q Weren't you doing these two jobs simultaneously, evaluating files and then also acting as liaison officer? officer and what period you acted in seizing files. Give us the dates.
Q Well, that's from June until August?
Q What date in August?
Q All right. Then what did you do?
Q Liaison between the 6th Army and Kommando 4 A?
Q How long were you engaged in that kind of work? until the end of May 1942.
Q Then what did you do? Hungarian Army.
Q But always with 4-A?
Q And how long did that last, from May 1942 until when?
Q Then what did you do?
Q Always with Kommando 4-A?
Q All right. And how long did that last?
Q Now wait there. You said from December 15, 1942 you were liaison officer with the 8th Hungarian Corps. For how long?
Q For one year? So that takes us up to December 1943.
A No. From October until December 1943 I was liaison officer with the 2nd Army and the 8th Hungarian Corps.
Q Well, now just a moment. You told us that you were liaison officer with the 2nd Hungarian Army from May 1942 until the middle of December 1942. Then from December 15, the middle of December, 1942 you were liaison officer with the 8th Hungarian Corps operating with Einsatzgruppe C. You did that for one year? Now, what followed that?
A No, your Honor, there is a misunderstanding. I was liaison officer for the 8th Hungarian Corps from March 1943 until September 1943. In between I was on leave. Army, from August 10, 1941 until May 1942 there were certain exceptions, certain interruptions?
Q What did you do during these interruptions? Lubny? done by you only between June and August 1 to 10? months?
Q Well, when was that?
Q What year?
Q And how long did you do that? work with the Einsatzkommando and for the 12 to 14 days in Kiev at the end of September 1941 you did not at any time do this work of seizing and evaluating files? in Russia you were used only for about 21/2 months for this very important work of seizing and evaluating files? that was my main work.
Q Proceed, Dr. Ratz. How far is Lubny from Kiev?
this activity, into the Einsatzgruppe, generally, because of your linguistic attainments. Yet, in a period involving about three years, you were used for this work for which you were especially gifted only for 21/2 months. liaison officer with the 6th Army.
Q Yes, I know. You have told us that but we come back to this proposition that you were taken into the Einsatzgruppe activity because you were an interpreter, because you knew the Russian language, because you could read documents in the Russian language, and you could evaluate them. In spite of this qualification, highly vital and important to any military organization, you were used for this work for only 21/2 months? That's what you tell us? BY DR. RATZ:
Q Witness, about the turn of 1941-42 did you go on leave? the middle of March 1942 from my leave.
Q Why did you take this leave? told him about my attempts to be released from my war emergency status. We discussed together in what manner I could be, or rather would be transferred to an assignment in the Wehrmacht and we agreed that I should go on leave while the G-2 settled this matter in the meantime, The plan was that through intermediation of the superior office of G-2 I should be released from the RSHA and I would then be transferred to the regular army unit.
Q Did you go home then?
A Yes. I made reports accordingly and returned to my family awaiting for a reply from G-2.
Q Did your attempts succeed?
A. No. At the end of January I received Information from Colonel Freytag Loringhofen that his suggestion had been rejected by his superior office and he could not help me for the time being.
Q Were you satisfied with this?
A No. I went to the labor office who sent me to the office of the Mayor who had put me on the War emergency status. Here I was told that the war emergency status could only be cancelled by the office who imposed it and only they could release me. I then went to the office of the RSHA in Berlin and asked the department chief competent, Sturmbannfuehrer Trautmann, to release me. I mentioned the emergency and the need in my family, and I said that I wanted to volunteer for the Army. Trautmann listened to me and asked me to come back after two days. After a short discussion in the doorway he talked to me in a very brief manner which could not be misunderstood.
Q One more question to supplement this. You said you went to the Mayor. In which city was this? rescinded? understood and I should not do this in the future.
Q What did you do after that? Agency on the one hand and with the attempt of setting my domestic affairs. This is what I did until I received a telegram that I was to go to Charkow. Immediately, I travelled to Charkow in the beginning of March.
Q Your Honor, I now come to a new sector. This might be a good place for the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: I would think so. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 16 December 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BLUME: Dr. Blume, assistant for Dr. Lummert for Defendant Blume. Your Honor, I would like the defendant Blume to be excused tomorrow morning and tomorrow afternoon as his defense has to be prepared.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Blume will he excused from attendance in Court all day tomorrow, Wednesday.
DR. BLUME: Thank you, Your Honor. BY THE PRESIDENT: which we would like some enlightenment. These documents, enemy documents, would naturally contain information regarding activities against the German forces, activities which would call for executive measures. Would you make a report on these activities which would result in executive measures being taken against the authors of those activities?
A No, Your Honor, I did not report about such matters. The task of seizure of documents as it was assigned to me was the following: The basic and general material which enlightens on the structure and activity of the various Soviet institutions, this has to be seized, and by the first possible way has to be transported to Berlin. All these dispatches either went directly or via, the Einsatzgruppe to Berlin, and I had to deal with this. I had to pack them, either in cases or in reams, and each case or ream had to have a register and a list pertaining to the documents giving their content matter, but these documents did not serve the purpose to combat the enemy locally, but, as far as I know, they served the purpose of elucidating the Reich Government as to the structure and government of the Soviet Union.
individuals who were actively working against the German Armed Forces, what would you do with this list?
A I would have passed it on to Berlin. This was according to my assignment, but I can not remember -
Q Allright, let's suppose that you find in Kiev, you have seized the files, and in these files you find a report on a meeting which took place in a certain building, and in these reports there was an indication that a conspiracy was forming, a conspiracy already had been formed, that explosives were to be brought in, dynamite was to be brought in, and that certain roads were to be mined so that when the German forces traveled over them they would all be killed. This report gives the names of conspirators. Would you send that off to Berlin without doing anything? inform the competent authority immediately. The simplest thing would have been to inform the kommando itself about this state of affairs.
Q And then executive measures would be taken? evaluate them?
A I don't think so, Your Honor, This would have been done be the executive authority or those who dealt with executive activities. These would have to start their work then. Communist Party who according to the Fuehrer Order were to be executed. You find this list of Communist functionaries. What would you do with the list?
A Your Honor, I don't know. Such a case never happened.
Q What would you do with such a list?
because, contrary to the example you mentioned before, there was no acute danger here; but I am not able to answer this exactly, what I would have done in such a case. as resisting the German Armed Forces, what would you do with that list, would you still send that on to Berlin? ins of the list?
Q And you would have done nothing further? have translated it for them? translators who had to interpret it or translate it.
Q You take a list to them. It is drawn up in Russian and you hand it to them. Wouldn't you explain that, "Here is a list of individuals who are dangerous. They are resisting the German Armed Forces. They met at a certain place. They have certain plans." Wouldn't you tell them what the report was about?
Q Now, how many times did you do just such a thing?
A Such matters I did not carry out. As I said, the material seized by myself I regularly sent to Berlin in all the cases which I have mentioned. I think that I also read this in reports - I can't exactly remember that - this is also being confirmed by these reports of the local situation. seizing files, did it never happen that you found in those NKWD files names of individuals who were opposing the German Armed Forces or who were in the category of those listed to be executed under the Fuehrer Order?
Did that never happen once? buildings were always empty because the NKWD had no reason..... enemies of the German Armed Forces?
A That is possible. I do not remember a special case, but it is absolutely possible that that happened. those who were to be in some way made the subject of summary action on the part of the German Armed Forces? some of these seizures, find documents which gave information on persons opposing the German Armed Forces, you said that, didn't you? certain individuals, certain organizations opposed to the occupational forces? were seized by me I sent off to Berlin. opposing the German forces, what did you do with those lists?
A Your Honor, I do not remember any case. I have already said that I never found such lists. have found some documents which called for action, for executive action on the part of the commando or on the part of the Wehrmacht. You said that, didn't you? fore include it? cases where you would find something which called for executive action? what would be the primary condition for an executive measure and what was not. I acted according to my assignment, and personally I saw no reason to go any further than this particular assignment. It was my task to seize documents and to transport them to Berlin, and this is what I did.
Q Now you can getting away from the question. I said, what did you do in those cases where you did find information acting upon which would call for executive action? did not know about such cases. I said that I did not exclude
Q Therefore, you include the possibility? executive action?
sion on your mind, that you can't recall it? thing, but it is that I do not know of any case in which I passed on a list to anybody on the basis of which -Russians, you immediately been to look for papers, is that right? department and leave the others to another department? the time, had to be secured in the interest of the Reich. those which pertained to your department of agriculture, economy, and so forth? activities. I remember one particular case in which later -only documents which you would pick up, those which referred to your department?
Q You would leave the others there? which after I had been there, officials - and by officials I mean members of the Security Police - arrived and organized another supervisory control for their own purpose. glancing at the filing cases, those which contained information of interest to your department? set a proper perspective, and then I decided upon what I would take with me and upon the material which I did not need and which should remain there.
Q And you would look at everything, wouldn't you? at the material which seemed important end of special significance to me. it was of importance to you, wouldn't you? whole material, out with a glance I can establish what I need for my own purposes, I took that material, and at the office I looked at it and made the registers and lists. if a tomato plant was growing in there then you knew that referred to agriculture and you would take those papers, You looked in another file and if there was some indication of economy in the way of a toy train or something, you would like that file? Witness, to reduce it to its very simple element, we indicate to you that it seems very unlikely that someone charged with the grave responsibility of seizing, enemy papers would not take every paper and evaluate every paper end report to his kommando leader. tremendous in Russia, I have already said that from Lutsk itself I sent a whole truckfull of material to Berlin. I had to work day and night on this together with men and officers of the Wehrmacht, and so it was impossible for me to busy myself with material which I regarded as of no consequence for my own purposes. referred to the security of your own comrades and of the armed forces in Russia just because it didn't fall within your department. That is what you are telling us, isn't it?
A This wasn't my task in this particular case.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Ratz.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RATZ:
Q Witness, when did you arrive in Charkov?
Q Who had meanwhile been appointed commander of SK 4-A?
A The commander was Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Weinmann.
Q What was your new assignment in this kommando? liaison officer with the Army and the Army groups.
Q Where were they stationed?
A The Army was in Poltava then in Charkov. The Army group was in Poltava.
Q Did you have any further tasks to deal with? ing with cultural questions. tion in Charkov? my stay in Charkov as I saw that the Russian municipal administration could not cope with feeding the 3 - 400,000 inhabitants and I, knowing the economical structure of the Army, could support them. your own activity? kommando for too long. He had learned that I had not been ill but that I had been seen in Berlin. I described my futile attempt to be released to Weinmann and he, on his part, tried to convince me of the contrary of my attitude. In this discussion I asked for my release, which he refused. Security Police and the SD?
A Yes. Starting from the point that he as a former physician had never thought himself of joing such a service BY THE PRESIDENT: the Teilkommando of SK 4A, how did you answer that question--you said "No", didn't you? davit, "I went with the Sonderkommando to Rutkoschow and from there to Lutsk where I was assigned to a Teilkommando of Sonderkommando IVA. How do you reconcile those two statements? to a subcommando of the SK IVA. With that I did not say that I was in charge of this subcommando. IVA? reading from Document Number 3405? when asked whether I was with the Suncommando. IVA at Lukni, and you said you were never a member of a Teilkommando of IVA a member of the subcommando in Lukni, and to this my answer was in the negative, but yesterday in my direct examination I have stated that I was with the subcommando in Lutsk, and I said so in my affidavit.
Q Very well, I might been mistaken. Proceed. BY DR. RATZ: concerning your appointment in the security police and the SD?