Q You had been in Lutsk, hadn't you? occurred in Lutsk?
Q Yes, and you weren't sufficiently interested to learn whether these executions had occurred during the time you were in Lutsk? right to read them. An officer took them away from me saying that this was no concern of mine. prisoners and witnesses?
A I beg your pardon. I did not quite get the question. of prisoners and witnesses?
Q Did von Radetzky ever question prisoners and witnesses? says that the Orderly Room joined the interrogation room and you had the possibility to observe that prisoners and witnesses were being brought in continuously.
A Yes, that was in Shitomir. In Shitomir the interrogation rooms were only separated from the orderly room by a hallway.
Q Did von Radetzky question witnesses and prisoners there?
A No, I know nothing about that. There were interrogating officers particularly for that.
Q Did von Radetzky ever question prisoners and witnesses?
Q You wrote reports for von Radetzky, didn't you?
Q What did these reports consist of previously?
Q Was any reference made to the enemy at all? people and about the industrial and agricultural potential of that country.
Q Any reference made to the fact that Jews were being executed? Ukrainians or Russians.
Q. So you tell us that his reports which you wrote up described agricultural conditions and the mental attitude of the people?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the reports mention too discussions of the fact that people were going to the theater, enjoying themselves in the theater?
A. I cannot give you any details about that any more.
Q. Were the theaters in operation during that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have anything in the reports about the theaters?
A. Yes, I think it was mentioned some time that we took care of Ukrainian cultural matters that the theaters were open again for the indigenous population.
Q. Were you in Charkov?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you there at the time that the people were starving?
A. Yes, I know that during that time --
Q. Yes, and were the theatres operating while 300,000 people were starving?
A. Whether the theatres were open in Charkov for the indigenous people I do not know.
Q. You mean the theatres which were operated for the soldiers for the German Army only, is that what you have been talking about?
A. In Charkov now and then performances for the occupation troops were given, but they were limited most of the time I was in Charkov.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment -- red light.
A. (Continued) As far as I know during my time in Charkow the front was so near that we were always prepared for alarms and therefore very few performances were even given for the occupation forces.
Q. Well, generally, you were in a war zone, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't want to tell us that theatres were operating for the civilian population in this war zone?
A. This concerns only the time in Shitomir in 1941 and the theatres had already been opened for the civilian population.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed Dr. Ratz. Well, let's have our recess now.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, I shall come back once more to the remark in your affidavit that in Rowno you saw a package of 20 files and records about interrogations from which you gathered that in Luck and Sokal people were executed. You said that you had just glanced at the reports. Could you, when looking at them superficially, determine whether the reports and records were made out by Radetsky?
A. No, I could not see the signatures at that moment.
Q. Could you see from the handwriting or anything else that Radetsky had participated in making out these reports?
A. No I could not. They had been typed and only because I got to see them accidentally I just glanced at them and I saw from their contents that executions had taken place.
Q. I now come back to Luck in point of time. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you say that you glanced at these reports very casually and you couldn't even tell the dates of the executions. How can you tell whether Radetsky had made the reports or not?
A. I said that I could not decipher whether Radetsky had handled these matters or not.
Q. Very well, I misunderstood you. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. You said that in Luck the Main Kommando arrived and that you had continued with the job of seizing documents. How long did you take and did you proceed afterwards?
A. The work on the documents took until the Kommando was ordered to move on to Rowno.
Q. Then a new Advance Kommando was formed and sent to Rowno?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Radetsky in this new Advance Kommando?
A. I can no longer say that today but it is possible.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Q. But you yourself were with this Advance Kommando?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did this Advance Kommando do in Rowno?
A. This Advance Kommando in Rowno had the same job as the one in Luck, namely, to set up quarters and to safeguard documents.
Q. What else happened in Rowno?
A. After several days after the Main Kommando had arrived, or a short time before it arrived in Rowno, another Advance Kommando was sent to Shitomir.
Q. Was Radetsky with the Advance Kommando to Shitomir?
A. I cannot say exactly because I was not with this Kommando.
Q. Where were you?
A. I continued to stay in Rowno until the Main Kommando proceeded to Shitomir.
Q. When you arrived in Shitomir with the Main Kommando did you then see Radetsky?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what did Radetsky do in Shitomir?
A. In my opinion the main task of Radetsky in Shitomir was to make out reports about agriculture and to make out cultural reports.
Q. Did you yourself participate in making out these reports?
A. Yes.
Q. In what form?
A. Herr von Radetsky often in the late afternoons and in the evening dictated these reports to me and I typed them up.
Q. Do you know what Radetsky did in the mornings and in the afternoons?
A. Yes, to the occasional question where Herr Radetsky got the material for these extensive reports he answered me that he got these through discussions with indigenous authorities.
Q. Did the writing of the reports in Shitomir take up the full time of Radetsky or didn't it?
A. In my opinion it could have taken up all of Radetsky's time because these reports were very extensive so that I suppose that the getting of the material for them took up a lot of time.
Q. How long did this activity in Shitomir last?
A. My activity for Herr von Radetsky lasted for about three weeks in Shitomir.
Q. And what happened after those three weeks?
A. After those three weeks I lost track of Herr von Radetsky.
Q. Do you know where he went?
A. As I have already mentioned I heard that Herr von Radetsky became liaison officer to the Army Headquarters.
Q. When did that happen according to your recollection?
A. That must have been at the end of July or the beginning of August 1941.
Q. Witness, according to the documents submitted by the Prosecution executions also took place in Shitomir, executions of Jews, saboteurs, and political functionaries. Do you know whether Radetsky had participated in such executions in Shitomir?
A. I know nothing about it.
Q. Since you collaborated closely together with Radetsky in Shitomir wouldn't you have had to know if Radetsky had participated in this?
A. In my opinion in these three weeks during which I wrote reports for Herr von Radetsky I would have had to notice, or perhaps, Herr von Radetsky would have said something about the fact that he had participated in such matters.
Q. Did you see Herr von Radetsky later on?
A. After I lost track of Herr von Radetsky in Shitomir I only saw him once more, that was in March 1942 in Charkow.
Q. What did Herr von Radetsky do at that time?
A. I don't know. For some reason Herr von Radetsky came into the orderly room and said "hello" to me and asked me if I was still with the Kommando.
Q. You were then in the orderly room?
A. Yes.
Q. Would it have had to come to your knowledge and did it come to your knowledge if Herr von Radetsky had been active as the commander of Teilkommando or deputy of Blobel?
A. May I ask at what time?
Q. This is the entire period during which you were active in the orderly room of Special Kommando 4a.
A. As I have already mentioned during the entire activity with Special Kommando 4a no deputy for the commander was ever introduced, at least not in my presence. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Dr. Ratz, you have asked him whether he could have known whether von Radetsky had ever deputized for the commander, the commanding officer, and he answers that he knows there was no deputy. He told us that for a period of a year or so he did not see von Radetsky. How does he know what von Radetsky was doing when he wasn't within his sight?
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I asked this question because Radetsky was still a member of Special Kommando 4a and even if Radesky was not present at that place he still belonged to Special Kommando 4a so that the men in the orderly room would have to know where the officer von Radetsky is, or what he was doing.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What was your business in the orderly room, witness?
A. In Charkow I handled the mail.
Q. Well, you told us about Charkow. Generally what was your job in the orderly room? What did you do?
A. I took care of the letters, registered incoming mail and took care of the mail.
Q. That was the extent of your activities.
A. Yes.
Q. Who was the commanding officer?
A. The Kommando leader of the Main Kommando was Blobel.
Q. Did you have daily conferences with Blobel?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you what he was going to do and what he had done?
A. No.
Q. Did you know of the executions which were being performed by the Kommando?
A. No, outside of those already mentioned of which I got knowledge through the records which - found in Rowno by accident.
Q. So it was only by this sheer accident that you learned about two executions?
A. Yes.
Q. You know that there were many other executions, don't you?
A. Of mass executions I heard nothing during my activity.
Q. But you can assume that this Kommando performed many other executions can't you?
A. That there were many I cannot suppose but I assume that just as in Sokal and Luck there were executions in other parts, too.
Q. But you did not have direct knowledge of them yourself?
A. No.
Q. Well, then how do you presume to tell the Tribunal whether von Radetsky had charge of any sub-Kommando out in the field? You didn't see him? You had no control over reports which he rendered. You had no immediate familiar contact with the Kommando leader. How do you now presume to tell the Tribunal that you know that von Radetsky at no time was the leader of a sub-Kommando? How do you support that statement?
A. I have stated that Captain von Radetsky in as far as I know was never a commanding officer of a Teilkommando and I would like to support this by saying that I heard that from August 1941 on he was liaison officer to the Army Headquarters.
Q. Well, you don't know of your own knowledge whether he ever commanded a Teilkommando.
A. No, I do not know.
Q. All right, proceed, Dr. Ratz.
BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, you said in the beginning that you were a member of the Nazi Party and not a member of the SS either. Did you have the impression as far as Herr von Radetsky is concerned that he was an active or a fanatic National Socialist.
A. No, I did not have that impression. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did you think that Blobel was fanatic National Socialist?
A. I cannot say anything about it because I never talked privately with Herr Blobel.
Q. Well, you were with Blobel every day. You saw him regularly. You can't tell us about Blobel but you can tell us about von Radetsky whom you only saw a short time, is that right?
A. I saw Blobel very rarely.
Q. Well he was the commanding officer, wasn't he?
A. Yes, but Blobel was rarely in the orderly room.
Q. Where was he when he wasn't in the orderly room?
A. Possibly in his private room.
Q. Well, how far away was his private room?
A. It was in the same building but I never had anything to do with Herr Blobel.
Q. Well, you saw him going in and out, didn't you?
A. I saw him occasionally when he left by car bur why he left I don't know.
Q. And you took mail in to him, didn't you?
A. No, mostly it was an officer or another man in the orderly room that did that. The one who gave him documents to sign.
Q. You want to tell us that you didn't know your own commanding officer?
A. I could not say that I knew Herr Blobel all right but since I had no personal contact with him.
Q. How long were you with him?
A. From June until March 1942 I was with this Kommando including the time I was sick and on recuperation leave.
Q. So you were with him 9 or 10 months?
A. About 6 or 7 months.
Q. How long were you with von Radetsky?
A. Only up to the time we were in Shitomir.
Q. How long?
A. That is about one to two months.
Q. So now you can tell us that von Radetsky was not a fanatic National Socialist but you cannot tell us whether Blobel was or not?
A. I had occasion to talk to Herr von Radetsky while he was dictating reports to me and to exchange some personal observations with him.
Q. Didn't you ever see any of the reports which Blobel made up?
A. No.
Q. Was there no discussion in the orderly room as to what Blobel was doing?
A. No. I know nothing about it.
Q. You know that your Kommando killed 39,000 in the space of a very few months.
A. I only found out after the capitulation that such mass killings took place in the East.
Q. You were right in the midst of all this carnage but you know nothing about it?
A. No. I know nothing of mass executions during all this time while working in SK 4a.
Q. Proceed Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. One concluding question. Did Herr von Radetsky ever talk to you about executions?
A. No, Herr von Radetsky never spoke to me about executions because the contents of the reports which he dictated to me were entirely different.
Q. And one final question. Do you know anything about it whether Radetsky ever participated in any form in any executions?
A. Personally I know nothing about it but only during the time which I have mentioned, namely July and August, was I with von Radetsky and I only saw him once more in March and I assume that in his capacity as liaison officer to the Army Headquarters he probably could not have had anything to do with such matters.
Q. That's all. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Mr. Hochwald. BY MR HOCHWALD:
Q. May it please the Tribunal. Witness is it true that you signed and swore to an affidavit dated on 21 August 1947?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say the truth in this affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it further true that you signed another affidavit, dated 10 October 1947?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say the truth in this affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. So you said the truth in both affidavits, is it so?
A. Yes.
Q. From your first affidavit -
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, the second affidavit is contained in my Document Book but I have not yet submitted it. I think there is no cause to question the witness about that affidavit.
DR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, the affidavit is in the possession of the Prosecution, in complete correct form. We have received the translated document book, the affidavit is before the Tribunal. I do think I should be permitted to ask him any questions resulting from this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ratz, you may not be familiar with this rule of law but in cross examination you may impeach the witness in any way, that is entirely relevant and certainly an affidavit made up by a witness is good evidence to use against him in cross examination. You may proceed, Mr. Hochwald. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. You stated in this affidavit of 21 August -- I am referring, Your Honors, to Document Book III-C, document NO-4765, page 30, No-4765, it is Prosecution Exhibit 137 -- that you worked with the Gestapo, is that correct?
A. Yes. I had been called into the Gestapo.
Q. You were in Hungary with the group Eichmann, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal what the task of the group Eichmann was?
A. As I heard in Hungary the group Eichmann carried out negotiations with the Government authorities in Hungary and it resulted in the Jewish population there being evacuated by the Hungarian Field Police.
Q. You know that the group Eichmann was this group which was assigned the task to kill the Jews?
A. No. I didn't know at that time.
Q. You didn't know that?
A. No.
Q. You wrote articles for the defendant Radetsky, cultural reports and reports on economy, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever speak to him about executions?
A. No.
Q. What did he have to do with executions?
A. I know nothing about it.
Q. Why would you then have been of the opinion that he did Know about executions if he never spoke to you, if he had never anything to do with it? Why did you, witness?
A. May I ask that the question be repeated please?
Q. Are you of the opinion that Radetsky is informed and was informed about executions in detail?
A. That he was informed about executions?
Q. In detail.
A. That is possible but I heard nothing about it.
Q. Are you and were you of the opinion that he was? That's my question.
A. As an officer the possibility existed that he heard about such matters.
Q. This is not my question. My question is very clear whether you are or were of the opinion that Radetsky was informed about executions in detail. Were you of the opinion, are you of the opinion, or are you not of the opinion?
A. I never thought about it.
Q. Were you interrogated about this question here in Nurnberg?
A. Whether Herr von Radetsky -
Q. No, about the question of executions?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it true that you said you do not know a thing about it?
A. Yes, that is correct. I merely mentioned that I knew about executions in Sokal and Luck.
Q. Is it further true that you were asked who would know about it? Were you asked that?
A. It is possible that they asked me that question.
Q. Whom did you mention who would know about these executions?
A. I mentioned that at least the commander had to know about it.
Q. Whom did you mention? You mentioned one name if you had know that a few weeks ago you must know it today, Tell us the name which you mentioned of the person who did know about executions.
A. As the only person who had to know about executions I named the Commander Blobel.
Q. Nobody else? Nobody else, witness?
A. It is possible that I mentioned the officer Karlsen.
Q. I will read to you what you have said: "Q. (I am sorry I have to read in German) How many people were exeucted.
"A. (your answer) I cannot give you the number."
"Q. Who can testify about these matters?"
"A. In my opinion the officers.
"Q. Who were the officers.
"A. Radetsky."
'Neither Blobel, neither Karlsen, but Radetsky. That is what you said, Witness,
A. It is possible that I said that at the time.
Q. All right. You have told me on very explicit questioning just three minutes ago the absolute contrary.
A. I said --
Q. I told you what you have said. Nothing else. Can you tell the Tribunal whether you are or were of the opinion that it would have been impossible that Radetsky would have carried out executions? Did I understand your testimony correctly to that effect?
A. I don't quite understand.
Q. Did you say in direct examination that according to your opinion Radetsky certainly could not have carried out executions?
A. Yes, I said that.
Q. Why?
A. Because in my opinion Herr von Radetsky was fully occupied in Luck making out his reports and later in Shitomir with writing reports.
Q. Were you interrogated about this question too, here in Nurnberg?
A. It is possible.
Q. Do you remember what your opinion then was?
A. It is possible that I then said that as an officer he could have had the opportunity to hear about such matters and I cannot remember anything further.
Q. You have not answered my question. The question was whether you were interrogated here in Nurnberg about your knowledge whether Radetsky carried out - not knew about - carried out executions? Were you interrogated about that?
A. That is possible.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Q Do you remember what reply you gave to the interrogator?
Q You did not say, "No", you only said, "I do not know, I was never outside, outside of my office." That is what you said, but you did not say with one word that it was, according to your opinion, impossible that he would have carried out executions. Let's go now to your second affidavit which allegedly is true.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, why not ask him whether that is a fact, that he did put it only in the realm of lack of knowledge and not a positive negative?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Thank you very much, your Honor.
Q (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) Will you answer the question?
A I didn't quite get that question.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, Mr. Hochwald asked you if in your interrogation you had been questioned as to whether von Radetzky had superintended or in any way taken care of any executions, and your reply in effect was here that your answer could only have been no. So far you understand what we are talking about, don't you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now, Mr. Hochwald now read to you from the interrogation which seems to say that you were put that same question and your reply was, "I don't know". "I don't know," of course, includes a positive, as well as a negative answer. Now, which is it, that you don't know whether he ever performed an execution or that he did not perform an execution?
THE WITNESS: I do not know. May I ask for a clarification?
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now then, you say you do not know. When Mr. Hochwald asked you that very question, you said your answer could only have been no, namely that he did not perform any execution. How do you reconcile those two statements?
THE WITNESS: May I say something about this?
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
THE WITNESS: I am a baker, and have never anything to do with legal matters so that I cannot make a legal distinction between the answer, "I don't know" and "No".
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal takes this statement to be correct, any form of cross-examination seems to be impossible. I do think the witness himself has just admitted that he does not know the worth of an oath.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Witness, I wouldn't understand why a baker wouldn't know the difference between "No" and "I don't know". What is there about baking bread that so confuses the brain that one can't tell between no and ignorance? The staff of life apparently does not help a baker very much.
THE WITNESS: I can only maintain my testimony, that I said at least during that interrogation I was not legally fit to handle such quibbling.
THE PRESIDENT: Such quibbling? Please read the interrogation, that question and answer.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Yes, I shall do so.
THE PRESIDENT: For a baker you are getting into some pretty technical language here.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I beg the Tribunal's pardon. I just can't find it at the moment, but I will have it in a minute. The question was, and I have to quote in German again, your Honor, "How many executions do you think Radetzky carried out?" The answer was, "I do not know. I never was outside." I do think there is no comment necessary, that between the explanation the witness gave today and the witness gave during the interrogation there is a colossal difference.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, give him an opportunity to explain that answer. BY THE PRESIDENT: