A. About six to seven days.
Q. And when you arrived in Charkow Weinmann was already for several days there, was he not?
A. Yes, he arrived just before me. 3. Where from do you know it vas a short time?
A. I heard that.
Q. Who told you that?
A. A member of the office or he himself told me.
Q. Will you turn to your SS personal file. This is Document Book III-C NO-4771 and I want to quote from page 25 of the English, your Honors. Unfortunately I have nobody here who could show the witness the German. I shall try to do that myself.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have got it.
THE PRESIDENT: He has found it, Mr. Hochwald.
Q. Thank you very much. This is a life history of yours for the SS, written by you. May I assume that this life history is correct?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q. I am especially referring to the paragraph under the heading "page 2" and to the paragraph under the heading "page 3 of original". May I assume that what you have written here in this life history is correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Here it is stated that from 15 December 1938 -oh, no, I am sorry. That you were entrusted with the preparation for an economic reconstruction of the community and you were a member of the Main Commission of the German Embassy at the discussions concerning the Option Contract. That's the Option Contract for the resettlement of Baltic Germans, is that correct?
It was an act that gave the Germans the right to change their homes, to be resettled, is that right? Posen in order to act as deputy of the director of the Advisory Office for Ethnic German Immigrants. That's correct, too?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you act in this capacity?
A. Which ones are you referring to Mr. Prosecutor, the first or the second one?
Q. The second one.
A. The second one is a representation which lasted until the end of December, then it was reorganized. Here representatives no longer existed and I only worked in my own special field.
Q. Well I can assume that you have been with this resettlement activity from the very beginning, up to when? Up to May 1941, is that right?
A. Yes, except for an interruption from the beginning of February until the beginning of May 1945 when the renewed resettlement of Baltic Germans was cause for my returning home.
Q. You said 1945. I can assume May 1941?
A. 1941.
Q. So you are well acquainted with the whole matter are you not as to have been working there a long time?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were these Baltic Germans resettled? What was the place where they were to stay or where they were resettled, as a matter of fact.
A. The fact of the resettlement is indisputed. As I testified in my direct examination, regulations of the Reich Commissar for the strengthening of Germandom existed.
Q. I only wanted to know where they were to be resettled, in which place; in which province?
A. To Danzig and to Posen.
Q. Is that in the Wartegau?
A. Yes.
Q. And these places were populated - - Danzig and the Wartegau? How many Baltic Germans were sent from Latvia to the Wartegau?
A. I estimate about 40,000. There might have been more.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether it was not necessary to deport first people from the Wartegau in order to settle these Baltic Germans in Posen and in Danzig.
A. Yes, that is what happened.
Q. Was that known to them when you were working in this Advisory Agency?
A. At the beginning we did not know about this. It, was said that we would be sent to quarters from where Poles had escaped. Later on I personally learned that Poles had to leave the Wartegau and to go to the Government General.
Q. But you knew as a matter of fact that that was the official policy of the agency in which you worked, did you not?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. It wasn't the official policy of the authority for which I worked.
Q. I possibly can refresh your memory on that a little bit. If your Honors please I am not going to introduce this document just now. It is a document which was admitted in the Race and Settlement case but I would like to read only one of the paragraphs into the record. I shall read it in German as I have no perfect English translation. I will try to read it very slowly.
"Copy -- General Instructions and Directives of the Reich Commissar for the strengthening of Germandom."
"1. The first period of our activity will cover the following matters:
"Deportation of about 55,000 Jews and of the leading anti-German Poles as well as of Polish intellectuals, starting from Danzig and Posen across the border of the German Reich into the district of the Polish Government General. In this action Jews will be sent to the territory to the east of the Vistula River, between the Vistula and the Bug River." you were working in this Advisory Agency?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. This document is a document of the Reich Commissar for the strengthening of Germandom and we outselves were subject to his directives insofar as we forcably had to go to Danzig, West Prussia, and Wartegau. We were not allowed to go to Berlin and Cologne and live there, as you may perhaps assume, I merely want to point out the difference.
Q Witness, I do not ask about your personal resettlement. All that I have been asking you was your activity in the resettlement agency. I know that you were resettled yourself, but you have told the Tribunal at great length that you have been actively working on this resettlement, end I am asking you whether you, having been active with these agencies, were aware at that time that more then half a million Jews were deported from the places where the Baltic Germans, for whom you arranged the immigration there - whether these Jews were deported just for the simple reason to make room for your fellow countrymen who came from Riga to this area? I do not speak about your personal resettlement.
A I did not hear that, Mr. Prosecutor; I did not hear about these restrictions.
Q. How do you explain to the Tribunal that you, having been active quite a long re, should have been completely unaware of this fact? These are not ten people; these are not fifteen people; it is more than half a million Jews and a great number of the Polish intelligentsia. You have been in Posen yourself. You were familiar, as you have told the Tribunal, with the whole affair. How do you explain, that you just did not know?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I said that I heard that our interests to advise the resettlers, the resettlers from the Baltic countries, I said already that only Baltic Germans worked for us....
THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't help you to move the chair if you still keep your head for away from the microphone. It is your head that is to move, not the chair. There, I think that will be better.
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly. BY MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: had to tell them where to go and what to do., so if you told them where to go you must have known that they just went to pieces which had been made free for them by the Polish people, did you not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, there is an error. We did not tell the people where to go, but Himmler and his officers in the Reich Commissariate for the Strengthening of Germanism, who had a large agency in Posen, told them where to go. fellow countrymen, you ever found out they were settled in places where from Poles and Jews had been deported, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe? apartments from where Poles had escaped, and that I heard myself later on that people were deported, I learned that people were deported.
Q When did you learn that?
A Why did you not leave the agency when you heard about that? to help your fellow countrymen resettle in places where other people were deported from, is that what I take from your answer?
A Mr. Prosecutor, this was not up to me, where the people were sent to and how they were housed, but the advisory office merely had to see to it, and this was my field of activity, that their economic claims be founded to such an extent that a recompensation could be made by the Reich at a later time, I would like to say here expressly that at the time we told all our clients that they should not take over any property from other people, and if they could do nothing else they should act as trustees, and the result is that now, as I heard, 85 percent of the property of the resettlers actually can be claimed in a legal manner because they did not take over any property.
know that people forcibly were deported from their homes in order to make room for these settlers?
A No, I already said that they were resettled. In how far this was done forcibly or voluntarily I did not know and don't know enough about it to judge it.
Q You were of the opinion that these people were going voluntarily?
A I don't think so. If I say they were resettled or deported, I mean that something happened here which had been planned, and I myself saw of my own-self how unpleasant it is to leave one's home and, therefore, cannot imagine that they went voluntarily, but I personally don't know anything about forced measures. not so voluntarily so that you knew that they were forced, do you not? You have just explained that to the Tribunal. into the SS by order of Himmler as the entire advisory agency for Baltic Germans was taken over by the Department for the Registration of Ethnic Germans, is that correct?
Q When exactly was that?
Q You were a civilian then, were you not?
Q How was your health at that time?
Q Would you have been fit for military service?
Q When you were taken over by the SS in December, 1939. did you voice any objections against this assignment?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not do this at the time for two reasons. First of all I did not understand the whole business, and secondly I only heard about the effects in February of the following year, 1940, when I was asked to go to Berlin and got my military equipment, Secondly, an objection would have been impossible as this was not only directed against me but against my ethnic group because Himmler would have considered this to be an impudence, and it would have had bad results. But I would like to say again here, as I emphasized during my direct examination, that in February, 1940, I received information that I was a wearer of uniform and, therefore, was not under any obligation. At the time this reassured me, perhaps mistakenly, and in March, 1940, I made an application to the Wehrmacht, and this application was replied to with the statement that I was indispensable.
Q To your reason No. 1, do you want to tell the Tribunal that in December, 1939, you did not know that you became a member of the SS, is that what you want to say?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, in that form, as I heard, it later, I did not know it at that time. national Socialist movement from, I think it was 1936, is that correct? movement from 1936 must have known in December 1939 what the SS was? Isn't it a fair assumption?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the conditions in Germany we did not know much about, and there was no connection with the SS as such, therefore one did not know much about it.
Q Did you know that the SS was a Party organization? were not drafted into the SS by the German State? a No, I was appointed to become an SS man by Himmler. that correct?
A But the command was in the hands of Himmler. At the time who was in charge of the strengthening of Germanism. advisory agency, would you have still become an SS man?
A I don't think so. could you not? a Yes, but I could not know that at the time.
Q That was not my question. You had the choice, did you? a I did not have the choice because I did not apply for this. I did not ask to be assigned; I did not ask to join; I was appointed here. I had no choice. membership in the SS was entirely voluntary. Will you tell the Tribunal whether you were drafted into the SS by the State so that you had no other choice, or whether you had a choice by leaving your position and so would have evaded to become a member of this organization? a Well, if I had known that Himmler would carry out this action, then I would have had to leave my job one day earlier, but since I did not know it I did not leave my job and therefore had no choice. ship of the SS by Himmler, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe? a Later in the summer of 1940 I wanted to volunteer for the Wehrmacht.
know, Witness, not what you did in summer 1940, about that we will speak later. for you to leave this position? SS, is that right?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot say anything else than what I have said before, I did not have this choice insofar as I was appointed that is, I was not asked. If I have a choice, I have to be asked. member of the SS and a member of an organization which belonged to an "S" formation, did you try to leave the SS - did you do that, "Yes" or "No"? request?
Q So you would have had the choice, would you have not? that time I did not realize the full importance of it because it would not have had effect against me but against the resettlers.
Q Why? himself and I have always stood in awe of him. that correct, you stayed there on your own free will?
A Yes. I only made one attempt to go to the Wehrmacht.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, my curiosity was peaked by his last answer that he always had a great respect for Mr. Himmler.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Did you have a great admiration for Himmler - Heinrich Himmler?
Q What did you mean that you had a great respect for him? Your Honor, it was like this, Himmler as Reich Commissar for the Strengthening of Germany practically laid down our manner of life for us. He gave all the regulations and made all the laws, and in 1942 or 1943 he issued a secret order in which he said that the Baltic Germans were politically unreliable and gave certain measures, I believe I have every reason to say that I have a certain amount of respect for Himmler, but what I mean by respect is a certain precaution towards a man who had absolute power.
Q You mean by that a certain fear, don't you?
Q Well, there is a vast difference between a "respect" and a "fear", isn't that right?
A I beg your pardon. Your Honor, I may have expressed myself incorrectly.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY MR. HOCHWALD: that you were prevented from joining the Wehrmacht as you were deferred for your position in this SS agency?
A Yes. That was in March 1940. with the RSHA? is that correct?
Q In which capacity were you drafted for the RSHA? that is what I was told at the time. for this service on the basis of the decree of 15 October 1938? a Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know the details of the regulations, I will have to read again what I told you.
Q A part of the decree is in your counsel's document book. I do not know if Your Honors have the document book before you.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes.
MR. HOCHWALD: It is on the pages 21 to 23. Are you familiar with this decree?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Mr. Prosecutor, may I only add here that I have read them, I have seen them sometime ago, but I am not a lawyer to be able to compare all the paragraphs.
BY MR. HOCHWALD: the last time?
Q When did you see it for the first time? beginning of the year 1940 or during my second leave. did you say? yourself, is that correct? rights you had according to this decree to object to this draft? a I inquired about it and I was told there were no regulations in writing concerning this and that there was no point to object to the war emergency status as I was drafted by the RSHA.
I only read the actual paragraphs of the war emergency status during my leave, when I gathered information about this at the labor office. you had no right to make objections to this draft?
AAt the time I was told, I don't know exactly what the exact expression was, that there was a right to object, and as I have explained during the direct examination, I went to the appropriate office, which was that of the mayor of the city of Posen, and he sent me to the employees department office of the RSHA on behalf of which the war emergency status had been decreed and there Sturmbannfuehrer Trautmann refused to release me from my war emergency status. that, and I quote "This emergency war status had the same effect as a military order, it had to be complied with, whoever refused to comply with this had to expect the same consequences as the one who would have refused to do any war service." Is that what you still maintain? will find out whether you are still of the same opinion when you are reading the decree.
MR. HOCHWALD: Your Honors, I would like to quote from the German official law gazette, volume I of 1938, page 1441 I am sorry I have again to quote in German, "Third Decree for the Securing - -"
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, are you now going to quote from a law - a statute?
MR. HOCHWALD: From the decree on the basis of which the defendant maintains that he had been drafted into it.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not what I am concerned about. I have the greatest admiration for the linguistic ability of our interpreter to expect her to translate extemporaneously a statute. It is really asking a great deal, don't you think so?
MR. HOCHWALD: I think so, Your Honor. Perhaps we can make it easier. I just refer that this is the same decree of 15 October 1938 which partly is in the document book of Dr. Ratz. I would like to read one article of paragraph 1 which is not in this document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, read it slowly then.
MR. HOCHWALD: It is Article 3 of paragraph 1 "Services due on the basis of the Reich Defense Law within the custom's border police."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Hochwald, I think that is asking too much to expect a translation of a document which is phrased in the most technical terms. Why don't you -
MR. HOCHWALD: It is only two sentences, Your Honor, but I will have it tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think so.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I believe the prosecutor is arguing about the results of a refusal to obey this call-up, the draft. I believe that this argumentation here is not at the right place as part of questioning the witness. I will have to comment on this in my argumentation as to whether in the regulations which the prosecutor has talked about penalties are contained, penalties which would justify the witnesses testimony.
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I have only been referring to a decree which was quoted by the witness himself on the stand. I do think I am entirely within my rights to ask him whether another part of the decree which is not in the document book of Dr. Ratz but is a part of the same decree is not in contradiction to what he said on the stand.
He is at liberty to say that it is not in contradiction, but I do think this question is perfectly admissible.
THE PRESIDENT: Let me make it very clear on the record that there is no doubt in my mind that Miss Juelich, the interpreter, is thoroughly capable of translating this statute, but I think it is a heavy burden to put upon her at this hour after the examination which you have given us now for some time, so that the Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 17 December 1947 at 0930 hours) 0930-1630, Justice Michael A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. ROHR: Dr. Rohr, deputizing for Dr. Gawlik for the Defendant Naumann. Naumann be excused from attendance in court tomorrow, Thursday, all day, in order to prepare his document books.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant will be excused from attendance in court all day tomorrow, Thursday.
DR. ROHR: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: You are welcome. Mr. Hochwald.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: May it please the Tribunal, I have tried to secure translations of the parts of the decree which I want to read to the witness but unfortunately I haven't got the translation yet in the courtroom, so if the Tribunal please, I shall proceed with another line of questioning, and as soon as I get the translations I shall come back to the subject.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: 4a from the beginning of the Russian campaign until when?
is that correct?
Q What was your duty in Sonderkommando 4a during the war? a reporter. In my work as interpreter I mainly dealt with documents. Then I became liaison officer and reporter. I would like to interpolate here that, temporarily, I was liaison officer for Einsatzgruppe C. were informed by Blobel about your tasks?
Q What exactly did Blobel tell you? deal with the evaluation of documents and to make reports and also observations of all the Ukrainian questions. He also told me that I did not have those qualifications which the other officers had before joining the kommando and I would not be assigned like the other officers.
Q He did not appoint your chief interpreter, did he?
A No. He merely told me that I was to take care of the other interpreters and supervise them, but this never happened.
Q Blobel has not appointed your interpreter at all? seizing and evaluating of documents on one hand, and reports on the other hand. kommando as such, about the Fuehrer Befehl?
He just talked about the Fuehrer Befehl in general, which he announced. that all Jews and undesirables were to be killed in accordance with the Fuehrerbefehl?
Q What did you think would happen to the Jews? known, that Security Police tasks would be carried out ruthlessly against Communist functionaries, and he said on that occasion that it was expressed in this Fuehrer Order that Jews were to be considered the bearers of Bolshevism. Therefore, at the time when I heard this, I tried to distanciate myself, but I never realized the consequences of this order, in particular as it was said at the time that this was done for the sake of security of the troop. information of Blobel's, that there was a ruthless - they were to take ruthless measures against the Communists and that the Jews were to be considered the bearers of Communism. You must have understood something by that. What did you think would happen on the basis of this order? particular. At the moment I realized the ruthlessness and the unambiguousness not fully, although it struck me. I had received the information in Schmiedeberg that it would be a war assignment, that is a military assignment, and police tasks were also mentioned here.
Q I do not think that you answered my question. I asked you, what did you presume would happen now on the basis of these orders to the people named? In this order to the Jews and to the Communists; did you think that they were to be arrested or did you think that they were to be killed, or did you think that they were to be left alone, or what did you think?
Somebody gives me such an order, which certainly is an unusual one. I must have some impression what the order means. That is my question, what did you think was to happen to these people? but I fully realized that when the expression "ruthless" was used, that they would not treat them sparingly; they would arrest them all, but not eliminate them. At the time I did not quite realize its full extent. Blobel what this order means, as you objected against the order and did not want to have anything to do with it? Before I can object to something, I must know what I am objecting to. Why didn't you ask Blobel what it is all about?
A I don't know Mr. Prosecutor, I don't want to give you a reply now which I might have constructed. All I know is that I did not want to have anything to do with police tasks, because I saw before myself an activity which merely contained the seizing of these elements and I did not like this kind of work. in which Hitler provided for the killing of all Jews, Communists, gypsies, and undesirables?
Q When did you learn first about this order? Lublin to Lutsk.
Q And when was that?
