DR. SCHWARZ: Yes, Your Honor.
The PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr. Hochwald.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I would like to make a correction. I offered this morning NO-4957, and by mistake gave it is Document No. 176.
THE PRESIDENT: Exhibit number, you mean?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Exhibit No. 176. It should be, Your Honors, Exhibit 177, as Exhibit 176 was reserved for one of the two documents which were handed to Naumann in cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Your statement will be sufficient to make the correction on the record.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Thank you, Your Honor.
DR. ULMER: Defense counsel, Dr. Ulmer, for the Defendant Dr. Six. not finish what I had in mind for the preparation of his case. I would be very grateful to you if the Defendant Six will be freed from session tomorrow morning as well.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Six will be excused from attendance in Court tomorrow morning in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. MAYER: Dr. Mayer for the Defendant Braune. morrow morning for the preparation of his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Braune will be excused in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may I proceed with the examination of the Defendant Jost?
THE PRESIDENT: Please do. BY DR. SCHWARZ:
Q Mr. Witness, we talked about your entry into the NSDAP. When did you join the NSDAP and in what manner?
AAt the beginning of 1928 I joined the NSDAP. At that time there was no large organization of any kind. There were only a few members of the Party in those days.
Everybody did want he thought he had to do. The political activity mainly consisted of spreading of propaganda, distribution of papers, pamphlets and leaflets and in eager discussions between individuals, discussing politics with men and women who were of other opinions, and with the attempt of trying to convince others of the justifiability of their political opinions. Only in later years, that was in 1930 and 1931, the first organizations or organizational outlines started. At some periods I had the office of a cashier or as a local administrator, or sometimes I was in charge of propaganda, according to whatever the office was doing. because of my professional career I could not become active in this unit. Definitely I joined the SA in 1931. I joined the SA as a simple soldier. I was promoted automatically and when I joined the SD in 1934 I had the rank of an Obersturmbannfuehrer. In 1935 I was promoted SS Hauptsturmbannfuehrer; in 1936 I became a Standartenfuehrer; in 1937 I became an Oberfuehrer and in 1939 I became a Brigadefuehrer. state examination, I settled in Lorsch which is in Hessen, which is the country I come from, as a lawyer. I stayed there in this profession for about two years, and in the middle of March 1933, as requested by the Hessen Government, I took over the police office in Worms. From autumn 1933 to March 1934 I was in charge of the police office in Giessen.
Q What was the reason for your leaving the police? Government, I had to carry out measures of the SA so that I felt that I should ask to be relieved and to look for another job in Berlin.
Q And what job came in question when you went to Berlin?
Labor Front, totake part in the new foundation of a re-settlement section. This was a department in which I could develop my social political interests, but this department was actually never founded, and at that time, it was in the summer of 1934, I became acquainted for the first time with the SD.
Q How did your joining the SD come about? saw many things that one liked very much but many things also that one did not like. This new authoritarian state had not created any possibility until then to improve on shortcomings and mistakes or to create a Possibility to abolish them or to contribute toward their abolishment. Thus it seemed to me that there should be an organizetion which should be created to be prepared, without any individual interest, to deal with all features of the public life - negative or positive - and to report about the results of this work to the competent legal authorities, without serving their own interests in any executive capacity whatsoever. This organization seemed to me most welcome, or at least an organization of that kind seemed to me most welcome. As model for this activity the British Secret Service would serve in which each individual Englishman, in fulfilling his national duty, had to takepart as a matter of course, without having the actual feeling to be an agent or to do something dishonorable . Such, on a voluntary basis, by cooperation of honorary members this organization was to be built up. This ideology agreed with my own opinions, and therefore, I decided to join this young organization.
Q Is this question answered then, Witness?
Q What was your actual activity in the SD until 1939? to have no contact and nothing to do with the activity which I just described. I was given the task to create an counter-intelligence In the German language "Abwehr" is an organization which has as its task to find out and to explore activities of foreign information within the German Reich,territory.
Until this point there were in German two agencies which dealt with this task; the one was the Count intelligence Department of the Wehrmacht and the other was the Counter Intelligence Department of the Gestapo, the Secret State Police. The first was mainly dealing with military matters in counter-intelligence questions and the protection of military objects, while the Counter-Intelligence Department of the Secret State Police worked within the framework of general police matters and had as its task to clarify cases of espionnage and to search for perpetrators with the usual general police means. These two organizations did not seem by any means sufficient in order to create enough security to protect the country against foreign enemy agents and this was to be the new field of activities of the new SD with its own means and its own possibilities. The SD was to be installed as a third organization and its main tasks were to be the following: foreign information services in general, that is, as far as it was possible, to study their histories and organizations, and manner of working, their methods and distribution of tasks and such matters. Furthermore, there was the task to build up a preventative counter-intelligence; that is, by Instituting a network of voluntary workers and collaborators to make it difficult for the foreign intelligence service to work; that is, to carry out measures which were suited to protect military objects and others exposed to sabotage against enemy activity. to the setting up of various subsidiary organizations, especially in industry, such as protective institutions, plant security institutions, and similar things, without actually creating on actual uniform schedule of organization.
The measures themselves were carried out by the Economic and Labor Offices who were interested in this whereas the SD worked in an advisory capacity. the Reich Security Main Office? intelligence activity in the SD discontinued in Autumn 1939. The organization was dissolved and the tasks on the whole were redistributed according to the now re-organization and were given over to the Secret State Police. I had taken part in the Staff of the Third Army as chief of the Civil Administration, in the middle of October, 1939, I was entrusted with the leadership of the newly established Office VI within the RSHA. Plans for the creation of a foreign intelligence service and information service in foreign countries were not new then, but until that point, or, practically until the outbreak of the war, they had got stuck and were only be put into practice when Office VI was established. As the Office III of the Reich Main Security Office, that is, the SD for German territory, to deal with the general reporting about all spheres within the Reich and to organize such a service, thus, in the same summer, Office VI had the task by reporting from foreign countries to get information which was to be made available to all the Reich Offices. The building up of this young organization was very difficult during the war when the borders were closed and there were Eastern and Western front lines. Personnel and material were lacking so that in the first month of the young office our main task consisted of keeping up with the organizational work and catching up with the work which had not been done during peace time.
After months, that is about in Spring, 1940, the basic organizational work had been concluded and the reporting activities concerning all foreign countries could begin. Even here the basic rule was adhered that the whole work should only be performed with the help of honorable collaborators and no care was taken that the collaborators in question should be a member of the SS or a Party member, but the main question was to find collaborators who were able to see and judge conditions and happenings in other countries with good common sense.
Q Witness, who was your chief at that time? after Office VI was formed, was the Chief of the RSHA, Heydrich. Security Main Office? the beginning of September, 1941; that is, until that point I held office in the RSHA.
Q What were the reasons for your leaving the RSHA then? political information service, independent from other offices of the RSHA, and knowingly independent from the Gestapo, the Secret State Police was met with quite some resistance on the part of Gruppenfuehrer Mueller who was the Chief of this office. This man, whom I just mentioned as well as Heydrich had visualized on entirely different development when the RSHA and Office VI had been initiated. Especially Mueller had believed then that the SD and the young Office VI could be regarded as a sort of Information Service for his own office
THE PRESIDENT: May I interrupt please? Mr. Heath, I would like to ask you a question.
MR. HEATH: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you charging the present defendant with criminality insofar as his membership, or, activity, rather, in the RSHA is concerned? Are there any specific offenses which allegedly have been committed by him in the RSHA aside from being a member of the SS organization?
MR. HEATH: If your Honor please, I'd better call on Mr. Clancy who knows. I don't know.
MR. GLANCY: NO, sir, this is only a collateral issue. The only significance in that is the fact that AMT VI, which the witness has just mentioned as being their foreign counter-intelligence service as found by the SMT, was part of the SD, but what we are mentioning here is only a collateral issue to what we have brought here.
THE PRESIDENT: This background, Dr. Schwarz, is, of course, important. A general picture is always important. A general background is naturally important, but I am wondering whether it is necessary to go into so much detail.
DR. SCHWARZ: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. I believe that it will be possible that the defendant could cut this a little shorter, but it seems that he wants to express his opinion as to his relations to Chief Mueller, because it is most important for his later activity and for the relationship to Heydrich, but I would like to ask the defendant to make it a little shorter perhaps.
THE PRESIDENT: In view of what you have said, it becomes obvious that what he is talking about is relevant and important.
I might make this observation: That since we have been sitting here, our greatest difficulty with witnesses has been that they speak too rapidly. Now this present defendant is a refreshing contradiction to that, in that he speaks slowly, and I am just hoping that we don't all go to sleep, because of the very leisurely manner in which he is testifying. Perhaps he might speed it up just a little bit.
Dr. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I have already told the defendant that he could speak a little faster. I think he will do it during the further course of his examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. of the RSHA. Please make a statement as to how far you went in the RSHA. to change the Office VI into an Information Service which would serve the Gestapo, the Secret State Police, was not complied with by myself. In my view Office VI was to be an agency which must by all means be independent and must be an agency to serve all offices and agencies of the Reich and all leadership offices, with information supply as it would become necessary -- such an agency must not be supported or dependent from one office, especially not from a political police.
21 Oct 1947-A_MSD_25_1_Arminger (Hildesheimer) and from this opposition open discussions about the field of tasks resulted, and during the further months and years, there were considerable disputes. The reproach that Office VI was of no importance whatsoever to Office IV, for instance, was of course supposted by me, and there was also the reproach that the work of Office VI was not in the interest of the Secret State Police. There was a reproach of separatism or sabotage. There was also the reproach that the office was politically unreliable and other such reproaches eventually lead to the fact that one day Office VI received no further funds for its activity. It was said it was of no further value to the Secret Police. in the opinion and in the attitude of Heydrich and Mueller and in the lack of understanding of an independent unpolitical information service. All these disputes made successful work in Office VI impossible when eventually at last it came to Heydrich using political reasons, asking which in fact I could not fullfill. He reproached nor or at least he requested me to divorce my wife because she was not a National Socialist and if I was not capable of taking care of my wife, who was not a National Socialist, I would not be capable of taking care of my office, so I asked to be relieved of my office. tht is, until the end of the organization, by the end of August 1941, I was transferred to the Ministry East, which I had not asked for, that is, at least I did not select the Ministry East myself. I was transferred there without my having asked for it.
Q Were you still paid by the Reich Security Main Office? RSHA. At the same time, according to my war service, I was also a part of the Security Police as the Ministry East could not immediately create a position for me.
21 Oct 1947-A_MSD_25_2_Arminger (Hildesheimer)
Q What happened when you were relieved from the RSHA? vacant for me in the Ministry East, and waited for such a position.
Q Did Heydrich at any time offer you a position? Ministry East, Heydrich attempted on two occasions to reinstate me in his sphere of powe , by offering me once a commanding position somewhere, and on another occasion he offered me the position of an SS and Police Leader.
Q Witness, what was your attitude towards these two offers?
A I refused both offers mainly for three reasons. First of all, I was not interested in police questions and I did not think that I was suitable to deal with such Questions. Secondly, under all circumstances. I wanted to Leave this sphere of influence of Heydrich because after all these years of disputes and personal differences I did not feel inclined and I did not have the intention to serve him in any way whatsoever. Only after a transfer to or changing over into another position would it become possible for me to become my own master.
Q How did Heydrich take your refusal?
A Heydrich's basic characteristic was his manial distrust of other people. Thus his offer must be understood. He mustrusted everybody, even his closest collaborator and above all he was afraid of the fact that if one of his close collaborators transferred to another agency that he might become dangerous. When, therefore, he regretted having suggested to have me released for the Ministry East and he attempted to get me back,or at least, he made such proposals to me. My hope, however, was to remain in charge of an administrative office or department which would have been well in accordance with my personal inclination. your relations with Heydrich would ever become more severe?
21 Oct 1947_A_MSD_23_3_Arminger (Hildesheimer) did not do any thing at all to abolish the difficulties which had thus been created. sent on an information tour.
A Yes, that is true. In February of 1942, I received a letter then from the Chief of Office I of the RSHA. That Was Streckenbach, which contained the order for me to report to the Eastern Administration and to go on an information tour to the Eastern Occupied Territories. On the occasion of a discussion I had with Heydrich a few days later, he confirmed this order and he asked me to discuss the actual carrying out of this trip with the Ministry East, which I actually did. your activity in Einsatzgruppe A, as the commander of a SIPO and the SD, Ostland. When and where did the order reach you to take over the leadership of Einsatzkommando A? which began in the beginning of March, 1942, during my stay in Smolensk, in fact, approximately on the 24th of 25th of March, 1942, an order reached me. This order was to the effect that I was to get in touch with the Chief of Einsatzgruppe A; that I was to become Ehief of the Einsatzgruppe North, and the Secuity Police and the SD. Eastern Territories and that any regulations in accordance with this would be made later. This order had been signed by Heydrich. I thus received the order to take over those agencies which until that date had been handled by Stahlegger who had been iklled a few days previously.
Q.- Witness, when you received this order was anybody present?
A.- Yes, when I received this order Sturmbannfuehrer, the then Sturmbannfuehrer Karl Henneke, and my adjutant Gerd Nyhoegen.
Q.- What impression did the receipt of this letter make on you?
A.- It was not only surprising to me, but it was most moving. It was a surprise because after I had been appointed into the Ministry of the East I never counted on an assignment in the sphere of influence, of Heydrich, because I believed that once and for all I had been taken over by another agency, another office, and therefore that a separation from Heydrich had been definite. This hope had been destroyed by the receipt of this letter, but in spite of this I decided to undertake steps for the revocation of such a assignment.
Q.- Did you mention this misgiving to Henneke?
A.- Yes, I mentioned this to Henneke who, as I said, was present at that moment. I told him of my intention, and I told him that I was going to try to go back to Berlin as soon as possible in order to reach Heydrich personally, and thus to have this order revoked, if possible.
Q.- Why were you so interested in having this order revoked?
A.- I have already explained for what reasons I did not want to be entrusted with police work, and for what reasons I did not want to work under the sphere of influence of Heydrich. Before I had received this letter I had a discussion with the above mentioned Henneke, and I had told him that I myself, personally, would not be in a position to carry out execution orders, and it was no sooner said than the teletype arrived which appointed me to a post, where doubtlessly I would come into contact with such orders.
Q.- Witness, how did it come about that you made that remark to Henneke that you would not be able to carry out execution orders? Did Hanneke say anything to you about this?
A.- I had been informed through Henneke of happenings in the Ukraine which overwhelmed me so that I did not know how I could deal with this problem at all.
Q.- Witness, was this order by Heydrich which you had received, binding for you?
A.- The order was signed by Heydrich, as I already said, and I was still paid by the RSHA, my war appointment was to be Chief of the Security Police -- so Heydrich was justified in sending this order to me, and I was under duty to comply with this order.
Q.- Now, what did you do when you received the order?
A.- I had to comply with the order and I went to Riga. There I arrived at the earliest on the 28th of March 1942. I think it must have been a Sunday. On Monday, which was the 29th of March, I took over the office and I immediately telephoned Berlin in order to ask how and where could I get hold of Heydrich. I received information that Heydrich was on the way and he was expected back in Berlin for the week-end. Two or three days later I decided to go to Berlin myself. At the moment of my departure a teletype arrived which announced Heydrich's visit for the very same day. That was either the 31st of March or the 1st of April 1942.
Q.- What urged you to have a discussion with Heydrich?
A.- I was going to try, during that discussion with Heydrich, to have him revoke the order, or at least to give me time to think it over. Furthermore I knew - at least in case he did not withdraw his order, that I would get orders by him, personally. As my questions to the former adjutant of my precedessor Stahlegger concerning orders, especially about the treatment of Jews, were to the effect that such an order had never been received in writing, he told me that this order, before the beginning of the assignment, was given to the chiefs of the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos verbally, and that was the Fuehrer Order which had been carried out by the Einsatzgruppe A.
Q.- Was that order in force at that time, witness?
A.- Yes, the order was at that time in force, although at that point, or at the time before, within the Reich Commissariat of the Eastern territories, that is not in the territory of the Einsatzgruppe but in the territory that had been taken over by the civil administration for reason of labor allocation and assignment or for economical reasons, - for those reasons this order had actually not been carried out completely. Withdrawal of the order had not been received, but the measures were, for the mentioned reasons, not no longer carried out.
Q.- Witness, how did your discussion with Heydrich take place, and what was the result?
A.- If Heydrich's suddent visit was not a surprising fact more it was his behavior, He was most charming, and he behaved in a very kind manner, such as I had not seen in him for many years. He tried in a very cordial manner to discuss all kinds of matters which had nothing to do with the actual question. Obviously, his intention was to get me into a receptive mood in order to say then finally: "Now I have already offered you on various occasions to become a commander. Through the sudden death of Stahlecker we now have the possibility to comply with this wish of mine, and I hope that this new task will be a pleasing one to you. I objected a few times, and gave the reason for my objection, and repeated to him what I had already told him on former occasions, and it was that I was not suitable person for police matters, that I had not counted on a re-employment in his own sphere, that I had innerly separated myself from him and wanted to prepare myself for my future task. I saw it my duty to draw his attention to the fact that he himself, before the start of the Russian campaign, had refused a proposal to employ me in the Eastern assignment, giving the reasons that I was ill and as far as my nerves were concerned, not in a state to take part in such a campaign. Apart from that, when I left the Office VI he had also said that my state of health was such that for this reason alone it would be adequate for me to leave the charge of Office VI.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Schwarz, this might be a good point at which to suspend; and youmight indicate to the witness that after a little spurt of speed he once more dropped back to a somnolent state. You might ask him..... I am sorry .... I merely wanted to say that the witness responded immediately to our suggestion that he increased the speed of delivery, but then he became tired very quickly and once more has dropped back to his rather somnolent delivery. You might tell him this evening to have a good rest and perhaps tomorrow morning he can speak with a little more speed, especially in view of the fact that he already has his material prepared, We don't intend to request that a witness adapt himself to any particular kind of delivery, but I do think he could speak a little more rapidly.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may I say that during these last days the defendant has had much work to do, and has been in a rundown state, because during that time the whole day was spent in the preparation of the defense of the defendant. I think that a quiet night will give the defendant the possibility to comply with the wishes of the Tribunal tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.
DR. KOESSL (for the defendant Ott): I would like to ask the Tribunal to escuse the Defendant Ott tomorrow, as he also has to prepare his defense. Furthermore, I would ask to represent now my colleague Dr. Gawlik to excuse the Defendant Seibert on Wednesday and Thursday, also in order to prepare his case.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendants Ott and Seibert will be excused tomorrow; and Seibert also on Thursday - so that they may confer with their respective counsel in preparing their case for the defense. thirty.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 22 October 1947).
0930 - 1630, Justice Michael A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
DR. SCHWARZ: Dr. Schwartz for the Defendant Jost. the defendant I would like to make a short statement. Evidently Jost was yesterday not in the position any longer to go on with his own case. I have already taken the liberty to put a request in, on the 9th of October, for a medical examination of the Defendant Jost. This request, however, referred to the state of healt of the Defendant Jost at an earlier date. The defendant now tells me that he is afraid he is no longer able to concentrate on his defense after a very short time to the extent which would be necessary to comply with the wishes of the Tribunal and to defend himself in his own case. be feasible to have the Defendant Jost examined, or at least to determine his state of health in order to establish whether he is in a position at the moment to go on with his defense. If the Tribunal believes that it cannot grant this request, I would like to ask the Tribunal to consider the state of health of the Defendant Jost and to bear it in mindin the further development of the defense.
THE PRESIDENT: There is no reason why a physical examination of the defendant may not be had.
DR. SCHWARZ: I do not know, your Honor. As I said, I have made a request in writing on the 9th of October. This request has not yet been ruled on and has not yet been granted.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will immediately instruct the jail physician to conduct a physical examination of the defendant at the first opportunity. In the meantime we will proceed with the examination of the defendant, and there will be no disposition on the part of the Tribunal to cause him to testify in any manner which might in any way interfere with the normal processes of thinking and speaking. increase the tempo of his speaking that for a short while he did, and he seemed to speak very normally and responded quickly and acted as any normal person would. So there is nothing visible to this Tribunal which would suggest that the defendant is not able to conduct his defense here in open court. We will continue in the normal fashion and then perhaps at noontime we can have this physical examination conducted.
DR. SCHWARZ:Yes, your Honor. I appreciate the regard that the Tribunal showed yesterday for this defendant. I agree to the proposal of your Honor, and I shall proceed now with the direct examination of the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed. BY DR. SCHWARZ: conference with Heydrich. The last thing you said was that you had refused Heydrich's offer and that you gave him definite reasons which led you to this refusal. Will you proceed from this point? no longer in the position to fulfill the task which he had meant me to fulfill. These objections were rejected by Heydrich. He told me he had a very good reason why he had come to Riga. He wanted to prove to me that all disputes and difficulties we had had in former times had been forgotten, and he wanted to express thus that I had his confidence.
As to my stating my case, the fact, for instance, that my state of health was not such that I would be able to fulfillthese tasks, he told me, "You are not going to be put in charge of any Einsatz tasks, but you will have the task of a commander, and as I am going to give these tasks to you, you will fulfill them." Further objections on my part he did not accept. After this dispute had taken place in this form for sometime, he came to the conclusion that if indeed I did not want to accept this task permanently, he would have to order me to take over this task temporarily until a definite successor would have been found. At the moment no such commander was at his disposal. I would have to do this for a fewweeks at least. Thus through my resistance I had accomplished that at least I would no definitely be appointed as a commander, or at least not permanently. these tasks, and what your assignment would be, what it would consist of?
A Heydrich said the following: "Your main or your only task will be to act as my representative, and that you should express to the Higher SS and Police Leader and especially to the Reich Commissar, that the Security Police and the SD are willing to collaborate closely with the civil administration. We want to be an integral part of the civil administration, engaged in building up its work, and the foundations are now being laid for a long time to come.
"Stahlegger" who was my predecessor, "has not been able to fulfillthis task. He only dealt with the Einsatzgruppe and the Army. These assignments are only of a temporary nature, and therefore they are no longer very important to me. The Kommandos of the Einsatzgruppen are practically only working for the Army, and they have no tasks in connection with the Security Police." Einsatzgruppe could not be taken over by another leader, because, as he said, there was no commander at his disposal at the moment.