QHow did they get over into the Ukrainian territory? Were they led over? Were they driven over, or how?
AConcerning this, I only know from the talks of this SS Kommando and from certain observations which I made during my march through Bessarabia and Rumania. The Rumanians, after the Russian campaign had started to drive the Jews from Bessarabia, the newly occupied territory and from the former Rumanian points from Jassy and so on across a bridge to the Russian sector and left the Jews there to their fate. It was talked about then that these 10,000 to 20,000 Jews had been led across a bridge near Mogilew. That was a Rumanian bridge which had been built from Rumanian pontoon bridges. They had been led across it over to the Russian side and immediately behind this Jewish column, this pontoon bridge had been dismantled. These Jews had tried to disperse in the Ukraine but by this Einsatzkommando they had been recollected and had then been taken in a mass in a few days up to my bridge upstream.
QWould you say that the exodus from Bessarabia was a forced expulsion or a voluntary pilgrimage?
AThat was certainly a forced expulsion on the part of the Rumanians.
QYes, was there any announced policy on the part of the Rumanian Government or its representatives with regard to this movement of Jews?
AIn old Rumania according to my observation, no measure had been taken yet against the Jews or only gradually. Of course, they were always stopped again, but in the newly occupied territories, especially Bessarabia, the Rumanians expelled all the Jews from their settlements and they were herded into groups and as far as I could observe it, they were led across the country until large columns were finally taken across the Dnjestr River into the Ukrainian territory.
QDid these Jews all move on foot?
AYes, they all moved on foot.
QI presume that it was an entire population. Therefore you had men, women, and children of all ages.
AYes, there were very old men of 80 and children, women with children, babies, etc. The whole Jewish population from the individual localities.
QDid they carry any equipment of any kind, household equipment?
AEach one had a sack or some luggage.
QDo you know whether the Rumanian authorities had provided them with provisions of any kind.
AWhether the Rumanians provided for these columns, I do not know. Sturmbannfuehrer Nosske informed me that he had seized peas in some place and the Jews lead to my bridge had been given these peas. He had them distributed to them. Furthermore, I saw when this long column passed my bridge, I sill saw peas lying on the ground.
QWhen had they left Rumania, do you know?
AThat must have been in August, 1941, because this retransport according to my estimate took place in the middle of August and the expulsion could not have taken place very much longer previous to that because the Dnjestr bridges were not built until July 1941.
QYou had not seen them when they cross over the first time, had you?
AThis column of Jews I had not seen, but when I traveled across Bessarabia I had seen Jewish columns repeatedly which were driven by Rumanian Constabulary across the country without my being able to recognize at the time where they were to be taken to.
QAt what bridge did they cross over the first time?
AI have already said these Jews who were led back across my bridge to Bessarabia were, as far as I was informed led into the Ukraine across the bridge near Mogilew, a bridge which was 30 kilometers or even more upstream from my bridge. Thus they were led across to the Ukrainian bank.
QAnd did you say that was a pontoon bridge?
AYes, that was a pontoon bridge; that was what I was told, that was a bridge which was made from Rumanian pontoon material, a rotable bridge. This bridge was then taken apart again after this column had passed, so that the Jews could not return across this bridge to the Bessarabian which is now Rumanian bank.
QAfter the Jews had crossed the bridge on the return trip and had reentered Bessarabia, did you ever learn what happened to them?
AYes, one or two days later, Rumanian Constabulary arrived , again colleted these Jews and transported them into the interior of the Bessarabian territory where camps were now set up.
QWere they not allowed to go back to their original homes?
AI don't think so; I didn't see anything to that effect. All I saw was in one or more places in Bessarabia, there were parts of forests surrounded by barbed wire, in which the Jews were kept.
QYou would say that they were then put into confinement when they returned into Roumania?
AYes.
QDr. Hoffmann, would you like to address some questions to the witness?
DR. HOFFMANN:I only attach particular value to the fact that the witness confirms that I have had no contanct with him before. And that he is testifying here without my ever having talked to him before, is that correct, witness?
AA few weeks ago I received a letter by a lawyer in Hanover. I can't say what the name of this Gentleman was who mentioned that he was defense counsel of a certain man, Herr Dr. Gruenewald, who had been before the War Criminal Commissar in Halle and was of the Staff of Dr. Nosske whom I saw on the occasion of this Jewish transport, and whom I saw on the occasion. Hr asked me fora statement concerning this incident. This statement I gave to this lawyer in Hanover, the name of whom I do not recollect at the moment.
DR. HOFFMAN:But his name wasn't Hoffman was it?
AIt may be possible.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, Dr. Hoffmann, even if you had spoken with him that would be entirely proper. There is no reason why an attorney may not speak with a witness and find out what he has to say. But your statement that you did not see him is adequate for the Tribunal and it isn't necessary for anybody to confirm anything what you tell the Tribunal with regard to yourself.
DR. HOFFMANN:With that I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, do you have any questions? BY MR. WALTON:
QWitness, were you a member of the Nazi Party?
ANo.
QWitness, were you admitted to practice law in Germany Before the war?
AYes.
Q are you a member of the German Lawyers' Association?
AYes. But there was a procedure for exclusion against me which was, however, without result.
QWasn't the German Lawyers' Association a branch of the Nazi Party for lawyers?
AYes.
QWho was the first person who asked you to testify for the defendant Nosske?
ANobody approached me for the defendant Nosske. I merely received a telegram the day before yesterday that I should appear in Nurnberg as a defense witness without telling me what case was concerned.
QDid you ever talk to his wife?
ANo. I didn't even know whether he is married.
QNow I understand from your direct testimony that you were the bridge commander on this Wehrmacht bridge crossing to the Dnjestr River. How many SD officers did you see the day that Nosske came to your bridge besides Nosske?
AAt least another two. There might, however, have been more officers. I must say that the insignia and badges of SS and SD I do not know very much about.
QWere you at that bridge all day?
AYes, I was there day and night.
QWhat time did Nosske arrive? What time of day?
AHe arrived in the day time.
QMorning, afternoon?
AThat I could not tell you now. It is poissible that he arrived the day before even but any way it was in the day time and there was quite some time left for the discussion or the release of the O. T. Bridge.
QDid you speak with any other SD or SS officers the same day you spoke to Nosske?
ANo, only Nosske had the actual-discussion with me.
QI am not speaking about the Jewish transport. I mean, in the normal course of business during the day did you speak about anything whatso ever with other SD officers or SS officers than Nosske?
ANo.
QTraffic was quite heavy across your bridge, wasn't it?
AYes.
QAnd units were constantly moving towards the front lines were they not?
AYes, but at that time, of course, only few German units crossed this bridge.
QWhat did your traffic consist of most of the time?
AAt that time there were mostly Italian supply traffic which crossed the Bridge.
QAnd you say that Nosske and his party were the only SD officers you saw during the day?
AYes.
QHow many did you see? How many SD Officers did you see the day before Nosske got there?
AI do not remember any.
QHow many SS officers did you see the day after Nosske spoke with you?
AAs far as I remember I did not see any afterwards either.
QYou could have seen them but you just don't remember, is that your answer?
AIt would have struck me, no doubt, if they had reappeared at the bridge. The next day another car arrived to bring me and my people some food supplies, but I don't know whether that was brought by an officer or a man.
QWell if you got food supplies they would come from the Wehrmacht and not SS units, would they not?
AWe received money for our supplies if we did not receive supplies direct, but with the money we couldn't do anything at all because the regulation slips were not valid in Bessarabia because it was Roumanian Sovereign territory, and in the Russian sector in the Ukraine, one could not buy any thing with that money.
QPerhaps you misunderstood the question. The car that came to your bridge the following day you say came with food. Now, I ask you the question didn't you draw your food supplies or your money to buy food from the Wehrmacht and not from the SS?
AThis was only a small additional supply we received on that occasion. At that time we did not receive any food from the Wehrmacht. We only received money but we could not use this money and that is what I told Dr. Nosske in the course of our conversation and then he said, "I shall send you and your people something to eat."
DR. HOFFMANN:I would only say, your Honor, the witness must give quite lengthy answer to Mr. Walton's question. Please allow him this answer.
THE PRESIDENT:I think the question has been put and the answer has been given.
BY MR.WALTON:
QThen I understand from your testimony that the officers who arrived the next day was an emergency measure and you drew some emergency food supplies from Nosske, is that correct?
AYes. We had difficulties with our food because we only received money for our food and and in order to help us a little Dr. Nosske sent us a little additional supply.
QYes, Your relation with Dr. Nosske were extremely friendly, is that correct?
AThere were a certain professional relation whiach was confirmed that night. He had worked with a lawyer in Halle and he, of course, especially as I was able to release this bridge for him thanked me in this manner.
QYes. One good favor deserves a favor in return, that's correct, isn't it?
AI did not regard it a favor. I regarded it as a particular way to show appreciation but also as a comradely act. As I say, it was an appreciation for my people and my men.
QNow, let's return. How long were you bridge commander at this particular bridge?
AUntil the third of September when a high flood washed the bridge away.
QApproximately two months time?
ANo, I said until 3 September. That is about just a little more than 14 days after that episode.
QHow many Jewish transports did you see during this time?
AAcross my bridge during my time there was only thos one transport which was lead back through all this night in question and only a few individual people still arrived the next say in small groups or by themselves without any escorts. They also went across this bridge to the Roumanian Bank.
QIn fact your orders were not to let anything but military traffic over that brifge, wasn't it?
AI wasn't really tolf anything about it. Of course, there were the traffic regulations in effect as it was a one way traffic. That is either from the front line or to the front line but I was not aware of any directives whom we should not let pass the bridge.
QDid you ever refuse to let any Jews cross your bridge?
AI was never put into this position to refuse; except for this one incident there was not request made to me and there was no civilian traffic across this bridge anyway.
QDid you say just a few moments ago that the next day individuals and small groups of Jews continued to cross this bridge after the main body of the transport had gone across?
AYes.
QWere these individuals and groups escorted by German personnel, either Wehrmacht, or SS or SD?
ANo I said just now they were not escorted but it was obvious that they were part of this column so, of course, I let them pass my bridge to the Bessarabaian bank without further ado.
QDid you speak with any of these individuals that crossed the next day or after the main body of the transport had crossed? Did you speak with them, talk to them?
ANo.
QWere they fleeing across or were they walking across just as if they felt safe in the persons, in their possession?
AThey were walking slowly across this bridge to the Roumanian bank and were glad they could go back to Roumania from which after all they had been expelled.
AI remember that the Bulk of Jewish column when they arrived on the Roumanian bank shouted "Hurrah for Hitler".
QIsn't it natural that an individual Jew unescorted would come to a German held bridge. I say isn't it natural for him to ask permission to cross that bridge rather than to walk on it, without permission
ANo difficulties were made for him and furthermore he had seen that the others had already crossed the bridge.
QYou instructed your guards to let all the Jews pass for a 24 hour or 48 hour period? Your bridge guards, that is.
AI did not have to tell the bridge guards. I did not say so in so many words. After 10,000 or more had crossed each individual person following would be permitted to cross the bridge. We had no control over civilian people.
QYou had control over civilian people when military traffic took precedence. You could keep them off of it, couldn't you?
AAs I said before there was no other civilian traffic did not exist. That's whay you mean to say, is it not?
AThat never actually happened.
QNow you stated in answer to questions put to you by the Tribunal that after arrangements were made with Nosske for the crossing of the bridge by the Jewish transport the Roumanian Commander on the other side was notified. Who notified him that these Jews were coming across?
ANosske went to see the Roumanian bridge commander on the Bessarabian bank.
QDid you go with Nosske?
ANo. He drove there in his car.
QHow do you know that the Roumanian commander then got on his motorcycle to go to see his superior?
ANosske told me, but it is possible that I saw it myself. Anyhow this Roumanian Lieutenant at the time of the beginning of this transport, was not at his sentry post.
Q.Now, after these Jews crossed this bridge, did they camp on the bank of the river for two days?
A.They camped partly on the banks of the Dnjestr River and partly they went further up to the rather steep bank, dispersed, and they lay down to sleep. Partly they went to the next village Kusauti (Kusiutz), until they were collected apprehended by Rumanian armed constabulary.
Q.Did you see these Jews during the whole time they remained on the opposite bank? Were they in your sight?
A.More or less, yes.
Q.But you couldn't see the portion that went farther inland to the next village, could you?
A.They didn't go that far. They had marched for too long by then. Individual persons might have proceeded to go further inland -strong people -- but remained the mass more or less together.
Q.And the last that you yourself saw of this transport of Jews was when the armed Rumanian constabulary were marching them off from the Dnjestr River, is that correct?
A.Yes, that was the last I saw.
Q.And you don't know what happened to them after they marched out of your sight, do you?
A.Later on I went to Northern Rumania on a few occasions to Jassi and Jasch, in order to take money for supplies, and on these occasions I saw on my travels through Northern Bessarabia that meanwhile one or more Jewish concentration camps had been set up.
Q.But you don't know whether any of this Jewish transport was put in those camps, do you?
A.I presume so with a 100 percent certainty.
Q.But you don't know of your own knowledge; you just presume so?
A.I think it is so absolutely certain because according to my firm conviction none of these Jews went back to his own home -- locality.
Q.Did you see them put -- commit these Jews to these barbed wire enclosures?
A.I did not see them being put in but I saw them behind the barbed wire.
Q.Did you ever talk to any of these Jews behind the barbed wire and they told you that they had crossed your bridge?
A.No.
Q.So, so far as you know that as soon as they got out of sight or nearing of the bridge that the Rumanian constabulary could have executed them? Couldn't they, so far as you know?
A.What could the Rumanian gendarmerie have done?
Q.Executed -- shot them down.
A.That, I think, did not happen.
Q.You think did not happen?
A.Because I would have been informed about it at that time if such mass executions had already taken place.
Q.Who would have informed you?
A.Well, I think one would have heard about it.
Q.But so far as you know it could have happened? You just didn't hear about It?
A.I did not hear about it, but such event at that time would have been talked about, because at that time such mass executions had not happened. That only happened later on during the course of the further Russian campaign, and then, of course, one was being told about these things.
Q.Now, you did not know that so many Jews were in the German occupied territory until Nosske came and told you, is that correct?
A.I should like this question to be repeated. did not quite get it.
Q.Yes. The first you knew of a large Jewish transport, from ten to twenty thousand was when Nosske came to you at your post as commander of the bridge and asked you to let these Jewish people pass.
This is the first you knew of a large Jewish transport in the territory next to your bridge, is it not?
A.Yes, except for the fact that before in Bessarabian territory I had seen smaller columns of Jews which were escorted by Rumanian constabulary across the country.
Q.And, so far as you know, Nosske could have performed executions upon some of these transports of Jews before they ever got to your bridge, couldn't he?
A.But -- He could have done, but I did not hear anything about it, and I do not think that at that time executions took place.
Q.But you didn't hear whether he had or had not? He could have, but you just didn't hear it; is that correct?
A.I certainly did not hear. But when --
MR. HOFFMANN:This kind of hypothetical question, your Honor, I would like to object to. On the one hand, Mr. Walton confirms that the hypothesis which the witness states are in favor of the defendant are not valid and they must not be expressed; on the other hand, he tried to put up hypotheses which are unfavorable for the defendant to draw his conclusion. I think that a cross examination can be conducted thus to establish the credibility or incredibility, correctness or incorrectness of facts, but I don't think -it can only deal with hypotheses for half an hour.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, if hypotheses are going to be presented naturally they must be presented in a way that the answers may express an observation which will illuminate the situation as exists, whether it be favorable to the prosecution or favorable to the defendant. Put your question again. BY MR. WALTON:
Q.I asked the witness that at some time before he knew this transport of Jews was in the area close to his bridge the defendant Nosske could have performed execution on a portion of it, so far as his knowledge was concerned. He has answered that it could have, even though he did not think that it did. Which is, to my mind -- is a responsive answer.
MR. HOFFMANN:I object also to this question, because Mr. Walton could with equal right ask whether Nosske during this time when the witness was not there whether he slept during that time.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, that is a very natural conclusion. The probative value of that is for the Tribunal. If you ask a person whether he could have flown to the North Pole and he knows absolutely nothing about it, his answer must be, "Yes, he could have, if he had the necessary equipment" and so on. Whether there is enough in the substance to prove anything is something for the Tribunal to determine: but just merely out of a void presenting a hypothetical situation when the witness himself has no way of determining whether it can or can not be true does not help the court much from a probative value point of view. BY MR. WALTON:
Q.All you know is that Nosske did not mention the fact to you that executions had or had not occurred while these Jews were under his command. That is all that you know, is it not?
A.Yes, but I am firmly convinced that Nosske or his men would have told me about these executions if such had taken place.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, may I interrupt? One of the members of the Tribunal has suggested that the witness comment on whether he knows of executions of Jews on either side of the river.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q.Yes, Witness, how long were you in this area all together, whether you were the bridge commander or the bridge builder, or in any capacity, how long were you in this area where this bridge existed for two weeks?
I helped building the bridge and I was with this bridge until this bridge was destroyed by floods. I remained in Russia afterwards until the year 1943.
Q.Well, how many months were you in this area? Or, how many weeks were you in this area? From when to when?
A.From the beginning of the Russian campaign until the October when I went to join my unit.
Q.Approximately four months?
A.Well, three.
Q.Were there any executions performed by anyone in that area while you were there?
A.No, No, nothing was told at the time about executions, either,
Q.I don't mean whether anything was told; I mean, did you see or did anyone report officially to you an execution had taken place? Is your answer the same?
A.Yes. Yes, I have not heard, or seen anything.
Q.Were you ever stationed until 1943 near SS or SD units?
A.Later on I saw in several localities that SK detachments had taken up billets, of which it was said they were the detachments that had to deal with Anti-Jewish operations.
Q.By "dealing with anti-Jewish operations" you mean executions, do you not?
A.That was made known later. I did not observe anything. When I arrived in Russia in October I learned during the following months that from the Russian villages Jews had been expelled and had been killed, in tank ditches; but this was news to me, in Bessarabia and Ukraine during my time nothing of that kind ever happened, or at least I was not informed by any parties about such events having happened.
If such incidents had happened at that time one would have got to know about it.
Q.Do you know what German units performed these acts and executions that you heard of later?
A.No.
Q.Could you assume that they could have been either Security Police or SD or could they have been units of the Wehrmacht?
A.The Wehrmacht, as far as I could see, had nothing to do with this.
Q.So it must have been units of the police which followed behind the lines of the Wehrmacht?
A.Yes.
MR. WALTON:No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Hoffmann, any further questions?
In view of the fact that Dr. Hoffmann, in effect, invited you to come to Nurnberg as a Tribunal witness, we thank you for having made the trip.
The Tribunal will now adjourn and reconvene on Monday morning, January 5th which will then be a new year, 1948.
(Court in recess until Monday, 5 January 1948, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America; against Otto Ohlendorf, et al;, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 5 January 1948, 0930-1630, Justice Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
HEINZSCHUBERT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SPEIGHT:Witness, will you raise your right hand and repeat this oath after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing. (The witness repeated the oath) You may be seated.
MR. HOCHWALD:If the Tribunal please, before the Christmas Recess, during the testimony of the court witness Frieda Reich, the Tribunal ruled that certain exhibits which were put in by Dr. Riediger in the case or the defendant Haensch would be put at the disposal of both parties for investigation. As most of these documents, in fact, all of them with the exception of the affidavit which the court witness wrote in her own handwriting, and which is only for purposes of comparison, were put in by the defense, which were the guarantees for their genuineness by putting them before the Tribunal, we request at this time that we should have the possibility at this time of investigating these documents first.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal ruled at that time that you would have the right to obtain the documents, so that we are only repeating when we say that you may - -
MR. HOCHWALD:Thank you very much.
THEPRESIDENT: -- get the documents and use them for the purposes indicated.
MR. HOCHWALD:May I then ask the General Secretary to be so advised about these documents.
THE PRESIDENT:The Secretary General will turn over to the Prosecution the documents under discussion.
MR. HOCHWALD:Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT:You are welcome.
MR. WALTON:May it please the Tribunal, there are now in the hands of the Secretary-General some voluminous defense document books of the Defendant Ohlendorf. In view of the press of other business over the holidays, and the fact that I happened to be the only Prosecution Attorney present during that time, I confess that I have not thoroughly examined the document books. However, my examination does show that at least sofar as the Prosecution is concerned, there are some documents which are objectionable. If it is convenient for the Tribunal I should appreciate in view of the number of document books for the defendant Ohlendorf that an announcement be made by counsel at least twenty-four hours before he plans on introducing the document books in order to give me a chance to list the documents which I believe are objectionable for purposes of entering formal objections as they are formally introduced
THE PRESIDENT:The request is a very normal one, and, Dr. Aschenauer, do you have any objection to the request made by Mr. Walton?
DR. ASCHENAUER:No, Your Honor, I have no ob jection.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. Allright, you may now proceed.
DR. KOESSL:Dr. Koessl for the defendant Schubert. I would like to be permitted to examine the defendant Schubert in his own case.
THE PRESIDENT:You may proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. KOESSL:
QWitness, give us your personal data.
AMy name is Heinz Hermann Schubert.
QWhen and where were you born?
AI was born on 27 August 1914 in Berlin-Lichterfelde.
QWhat schools did you attend?
QFirst I went to grammar school for 4 years; the elementary school in Eisenberg, Thueringen, for 3 years, and Grammar School in Berlin for one year. After that for six years I attended the Realgymnasium (High School) in BerlinLichterfelde, and left school after the seventh class, that is, the Obersekunda, and was given a diploma.
QIn the Document Book III-D, English page 100, German page 147, there appears your curriculum vitae. This is Document No. 3244, which is Exhibit No. 172. Does that give your correct date of your marriage?
ANo, the date of my first marriage, which is mentioned in this document here, is given here as "1 February 1940", but it should say, 21 December 1940.
QDid your first wife die?
AYes. My first wife and my child were victims of one of the first bombing attacks on Berlin.
QDid you then remarry?
AYes, I married then for the second time, on 23 August 1943. I now have a boy three and one-half years old.
QAre there any other inaccuracies in your personnel files?
AYes. On the second page of this document at the top the date of my joining the party is mentioned here as "1 May 1944" and it should say "1 May 1934." I presume that this must have been a typographical mistake which was made when the document was copied. On the next page of the same document under the heading "Party Activities" it shows "Speaker in the Gau Indoctrination Courses" in Berlin (Gauschulungsredner). I don't know how this entry got into the original, or into this document. I have never been a speaker in my life, and sofar as the Party is concerned I did not belong to the Berlin District, and, furthermore, I was never active in the political organization of the Party. I was only a nominal member of the Party.
QHow did it come about that you joined the Party, and when was that?
AEffective 1 May 1934, without doing anything about it myself, I was transferred into the Party from the Hitler Youth of which I had been a member since 1931. Of course, I never raised an objection against it, either. I was nineteen years old at the time, and at that time it was generally considered a token of recognition for members of the Hitler Youth to be transferred into the Party if they were regarded as qualified.
QWere you a member of any formations of the Party?
AI have just said that I was a member of the Hitler Youth.
QSince when?
ASince the beginning of 1932.
QDidn't you say 1931 before?
AIf I said that I must have made a mistake. I beg your pardon. I was a member since January 1932.
QDid you hold any full-time office in the Hitler Youth?