QThen you took these motor vehicles, and did you have a central motor pool and dispatch them cut as needed, or did you permanently assign them to teilkommandos?
ANo. From the very beginning the vehicles were distributed by the commando leader to the subcommandos or, at least, at that time there were no teilkommandos yet and it was only my task that repairs were made, when it was reported to me by a driver that the vehicles needed repair, then it was my task to see to it in case he needed spare parts that I would supply these natters.
QWell, whose responsibility Was it that once a truck, we will say issued to Sonderkommando 10B, to see that that truck was present for duty, at all times it was in mechanical running condition--whose responsibility was it?
AThe driver's.
QNow, to whom was this driver responsible?
AThat depended if he belonged to a platoon, he was responsible to his platoon officer and these vehicles which were not part of a platoon, as for instance tanks and first aid vehicles, these vehicles necessary for the entire commando, the drivers of those vehicles also were responsible to the commando leader, without the slightest doubt, to see to it that their vehicles were in working order.
QWell, as the motor officer's of the commando leader, weren't they responsible to the commando leader through you?
AI do not understand the question--I do not quite understand that question.
QYou stated that the drivers were responsible to the commando leader which was Major Persterer, You, as a motor officer of the commando leader were not these drivers responsible to him through you as the motor officer?
AI do not know, Mr. Walten. I don't know how you promoted me to a motor officer. I was no expert for vehicles or for mechanic.
I could only go into action when the vehicle needed repair and when information to this effect was received that this or the other spare part was needed which I--whereupon had myself informed whether this part was actually needed and then I asked it from the technical officer of the group.
QSuppose a teilkommando 10 kilometers from the headquarters needed a vehicle. They sent into the headquarters of Sonderkommando 10B and said, "We request a vehicle for a certain purpose," and which was a normal military purpose. Who was it that had the responsibility to dispatch them this vehicle for the use of a day or week or for a certain period of time.
Who was it that dispatched this vehicle at 10 kilometers?
AIf the whole commando had been concerned, it could have been done by the commanding officer as we had no reserve vehicles, In order to explain this situation to you, I would like to say that we were so badly equipped when we were assigned that we had great shortages, that we lost a number of vehicles as early as Chernowitz, and that we had no reserve parts, therefore, spare parts would have to be taken from other vehicles also -
QEvidently I do not make myself clear. The teilkommando 10 kilometers away needs a vehicle. Standing outside of your particular office is a motor truck which is not at the moment being used which belongs to another platoon of the commando. Who would have the responsibility to send this truck 10 kilometers for the use of this teilkommando that needed it?
AThe truck--there would have been no possibility anyway because apart from the kitchen truck and the tank truck which were constantly needed for general purposes, we had no such vehicles. Otherwise, in order to deal with your example, it would have been the commanding officer whose task it would be to either permanently or temporarily allocate such vehicles.
QSuppose the commanding officer was away on a trip and you were the ranking officer in the immediate vicinity, could you have dispatched that vehicle?
AWithout doubt there would have been a discussion between the man who wanted the vehicle and the man to who it had been allocated and those two people would have had to discuss this matter, and I could not have decided upon it because those leaders had the same service rank as I if not a higher one.
QThen you couldn't issue any orders concerning vehicles even if Persterer was away from his headquarters could you?
ANo. About the assignment of vehicles, I could not pass any decisions.
QHow, you state that you only had courses in military training for approximately one day. Let us suppose that General Ohlendorf sent an order down there that all executions must be carried out in a military and humane manner.
Would that have been your task to have distributed that information to every one of the 85 members of Sonderkommando 10B?
AWhat instructions?
QSuppose that General Ohlendorf sent an order that all executions must be carried out in a military and humane manner. Would it have been your task to have disseminated that order to all members of the commando to have disseminated that order to all members of the commando us the administrative officer?
ANo, because, he would not have addressed this order to me, that is the first thing, but this would have gone to the commanding officer.
QSuppose that at the time that this order arrived there that the Commanding officer was away one a five-day trip and this order had to be handled by someone, who was the man to handle it?
AI see no reason why such an order should have been passed on at all. I believe, however, that I have heard that the group officer gave this order from the very beginning.
Q you state that the group officer gave this order from the beginning?
AThat is what I heard here.
QWhere did you first hear this order?
AI don't know. I couldn't say in detail and certainly not in this concrete form. I can only know that Persterer said at the, time that the Gruppenfuehrer leader attached great importance to this and that all preparations would have to be made.
QWas this before you reached Chernowitz?
ANo.
QWas this in Chernowitz?
AI really could say that any more.
QBut you know that such an order was given by the commando leader that executions should be carried out in a humane manner according to the wishes of the group chief--you know that that order was given?
APersterer made remarks to that effect, and if I am not mistaken, he did so in connection with this execution in Chernowitz but I really could not say in detail.
QWell, suppose an order came from General Ohlendorf that had nothing to do with execution, just routine order, and Persterer was not at his headquarters. I want to know the name of the man whose duty it was to disseminate this order to the 85 members of the Sonderkommando?
AI cannot picture such situations because they never happened.
QWell, if it had happened?
AIt would have been possible that this order would then have been given to the next senior ranking officer.
QWould that have been you?
ANo.
QSuppose that the next ranking senior officer was away with Persterer, to whom would it have been given then?
AThere would have been a vast amount of possibilities as to whom it would be given. There were five untersturmfuehrer with their various tasks.
Q were you an untersturmfuehrer there Chernowitz?
ANo. I was Obersturmfuehrer.
QWho was the senior ranking Obersturmfuehrer or first lieutnant in Persterer's headquarters?
AThat was Obersturmfuehrer Zier, as far as I know.
QAnd who was the next?
AI can't remember just now whether it was Obersturmfuehrer Barth or myself, both is possible.
QIn other words you were the second or third raking officer in the headquarters?
AAt the most, the third.
Q.Yes, at the most, the third.
A.Of course, apart from the commanding officer.
THE PRESIDENT:When you say at the most, the third ranking officer, you mean that you could not have been second or first,
THE WITNESS:No, Your Honor, it could not have been.
THE PRESIDENT:Just a moment, I think you misunderstood the way I put it when you tell us that you were the third ranking officer at the most, you lean by it that you could not have been the second and you could not have been the first.
THE WITNESS:Yes, that is what I mean.
Q. (BY Mr. MAYER): Suppose then that an order came down which must be sent to all units of Sonderkommando 10-B and you were the only officer in the headquarters, would you have then Passed this order on?
A.I believe not, because such an order can always wait until the commanding officer is present himself.
Q.Suppose the order was addressed by General Ohlendorf to the officers and men of Sonderkommando 10-B. Wouldn't that have given you, as the only officer present, the authority to disseminate this order to Sonderkommando 10-B?
A.First of all, such an order was never given and secondly, I do not understand why I should have passed it on or make it known.
Q.All right, as the only officer present in headquarters?
A.This actually never happened.
Q.And the mail clerk opened this order, as he was supposed to do, wouldn't he refer this order to you, that came in the mail, as the only officer present?
A.I don't think, Mr. Walton that the clerk in the orderly room would have dared to open such a letter which was addressed to an officer.
Q.Well, orders are supposed to be obeyed, are they not?
A.Certainly.
Q.Yes, and when they have come to a unit, the only way they can be obeyed is for a man to know of them?
A.Yes.
Q.And if the commanding officer was away, it would be somebody's task to see that this order was given to the people who were to obey it, wouldn't he?
A.If such an order had been received, Yes, that would have been the task of the next ranking officer, that is, the Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q.Now we are making some progress. If you were the only Obersturmfuehrer in the Headquarters and that order was called to your attention, wouldn't you have seen that it was carried out as the ranking officer there?
A.I can't --
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, Mr. Walton is putting a very simple thing and it is simply this: If an order comes through addressed to all officers and all members of the kommando and you happened to be the only officer in the headquarters, you would naturally distribute the order. There is nothing complicated or difficult about that.
THE WITNESS:If it is a vent urgent order which has to be announced immediately, and there is no other officer present, I, of course, as an officer would have announced this order,
Q.That is the answer I have been trying to get for five minutes.
A.I am sorry I misunderstood you, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.And then we can assume that the possibility existed for You to be the deputy of the commanding officer, is that correct?
A.Hardly, Mr, Walton, because I have already said, I have already stated the subordination relationship. I have said that I was the third man, excluding the commanding officer and that only in case the others would not have been there they would have come to see me, and even then it is always the matter of content of the matter, what it is all about. If it does not concern my own authority then, of course, it would not have interested me at all, but it would have been sent to the expert dealing with such things. However, this situation never came about.
Q.The question did not go to the probability of your acting for the commanding officer. The question was: "did not the possibility exist whereby you could have in certain circumstances acted as the deputy of the commanding office, namely, the example which we have discussed?
A.I would not like to all this the deputy of the commanding officer or a representative of the commanding officer, because that would mean an internal procedure.
Q.Witness, your answer is not responsive. Answer yes, or no. Did or did not the possibility exist under certain circumstances where you could have acted as the representative of the commanding officer, answer that yes or no.
A.I would like to answer in the negative to this very general question.
Q.Then the possibility never existed where you could ever be a representative of your commanding officer?
A.Yes.
Q.What about your direct examination in your treatment of General Ohlendorf's order concerning the transport of the Jews when you stated that the Obersturmfuehrer Finger or Lipps, I don't know which one, was with the News, Persterer was away and you took it upon yourself to go back to General Ohlendorf's headquarters and consult with him a second time, concerning the transport of these Jews to Rumanian territory. Weren't you acting as a deputy of your commanding officer there?
A.No, I would not like to regard it as such for this trip, Mr. Walton, the specific order by the commander had existed, which had appointed me to accompany this man and then come back. This could not be carried out and thus an emergency situation arose which I have commented on. In compliance with this order, I went to the Group Chief in order to explain to his the emergency situation which had arisen and that the order could not be carried out.
Q.You do not think at that time that you acted as a deputy of Persterer When you treated with General Ohlendorf concerning the new development in order which he had given about these Jews.
You do not consider that. you were the Deputy then?
A.No.
Q.That is all.
A.I must add. Every officer would have done that.
Q.Well, let's turn to Document Book II D, page 45 of the English, page 48 of the German. This is Document NOKW 587, Prosecution Exhibit 92. Mr. Ruehl, how large was Chernowitz, how large a town.
A.I couldn't say, I did not really get to know Chernowitz very well.
Q.Could you estimate from what you saw there approximately how many people lived there in normal times?
A.That is difficult to estimate, because I did not really got to know the town and its extensions, but it is possible that 200,000 300,000, 400,000 people lived there, within this range I think.
Q.Well, it was a fairly large city, that is want I want. It certainly --
A.Fairly large, yes.
Q.It certainly did not come in the classification of village or small town. It was a large city.
A.Yes, certainly.
Q.Now, according to this report, to accomplish the task of searching for and I Quote, "Politically suspected elements" in this town, it took all the personnel of the Sonderkommando to make this search, didn't it?
A.You start from that point that what it says here in this report is correct. Whether it is accurate I do not know, but even if we take it for granted that it is correct, I don't see that with the men at the disposal of the kommando it would have been absolutely impossible to even approach a proper search of a town in two or three day, as it says in this document.
Q.All right, was not this the general procedure on the first arrival of a kommando in a town to search out the politically suspected elements in order to guarantee your own security.
Wasn't this the usual procedure when a kommando first came to a town?
A.No, I wouldn't go so far as to say that in any war. I made not such observations.
Q.Well, if the security was the first requisite of any military unit in the field, as a matter of spending operating procedure was not the security the first thing taken care of on the arrival at a new territory or a new area?
A.This area had already been passed by the frontal units and as it becomes evident from the reports all these elements had already escaped and only returned after a short while in order to work there, I can't really say that I over observed that any of these villages and localities were searched. This may be due to the fact that in the period after this, we arrived at territories where kommandos had been active before us.
Q.I believe you stated that these elements had escaped and returned. Was this the only town in your experience where these politically undesirable elements came back?
A.I think either I have not expressed myself very well or we misunderstood each other because this is not what I said. What I wished to say -- I did not speak about Chernowitz but generally about things mentioned in these reports. I assumed that we were speaking about this question generally.
Q.That's right, generally. You stated that in this particular time or, at least, that's the way the translation came through, that on the approach of the Wehrmacht or certainly on the approach of the German forces these people had escaped you said and later returned.
Now my question was, is Chernowitz the only town where these politically undesirable elements first left and later cane back in your experience?
A.I could not even say that of Chernowitz. From my own knowledge.
QAll right, we will go back a little farther then. Isn't it true that the first consideration of your commando on the arrival at any place was to make a survey to determine the situation with regard to their own security?
AThat is what I would presume, but I can not judge it, because I have made no experience concerning this, but this does not mean that the general obtaining of information in this survey, as you call it, means an investigation of the whole city, because only in very rare cases we have had enough men to do so.
QThis time you had plenty of men, because the Rumanians were there, is that not true, and by cooperation with your Rumanian Allies, could you not got plenty of men to comb the city?
AI must say this was Rumanian Sovereign territory, therefore, it was her not the task of the commando to deal with such matters, but it was the task of the Rumanians, so it becomes evident from this report there was a police commander, or police major who was a Rumanian, whose task it was, if there was nobody else to take care of it, that the security and order was maintained in this Rumanian capitol.
QWell, what task did the Einsatzgruppen have in Chernovitz then, if it was completely under Rumanian territory.
AI could not tell you. According to my observation I regarded it in this manner, that we would be there in preparedness for future actions, and this attitude of mine is being confirmed by the reports of events.
QIn a few minutes I shall find the document where it states in there that the action of the Rumanians against the Jews was desultory until Sondercommando X-B arrived. However, at this particular time I want to confine our consideration to this one document.
According to your knowledge, did any members of Sondercommando X-B assist in this search for political undesirable elements?
AI didn't hear anything about that,
QDid you hear anything why one-hundred Jewish Communists were shot by the command?
ANo, I have stated on my direct examination, Mr. Walton, I never learned about it at all, and that I am most surprised of this, and I want to exclude, the possibility that they were shot at all, I have stated that he reported to Army group, which was far away, and that there are no deputies of his, and no inspections need be carried out, but that he does not inform his group-chief, Ohlendorf, about it, although two days later after this report to the Army group, the group was informed too, but does not say anything about this in the report. A few days afterwards the group-chief himself was in Chernovitz to carry out inspection, and even on that occasion, we have heard, he was not informed at all about this, and apart from this such a story would be in direct contradiction to the order given by the group-chief of the commando.
QDo you deny then that this report ever went forward from Sonderkommando X-B?
AI can not deny that, and I did not deny that, of course.
QAll right, then, the only thing we can assume is that your commanding officer Persterer sent forward reports that were not true, can we assume that?
AI have to presume so.
QWell, you were associated with Persterer from May until around the first of October, some five months. Did he impress you as a man who would do things like that, who would send lying reports forward?
AI must correct this statement first. It was only just over three months, but certainly not five months. Also I was not with him all the time, so it is very hard to judge another person, especially if this problem of this kind is concerned. I only know he was very careful to be able to prove the activities of the commando, because he often complained that his commando was so much in the rear and wasn't committed to action.
QYou said he was very anxious to prove the worth of the commando, is that what you said?
AYes.
QWell, by proving the worth of the commando, that means he wanted it committed to action, did he not?
AYes,
QAnd that action, if the commando was committed, was to help solve the Jewish question in the East, was it not?
AAt the time I don't know anything about that.
QI didn't ask you what you know. I said, to prove the worth of the commando, one feature of proving the worth of the commando was to commit it to assist in solving the Jewish question in the East, wasn't it?
QNo, I can not answer that question in this form, because I have already said, Mr. Walton, that this order, as it has become known to me now, was not valid for the Rumanian Sovereign Territory, and those are matters which were not known to me at that time. Therefore, it is impossible that he would have reported any activity of this kind to a group, because in that case he would have made a resistance to a superior who would give him another order. I think.
therefore, we can not here argue about his trying to receive an assignment from the Rumanians of this kind, or carrying out such operation if he has orders to the contrary effect.
QWould you recognize the signature of Alois Persterer, if you saw it?
AI can not say. It is possible.
QWell, you have seen his signature, have you not?
ADoubtlessly but this is six years ago, and I have seen many signatures since. Persterer didn't write much.
QDid you ever see a photostatic copy of this report. Did your counsel ever show you the photostatic copy of this report?
ANo.
MR. WALTON:Please, your Honor, could I request that this exhibit be brought into court tomorrow morning for submission to the witness to see if he can identity the signature of his then commanding officer.
THE PRESIDENT:The Secretary General will please have the document referred to by Mr. Walton in court tomorrow morning.
MR. WALTON:This is Document NOKW 587, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 92, Mr. Secretary General. BY MR. WALTON:
QLet's go on a little farther in that. Do you know how far the City of Hodin, which is spelled "H-O-D-I-N" is from Chernovitz?
ANo, I am sorry, I don't know.
QDo you know how far the City of Chotin is from Chernovitz?
ANo.
QIn your opinion could the name of "Hotin" and "Chotin" be the one and the same place?
AI would think so.,I think it is marked on the maps in one way and then in the other manner. I have tried to find out which locality might have been meant and where it might be found.
QLet me ask you this. When you arrived at Chernovitz, did you find out that the Teilkommando, or subcommando of Sondercommando X-B was in Chotin?
ANo.
QWere all elements of Sonderkommando X-B present in Chernovitz when you arrived?
AI don't know.
QWell, as chief of the personnel, was not it your business to find out approximately where members of your command were?
ANo, that is quite impossible. The people receive their orders from the commanding officer. They don't report away from me. I do not keep a list so everybody has to sign when he leaves because -
QWere you not generally informed where the members generally were? In other words, when any Teilkommando were sent out. Do you know about that, as there must have been an officer there?
ANo, that was not necessary.
MR. WALTON:Your Honor, I've decided to take up another document.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, this might be the right place for recess. The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30 o'clock.
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon the Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 19 December 1947) Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Otto Ohlendorf, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 December 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Musmanno, Presiding.
THE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II.
Military Tribunal No. II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT:You may begin, Mr. Walton.
FELIX RUEHL -- Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION -- Continued BY MR. WALTON:
QMr. Ruehl, yesterday you stated on direct examination that you were in Chernowitz from approximately the 9th or 10th of July to about the 7th of August, 1941, did you not?
AYes.
QAnd you further stated that Kommando 10-B did not engage in any executions here, because this was Rumanian Territory, is that true?
AYes, with the exception of this story.
QYes. What was the mission of all kommandos of Einsatzgruppe D when they went to Russia?
AI am unable to say anything about this according to what I knew at the time. I already said that Persterer made known in Chernowitz and only that is known to me.
QYou did not know that the mission of the Einsatzgruppe and its subunits was to secure the rear areas behind the Wehrmacht in order that the line of supplies should be kept open. You did not know that at the time?
AYes, that I knew. I said so.
QWell, you did know the mission of the Einsatzgruppe while you were a member of it.
AI do not understand what you mean. I think we do not really understand each other. I said what Persterer made known to us as the task of the Einsatzkommando and, if I am not mistaken, I began by saying that he informed us that the kommando would have to deal with the security measures in the rear Army territory.
QDid he make that in the form of a speech in front of the kommando at the same time he introduced you as his deputy?
AThere are two errors, I am afraid, in one question, Mr. Walton. First of all, he never introduced me as his deputy because I was not his deputy and also I already said yesterday there was no general speech that he made, that I doubted whether he announced the assignment to the Kommando. It wasn't his way to do that.
QTell the Tribunal briefly what were the tasks of Sonderkommando 10-B during the months you were with it in Chernowitz.
AAs for the assignment of the kommando in Chernowitz, I can give you no information about it, because I never heard anything about that, because I was only informed about this general order which had to be regarded as a sort of general assignment during the whole time. In how far his assignment had to be carried out in Chernowitz I do not know. I said yesterday that it was my impression that the kommando in Chernowitz was alerted.
QYou were with the kommando in Chernowitz for a month. Now what did the kommando do while it was there and while you were there?
AI would like to say that this stay was used mainly for taking up contact with the Russian and the Ukrainian Army and to become acquainted with conditions. That was that I have experienced there. I am sorry that I cannot give you any further information.
QThe translation come through "taking up contact with the Russian and Ukrainian Army." You meant the Rumanian and the Ukrainian.
AThe Rumanian Army.
QRumanian, yes. Did Sonderkommando 10-B spend of its time inciting Rumanians to institute Jewish pogroms?
AI don't know anything about it.
QDid it spend most of its time assisting the Rumanians in carrying out a Jewish pogrom?
AThat again I certainly don't know anything about.
QWell, how many officers were there in Sonderkommando 10-B with you in Chernowitz during the month of July or August, 1941?
AHow many there were during the whole period, I couldn't say if I tried, since individual officers were always on the road dealing with assignments.
AAll right, since you were the personnel man, how many officers did Sonderkommando 10-B have in all, from Major Persterer down to the youngest Second Lieutenant, how many did it have in all?
ACertainly.
QHow many?
AJust a moment. Seven.
QWell, were not these seven officers in and out of Chernowitz?
AI wouldn't say that. They were not constantly on the road.
QThat's right. They came in and out of Chernowitz. Did you talk to them when they came to Chernowitz, or to some of them?
AI don't remember having discussed anything with them. I heard about this or the other story from them. In order to make this clear, I could say that, for instance, on one occasion one or two officers were sent off in order to cope with difficulties that had arisen between the Hungarians and the Rumanians; although they were both our allies, they did not like each other very much. Therefore, difficulties arose occasionally and on one occasion -- I remember this particularly -- there was a sugar plant where they were about ready to fight each other.
QThen you did among yourselves discuss your task, is that correct?
ANoo I wouldn't say that, only special events. Such unusual events, of course, were discussed occasionally; because they were so strange, obviously, that some one heard something here and there.
QWould you consider the execution an unusual event?
ACertainly.
QWould not it have been discussed among yourselves?
AYes, I would assume that it would. That is how I gained my knowledge.
QThen certainly from day to day you knew generally what the kommando was doing, if it had done something unusual, didn't you?
AI couldn't say that.
QWell, do you consider that the kommando carried out it mission to secure the rear areas behind the Wehrmacht in Chernowitz?
ANo, Mr. Walton. I said that I was not under the impression that the kommando ever became active at all in Chernowitz, except in this one case which I was informed about, where, on special instruction of the Rumanian Army, the kommando became active.
QWere you in Chernowitz on the 11th of July, 1941?
AYes.
QLet me invite your attention to Document Book II-C, page 46 of the English, page 52 of the German. This is Document No_2934, and it is Prosecution's Exhibit 78, Your Honors, I specifically refer to page 49 of the Document Book. Will you indicate, Witness, when you have found the place on page 6 of the original, which is headed, "Finsatzkommando 10-B, Location, Chernowitz."
AYes, I have found that.
QNow, according to this report, Chernowitz was not completely evacuated by the Soviet forces, according to your memory, is that true?
AI could not say anything about that, because when I arrived I saw no Russians in the place.
QAll right, if there were Russians there, wouldn't there be plenty of work for the kommando?
AI said, Mr. Walton, that I cannot remember having heard about Russians being in Chernowitz at the time.
QWhen you got there, wasn't there plenty of work for the men in the kommando to do?
ANo, I wouldn't say that.
QNot much wor? Well, will you tell me what it means in this report when it says, and I quote, "Action against Jews, until the arrival of the Einsatzkommando desultory." That is about three lines from the bottom of the page in my document book.
AYes.
QDoesn't that mean that they stirred up these pogroms against the Jews.
AWho?
QThe Germans and their allies, the Rumanians.
AI wouldn't conclude that from this, because here it says "action against Jews until arrival of the Einsatzkommando desultory." That means that action was taken against the Jews, but only until the arrival of the kommando.
QWell, according to my memory, I won't argue, according to my understanding, and I won't argue with you, it seems to me there was very little action against the Jews by the Rumanians or anybody else until the Ensatzkommando got there. All right, did you ever see a Ghetto in Chernowitz?
ANo.
QAccording to this report, the Jewish Ghetto was almost destroyed by the Red artillery. Could there have been a Ghetto in a city of 300,000 to 400,000 people?
AIt is possible, but I don't know. That is a theoretical question. In a town of such extent, there might have been one. I don't know whether, there was one. However, I did not hear about in in Chernowitz. I would doubt whether there was one, merely for the reason that I myself saw these people walking about freely in the twon and, not only that, they came to our hotel and tried to do business with us.