Q Now, as a matter of fact, wasn't it one of the principal tasks of the kommando to round up these Jews after their Ghetto was destroyed? according to this report, it took better trained and better disciplined German police forces to perform the security tasks in this city, didn't it?
A I don't know why in such a town, which is in a foreign country we should have authority to proceed against forces of this particular state.
Q Now, Mr. Ruehl, we will consider the Document Book II-D, page 37 in the English, page 40, Document No-2950, Prosecution Exhibit 90, and I am specifically interested in the report from Chernowitz that appears on pages 20 and 21 of the original -- that is found on page 39, Your Honors, of the document book. How many of these 1,200 Jews were arrested during the month of August by Sonderkommando 10-B?
A I am not in the position to tell you. I do not think that the Kommando arrested any. performed by Sonderkommando 10-B? mentioned. their interrogations were completed?
A I couldn't give you any information concerning this.
Q All right. This clearing of the area of the Jews was a joint operation by the Rumanians and the Einsatzkommando, wasn't it? document?
killed 682, and then you arrest 50 Communists and kill 16 of them, isn't that a clearing operation?
A I said, Mr. Walton, that I doubt that the kommando even as much as participated to any large extent in this action. correct? after the Wehrmacht had driven the Russians back, is that correct?
A Do you mean the occupied territory, Transnistria, by this? It would be true of that as far as I know, at least. be no territorial changes in war time, except by conquest?
A I don't know whether I understand the gist of your question, but I should like to answer it. As far as I can see, the question it this: Chernowitz and the whole surrounding territory Bukowina up to Setzno, was Rumanian sovereign territory up to 1939 and only for one year came under Russian Sovereignty. Therefore the consequence was that as soon as this territory was reconquered, this was taken over again by the Rumanians as their own territory and was proclaimed as such. This attitude I find confirmed in a report of events, but I don't know the number, but it is one in which it says that Chernowitz and Bukowina are Rumanian sovereign territory and that it had been proclaimed Rumanian sovereign territory. What International legal conditions are concerned in this, I do not know.
territory, were these 1200 arrested Jews Rumanian Jews or Russian Jews? been Rumanian. were they Russians or Rumanians?
AAgain I could say yes or no. I don't know. They might have been people who had been Rumanian citizen, and regained their Rumanian citizenship automatically. They may also be people who during the Russian occupation arrived from Russia as original Russian citizens, and remained Russians citizens. I could not tell you even if I tried. any civilians of conquered and occupied territories, didn't they?
A I am sorry, I don't quite understand this question. Rumanians, didn't they have the rights usually afforded civilian populations in conquered territories?
A I don't know. I don't know how far you could call Rumanian territory which again comes under the Rumanian sovereignty, occupied territory. would they not? All 682 of them, wouldn't they? were shot?
A I don't know anything about it.
Q Allright, let's turn in the same document book to page 41 of the English, Page 43 of the German, which is Document 4135, on page 42, Your Honors, and, I specifically refer, witness, to that report of Einsatzcommando 10-B, which occurs on page 3 of the original.
Now in this report it states that there was a Vorkommando at Chotin. Have you found that place where it says that? Where it says, "Location Chernovitz, Vorcommando at Chotin."? Chotin?
A I could not tell you. In my opinion it is misleading that a Vorkommando was stationed in Chotin, for I was not informed that a subcommando was ever stationed there.
Q Do you know a man by the name of Robert Barth? I'll refresh your memory -
Q -- he was a Hauptscharfuehrer in Sonderkommando 10-B? Do you know him? Vorkommando in Chotin. Do you deny that?
A Yes, I certainly want to deny that. I never even saw Chotin, and I certainly was never there with any Vorkommando. you certain instances of your behavior while in Chotin. Do you deny that you were the highest-ranking officer with this Vorkommando also? answer, Mr. Walton. I have stated and I am stating again explicitly that I have never even seen Chotin. I certainly never was there, and certainly not with a Vorkommando. I can not tell you more. correct, according to your testimony. Now as early as the 14th or 15th of July, according to this document, Commando 10-B was being criticized because its measures had not been severe enough.
What did Commando 10-B do to increase its measures against the Jews?
A I said yesterday, Mr. Walton, and if you now refer to this paragraph, that the following directive were given to 10-B. Incidentally, a criticism that nothing much was carried out is not even mentioned. I would like to correct that. If you are referring now to this where it states: "Directives are given to 10-B" I can only repeat what I said yesterday, that this order if it arrived at the Commando, was not known to me, and that I did not observe any effect of such an order. first intellectual persons, intellectually leading persons quoted in the report? Was it always the task of the Commando to execute these people first?
A. I don't know. intelligentsia, such as a lawyer, a rabbi, or teacher, had his life spared by the Sonderkommando 10-B in spite of the fact that he belonged to the intelligentsia?
A I didn't know the prerequisite for this, namely that there was such an order to this effect, but I can not say -I really can not say I know about such an order. where one of the intelligentsia had his life spared by Sonderkommando 10-B. Now is your answer to that yes, or no? actually carried out, and that I would know something to that effect and, that, therefore, I can not tell you because, as I say, I didn't know the prerequisite and I didn't even interest myself in these matters, and, therefore, I am not able to answer this question.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, that question is a little bit tricky. Not that you intended it to be so, of course. That question is a little bit like asking, have you stopped beating your wife, sir? If he says, yes, it means that he had been beating her, and if he said no, he is still beating her.
MR. WALTON: I withdraw the question, Your Honor. BY MR. WALTON: accused of setting fire to some houses?
A No, I have not heard anything about it. Where was this supposed to have happened? Jews in Chotin chased them over the ruins and shot at them? I have already told you, that I never even saw Chotin. I never entered the town of Hotin. Therefore, it obviates every other question. or Hotin. I am well aware that you say that you were never there, if so, all you need to do is to answer, yes or no. You already explained why you answered, yes or no. In Chotin didn't you with your own hands plus two drivers set fire to a Jewish synagogue?
Q Do you know how long this Teilkommando was at Chotin?
A No. I could not tell you. I have said that I don't even remember a subcommando having been sent there.
Q Did you ever hear of anybody being killed in Chotin? No. 2950, on page 39 of the same document book you hold in the English, page 40 of the German, in that paragraph where it says: "In the area of Chernovitz, Chotin has been bypassed, whereby 150 Jews and Communists have been liquidated." Did you ever hear of any Jews being liquidated in Chotin or Hotin?
A No, Mr. Walton, I can only repeat what I said to Mr. Wartenberg in my first or second interrogation - I don't know when it was - that I don't even remember the name of Hotin. Hotin does not mean anything to me at all. round up Russian Nationals, such as Jews, Communists and other asocial people while you were with it? departmental chiefs made use of Russian confidential agents, in order to deal with their tasks.
Q Did you ever see a confidential agent? the commander himself received civilians as visitors, and among those there were a number of Jews as well, and he discussed matters with them. confidential agents for their services? salary, or whether they were paid a stated sum for each denunciation they made to your commander?
A They certainly didn't receive a monthly salary, because I would have known about it, it would have gone through my office, unless, of course, the commanding officer had a fund for this purpose, especially at his disposal, but I don't know anything about that.
that are mentioned in this report on page 43 of the English and on page 3 of Document NO*4135, were these denunciations by these confidential agents sufficient to sign a man's death warrant?
A I don't know at the moment, Mr. Walton, what you are referring to.
Q. All right, let's go almost to the end of document 4135. According to this report, and I quote: "10-B finished its tasks at Chotin. Intellectually leading persons from the Soviet Party and public life, Jewish agitators, teachers,lawyers, rabbis were apprehended with the help of Ukrainian confidential agents in the course of several raids and treated accordingly." Now I ask you , was the denounciation by these confidential agents sufficient for Sonderkommando 10-B to issue a death warrant for this man or these men?
A. Such a question you cannot expect me to answer, Mr. Walton. How could I answer such a question? I never carried out any investigation in such cases. Therefore, I could not if I tried tell you anything about the investigations.
Q. Well, you stated that there is reason you supposed that confidential agents were being sent out because you used to see them in the commander's office. Now I am trying to inquire into just how much you know about these visits to your commando. If you don't know, all you need to do is say you don't know, but let me caution you that I am asking the questions and not you. Let's turn now to Document book III-D, page 24 of the English, page 46 of the German, which is Document 2840. During the month of August where was the commando stationed?
A. As of 7 August in Mogilew-Podolsk.
Q. Were you with the Commando during this time?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who it was that escorted these 6,000 Jews back to Rumanian territory, and had the argument with the Rumanian bridge commander?
A. First Lt. Lipps had the order to take them back, and I am not taking for granted that these figures here are correct.
Q. Do you know whether these Jews wanted to return to MogilewPodolsk and objected to returning to their homes in Rumanian territory?
A. No, so far as I was informed, they welcomed the idea that they should be able to return to their homes, and they would have a better prospect there than in the destroyed war territory.
Q. Now according to this report the Jews were collected in three collecting camps. Who established these camps?
A. I don't know what these camps looked like. I have not seen them, and I don't know anything about it, but I would assume that they were individual groups, which were quite large. Whether the establishment of these camps had been ordered or whether the people collected there themselves in order to support each other, that I don't know.
Q. Who put these Jews to work clearing the streets?
A. I could not tell you, I think it was probably the Ukrainian self-administration, who caused the work to be carried out.
Q. Who paid them?
A. That also I don't know, but I hardly think that this kind of work was actually paid for. My impression about the work which I had done in Russia, was that it was not customary to pay, because they were emergency laborers who I think were not paid. I could not , of course, tell you any exact details about it.
Q. Could these Jews ever refuse to do this work?
A. I don't know whether they were threatened with force and if so, how.
Q. What would have happened to a Jew if he had refused to work when ordered to do so by the Germans?
A. I could only give you the same answer again, that I have no personal knowledge concerning this.
Q. All right. Let's move on then to Document Book II-B, page 7 of the English, Your Honors, page 5 of the German, Document 2837, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 58.
THE PRESIDENT: What page is that?
MR. WALTON: Seven.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Witness, does the date of this document correspond with the events mentioned in paragraph three of your affidavit, which is Document Book III-D, page 76 of the English, Document NO 4149, and Prosecution's Exhibit 169. Does the date of this report, witness, correspond to the events mentioned in this paragraph three of your affidavit? I am sorry. Witness, on page 29 of the original a report is given from Einsatzgruppe-D, page 11, Your Honors, and it is about this paragraph that I asked you the question in connection with this paragraph three of your affidavit. Does the date of this report correspond to the events mentioned in this paragraph 3 of your affidavit?
A. May I ask, does the paragraph three concern the leading back of these people. I have not got it before me at the moment, I know -pardon me -- no, I don't think I have it. I only want to make certain. I'll also answer this question. I would doubt that as I have already said, the taking back of these people via taranpol in the numbers mentioned , the figure mentioned is 27,500, such figure I never heard about, neither in Mogilew, nor in discussions with the group-chief, and I would assume rather that the figure was the one I recall, namely from 12,000-15,000 people, and that the reference to this is in the report of the 26th.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, Mr. Walton only asked you if the dates corresponded. He wasn't referring to the figures - the dates. Put the question again, Mr. Walton, please. BY MR. WALTON: Document Book III-D, page 121 of the German. Do you have paragraph 3 of your affidavit before you now? which is on page 11 of the English text of Document Book II-B, and the events which you relate in paragraph 3 of your own affidavit correspond? dates.
Q Yesterday in answer to the President's question pointing out to you the inconsistencies in your direct testimony that "there was no cause for me to interest myself in this matter because the man competent in this case was, until the arrival of the Kommando in this sector, the Fuehrer who had been appointed who was not subordinate to me in any way" with your statement in your affidavit and I quote: "I tried to get these people together in Mogilew-Podolsk in order to take them back in a group transport", you stated that the affidavit was worded by Mr. Wartenberg and was misleading, is this true? you made the following statements about this event.
1. Persterer ordered me to accompany him to the Group Headquarters to hear what the decision of the Group Chief was in this matter and bring this decision back to Mogilew. Did you make that statement yesterday?
Q Second: I gave this message, that is Ohlendorf's decision, to the officer in charge of bringing these Jews back. Is that correct?
Q Then you made a third statement in this connection when you said: Then in his own competence this officer carried out this re-transport. Did you make that statement? ce. With that I want to say that he was responsible for the carrying out of this order and he carried it out by himself. "I cannot say with certainty how many were actually sent back because I did not see the transport." Did you make that statement?
Q Do you remember your first interrogation by Mr. Wartenberg?
Q Was there a stenographer present?
A You mean a stenographer? Yes, a female stenographer.
Q Did she take down questions and your answers in shorthand? she tried to do so. of May 8, 1947, would you recognize them? on it in detail I would doubt because we were both rather excited and quite some time has passed since then. tion. "Q. There were about 50,000 Jews in Mogilew-Podolsk who were taken over the Rumanian border?
"A. No, it was this way. I came from Czernowitz there then to install a Kommando in Mogilew-Podolsk. On the way I overtook a train which I was able to identify as an exile train which was escorted by Rumanian soldiers." Did you make that statement?
A Yes, but I want to correct this first sentence. I did not say that I arrived there in order to install a Kommando. I don't know how you read it but that is how it came through on the translation but I was sent there to prepare billets for the whole Kommando which was to be transferred there.
Q I skip a few sentences which are not particularly important. "I have thought a good deal about what could have been done since it was not possible to take care of them (referring to this transport of Jews again). I thereupon herded the Jewish people together in Mogilew-Podolsk with the idea of bringing them back. I tried it and went to Ohlendorf and asked him about it and explained the situation to him. I told him that the situation was impossible and I wanted to advise him that the people should be taken back. He agreed with me. I ordered them to collect and told them that I would take them back over the bridge." Did you make that statement in the interrogation?
A Yes, but, Mr. Walton, the wording which you have read does not make very much sense and I don't think I have to say much to this point. May I just take out one particular point, that I myself should have gone to see Ohlendorf, to suggest this to Ohlendorf and to cause him to tellme to lead these people back? That in itself is so peculiar and I think Ohlendorf has already given testimony concerning this point and, of course, he will confirm how it actually happened and who was to report to him about it. those statements in your interrogation to Mr. Wartenberg?
A Certainly not in this form. I have discussed this matter with Mr. Wartenberg and he said "this is what you told me", and I said, "it is quite impossible because it did not correspond to the fact. Therefore, how could I have told you such a story". I really discussed this quite some time with Wartenberg, the matter concerning these two affidavits.
A This is not an affidavit. This is the stenographic transcript of your interrogation and I am asking you if you made these statements. Let's read further. After you relate about your negotiations with the Rumanian Colonel at the bridge and his refusal to allow this transport over the bridge you state, and I quote: "Then I went back to Ohlendorf and told him that there was still one bridge that was German across the river. The people could go back over this. He also approved this" and then you said, "I call the train together and we march back to the borders of our Kommando and there, according to orders, changed and turned the train over to our neighbor Kommando 12. This train was then also taken over." Did you make that statement? you now about statements that you made on 8 May and you are positive that you never made this statement that I have just read.
A What I say is that I did not do it in this manner. I told him that the first attempt of these transports did not take place. As I was going to report to him about it. Lipps asked me to come to see him at the Rumanian Commanding Officer's Headquarters to tell him again that it was the decision of the Group Chief, that he heard himself that this was with the agreement of the German Army. On this occasion we went to see the Rumanian commanding officer and we discussed the matter again but he refused. On the next day I went to see the Group chief because the situation was untenable, or at least I regarded it as such, and after I had passed on the order I regarded it as my duty as an officer to notify the Group Chief immediately and to tell him that his order could not be carried out, that this and that situation had arisen, and I had decided to ask him for a new decision. It is quite possible that on this occasion I mentioned that down the river there was another bridge - that is quite possible.
Q Let's go on a little further. The question was then asked you by Mr. Wartenberg, "Who headed Kommando 12?"
And your answer: "Noske. He took the people as far as Jampol and there they went over the bridge happily". Did you make that statement?
AAgain not in this manner because I couldn't have said that, at least, as this was actually said in this particular wording doesn't mean that he himself was personally able to say this. By this it is only meant that he took charge of this in his capacity as Kommando chief, as people of his Kommando were concerned. I can only say again I did not go with this particular transport for one step. As far as I am informed, and I remember Lipps sent a few people with this column and I was of the opinion that these men escorted this column up to the border of our Kommando sector but as far as actual knowledge goes I have not been concerned with this incident.
and your statements made here disagree, which do you stand on, your statements made here or your interrogation and your affidavit?
A I may say the following here. The affidavit is the result of these alleged records.
Q Just a minute. Let me get an answer to my question. As between your statements made here and your interrogation and this affidavit, which do you stand on now, your statements made here or your affidavit and interrogation? witness stand. transport to the area of Einsatzkommando 12. Did he report to you after he accomplished his task?
A I do not know - not to me because that wasn't necessary.
Q Well, since you had taken such interest in these Jews, weren't you at least curious to find out what happened to them?
A Well, obviously when he returned he would have told me "Here I am again. The thing has been managed." But this would have been a comradely act but not a report, or whatever you want to call it.
Q All right. Did he tell you he had delivered the Jews as he had been ordered?
A I don't remember any details. He told me he only - he stated the transport had actually been carried out.
Q Did he say to whom he had delivered these Jews? these Jews and before he started back to his own unit?
A I don't understand the question.
Q All right. When he delivered these Jews to some one in the area of Einsatzkommando 12 he certainly didn't break down into a dead run and leave immediately to report back to his unit.
I am asking you now, did he ever tell you of any events in connection with this transport that happened after he turned over the Jewish transport and before he had started his journey back to his own unit?
A You presuppose, Mr. Walton, that Lipps accompanied and escorted this column to the border. I couldn't tell you that. you of any events that took place after he delivered the Jews and started back to his own unit - your answer is in the negative, is that correct?
A Yes. I never thought anything about it. transport of Jews?
A No. I regard this as quite impossible. He never told me anything about it either. I don't see any reason why he should have done that. and other places, isn't it a fact that you were convinced in your own mind that you sent these Rumanian Jews across the river you were sending then to their deaths?
A No, no, that is not so. Because that one would send a whole population to their death by shooting I never imagined that kind of thing would happen and I do not see from what you conclude this. I neither heard anything about it nor ever saw anything in the documents, and if you ask me about the picture in my mind which I have of this, I assumed that the group chief, who dealt with such important things after discussion between the Wehrmacht, also informed the Wehrmacht about it, and that there are discussions to this effect with the Rumanian Wehrmacht authorities.
Q Well, did you not know the anti-semitic attitude of the Rumanians?
anti-semitism as far as Rumanians are concerned. I would say I didn't use this expression. They were different attitudes. the Germans at this particular time? do they not?
A I would like to doubt that. I know of sufficient examples that this is not so. I mentioned the difference between the Rumanians and Germans.
Q Well, I will prove to you that your doubt is ill-founded. Both of you were fighting the Russians, were you not. Russians? of the Rumanians and Germans was the same. Now I am asking you, was not anti-semitism a basic policy of both the Rumanians and the Germans?
A You see here we do not understand each other, Mr. Walton. You were speaking of the war aims and you say that the basis of this war aim are common political opinions and convictions. In my opinion they are not necessarily a part of it. For instance, I may point out here an example you mentioned. The Allies - I do not think their political aims were the same yet they would have the same war aims.
Q Well, I will ask you this. Was it not one of their war aims to get rid of the Jews?
Q Wasn't that a common war aim between Rumanians and Germans?
Q As Allies didn't the Third Reich encourage the anti-semitic policy of the Rumanians?
A I don't know,
Q All right. Did you know when you sent these Jews to the area of Einsatzkommando 12 what Einsatzkommando 12 would do with them? chief that it was the task of the Kommando to lead these people back across the bridge and that discussion would have teen held with the Rumanians so that they would not run into the same difficulty. they got them, didn't you? back into the territory of the people that had expelled them, you knew that when you sent them hack, didn't you? was aware. I was of the opinion though, and I still am today, that it was less bad for these people not to be very well regarded in their own country or sector or position, than to be helpless in destroyed territory suffering hunger and being crowded. to the conclusion that if you sent these Jews back, some of them were very liable to be killed, weren't they?
A No. I don't see what reason I should have had to think so. I had not heard by then of any Jews being killed. Therefore, I had no conclusions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will begin recess 15 minutes.