If you would turn to Document Book II-C and I am quoting from page 60. This is Document 3240, Prosecution Exhibit No. 80, on page 65 of the German, under the heading, "page 5 of the original," Your Honors, there it is said in Stalino nearby 500 persons were executed, 369 of them Jews. Would you call that a mass execution, Herr Graf?
A. Yes. unit and you did not know about it?
A Dr. Hochwald, may I draw your attention to the fact that in this document it says, I quote, "As a result of the measures carried out by the Einsatzkommando 6, the localities Gorlowka and Makejewka are now free of Jewish components." These places were the garrisons of two subkommandos, Gorlowka and Makejewka.
A "A small number who remained in Stalino will be resettled as soon as weather conditions permit. Here a total of 493 persons were executed." It does not become evident from this document in what locality these people were shot. this paragraph? Isn't it absolutely clear that these 493 persons were killed in Stalino? Here a total of 493 persons were executed. means the sector of the Einsatzkommando EK 6.
A I said that I can't comment on this document as such.
Q So you say that all though you were 1 1/2 years with Einsatzkommando VI you did not know that the main task or that it was one of the tasks of this Einsatzkommando to kill people in great numbers?
A No, I did not know then, Mr. Prosecutor.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I have no further questions. BY THE PRESIDENT:
executions performed by Einsatzkommando VI. I don't know that I will take the trouble of reading each item, but, if you have gone through the document books, you will see Einsatzkommando VI repeated 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 times. Have you found those references in the document books? occurred, in view of their public nature. it would be rather difficult for you not to know about them, especially in view of the fact that you were charged with writing reports on the morale of the population. Isn't that logical? point, in my opinion, it can only be a matter of individual people and such an episode does not stay in one's memory so much as a larger matter. Of 20 or 30 persons in any case, I did not hear anything about it. of individuals taken to be killed through the streets would not make an impression upon those who saw them passing?
A Yes, Your Honor. That would have made a lasting impression on the population and would have had some response possibly, but I do not know anything about this incident and therefore I can say nothing about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Before we adjourn for the day. I would like to ask defense counsel to see to it that their document books are submitted and those who have document books ready for presentation should be in court tomorrow to present them, because after we will have completed the Graf case, we will not immediately take up the cases of Rasch and Strauch, because there is still some medical examination pending in those two cases. They will, however, come immediately after the documents have been presented.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 8 January 1948, at 0930 hours.)
8 January, 1948, 0930-1630. Justice Musmanno,
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in this Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Belzer, do you have any more questions to put to the defendant?
DR. BELZER: I have just one more question int the redirect examination, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BELZER: occasions yesterday that you as a non-commissioned officer in the Commando HK 6, that after all you held quite a high rank. Now, II would like you to tell the Tribunal on who had a lower rank then you in the HK 6. drove along during the advance in the East had a higher rank than you had?
A Yes. He was a Hauptscharfuehrer.
DR. BELZER: I have no further questions in that case. BY THE PRESIDENT: ments this Einsatzkommando 6 had participated end we had before us a list - yes, Judge Speight has handed me a list here indicating 13 different reports which tell of executions conducted by Einsatzkommando 6, and I think you have confirmed that there were 13 reports.
Q It seems rather extraordinary, don't you think, that with your being a member of this kommando that period of time that you wouldn't know of these executions or most of them.
the prosecution yesterday, when I was cross examined, I did know about executions, but what I did not know was an exact figure, and I didn't know what extensions these executions took because that was not my sphere of activity. would know the exact number of people that were executed, but you knew also, did you not, that Jews were being executed just because they were Jews?
A No, Your Honor. During the time of my assignment I did get told know that. person of your intelligence and of your more or less daily association with the men who were engaged in this week, in this activity, that some time or other you wouldn't learn that they were being called upon to shoot and liquidate people merely because they were of a certain race or nationality. make an explanation concerning this?
Q "At any time", is that the translation?
INTERPRENENT: "At everytime."
A who sometimes were 200 kilometers from thee H.Q. of the EK 6, and the existence of which I was never aware. Furthermore, EK 6 advancing passed through the most important industrial territory in Russia and worked there. We, for instance, if in one report, as week saw yesterday, there were locations mentioned, like Wokolowka and Makajewka, those were garrisons of sub-commandos of EK 6, if in fact these are mentioned, these are not small villages, but they are towns with more than 100,000 inhabitants.
I had nothing to do with these sub-commandos and , quite honestly, I did not interest myself in what these men did who mainly consisted of people from the Department IV and that, Your Honor, is the reason I do not have this knowledge which you expect me to have.
Q Just what were your duties with the commando? the reason that our commando was stationed in industrial territories only which work was confronted with more problems of every kind, more problems then there would have been in an agricultural neighbourhood, the tasks of Department III were many-fold. We had a lot of work. our work was very extensive, and I did not only have to visit the German informers during the day but also in the evenings in order to get my material.
A Now, we have one report here which says "On 13 October 1941 approximately 10,000 Jews shot in" and then we have the name which Mr. Hildesheimer and I have difficulty in pronouncing.
Q "that because of an extreme shortage of skilled laborers some Jews had to be kept alive temporarily, up to the date of the report a further 1,000 were shot. Steps are being taken for the extermination of 1,500 inmates of the provincial lunatic asylum." Now, this entire picture is one of such enormity that it seems a little difficulty to comprehend how you would not be aware of it. 10,000 Jews shot, then preparation being made for the liquidation of 1500 inmates of a lunatic asylum which in itself is a rather grotesque procedure at best. And then some were being reserved for your field reporting on industry. How could you now know about this?
as well as in the cross examination, and as far as I remember, even in my interrogation, I said that I learned of this special action, which it is in this case, it is in fact a special operation on the part of the SS - of the higher S and police leader - and that from the population.
A Your Honor, I wouldn't like to express it as precisely as that. I heard voices within the population, mainly officials of the new Ukrainian agencies, and in accordance with my duty, I reported about these to my commando chief because that was part of my tasks to reported about the atmosphere and the attitude of the population, and Dr. Kroeger, my commando chief told me then that that had been a special operation ordered by the higher SS and police leader and that no single men of his commando had participated in that, and so I had to satisfy myself. were shot, I did not know. of yours, going out of a day and finding himself engaged in shooting Jews, shooting human beings, and then coming back and not discussing it, especially when he has been engaged in the shooting of great numbers, that would be the most natural thing for this man to come back and make some remark about the terrible task to which he had been committed that day. It doesn't sound reasonable that he wouldn't talk about it. fact, especially in this case, that they were not comrades who carried out this police operation. According to my knowledge, the higher SS and police leader with his units at that time was in Dnjeprpropetrowsk and - I am sorry - in Kriwoij-Rog , that was mere than a hundred kilometers from Dnjeprpropetrowsk.
I don't know what kind of men they were. I don't know who they were. I never saw them, and, therefore, I never talked to them, and I certainly could not get any knowledge about this terrible happening. It isn't that these were men of our commando; if that had been the case, in that case I would admit that the men certainly would have been excited about it and would have reacted accordingly in some form or other.
Q Well, let's take up Operational Situation Report 94 dated 25 September '41. Were you a member of the commando in August of '41
A Yes, Your Honor. In August 1941 I was with that liaison officer AOK 17.
Q. Now, I will read under the heading, "Einsatzkommando 6". "During the period 1 to 13 September 1941 executed 60 person. Group staff was able to liquidate during the last days 4 political officials and informers of the NKWD, 6 associal elements and gypsies, and 55 Jews." Then comes this most appalling statement, "These units shot a total of 44,125 persons in August, mostly Jews." Now. does it accord with -
A. May I ask what document book that is, and what number of document that is because I do not have it in front of me
A. Yes. It is in II-C, page 62, and the number of the document is No. 3146. That is page 62 of the English, of course.
A. I have it, your Honor. In the same document it says under Roman figure I, "Locations: EK 6 is stationed in Kriwoij-Rog, where also the higher SS and police leader has moved." And then on page 15 of the original from which your Honor has been quoting, I assume -
Q. Yes, that is right.
A. When looking through this document, your Honor, I have tried very hard to understand it because, first of all, I cannot imagine that the EK 6 had a group staff, but here it says, "Functionaries of the group staff could execute 6 associal elements, 4 political officials and informers of the NKWD, during these last days and 56 Jews --." According to my personal opinion, when this document was made out in Kiev, a mistake must have been made and the man who made out this report probably mixed it all up because EK 6 did not have a group staff. I could not imagine who that could have been. "Group Staff" is only -- with the group -- and I am not aware of the fact that the group staff was KriwoijRog, I don't know.
At any rate, I did not see it because, as I said, too, Your Honor, because I was not in Kriwoij-Rog in August; and then it says in the next sentence in German of the original, "actions of the higher SS and police leader, in August, altogether 44, 125 persons, mostly Jews, were executed." This sentence I am even more unable to understand. First of all, I do not think that at the time there were more than 30,000 people all in all, in Kriwoij-Rog. Secondly, it was shortly after advance; it was frontal territory; fighting still took place there, even in the vicinity of Kriwoij-Rog there was hardly anybody, or hardly anybody at all in September. I saw it myself, for instance, that we had moved to a village and there were about 15 or 20 people in that village. The others had escaped because they didn't want to be between the tow front lines and be exposed to bomb attacks, and it was only later that the population moved back. I can, therefore, not imagine where the higher SS and police leader should have taken these 44,000 people from. As far as I can see, this is quite impossible. Then I may draw the attention of your Honor to the fact that the sphere of activity of the Higher SS and pllice leader is mostly comprised of a whole territory or country like the Ukraine or at least a number of provinces within the Ukraine. These people could have been shot 2 or 3 or 4 hundred kilometers away from that place where I was at the time, and as far as I can see, your Honor, in the territory while in Kriwoij-Rog, which is iron ore territory, industrial territory, therefore, there were very few Jews. Therefore, I can only repeat that I cannot understand this document, and I do not know how it was compiled.
Q. In quoting from this document we did not intend to assert that it established beyond the peradventure of doubt that the Einsatzkommando 6 had killed 44,125 persons.
A. I understood that, your Honor.
Q. But only to call to your attention that somewhere in your vicinity great numbers of Jews were being liquidated. Now, even if we say it was 200 kilometers away, that is not so distant that knowledge of so appalling an episode would not filter through, especially in a military time when there is constant movement and traffic, and soldiers talk. What we are calling to your attention is the difficulty of grasping how a person of your obvious intelligence could fail to know that there was a widespread operation which called for the extermination of a race. That is what we can't quite grasp.
in the territory in the vicinity around Krinoij-Rog, in a radius, shall we say of 50 kilometres, there were very very few Jews. At that time I did not hoar of operations of the SS and Police Leaders neither from German soldiers nor by Ukrainian civilians, and if Your Honors would like to ask the witness, the female witness, who is to appear here, who also was in Krinoij-Rog, she will confirm this. At that time I never heard about those terrible figures and I never heard that extensive numbers of Jews were shot in Krinoij-Rog. belonged engaged in executions of mental hospital inmates I can only say that I do not understand. The same report concerning the killing of insane people appears twice in these reports; the first time on the 12th of November, it goes to the account of Einsatzkommando 12, and a second time, I think it was in February, there were no agencies mentioned as being responsible; but in February EK 6 was not in Dnepropetrosk. It is Document 3340. I am just about to look. It is Document Book I, Exhibit 22, No-3340. Here it says on page 5 of the original, in the time between the 10th of January, until the 6th of February, 1942, in Dnepropetrosk, 17 habitual criminals, 103 Communist functionaries, 16 partisans, and approximately 350 Jews were shot after summary court. On page 6 of the original, apart from that, it says 400 inmates from mental asylums in Igrin and 320 of the mental asylum of Wasilowka were eliminated.
Q What do you intend to show by that. I did not quite understand. reported about on two different occasions. I did not hear about such shootings during my time and it is quite possible that is is the result of a mix-up of some kind, but I cannot really comment on this positively, because I have no knowledge of the incident myself. I would only like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that this report appears twice and it is questionable who is the author of this, for instance, because I cannot imagine that in a mental asylum an act of this kind is carried out twice.
I do not know about this incident. Jews were shot after court-martial, or some such phrase.
Q The document says, "by order of summary court."
INTERPRETER HILDESHEIMER: I did not have the document. It is summary court.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
A I did not want to comment on this document. I only wanted to draw you attention to the fact that there is something unclear about this. I did not hear anything about this operation. I was not in again and I did not know anything about it. time? mine who had been killed was buried. That was for a few hours, not more.
Q Situation Report No. 86, dated the 17 of September 1941 indicates that a caravan of Jews were shot in Novo Ukrainka and vicinity. Did that ever come to your attention?
A Is that Document No. 3151, Your Honor?
Q That is right. Did that ever come to your attention? AOK 17 with the Liaison Officer Hayer. I only stayed at Novo Ukrainka a few hours and I never heard anything about that. Jews, and perhaps even Jews in vehicles, while travelling, were suddenly fallen upon and exterminated, and, if that be true, it would certainly create an incident which would at the least cause conversation, but that never came to your attention, you say?
A No, Your Honor. I never heard about this.
Q What was your attitude generally regarding the Jews? not hostile, at no time. In my home town, there were about 12 to 13 Jewish families living. who were all respected citizens and I had a partly personal contact which I maintained with these people, and I certainly respected them. the SD, is that correct?
Q Yes, Then how did you rejoin? What were the circumstances which brought you back into the SS, briefly? There was no other possibility. I had to work in the program of the SD. Then the Personnel Department Chief told me, "Comrade Graf, you used to be a member of the General SS. Make an application, then you will receive your former number," and that is what I did.
Q Well, if you had not applied, what would have happened?
A Nothing would have changed, Your Honor. I would still have been on an emergency appointment in the SD. Nothing would have changed. voluntarily or not. I would not have rejoined the SS, never, because I was a businessman, and did not want to have anything to do with the Party and its formations.
Q I don't quite follow you. I asked you, if you had not rejoined what would have happened to you. Did you rejoin voluntarily or were you compelled to rejoin? That is what I am trying to ascertain.
out the application. I filled in all the family papers and documents, but you could not call it "voluntarily," because it became untomatic. The Personnel Departmental Chief could see from my documents that I used to be a member of the SS, so he said, "Of course, in that case you have to rejoin the SS." Therefore I made out the application, but, if I had not been deferred to the SD, I would never have rejoined the SS. After all, I had left the SS and also I did not rejoin the General SS, but I was transferred to the special formation, the SD. After all, this was on the war emergency status. In my opinion then, it was merely a formal matter to regain my former SS number. if you had not filled out these forms, that you would have been called anyway?
A May I call the attention of Your Honors to one fact: The proof, that I did so through the interference of my Department Chief is the fact that in January I was drafted on an emergency status and only on 28 July, I believe I made out the application; only after I had spoken on various occasions to my Department Chief, he got me there so I would make out the application. If it had been done immediately, the date would not have been the 28th of July, but perhaps the 2nd or 4th or 6th of January, 1940. May I point out to your Honor this is evident in my personal file, which is in Document Book III-C, NO-4801, Ex. 147. had not made out this application, would you still have been called? called at a previous date, or, at least, before I made out this repapplication. This was only an action I took afterwards and this became necessary after the war emergency status. was a mere form?
I think it is on page 3 of the original, it says, "Kempten Scheldow, the 26th of July, 1940." That is a few months after my war emergency status became effective. That is several months after the war emergency draft.
Q. Where were you when the war came to an end?
A. I was in Kaufbauren, and my section chief ordered me to report to the nearest Army unit, which I did. I was detailed to an infantry division which was in Jungholz or, at least, in the vicinity of Jungholz. That was approximately the 24th of April, 1945.
Q. Witness, did you ever witness an execution?
A. No, Your Honor.
Q. Did you ever see the preparations for an execution?
A. Well, Your Honor, if you call the lining up of men a preparation, then in that case, it is so, but otherwise, I never saw any.
Q. The lining up of men, did you say?
A. Yes, yes. The lining up of men.
Q. You mean the lining up of the firing squad?
A. No, Your Honor, at the garrison of the kommando the men had to line up.
Q. You mean, merely the assembly of soldiers?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Well, that of course, would have nothing to do with the actual mission; but did you know that when they were assembled, that when they were lining up, that they were about to depart on an execution mission?
A. Well in individual cases I knew that, Your Honor.
Q. And in any of those cases, did you know that they were destined to shoot great numbers of people?
A. No, Your Honor, I did not know that in any case.
Q. You travelled a great deal and numerous executions occurred during the time that you were a member of this kommando and during the time that you were travelling as evidenced by these reports. Now, doesn't it seem a little strange that in all your travelling that you never came upon an execution, never came upon one while it was actually in COURT II CASE IX progress nor just before it took place, nor just immediately after it had occurred.
Now can you explain that phenomenon?
A. Your Honor, what my comrades told me was that an execution for reasons of security, would not be carried out on the roads or in public squares or near villages. This may be the reason that I did not happen to witness an execution either.
Q. Witness, you see squads of men lined up ready to march off to an execution. You are aware of the fact that that is their mission - and you must have been there or you couldn't have seen them - Now wouldn't natural curiosity cause you to inquire as to where they were going and what they were going to do and whom they were going to shoot and how many?
A. Your Honor, the only person who might have been able to give information about this was the commanding officer and I, as a noncommissioned officer, could not have approached him and I could have said, "Excuse me, Herr Untersturmfuehrer, where are you going to and what are you going to do?" I couldn't do that and I am quite honest when I tell you, Your Honor, I was not interested in these things.
Q. Did you see any of the aquads that went out on any of these missions which are reported here?
A. As I have already told you, Your Honor, I only know from the events mentioned in the documents, what I have said about Dnepropetrovsk and I can't say that I know that at this and this locality on this and tills, day that men were assembled and assigned for executions.
Q. Who made out the reports of executions for the kommando to the group?
A. In Einsatzkommando 6 there was a Department Chief IV, who was responsible for all executive reports. He made COURT II CASE IX out these reports and then passed them on to the kommando chief.
Q. Did Seibert make up any reports of this character?
A. Your Honor, I cannot tell you anything about this, because Seibert was in an entirely different Einsatzgruppe.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: He was Chief of Einsatzgruppe D.
Q. (By the President) Yes, Well, we know that it was a different Einsatzgruppe, but it belonged to the same department. You and Seibert belonged to the same department, Department III, and as a matter of custom and a matter of routine, did your department make up reports on executions, because that is what Seibert said?
A. May I then point out one thing? Seibert was in the staff of Einsatzgruppe D, in the group staff. I was in Einsatzkommando C-6, a Department Chief. The position of the Co-Defendant Seibert, as a Chief of Department III, is an entirely different one from my position as an NCO, a noncomissioned officer in an Einsatzkommando. My task was to collect news and reports, to write them down, and to pass them on to the kommando chief.
Q. Well would you say that your position in the kommando corresponds to the position, to the same position in the Gruppe and, if so, if Seibert would report an execution from the Gruppe, belonging to Department III, why wouldn't you in Department III of the Kommando make similar reports?
A. Your Honor, I should like to point out that Seibert, after all, was a Standartenfuehrer. Furthermore, he was Chief III of Einsatzgruppe D and, as such, he dealt exclusively with SD reports which he compiled and passed on to Berlin.
Q. Yes, but we are not asking you if you made reports to Berlin, whether you made reports to your Gruppe, your COURT II CASE IX Einsatzgruppe Headquarters.
A. Your Honors, in our kommando, the entire reports were made by the Kommando Chief. He was the only one to decide what part of my material, I had reported, was going to the Group and he had the responsibility for the entire report of the kommando, Your Honor. Furthermore, the difference between Einsatzgruppe C and D is, as far as I heard here, that Einsatzgruppe C had a Chief of Department IV, but not in D, so that these matters of reporting -- that is what I wanted to say -- went into one channel.
Q. Well then it didn't always happen that the departments in the kommandos and the gruppen were entirely isolated from each other. It did happen at times that their duties overlapped and mingled?
A. I do not know how it was in the case of other kommandos, Your Honor, but with our own kommando it was thus that the spheres of activity were separated. Department IV dealt with executive matters. III deals with Reports, I and II with personnel matters and supply.
Q. You just indicated that in Group D that Department III took over many of the duties of Department IV.
A. That is not what I wanted to say, Your Honor. What I wanted to say, Your Honor, was that there was no Department Chief of Department IV in Einsatzgruppe D, who otherwise would have passed on the reports concerning executive matters, and therefore, this all went into one channel, the whole material.
Q. We recall, Witness, that various defendants, and Schubert, particularly because he testified very recently, indicated that executions occurred near roads, near highways; in fact, it became necessary to block off these roads so that the public would be entirely excluded from the executions, COURT II CASE IX so we came back to your proposition that it was impossible for you to witness an execution because they were never near roads and they were always in very isolated sections.
