QWho told, you about this order?
AThat must have been one of the officers in the kommando who said that Jeckeln, who also lived in the Army billet, that he had expressed this.
QAnd when you heard the expression "the Jews" you did not know that they were all Jews?
ANo.
QIsn't that clear if somebody says "the Jews", without making any differentiation, that it must mean all Jews? If somebody says, "the Jews are to be killed," what does that mean? Does it mean that only a part of the Jews are to be killed, or all Jews are to be killed?
AMr. Prosecutor, at the time I did not think of that. It did not occur to me that all Jews would include women and children.
QSo you were then of the opinion that all male Jews were to be shot, is that correct?
AWell, I must think about this carefully, Yes, it would only concern the men.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Hochwald, it isn't clear now whether he did or did not protest to Blobel. We were of the impression yesterday he said he did protest to Blobel. Now, I don't know.
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I just wanted to -
THE PRESIDENT:Yes. Q (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) What did you tell to Blobel in Sokal after he had announced this order about the ruthless measures against the Communists and Jews, what did you tell him?
AI told him that I did not want to have anything to do with these tasks.
QWhy did you want to evade this task?
ABecause I did not want to participate in the persecution of people, no matter what people they were, because I did not want to have anything to do with the police tasks connected with it - because it said ruthless Security Police procedure would be required.
QBut you wanted to stay in the East; you did not want to be released from your assignment with the Sonderkommando?
AMr. Prosecutor, at that moment I did not yet realize this and only did ten days later.
QLet's go a little further. You have told us that in July, in Lutsk, you learned that all male Jews were to be killed, When did you learn that all Jews, male, female and children, were to be killed?
AI did not hear that. I realized this in practice.
QWhen did you realize this?
AIn Kiev.
QAt what time was that, Witness?
AThat was at the end of September, the beginning of October, 1941.
QIt took you a quarter of a year, in the unit where at that time approximately forty to fifty thousand people already had been killed, to find out that also women and children were killed by this unit in which you were one of the highest ranking officers, is that what you want the tribunal to believe?
AWell, I cannot say anything else, Mr. Prosecutor. It was like that.
QYou told me a few minutes ago that you never were chief interpreter of Sonderkommando 4a. Do you remember having made a statement in your affidavit to the effect that you were actually chief interpreter of Sonderkommando 4a? I am referring to Document Book III-C, -Page 20.
This is NO-4438, Prosecution's Exhibit 132, That is the last sentence of the first paragraph, your Honors. "I held the position of chief interpreter with the task of screening documents which were seized during the activities in individual towns and compiling those documents in cooperation with the counter-intelligence, for evaluation in Berlin." Is that your statement, Mr. Radetzky?
AYes. May I say something about this?
QCertainly.
AWhen working on my direct examination, when preparing my direct examination, at the suggestion of my defense counsel I talked about this question, and I said that I don't want to talk about it at all because I consider it of no importance. This is not an expression by me, but this expression originated in an interrogation which CIC carried out. They said "Who was the senior interpreter, or the interpreter who held the highest rank?" and we could not quite find a title which would be the simplest to express this, because I repeatedly had difficulties in explaining my rank, and, therefore, the expression, chief interpreter, was started then, and, therefore, it was put into this affidavit. I even believe, but I am not certain, that Mr. Wartenberg first brought up this expression again, perhaps based on a former interrogation.
QDo you remember having been interrogated by Mr. Wartenberg on this subject?
AYes.
QDo you remember whether you told him that you were chief interpreter?
AIt is possible. I do not remember the entire interrogation.
QLet us go now a little bit further into this affidavit. In the same sentence it is said that you worked in cooperation with the counter-intelligence. Was that correct?
AYes.
QYou have given, in direct examination, the subject of your reports and of your tasks by saying, and I quote, "There were questions of economical nature, cultural matters, education, theater, religion, etc." Will you tell the Tribunal in what the counter-intelligence would have to collaborate with you on these things?
AThe counter-intelligence did not cooperate with me on those subjects.
QWill you tell the Tribunal on which matters the counter-intelligence collaborated with you?
AThen seizing the documents, we repeatedly collaborated with the counter-intelligence because they were looking for their military documents, and I chose those documents which interested me, and I thought of Lutsk in particular here, where we looked through the material together and the counter-intelligence took that part of the documents important for them.
QI am still unable to find out what collaboration existed. Will you tell the Tribunal what your actual collaboration with the counter-intelligence was, was it in the way that you have been carrying out interrogations and investigations for the counter-intelligence, wasn't that your task?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, that was not my task.
QSo you have only been looking into the theaters. Can you tell the Tribunal how many theaters there were at that time in the area where you were active?
AMr. Prosecutor, may I come back to the document? It says here, to screen the documents and in collaboration with the counter-intelligence to make reports for Berlin.
QI asked you what was the collaboration and you said there was no collaboration. In your affidavit you state there was a collaboration. I have been trying to find out how you reconcile your statement on direct examination with your statement in the affidavit, and I have quoted your statement in direct examination where you say that you were that your tasks were only cultural matters, theaters, religion, etc., and I asked you, and I ask you again - possibly you can give an information now - how was this collaboration with the counter-intelligence carried out in these matters?
AYou asked me about my activity in reporting, what kind of cooperation existed there with the counter-intelligence, and I said no to that question. Concerning the screening of documents I did cooperate with the counter-intelligence in the sense as expressed in the affidavit.
QDid you then translate and evaluate documents for the counterintelligence?
ANo.
QWill you then tell the Tribunal what kind of collaboration other than the evaluation of these documents existed between the Abwehr and you?
AThis seizing of documents was done by both of us together and the screening of documents was done by us together, that is, each one took what interested him, that was the collaboration with the counter-intelligence.
QWitness, you have just explained to the Tribunal that there was no collaboration, that everyone took his part, you did not collaborate, is that correct?
ABut we did work together.
QYou want to tell then the Tribunal that if two people are in one room one takes the documents, from one file cabinet, and the other takes the documents from the other file cabinet, one does not know what the other does, but they are only collaborating for the simple reason that they are in the same room, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
ANo, just the opposite. Everybody seizes documents and everybody puts them at the disposal of the other, that is, if they had documents which might interest me, they gave them to me, and if I had documents which interested them, I gave them to the counterintelligence; the military documents went to the counter-intelligence.
QWitness, isn't it patently clear that if these documents were of interest to the counter-intelligence, you had to evaluate them first?
AYes that is not difficult.
QYou have further told the Tribunal that in the beginning of August you changed jobs, you ceased to be an interpreter and became a liaison officer to the army, is that right?
AYes.
QDoes that mean that you completely abandoned the job of interpreter--highest ranking interpreter, and carried out only the liaison job?
ANo. I continued to make reports.
QYou stayed an interpreter then, did you not?
AYes I was interpreter and Expert 3.
QYou were in charge of Office 3?
AI assisted in Office 3, that is Department 3.
QWho was leader in 3?
AIn the Einsatzgruppe, that was the Sturmbannfuehrer Hennicke, and for the commando the responsible man was Hauptsturmfuehrer Kalson. Kalson himself hardly worked on this because he in practice did not have time.
QHow many interpreters were with Sonderkommando 4A?
AThere were three at first when the commando went to Russia, and in time there were 10 to 12. Those were interpreters which had been gotten in the country.
QBut how many were there who were German officers?
AThere were the interpreter, Mueller and muself, and a third interpreter who was not an officer but had the rank of an NCO.
QWhat was the rank of Mueller?
AMueller was obersturmfuehrer.
QAnd you?
AI was hauptsturmfuehrer.
QYou were the higher officer, weren't you?
AYes, the higher ranking officer.
QHow many executions were carried out by Sonderkommando 4A in the time when you were iwth this commando?
AI cannot answer that, Mr. Prosecutor, because I don't know all about it.
QYou should have. Witness, you have told the Tribunal yesterday that when you were liaison officer with AOK 6 from August 1941 on you reported these executions to the army authorities, therefore, you should know how many executions were carried out.
AI don't think so. Mr. Prosecutor, that I said that.
QI do think that you are mistaken. I do think that when the Tribunal questioned you, you admitted that you had reported killings to the army authorities. You even have said that in your economical reports you deplored these things, don't you remember?
AYes, I do remember that, Mr. Prosecutor, but I did not mean executions. What I was trying to refer to, as I said yesterday, was the economic potential because in my opinion this was the only form at all to discuss that question.
QYou have not answered yet my first question, how many executions were carried out by Sonderkommando 4A when you were with this commando.
AMr. Prosecutor, I answered to you to that question. I said I don't know because I cannot overlook this.
QDo you have an approximate estimate?
ANo.
QYou were liaison officer with the army, were you not?
AYes.
QYour chief, Blobel, had testified here that all executions which were carried out by Sonderkommando 4A were ordered by AOK 6 or respectively by the chief of AOK 6, Field Marshal Reichenau. Did you hand down these orders for executions to Sonderkommando 4A, Witness?
ANo. I said so already during the direct examination. The department to which I was attached did not have any such orders massed through them. I also said that Blobel personally often negotiated with Reichenau and I also said that in my opinion, not the army, what I mean to say is that it was not the operational department, which looked after the carrying out of these operations, but there were the army commanders in the various territories, that is, the division commanders who induced this or caused this because the sub commander on his own could not carry out or cause an collective measure to be carried out.
He was not able to do this.
QYou did not knew what was going on in Sonderkommando 4A in connection with orders issued by the army, and you have never seen reports about it-is that correct, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
AI cannot say that, I never saw report?. I can only say that it was not my task, it was not customary to inform the army through these channels about executions which had been carried out or to receive orders for executions through these channels.
QBlobel has testified many times that he was not able to reach the Einsatzgruppe directly, that the reports from the subcommandos of 4A and from 4A itself went through the liaison officer to the army headquarters and to the Einsatzgruppe C. You were the liaison officer, were you not?
AYes. I was liaison officer. It is possible that mail from the subcommandos passed through, I recall top secret matters or secret commando matters which passed through in that manner, but these were not informations meant for me, this was information which was sent to these officers, but utilizing these channels.
QHow many reports did you receive here, Herr Radetzky?
AI cannot say. I cannot recall.
QCan you then tell the Tribunal how many executions you can remember from these reports?
AI cannot say this either.
QYou refuse to answer?
ANo. but I may be mistaken, and I do not want to give a false reply.
QYou have no estimate?
ANo.
QSo these numbers of executions which went into the many thousands were were so much a matter of course for you in 1941 and 1942 that you have no recollection about them?
Is that right?
ANo Mr. Prosecutor, on the contrary, they were not a matter of course at all, and I think I explained this during my direct examination, what my attitude was.
QYou can easily prove that by telling the Tribunal the number. If you were so much distressed about the things, you certainly must have a very good memory about these facts.
AI cannot name a figure of executions carried out.
QWho handed the reports of Sonderkommando 4A and of the subcommandos to the army authorities?
AThese reports partly were given by the commando command, itself and sometimes from the subcommandos.
QYou had nothing to do with that?
AAs far as I can recollect, I made reports upon request, I believe only in one case.
Q.- In all the time you were with the liaison with the army, you gave only one report to the army authorities, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
A.- No, Mr. Prosecutor, Please differentiate here between what I said yesterday, the so-called situation report. The situation report was made in the commando and did not contain any details.
Q.- I asked the defendant Blobel several times whether the subcommandos and Sonderkommando 4A reported about executions to the army authorities, and he answered by saying, "Of course," This is on page 1692 of the record, Your Honor, Will you tell the Tribunal that you, having been the liaison officer to the same army have not seen these reports about the executions?
A.- No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not see them because they were sent through different channels. If the subcommando was attached to some division at the front, they handed these matters immediately to the division of the army and not through me.
Q.- So the only activity you had as liaison officer was to get fuel and other supplies, of course, with the exception of ammunition, for Sonderkommando 4A, is that correct?
A.- No, That was not the only activity, but there were a number of other activities which I mentioned yesterday already, among them the handing on of reports on the military situation and also the reporting, Q.- Why were you not active as a commander of a subcommando or advance commando?
A.- Because that was not my task.
Q.- Why not?
A.- Because I did not have the required qualification.
Q.- What kind of military training did you have?
A.- Military training was done in the Latvian army where I was released as a NCO.
Q.- Did you learn there higher strategy?
A.- No.
Q.- Will you tell then the Tribunal how it was possible for you, without any military preparation, to be a liaison officer to the army -you were not fit for both services, you were not fit for the police service, you were not fit for liaison service?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, in order to act as a liaison officer one did not need much military knowledge. I would like to say one had to find one's way about.
Q.- You have said that you had to contact the G-2 for the situation map in order to make your situation reports. You have stressed the point here again that you had to make situation reports, for this there was a certain knowledge necessary, was it not?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Coming back to the reports, did you learn how many people were killed in Kiev?
A.- Yes. I learned about this. At the time reports were issued and sent out where the figure named here was mentioned. It was doubted at the time or questioned. I heard more about this later on, why it was questioned.
Q.- Will you be a little more specific, did you see the army report on this number, or did you see the report of Einsatzgruppe C on this number on this 33,000?
A.- The report from Einsatzgruppe C, I saw here in the reports of events; the report from Einsatzgruppe C sent to Berlin, I did not see. In Kiev I saw a report dictatec by Blobel. As far as I know, it was sent to the Einsatzgruppe and also to army agencies.
Q.- And how is it that you did just see this one report and all other reports you do not remember and did not see?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, in that time when I was in Kiev I had been taken out of my work as liaison officer in order to go to Kiev, in order to seize documents and then to go back to the army.
I explained yesterday what I did in Kiev and how long this took me.
Q.- Were you at the 29th and 30th of September 1941 in Kiev?
A.- I cannot say that exactly.
Q.- How many executions either in Kiev or somewhere else did you witness?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, I never witnessed any executions.
Q.- Never?
A.- No.
Q.- Mr. Radetzky, there is overwhelming evidence that 60,000 people were killed in a very short time by Sonderkommando 4A, by a commando which has all in all seven officers. The second highest ranking officer was you, and you have never witnessed one of these executions, is that what you want to tell the Tribunal?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, may I mention here that I wasn't the second highest officer, but according to ranks there was a higher ranking officer than myself apart from the commander, and as far as police or as far as position in the police or the civil service is concerned, several officers were superior to me.
Q.- There was, with the exception of Blobel, nobody in the commando with a higher rank than you?
A.- Well, the senior officer in the commandos was a Hauptsturmfuehrer Kelson.
Q.- What was your rank?
A.- My rank was also Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q.- Yes. So, will you go back now to my original question, how do you explain to the Tribunal that in spite of the fact that in a few months approximately 60,000 people were killed by a unit which was quite small, possibly not as small as Mr. Blobel now wants us to believe, but quite small, only seven officers. How can you explain to the Tribunal that you have never witnessed one of these executions?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, already yesterday I expressed that I tried again and again to be released or rather to keep away from that work and I had no reason to try and do this.
Q.- Did you never act as an interpreter when the victims were read the sentence before execution?
A.- No.
Q.- Did you ever supervise other interpreters, for instance, the Ukranian interpreters, the indigenous personnel which you hired in Russia itself?
A.- Supervised - No. Originally I had been given this mission, but Q.- No, I was now speaking now about executions you never looked into the matter how these Ukrainians acted before or during an execution in order to supervise these interpreters?
A.- No.
Q.- The defendant, Blobel has testified here at great length, and you certainly will remember that all people who were killed by Sonderkommando 4A were duly interrogated, the case was investigated, and when they were found guilty of a crime against the German forces, were legally condemned and executed, Who carried out the interrogations of these people?
A.- The interrogators who were officials from the army.
Q.- Did they speak Russian and Ukranian?
A.- No. We had interpreters at our disposal;
Q.- And you never acted in this capacity?
A.- No, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.- There were only two German officers, interrogators in this unit. If the testimony of Blobel is to be believed, they must have carried out approximately 150,000 or 200,000 interrogations during 6 months, and you want to tell the Tribunal that you never had anything to do with this ac tivity, is that correct?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, I described to you what kind of tasks I had and it wasn't my task to interpret during interrogations.
Q.- So you don't know anything about the activities of the interpreters with the Sonderkommando 4A, that was not your task?
A.- No. I only know that the other interpreters were always present during interrogations. They were interpreters who had been recruited during the advance.
Q.- About the Jewish question, you have testified that everything which was in connection with this question, especially also executions, was only the task of the Leader 4, is that right?
A.- No. I don't think that I said that. I said that it was the task of the Chief 4 of the Einsatzgruppe -
Q.- And whose task was that in Sonderkommando 4A?
A.- In Sonderkommando 4A it was the task of the executive officials who mostly in practice carried out these tasks.
Q.- Will you tell the Tribunal the names of those officers?
A.- Officers from the security police who were active in the commando.
Q.- Will you tell the Tribunal the names of these people, please?
A.- Yes. There was Jantzen, Hanns, whether Funck took part, I don't know, he tried to get away from the commando.
Q.- Do you remember having been interrogated by Mr. Wartenberg on this subject?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you remember what you told Mr. Wartenberg about that, did you tell these three names, or did you tell another name?
A.- I don't know exactly how this discussion went. I said at the time that I personally gained the impression that Blobel himself had the supervision over this sphere of work.
QDid you not further tell Mr. Wartenberg, I mean, that Blobel was doing practically nothing else but that; that he was only concerned with executions and with nothing else? Did you tell that to Mr. Wartenberg?
AI cannot recall, Mr. Prosecutor, but I hardly think so. I would have to correct this now, if I said so at the time, since Blobel probably had to do a number of other tasks as well. I only know that the so-called secret box - that was a box which was taken along throughout the entire war with all secret orders and all dates and was always in Blobel's room, and Blobel handled those matters or directed them.
QSo you change your testimony then and say that Blobel was in charge of the executions of Einsatzkommando 4A, is that correct?
AMr. Prosecutor, I would only like to change it insofar as I said that Blobel exclusively and alone was active on this.
QBut he was primarily active in these executions, is that correct?
AI assume so, because he was the commander of the unit.
QHow many interpreters were with the advance Kommando in Lucsk at the end of June, 1941?
AI think two. I am not quite sure.
QWho was the second one? You were one. Who was the second one?
AThe second one must have been the NCO who was active as interpreter in the kommando.
QWill you the Tribunal the name of this man?
AMaterna.
QI would like to turn to Document Book II-A, page 81, your Honors, page 84 of the German. This is Document 2938, Prosecution Exhibit 44. I am quoting from the top of page 81, under the heading "Page 13 of the original, continued." There it is said that 300 Jews and 20 looters who had been arrested were shot on the 30th of June. Who interrogated these people?
AI do not know, Mr. Prosecutor.
QYou were in Lucsk, were you not?
AYes.
QYou do not know that?
ANo, I don't know that?
QWill you tell the Tribunal how big the advance kommando of Sonderkommando 4A was which was in Lucsk by then?
AThose were about 20.
QNevertheless you do not know anything about these things?
AMr. Prosecutor, I already said yesterday that Jantzen, who was commissioned to deal with the executive tasks said that the town commander ordered a reprisal action, but I cannot say whether and when and in what manner this was carried out.
QWhat was the rank of Jantzen?
AJantzen was an Obersturmfuehrer.
QYou were a Hauptsturmfuehrer?
AYes.
QWho had the higher rank?
AI had the higher rank.
QAbout the reprisals, you have just been speaking about, there is another entry in the report. That's the next paragraph and that says that 1,160 Jews were shot, but these 300 and the 20 looters had obviously nothing to do with the reprisal measure. Were they killed without investigation?
AMr. Prosecutor, I don't know. I described yesterday what I thought I could do about the order issued by Reichenau according to which in effect an equal number of persons in the Ukrainian intelligentsia were to be killed, and I know that Jeckel and his deputy, Sturmbannfuehrer Meyer at the time insisted that this order would be carried out.
QWould you tell the Tribunal when these members of the Ukraine intelligentsia were killed? Was that before the Germans came to Lucsk?
AYes, that was before the Germans came to Lucsk.
QAm I correct in assuming that these members of the Ukrainian intelligentsia were Soviet citizens?
AI don't know what their status was, their legal status. The territory concerned was occupied by the Soviets after the Polish campaign and I cannot say whether therefore they became legal Soviet citizens or whether they were Polish citizens.
QYou should know, Witness. You have given us a very interesting lecture about the Ukraine yesterday. You should know that, but, anyhow, they were either Polish or Soviet citizens, is that correct?
AYes.
QCan you tell the Tribunal whether these 1160 Jews were Polish or Soviet citizens?
AYes, I assume that they were Polish or Soviet citizens.
QSo why would the German Wehrmacht then be interested in carrying out a reprisal for the killing of Poles or Soviet citizens on Polish or Soviet citizens? Will you tell that to the Tribunal? What kind of reprisal would that be?
AI cannot pass a judgment on this order, for, as I learned at the time, the Commander in Chief of the Army gave it and carried it out.
QDo you know if, that, if what you say is true, it would be possible that the father was killed in reprisal for the killing of the son or the son in reprisal for the killing of the father? Do you understand that, Mr. Radetzky? Do you call that a reprisal?
ANo, I did not quite get the question.
QAll right. The victims and the people on whom the reprisal was carried out were both citizens of the same country. The reprisal was carried out for an act which happened before the German forces came in. As it was a reprisal, it was carried out without investigation. Is it not possible that the father would have been killed by the Russians and the son in reprisal of these killings, by the Germans, is that right, and you call that a reprisal, Mr. Radetsky? Do you understand what I mean?
AMr. Prosecutor, I did not say that I called this a reprisal. I merely said that the order at the time was made known as a reprisal measure. My personal attitude I described yesterday and I have nothing to add.
QDid you never think about it that this could never have been a reprisal?
AI cannot pass a judgment and I could not do this at the time on which measures the German army command considered necessary in the Eastern campaign. I personally tried to object to this manner and I think that I expressed my view within the narrow scope which I had at my disposal.
QThe third paragraph of this same document says that 50 Polish agents and spies were liquidated. Can you tell the Tribunal how it was found out that these 50 persons were agents and spies?
AMr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you anything about that. I had nothing to do with the execution tasks.
QNo one told you anything about it? A. No.
QNobody ever requested your services as an interpreter?
ANo.
QMay I assume that as these Polish people were agents and spies they may have had in their possession papers which were of interest for the military authorities?
AI don't know that, Mr. Prosecutor.
QYou have never seen such documents? You have never evaluated such documents in writing your reports about the theatres in Luck?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not make any report about the theatres in Lutsk.
QI have only quoted your statement in the direct examination.
AIn the direct examination I never said that.
QAre you sure, Mr. Radetsky that you did not say that?
AThat I made reports?
QYou made reports about the theatre?
AThat I made reports about cultural questions, including threatres, yes, I said that.
QGood. In another document, in Document Bock II-A, your Honors, it is on page 34 of the English, I do not know the German page, Document NO-2940, Prosecution Exhibit 35, it says this in the middle of the page under the heading, "Einsatzkommando 4A, Location. Luck." "Operating also always with the forward units of the advancing troops in Lutsk region. 2,000 executions as counter measures for the assassination of the Ukrainians. Material seized. In Brody between 50 and 60 safes with GPU material seized." You know about these 2,000 killed, do you? These are the same as mentioned in the other report.
AMr. Prosecutor I knew that a large scale execution was carried out in Luck, yes.
QDo you remember a number from your own recollection?
A 1,500 were mentioned in all.
QWhat do you know about the safes with the GPU material in Brody?
AI know nothing about that. I was never in Brody.
QDo you remember that the defendant Blobel has testified here at great length that you were in charge of a safe blasting unit? Was he mistaken in this respect?
AI was only active in Lutsk, Mr. Prosecutor, not in Brody.