DR. DURCHHOLZ: Your Honor, I had asked for these witnesses some time ago.
THE PRESIDENT: I have said it -- it is no fault of yours; Dr. Durchholz.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Your Honors, as far as the submission of my documents is concerned, I have just heard before that my document book one, in the English language, has been given to the prosecution. Since I want to submit Document Book 2, I consider it useful to submit the two document books together at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: It might be interesting to known Dr. Durchholz, that submitting your document book to the prosecution is not quite enough. The Tribunal should get a chance to look at it, too. We have not received it.
Mr. Hochwald, do you have any further questions of the witness?
DR. HOCHWALD: The prosecution has no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Just a question or two.
DR. HEIM (for the defendant Blobel): BY DR. HEIM: detachment leaders made up reports and that these reports always went to Einsatzkommando 5. Can you tell me from your own knowledge whether this channel of reporting was used also in the other Einsatzkommandos and Special Commandos? but during my cross examination I think I told the prosecutor that it could have been possible that they took a shorter way, especially with the difficult communication in Russia. How the other Einsatzkommandos regulated their channels, I don't know. There was no SOP about this channel.
Q witness, now the last question. Thus you cannot claim, if I understand you correctly, that this channel of reporting, as you have described it this morning for Einsatzkommando 5, also was used for the Special Commando 4?
DR. HEIM: Thank you. I have no further questions. BY THE PRESIDENT: officers school sent, generally?
A You mean the pupils of the school for executive service? normally they didn't get any assignment after the school. The usual courses were taken in that school: the training courses for criminal commissars for the State Police, and for the criminal police. These training courses were prescribed. After a training course was completed an examination had to be passed, and promotion depended on the passing of the examination, according to the Reich regulations. came to your school for extra instruction?
A No, your Honor, they were not officers on an assignment; the men who came to my school were no officers as yet. They were officer candidates. They were taken from the agencies of the whole Reich and were ordered to the school if they were up for promotion. The course lasted 9 months. After completion of this course, and after the passing of the examination -- if somebody failed, it, without this examination -they wont back to their old agencies. while they were at your school? of this course. the official attitude of the Reich government towards the Jews?
way, nothing was said in this course. The ideological training only saw to it that everyone was informed of the developments of the Nazi party and about the career of the Fuehrer. Party, certainly something was said about the Jewish problem, was it not?
A I don't think so, your Honor. This was a special school. The education of human beings as such in their daily duties was a matter for their own agencies to take care of. I may emphasize expressly that in this school no education for hatred or contempt for any people ever took place.
Socialist party insofar as it concerns the Jaws, a program of hatred and contempt? Reich government thought of the Jewish problem, since it did not involve hatred and contempt? an ideological or religious nature is discussed in detail: but there was no time for that at that school: nor were there any qualified teachers to deal with the questions. I may say that I, as commander of the school, would have hardly been in a position to give a survey of the history of the Jewish people. lasted 9 months, although you were training men to act for the Reich in various fields of security work, and that although the Jewish problem was a major problem in the Reich, and although there was this specific order from the Fuehrer that the Jews in the occupied territories ware to be executed - at any rate, to be placed under observation -- that in spite of all that, not a word was said about the Jewish situation in the instruction of these students in your school? question when discussing legislation, but any type of educational questions which immediately touched upon the Jewish problem were not discussed in this school.
Q I understand that you taught chivalry. Now, just what did this course in chivalry consist of? What were the students instructed to do along chivalrous lines? them a survey of their duties as future leaders. Among these duties I included an appeal to humanity and chivalry. I demanded of every single one that he set a good example, and that his conduct always he such that he could answer for it to himself; that, above all, he should never make demands of other people which he could not perform himself.
could always answer for it to himself. Was he ever instructed that he should conduct himself in such a way that he should give answer to a Supreme Being? leaving your school?
Q Were they trained and qualified to enter Einsatzkommandos? Einsatzkommando, did not take place in the school at all. for an Einsatzcommando job, either, but you were sent to one. I am asking if the graduates of your school would be amendable for assignment to Einsatzkommandos. entered into the execution of the Fuehrer Order in an Einsatzkommando, could they have executed that order, as it was sent down through the line of command, and yet have been faithful to the code of chivalry which you instructed them on? It was not valid for the entire time--could one execute that order and yet be true to the code of chivalry which you taught in your school?
A Your Honor, that is difficult to answer. This was an order which people had to obey.
Q I don't know why it is difficult to answer. You taught chivalry. You volunteered that. No one asked you. You said you taught students chivalry, and these students, just like all other graduates of army schools, could be subjected to the Fuehrer Order; and they are now in the field, and they have this order to go out and execute, and they remember your code of chivalry. Can they execute the order and still be true to this coda of chivalry?
Q Then you feel disinclined to answer? right explanation. I now put myself in the situation of a man who has been obediently educated. I can imagine that the feeling for gallantry as such would not be destroyed by the fact that a harsh order must be followed -- but may I make the following explanation. If I take the fact that the enemy in Russia carried on a very severe war, and thereby challenged such harsh measures on the other side -thus, if the measures of the enemy are declared as unchivalrous, then I don't think it is up to me to designate my own measures as such. population because Russia had not lived up to the code of chivalry. Is that what you are telling us?
A Your Honor, that is very difficult. One has to consider the concept of morality and law. I am not enough of a philosopher to analyze the concept of morality, and I am not enough of a jurist to define the concept of law; but if my morality is equivalent to guilt, then it is very difficult to say - for the gruesome war raged through the years - if this whole war was immoral, then the Fuehrer Order as a part of this war, is also immoral. But I cannot get myself to claim that. in what was done.
people. had been massacred, and as a reprisal measure certain individuals were taken into custody and executed. Is that correct?
A Yes, arrests were made, and executions were ordered; yes. massacre of Jews. Hadn't the German forces themselves executed Poles in Poland?
A I don't know that, your Honor. numbers - hundreds of thousands - of Poles were executed... you don't know that? learning that Poles had been massacred by the Russians, you believed that the order to conduct the reprisal was based upon the revulsion on the part of the German forces against the execution of helpless Poles?
Q Yes, perhaps it Was a little involved. During the Polish invasion, Poles were executed merely because they were Poles. Documents indicate that that actually happened. The German forces executed Poles, civilians. Now, it seems strange that since the German forces, when they were allied with the Russian forces, executed Poles, that they would suddenly demand reprisals because Poles had been executed by the Russians.
A Your Horror, I can only say this one thing. I don't know the detailed circumstances of this order. I merely had to accept the fact that here the Fuehrer had ordered reprisals, but German Wehrmacht soldiers had also been killed, and I also would like to point out the fact that in the Polish campaign, Germans had also been murdered before. What the connections are here, and what caused the head of the State to give this order, I just don't know.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, I think that covers it. The Marshall will return the defendant to the defendants' dock. Dr. Schwarz for the defendant, Jost, are you ready to proceed?
Dr. SCHWARZ: Yes. Dr. SCHWARZ for the defendant Jost.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
HEINZ JOST, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may I please begin with the direct examination of the defendant Jost.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY DR. SCHWARZ: person?
A My name is Heinz Jost. I was born on 9 July 1904 in Molzhausen, District of Marburg. I am the oldest of three brothers. The next brother is a druggist, and the youngest is a physician. I am married and have one child.
Q What were your parents, witness? Hessen. Both parents come from families of officials.
Q In what manner were you educated in your parent's home?
accordingly. Both parents were Catholics. and my mother was very devout. My parents tried to give me the traditional upbringing of a decent, honest and respected citizen,and they chose for me an academic career. they? who educated us to do our duty, to be just and honest, and to love the Fatherland and its people. In his political opinion he was a liberal and democrat, and before and after the first World War he was active in the Democratic Party. Later on, disappointed about the development, in Germany, he joined the Nazi Party.
Q What education did you have?
Q And what came after that? in Benzheim Hessen.
Q How did you education proceed after that? 1923 to 1927. I attended the University at Giessen, and I spent one term at Munich. I completed my studies in the Spring of 1927, and passed my Bar Examination. career?
A I spent this time in the District Court of Darmstadt; at the District Court and at the office of the Landrat, with a lawyer, and with the Labor Court.
Q Did you pass the assessor examination, if so, when and where? the Assessor examination, that is, the State examination, and was with the Hessen District Court in Darmstadt until the end of 1930.
a part in your political development? for my political development, the experience of the First World War. the loss of that war, and the post-war years, awakened my interest in all questions concerned with my Fatherland. During my time as a student, I was very active in sports, and in this activity I met people from all classes, especially from the working class. I got to know the people very early in my life, whom I would not have met otherwise. I not only got to know these people from the working class, as honest and decent people, but I also gained insight into their needs and their worries. I saw and recognized their economic position; their primitive and modest living conditions. In other words, I came to grips with the social problems of our time through personal knowledge. Above all, I saw, outside of this material distress, that this German worker held a position outside of his people, and was not considered as a full member of the people. One even denied him his human dignity. After I had entered the University, I joined a student organization, and here I got to know the bourgeois life from which I myself came, but into which I now gained more of an insight. I saw the social exclusiveness, the so-called narrow attitude and narrowmindedness, and conceit of the bourgeois himself. During that time I became conscious of a deep rift within the German people, that there were actually two classes who speak the same language, but who were actually foreign to each other, and could not speak to each other on the same terms. This condition occupied my mind very much without my knowing how it could be changed. Around that time I became acquainted with the philosophy of the Nazi Party.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Schwarz, would you want to suspend now for the afternoon recess, and then take it up immediately after we reconvene?
DR. SCHWARZ: Yes, Your Honor.
The PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr. Hochwald.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I would like to make a correction. I offered this morning NO-4957, and by mistake gave it is Document No. 176.
THE PRESIDENT: Exhibit number, you mean?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Exhibit No. 176. It should be, Your Honors, Exhibit 177, as Exhibit 176 was reserved for one of the two documents which were handed to Naumann in cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Your statement will be sufficient to make the correction on the record.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Thank you, Your Honor.
DR. ULMER: Defense counsel, Dr. Ulmer, for the Defendant Dr. Six. not finish what I had in mind for the preparation of his case. I would be very grateful to you if the Defendant Six will be freed from session tomorrow morning as well.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Six will be excused from attendance in Court tomorrow morning in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. MAYER: Dr. Mayer for the Defendant Braune. morrow morning for the preparation of his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Braune will be excused in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may I proceed with the examination of the Defendant Jost?
THE PRESIDENT: Please do. BY DR. SCHWARZ:
Q Mr. Witness, we talked about your entry into the NSDAP. When did you join the NSDAP and in what manner?
AAt the beginning of 1928 I joined the NSDAP. At that time there was no large organization of any kind. There were only a few members of the Party in those days.
Everybody did want he thought he had to do. The political activity mainly consisted of spreading of propaganda, distribution of papers, pamphlets and leaflets and in eager discussions between individuals, discussing politics with men and women who were of other opinions, and with the attempt of trying to convince others of the justifiability of their political opinions. Only in later years, that was in 1930 and 1931, the first organizations or organizational outlines started. At some periods I had the office of a cashier or as a local administrator, or sometimes I was in charge of propaganda, according to whatever the office was doing. because of my professional career I could not become active in this unit. Definitely I joined the SA in 1931. I joined the SA as a simple soldier. I was promoted automatically and when I joined the SD in 1934 I had the rank of an Obersturmbannfuehrer. In 1935 I was promoted SS Hauptsturmbannfuehrer; in 1936 I became a Standartenfuehrer; in 1937 I became an Oberfuehrer and in 1939 I became a Brigadefuehrer. state examination, I settled in Lorsch which is in Hessen, which is the country I come from, as a lawyer. I stayed there in this profession for about two years, and in the middle of March 1933, as requested by the Hessen Government, I took over the police office in Worms. From autumn 1933 to March 1934 I was in charge of the police office in Giessen.
Q What was the reason for your leaving the police? Government, I had to carry out measures of the SA so that I felt that I should ask to be relieved and to look for another job in Berlin.
Q And what job came in question when you went to Berlin?
Labor Front, totake part in the new foundation of a re-settlement section. This was a department in which I could develop my social political interests, but this department was actually never founded, and at that time, it was in the summer of 1934, I became acquainted for the first time with the SD.
Q How did your joining the SD come about? saw many things that one liked very much but many things also that one did not like. This new authoritarian state had not created any possibility until then to improve on shortcomings and mistakes or to create a Possibility to abolish them or to contribute toward their abolishment. Thus it seemed to me that there should be an organizetion which should be created to be prepared, without any individual interest, to deal with all features of the public life - negative or positive - and to report about the results of this work to the competent legal authorities, without serving their own interests in any executive capacity whatsoever. This organization seemed to me most welcome, or at least an organization of that kind seemed to me most welcome. As model for this activity the British Secret Service would serve in which each individual Englishman, in fulfilling his national duty, had to takepart as a matter of course, without having the actual feeling to be an agent or to do something dishonorable . Such, on a voluntary basis, by cooperation of honorary members this organization was to be built up. This ideology agreed with my own opinions, and therefore, I decided to join this young organization.
Q Is this question answered then, Witness?
Q What was your actual activity in the SD until 1939? to have no contact and nothing to do with the activity which I just described. I was given the task to create an counter-intelligence In the German language "Abwehr" is an organization which has as its task to find out and to explore activities of foreign information within the German Reich,territory.
Until this point there were in German two agencies which dealt with this task; the one was the Count intelligence Department of the Wehrmacht and the other was the Counter Intelligence Department of the Gestapo, the Secret State Police. The first was mainly dealing with military matters in counter-intelligence questions and the protection of military objects, while the Counter-Intelligence Department of the Secret State Police worked within the framework of general police matters and had as its task to clarify cases of espionnage and to search for perpetrators with the usual general police means. These two organizations did not seem by any means sufficient in order to create enough security to protect the country against foreign enemy agents and this was to be the new field of activities of the new SD with its own means and its own possibilities. The SD was to be installed as a third organization and its main tasks were to be the following: foreign information services in general, that is, as far as it was possible, to study their histories and organizations, and manner of working, their methods and distribution of tasks and such matters. Furthermore, there was the task to build up a preventative counter-intelligence; that is, by Instituting a network of voluntary workers and collaborators to make it difficult for the foreign intelligence service to work; that is, to carry out measures which were suited to protect military objects and others exposed to sabotage against enemy activity. to the setting up of various subsidiary organizations, especially in industry, such as protective institutions, plant security institutions, and similar things, without actually creating on actual uniform schedule of organization.
The measures themselves were carried out by the Economic and Labor Offices who were interested in this whereas the SD worked in an advisory capacity. the Reich Security Main Office? intelligence activity in the SD discontinued in Autumn 1939. The organization was dissolved and the tasks on the whole were redistributed according to the now re-organization and were given over to the Secret State Police. I had taken part in the Staff of the Third Army as chief of the Civil Administration, in the middle of October, 1939, I was entrusted with the leadership of the newly established Office VI within the RSHA. Plans for the creation of a foreign intelligence service and information service in foreign countries were not new then, but until that point, or, practically until the outbreak of the war, they had got stuck and were only be put into practice when Office VI was established. As the Office III of the Reich Main Security Office, that is, the SD for German territory, to deal with the general reporting about all spheres within the Reich and to organize such a service, thus, in the same summer, Office VI had the task by reporting from foreign countries to get information which was to be made available to all the Reich Offices. The building up of this young organization was very difficult during the war when the borders were closed and there were Eastern and Western front lines. Personnel and material were lacking so that in the first month of the young office our main task consisted of keeping up with the organizational work and catching up with the work which had not been done during peace time.
After months, that is about in Spring, 1940, the basic organizational work had been concluded and the reporting activities concerning all foreign countries could begin. Even here the basic rule was adhered that the whole work should only be performed with the help of honorable collaborators and no care was taken that the collaborators in question should be a member of the SS or a Party member, but the main question was to find collaborators who were able to see and judge conditions and happenings in other countries with good common sense.
Q Witness, who was your chief at that time? after Office VI was formed, was the Chief of the RSHA, Heydrich. Security Main Office? the beginning of September, 1941; that is, until that point I held office in the RSHA.
Q What were the reasons for your leaving the RSHA then? political information service, independent from other offices of the RSHA, and knowingly independent from the Gestapo, the Secret State Police was met with quite some resistance on the part of Gruppenfuehrer Mueller who was the Chief of this office. This man, whom I just mentioned as well as Heydrich had visualized on entirely different development when the RSHA and Office VI had been initiated. Especially Mueller had believed then that the SD and the young Office VI could be regarded as a sort of Information Service for his own office
THE PRESIDENT: May I interrupt please? Mr. Heath, I would like to ask you a question.
MR. HEATH: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you charging the present defendant with criminality insofar as his membership, or, activity, rather, in the RSHA is concerned? Are there any specific offenses which allegedly have been committed by him in the RSHA aside from being a member of the SS organization?
MR. HEATH: If your Honor please, I'd better call on Mr. Clancy who knows. I don't know.
MR. GLANCY: NO, sir, this is only a collateral issue. The only significance in that is the fact that AMT VI, which the witness has just mentioned as being their foreign counter-intelligence service as found by the SMT, was part of the SD, but what we are mentioning here is only a collateral issue to what we have brought here.
THE PRESIDENT: This background, Dr. Schwarz, is, of course, important. A general picture is always important. A general background is naturally important, but I am wondering whether it is necessary to go into so much detail.
DR. SCHWARZ: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. I believe that it will be possible that the defendant could cut this a little shorter, but it seems that he wants to express his opinion as to his relations to Chief Mueller, because it is most important for his later activity and for the relationship to Heydrich, but I would like to ask the defendant to make it a little shorter perhaps.
THE PRESIDENT: In view of what you have said, it becomes obvious that what he is talking about is relevant and important.
I might make this observation: That since we have been sitting here, our greatest difficulty with witnesses has been that they speak too rapidly. Now this present defendant is a refreshing contradiction to that, in that he speaks slowly, and I am just hoping that we don't all go to sleep, because of the very leisurely manner in which he is testifying. Perhaps he might speed it up just a little bit.
Dr. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I have already told the defendant that he could speak a little faster. I think he will do it during the further course of his examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. of the RSHA. Please make a statement as to how far you went in the RSHA. to change the Office VI into an Information Service which would serve the Gestapo, the Secret State Police, was not complied with by myself. In my view Office VI was to be an agency which must by all means be independent and must be an agency to serve all offices and agencies of the Reich and all leadership offices, with information supply as it would become necessary -- such an agency must not be supported or dependent from one office, especially not from a political police.