Q. What were your duties there?
A. The task of police chief - when the security endangered it, and anything connected with such tasks, to take measures to secure the security.
Q. Never having been a police chief, I do now know... Can you inform me what those tasks were, specifically?
A. To the sphere of the police...the regular police... belong the Police Revieres distributed through the city, traffic police, criminal police, police dealing with strangers, political police -- those approximately are the tasks.
Q. You included, I believe, criminal police, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. You had stated on direct examination that one of your objections to taking over command in the East was your lack of police experience, am I right?
A. Not lack of experience, but the fact that I did not like to work in the police, and that I was not suitable for it because I think I personally am not suitable for these tasks as would be required.
Q. You were suitable in 1933, weren't you?
A. They considered me to be suited, but I personally was no longer interested in these tasks. That is why I turned to different tasks later on.
Q. In the autumn of 1933 you were in charge of the police office in Giessen and remained there until March 1934. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. You still didn't feel that you were personally suitable to these tasks?
A. In any case, I left there. I could have remained, if I wanted.
Q. In the year 1934 you joined the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. In the same year you joined the SD and were given the task of creating an information and counter intelligence service which had the task of combatting foreign intelligence, agencies, or organizations which might pose a threat to the security of National Socialism, right?
A. You have not formulated it correctly. This organization had to deal with counter intelligence, as I have mentioned, that is, to find out about foreign news service and to prevent them from giving such news. The activity of these news agencies need not be anti-National Socialist first of all, but, of course, they can be antiNational Socialist.
Q. But was it not one of your basic reasons for suppressing this type of thing, - that which might constitute a threat to National Socialism and give it a black eye in other countries?
A. I don't quite know how to answer this question. In every country there are counter intelligence organizations, and every country tries to avoid foreign agencies espionage-I don't See anything particular in this. I think the country would be careless if they did not build up an organization for its protection.
Q. I quite agree with you. But that is not the reason for my question. Wouldn't you say that this task constituted, or rather, was in the nature of a security function also?
A. All questions connected with a foreign news agency, that is, all questions connected to making these activities difficult, or make them impossible, of course,
Q. Thank you. Was this not also in the nature, COURT II-A CASE IX possibly slightly removed, of police work, detection, suppression?
A. I have already explained this briefly in the direct examination, that the tasks of the police were limited, according to their general field of activity, to deal with espionage cases - that is, cases which had already occurred, to clear them up, and to search the person who was guilty.
Q. My question is merely.... Was this in the nature of police work. Yes or no?
A. That is just what I was tring to explain.
Q. It only takes one word.
A. May I ask you to repeat the question?
Q. Was this work in the nature of police work?
A. I understand you now. No, it did not have the character or the nature of police work. It had been built up on means at the disposal of the SD - that is, with cooperators, and those co-workers had no police functions because they were not able to search houses, or arrest people, nor to fulfill tasks which are normally given to the police.
Q. During this period of development of the National Socialist regime in which you participated, might we not say from this that you were conversant with persons, groups, or movements, which threatened the security of the Third Reich?
A. That I knew such personnel, or such groups of persons.... is that the question?
Q. No, it is not. That you were aware that these groups of persons, or movements, existed as possible or potential opposition to National Socialism.
A. I don't know what reason somebody might have who is commissioned with news information Service whether COURT II-A CASE IX his activity directed against National Socialism, or Whether he just does it to Serve his Fatherland, to get information for his Fatherland, or whether he does it to be paid well.
...there might be various reasons and these reasons will be immaterial to whom carries out the counterintelligence.
Q. You stated in your direct examination that you had been a propagandist for the National Socialist movement, right?
A. Insofar as I discussed with people who held different opinions -- that happened not only once, but repeatedly, - inasfar as I distributed propaganda material, that I temporarily worked in a propaganda department, - yes,
Q. At what time did you become aware of the fact, as a National Socialist, that Jews were considered an economic and a virtual Physical threat to the Reich?
A. As endangering the Reich?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know how to reply to a question addressed like this.
Q. Perhaps I can rephrase it for you, make it a little easier. Were you aware that Hitler, and the other members of the Hierarchy of National S ocialism, intended to rid Germany of Jews because they were considered a potential threat, economically and physically?
A. During the first years after 1933, perhaps until the beginning of the war, I cannot say for certain, plans on a large scale to resettle the Jews or to give them the possibility of emigrating, I did not know about that. I knew, of course, that Jews emigrated, and that it was desired; but whether there was a general plan for that, I didn't know.
Q. You were aware that the National Socialists didn't COURT II-A CASE IX exactly find the Jews pleasing?
A. That's right.
Q. Were you aware of the laws that were passed which deprived Jews of their property rights, their rights of citizenship? In the final analysis, speaking of concentration camps, their right to live?
A. No, I was not conscious of that, that they denied them their right to live.
Q. You didn't fully answer my question. Were you aware of the discriminatroy laws regarding property rights, and the rights of citizenship?
A. No, I was not conscious of that.
Q. Can you read?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you read the papers?
A. In general, yes.
Q. Thank you. In 1939 you marched with the Army, that is, the Third Army, into Poland, right?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your position with the Third Army?
A. In the staff of the Third Army I was chief of the civil administration.
Q. Did you have a title?
A. No.
Q. Was it skin to a BDS?
A. No, no. It was a military position that is attached to the Third Army.
Q. I understood you to say on direct examination that it was rather a shock to you when you were - we might saydegraded, and sent to the front as an Unterscharfuehrer for the reason that you had never had any military experience.
A. That was not why I was surprised. The shock was owing to the fact that as Major General I had been demoted, COURT II-A CASE IX and now was an NCO.
Q. My question was... On direct examination you stated that you had no previous military experience, Right?
A. I had no real training, and no experience at the front.
Q. I understand that a seasoned soldier, a soldier who knows his way around, is a person who has participated in a campaign, Isn't that experience of the best?
A. The campaign in Poland, where I had a position on the staff, cannot be compared to this.
Q. Was this a tea party or a campaign?
A. That was a campaign, but with a position on the staff.
Q. You stated that it was a military task, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. What were your duties here?
A. Setting up administration offices, as in the territory under the military commanders, setting up county offices, mayor offices, setting up economic administration, and get it going again: and also agriculture. That was part of the work I did.
Q. Night we not say that this experience that you gained in this campaign would qualify you for the position of BDS?
A. That has nothing to do with this, because they were merely administrative tasks of the military administration
Q. I believe it is common knowledge that excesses were committed here against the Polish Jews in the polish intelligentsia. Are you aware, or were you at that time aware, -- did you witness these excesses.
A. From the time when I was in this territory in the COURT II-A CASE IX north of Poland, where German policemen had shot a Jewess in self-defense, was put before the court-martial and was condemned to death.
I remember this case very vividly. But measures against Polish intelligentsia or Jews at that time, up to the beginning of October 1939, I know nothing about that.
Q. Let us confine ourselves merely to the Jews or to the intelligentsia... Were there any other groups who were annihilated during this campaign?
A. In the territory where I was at that time I did not hear of any such measures.
Q. It later came to your attention that these things took place, except in one isolated, qualified incident?
A. At the moment I cannot remember any other case.
Q. Leaving this, after your service in Poland in October 1939, you returned to Berlin to become chief of Amt VI of the RSHA... right?
A. Yes.
Q. You remained in this position until September 1941 ... correct?
A. Yes.
DR. SUESS (for Defendant Schulz): Your Honor, the Defendant Schulz has a bladder trouble, and I ask for a short interval, that he may have a chance to affend his nature.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Schulz will be escorted from the courtroom by the Marshal until his temporary indisposition has passed.
DR. SUESS: Thank you, your Honor. BY MR. GLANCY:
Q. As part of the duties within your agency, that is, Amt VI, did you not have representatives in Russia selecting natives of Russia for intelligence work?
A. In Russia? If I understand you correctly, I am supposed to have had agents in Russia Itself. I must say that a German intelligence service unfortunately did not succeed to set up a news service system in Russia itself.
Q. If I am not mistaken, I have understood the Defendant Naumann to state that there were representatives of Office VI in Russia and that they had a house of their own from which they operated in selecting people to carry out counter intelligence work.
A. In the occupied Russian territory, I thought I understood you to say in Russia, in the Russian territory, Mr. Prosecutor. If you want to have detailed information on this, I ask you to ask my successor. During my time I had no opportunity yet to deal with this.
Q. From September 1941 until February 1942, you stated on direct examination that you were paid by the RSHA, but that you were without assignment.
A. Yes.
Q. Was this merely that you were awaiting for an opening suitable to your rank, such as the Einsatzgruppe?
A. No, I was supposed to join the Ministry East.
Q. In February 1942 you took an information tour into Russia?
A. Yes.
Q. What type of information were you gathering?
A. In the interest of my future assignment in the Eastern administration, I was to get some information on the situation in the East, that is, get to know the country. That was the task given in Posen. This was no special task. The task was only given because I had nothing else to do. Just to give me something to do.
Q. You stated on direct examination that you went to Riga and took command of Einsatzgruppe A, with the task 23 O ct 47-3&4-9-M-AEH-Biolsi (Juelich) COURT II-A CASS IX of BDS and Ausland included, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. At this time did you become aware, or were you previously sware, of a Hitler order for the extermination of Jews, Communist functionaries, or other undesirable elements?
A. At the latest, at the time when I arrived in Riga I was informed about the Fuehrer order. Whether this has been discussed previously -- in any case, I did not know of the contents of it until then. Even in Riga itself, when I asked to have the order made known to me, I only considered him, considering the Jewish question because that was the main problem.
Q. You were aware of this Hitler order to contain the specific order to wipe out the Jews in the occupied Eastern territories of Russia?
A. Yes, I heard about chat in Riga, quite clearly.
Q. From whom?
A. From the adjutant of Stahlecker.
Q. On what date did you learn of the order to kill Jews?
A. I knew previously that the order existed, although I did not know about its full extent.
Q. I am sorry. Will you repeat that please?
A. I said, I knew that Jews were being shot, but I did not know about the extent of the order and the great importance of it. I only heard about this in Riga; I only could realize it there.
Q. On what date did you become fully conversant with all the uncaning of this order to kill Jews?
A. Well, I presume the day I started to work in Riga.
Q. Which was?
A. I believe it was 29 March.
Q. On the 29th of March 1942, you were aware of the order to exterminate Jews?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your reaction when you first became aware of this order?
A. It was my intention to travel to Berlin in order to try to ask Heydrich to cancel, this order, The psychological reaction, not only at that moment, but also previously, for instance, the discussion in Smolensk, which I described yesterday... this mental state remained.
Q. You found this distasteful then... it repulsed you?
A. It is hard to describe this in orders, how these things were.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you please speak more directly into the microphone? The interpreter has difficulty in hearing you.
Q. (By Mr. Glancy) Will you kindly repeat your answer?
A. I said, the entire psychological condition is hard to describe in words.
Q. Were you shocked?
Q. You were pleased?
A. I don't think it necessary to emphasize that this was not the case. I think I used the expression "shocked" yesterday. That is perhaps what it was.
Q. As a National Socialist were you at any time convinced that this was a necessary task, that is, the extermination of Jews?
A. Whether I personally had the opinion that they had to be exterminated, and this was necessary, I personally did not hold this view.
Q. You were not of this opinions?
A. No.
examination from Heydrich calling for a liquidation of Jews other than those between the ages of sixteen and thirty-two years of age; you stated that you put this in your office safe in order to think it over. What was your action upon it? on the order.
Q You refused to pass this order on? hand it on.
Q That, at least, was a passive refusal? checked up on the different Einsatzgruppen to see the orders that had been issued from Berlin were carried out?
A No, there was no such man at the time. Heydrich was the chief, and apart from him there was nobody special who was given the commission to check on the Einsatzgruppen, or do anything of the sort. Berlin, this being a military, or at least a para-military organization, weren't you required to reply by endorsement, that is, something like contents received, or noted, carried out, or ignored?
A No. In that case it did not happen that way. of these orders? matter - only the receipt was confirmed, but if it was not a top secret matter, no receipt was given for it. It was a more formality, it has nothing to do with the contents.
as to the execution of the tasks given to their subordinate commanders was by the reports sent to Amt-IV RSHA, is that correct? any other authority. to Amt IV?
A I don't think so. It is possible that monthly reports were still made, but I can not remember any details any more.
Q In other words, you merely do not remember? and what kind of reports were made. formal report, were they?
A They were reports. Situational Reports, and Activity Reports, which as far as I remember the commander sent in every month.
Q To you?
Q But to you first? reports at their discretion, the two reports could be made simultaneously.
Q You did receive your reports?
A What do you mean? My own? you say it was their privilege to sent out simultaneously. You received yours?
did not contain reports of executions?
A I can not remember details any more. I do not dare to state that in a huge territory and for that set tine there were no deaths. subordinates then, you know of that possibility, don't you? could have done so is quite possible. were carried out by your subordinates and in turn reported to you? partisans in the city proper, but now I can not say any more what actually happened there, and how many people died there. I remember for example that this happened. they were Jewish, nor armed but Jewish; therefore, not partisans, but Jewish? have happened while you were in command, do you?
A It might have happened? East, you had two positions. First, the Chief of Einsatzgruppen-A, and, secondly, that you were BDS or Commander-inchief of force of Security Police and SD, is that right? description of your duties, first, as Chief of Einsatzgruppe-A, secondly, as Commander-in-Chief of Security Police and SD?
instructions Heydrich gave me, and depended on the position in which Einsatzgruppe-A was
Q That was the position of Einsatzgruppe-A?
A What the position was? The position of Einsatzgruppe A was, as stated yesterday, that there were the three commandants, I-A at Krasnogwardeisk, and commander I-A was part of the roar army area in Estonia, and had to deal with those areas which overlapped the civilian administration; the Commander Krasnogwardeisk was working in the territory of the 18th army, and the commander of Loknia was near the front with the 16th Army. existed? dissolved before my time, or were subdivided before my time. I don't know exactly whether the Kommando of Loknia consisted only of Kommando-II or only part of this, and whether a new subdivision were added. All this happened before my time. I only know that during my time One-A, Krasnowardeisk and Loknia were talked about and written about.
Q Let's get on to the BDS. When Heydrich assigned you to Einsatzgruppe-A you stated it was no longer active as an Einsatzgruppe, is that correct? the beginning, were no longer dealt with, because the Kommando Loknia was part of the troops, and Kommando Krasnowardeisk dealt with part of army duties, that is espionage, counter intelligence, part of them general security duties. These were the original tasks which had been assigned to the Einsatzgruppe.
against your expressed wishes, did Heydrich insist upon naming you the Chief of Einsatzgruppe-A?
A Why he insisted on it? Or rather, why he didn't comply with my request to send somebody else there in my place. I don't know exactly why. He told me at the moment he didn't have any one at his disposal for this.
Q My question is, not why he didn't appoint some one else. You have stated that, at least in a sense, this was a case of temporary command. You had nothing to do. You had no Kommando under Einsatzgruppe-A?
A I understand you now. I said yesterday that the group staff in Krasnowardeisk, that is, the group staff of Einsatzgruppe-I-A were almost one unit with Kommando Krasnogwardeisk, because no other task had been assigned to the kommando in such a way, that the existence of special groups or groupstaff was no longer justified; they had not really been dissolved but they had become a unit. kommando still active as you were appointed commander? stated that there is a possibility that executions of Jews took place, is that correct? as in that territory there were no Jews.
Q Then let's broaden the question to include your task of the troops under your command as BDS-Ostland? Were there any executions that took place during your period of command as chief of Einsatzgruppe-A or BDS Ostland?
Q First, was Estonia under your command? ambiguous position, in as far as first, there was Sonderkommando-A which came under the commander in the rear of the territory in Verra, and, also under the commander of the Security Police and SD, and again belonged to the general district of Estonia, therefore, there was an overlapping of the competency there.
Q Couldn't that be simplied by saying that although they could receive orders from others, they also received orders from you, and in turn had to report all happenings within their areas to you?
A Not every event had to be reported to me. In many cases it might have happened, that only the military office was informed, or only a civilian office was informed. There is no guarantee that I heard about every event. the commanding officer of action of troops under him? that this always happened, because there was a possibility that the reports were sent to Berlin immediately. The commander had special authority to report independently from his superior.
Q: Previously you sadi that they must send reports and they had the right to make the simultaneously with a direct report to Berlin, and send a cive-copy to you?
A: They could have sent this to me, yes.
Q: Was Latvia also under your command?
A: Latvia was under the commander of Latvia.
Q: Was there a commander of Security Police there?
A: A commander of Security Police and the SD.
Q: Weren't you the commander-in-Chief of Security Police and SD?
A: Yes, I was the commander-in-chief.
Q: Therefore, these two as were subordinated to you?
A: With the modification I made yesterday.
Q: Which was?
A: That is an individual general district, as independently administrated, it was the general-commissar who was the responsible man. Under him was the SS and Police Leader, and order him the commander of Security Police and SD. This results in an subordination system which can make it possible that somebody might be omitted.
Q: You were the BDS Ostland?
A: Yes.
Q: These troops then of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and White Ruthenia were KDS for that particular countries?
A: As commanders of the security police, yes.
Q: Therefore, they were subordinate to you, is not that correct?
A: With the limitations I have mentioned.
Q: Did they not report to you?
A: They did send reports to me, but I have no guarantee that I got all of the reports.
Q: There is in the course of events a good, chance that you got most if not all?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: Was that not the custom to forward the reports to you?
A: I have explained repeatedly that the commanders had the right to give any reports to the RSHA, the Reich Ministry Security Office, and then to the Einsatzgruppe-commander; the scheme was quite different here, there was a different possibility of injustice for the RSHA and this could result in entirely different channels of command.
Q: But perhaps the channels were devious and many; but you were in one of the channels, were you not?
A: Yes, I belonged to it.
Q: You were in a commanding position?
A: I must repeat again and again - in a limited position as commander resulting from the special situation in this territory.
Q: Let's make it very clear then. You could issue orders, could you not?
A: Yes, I could issue orders.
Q: They owed you the duty of rendering reports and carrying out your orders, is that right?
A: If I had passed on this Heydrich Order at that moment, I would have given an order, of course, and would have requested that reports be sent to me; and would have waited until it was reported to me that this order had been carried out.
Q: I am going to show you one of the many reports received from the occupied zone of Russia. You have stated now that White Ruthenia, Lithuania, Estonia and Lativia were under your command, is not that correct?
A: I repeat; in the form I stated.
Q: I shall repeat, you could issue orders to the KDS, and these armies with the full expectation they would be carried out, is that correct?
A: Orders could be given by me, as well as by the commissar-general, and, also by the local Police and SS Leader; therefore, there were many possibilities of issuing orders, part of those orders could be given from the Reich Ministry Security Office, and also from the Higher Police and SS Leader, who would always do this immediately.
Q: Didn't the Higher SS and Police Leader customarly, except in the case of an emergency, issue final reports or rather orders to you for your subordinates?
A: Please repeat that.
Q: Was it not a custom, except in cases of rare emergencies, for the Higher SS and Police Leader to issue order to your subordinates through you?
A: During the time when I was there, I cannot remember any specific case. It might have been possible.
Q: Thank you. Now I want to point out a report I have here, and it would seem to the eye that there are clear marks of demarcation that is showing an expressed chain of command, and I want your comment upon it? (hands photostat to the witness)
A: Do you mean this page here? Do you mean this page here?
Q: That is right (Counsel is at the witness's box). I also would like to show the court what I mean and I point out what appears as a line of demarcation.
THE PRESIDENT: You want to do something for the purpose of the record -- you had better talk into the microphone, Mr. Clancy.
MR. CLANCY: I want to show the Tribunal the line of demarcation which would seem to note a definite chain of command.
It will be noted -
THE PRESIDENT: You are not getting that?
THE INTERPRETER: No, sir, I cannot hear.
MR. CLANCY: I wish to point one to the Tribunal the lines of demarcation which are outlined in the document, and which appears after each division and sub division, namely under Speduln there appear three dashes separating him from Brigadefuehrer Jost. This is identified under him with the commanders of the counries of Estonia, Latvia Lithuania and White Ruthenia.