Q.- And what did you do during that time?
A.- At that time I took up my duties as lecturer at the university and as Dean.
Q.- When did this case come up for decision?
A.- At the beginning of November I was ordered to see Heydrich in Prague, and he reproached me about my so-called desertion from the SD to the Waffen-SS. He told me I was unfaithful and disobedient, and similar things.
Q.- Did you just take this, or did you answer him?
A.- One can only imagine my position at that time if one knows the relationship between Heydrich and myself which existed since the year 1938/1939. Heydrich had treated me like a dog for three years. And I believe that anyone who was in the RSHA at the time knew that, and knows it. And at the time I was in a mental state in which I no longer considered my personal fate, and it did not matter to me what Heydrich was going to undertake. It was clear to me that sooner or later he would break me in some manner. Therefore, I told him at the time that since the year 1939 I had tried to get out of the SD, that I had volunteered to go to the Waffen-SS in order to achieve my inner freedom; that was recalled from my troops against my will, and that I could see no sense in the situation in which the German people found themselves to take over such an unnecessary office, so unimportant for the war as Office VII was. I can only say that Heydrich broke out in a fit of rage and finally threw me out.
Q.- Did this happen in front of witnesses?
A.- There were some people in the anteroom -- the State Secretary Frank, Sturmbannfuehrer Ploetz, and a secretary.
Q.- What happened then?
A.- I returned to Berlin and told Streckenbach about the conversation and about my whole position. And I must say again today what had become clear to me at that time, - that Streckenbach at that time was the good angel in the RSHA.
At any rate be introduced and tried to eliminate this dispute in some manner. At the end of November, after Nebe returned from Smolensk, a conference took place at Streckenbach's office between Streckenbach, Nebe and myself. In this conference Nebe was absolutely stubborn, Therepupon, Streckenbach decided he would take up the matter with Heydrich personally. The result of this Heydrich-Streckenbach conversation was evidently the fact that I was informed that I was to take on my duties in Office VII once more; that he spoke to Juettner, and that I would be dismissed from the Waffen-SS, and that, therefore, some sort of compromise might be reached. I mention this only because it shows the special situation in which I found myself at the time. It explains the psychological situation I found myself in my relationship with Heydrich for three years. I also want to mention here that in the beginning of December, retroactive to the 9th of November, I became an Oberfuehrer, and this promotion came about at a time when all other office chiefs in the RSHA were also promoted.
Q.- This promotion to Oberfuehrer came about after the compromise achieved by Streckenbach, and it represented an awarding which should have been made before but it was withheld?
A.- At any rate, in September 1938 I had been promoted the last time. And I had wondered that I had been promoted, but at any rate I was promoted.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, I just hear that when translating my question about the witnesses during this dispute with Heydrich, only two names Minister Frank and Adjutant Ploetz were given -- according to the answer of the defendant there was an another witness who was also present -- the Secretary Scherrer. Please, correct the English record.
THE PRESIDENT: What are you complaining about?
DR. ULMER: The answer to the question - "Who witnessed the dispute between the defendant and Heydrich" - were three names.
And the translation gave only two names.
INTERPRETER: No, I translated all three.
DR. ULMER: -- I think that you probably missed the Secretary Scherrer?
THE PRESIDENT: The interpreter states that he did mention all three. But at any rate, your statement is on the record and the official mechanical record will state what actually occurred.
DR. ULMER: I thank you; I just wanted to have it correct. I didn't want to complain.
Q.(By Dr. Ulmer) - When were you dismissed from the Waffen-SS?
A.- That took some time longer. The Division Reich had been completely destroyed in the fighting area near Moscow in December, and had to be reconstituted so that the dismissal only came about in March or April. This time corresponds with the repatriation of the Division into the Reich.
MR. FERENCZ: I think there has been another error in translation. The question was, "When was the 'Entlassung'"..... which is properly translated "release", and it came across as "dismissal", I would like to have that corrected in the record, or have the translator make it clear now how he translates the word "entlassung".
THE PRESIDENT: Now let's make this clear first. We haven't admitted that there was an error in the first instance. You now merely call attention to this situation which will be cleared up immediately.
DR. ULMER: My question was, "When were you dismissed from the Waffen-SS"?
MR. FERENCZ: The question is .... is translation of the word "Entlassung" -- "dismissed" or "released"?
INTERPRETER: TO me it is "dismissed".
MR. FERENCZ: Thank you.
BY DR. ULMER:
Q.- Did you speak with Heydrich once more?
A.- No, I got another order in May 1942 to take part in a conference in day at Prague, but I did not speak to any of the other office chiefs, and I was not addressed by Heydrich. A few days later the assassination of Heydrich took place.
Q.- After the death of Heydrich, did you dissolve your relationship with the SS?
A.- Immediately after the death of Heydrich a discussion between Streckenbach and myself took place. Strenckenbach agreed with me to the extent that I could now leave the SD. The offer at the time made to me by the State Secretary Luther of the Foreign Office, namely to take over the training of the diplomatic service, was then the official reason. From the 1st of August 1942 I was let out of the SD.
Q.- Why were you again called into the Waffen-SS in February 1943?
A.- I think there was a slight variation in the translation. On the 1st of August I was given leave not released, and Kaltenbrunner, the successor to Heydrich, on the occasion of taking over the RSHA, made the demand to me that I should be in charge of Office VII temporarily. I refused this, and I volunteered for the Waffen-SS.
Q.- But you were called into the Waffen-SS on the 22nd of February 1943 -- your call-up was revoked again. For what reason?
A.- I told the then Foreign Minister Ribbentrop that this was a forced situation for me; whereupon, he intervened with the FHA of the Waffen-SS and my draft was revoked.
Q.- And when were you taken into the Foreign Office?
A.- Immediately after the call was revoked. In February 1943 I made indispensable to the Foreign Office and I was given the direction of the cultural branch. At the same time as an Office Chief I left office VII, officially.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, I just have a few concluding questions. If you wish the recess, this would be a good point.
THE PRESIDENT: If the questions are only a few, and by that we suppose they would not occupy more than five or ten minutes, then we will proceed until you actually terminate,
DR. ULMER: Yes, it would be finished in ten minutes at most.
Q. (By Dr. Ulmer) - Then the concluding question. Your activity as Dean, or University professor - was this in connection with your activity in the SD or Security Police?
A.- No; I can say at the most that I had great difficulties on behalf of this faculty of international politics through Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. Twice I was threatened with arrest by him. I only say this because I want to emphasize what great contrast could exist there between such workers of international politics and Office IV, the Gestapo, even though I was in the RSHA myself. When I built up this faculty of international politics in 1940 I had about 20 to 25 no-aryan students from the university "Foreign countries"; I had taken them into my faculty as students from another institute. On the basis of a denunciation with the State Police he demanded that those people be excluded - whereas I had my way about it -- and they were able to conclude their examination in my faculty. He demanded the arrest and dismissal of the 50% non-aryan professor, Albrecht Haushofer, whom I had suggested as a professor, and whom I kept on down to the last moment. He further demanded the recall of another professor, Professor Grave, who had married a half Jewish wife, and nevertheless I kept him as a professor. He arrested a number of students and lecturers in 1942, who had set up a resistance movement, and he threatened me with arrest and interrogated me for hours. This is only a short description of what the relationship of this faculty was toward the Gestapo.
Q.- Was your activity in the Foreign Office in any connection with the SD?
A.- No. Since 1941 a decree existed in the Foreign Office that no SD member may belong to the diplomatic service. And Ribbentrop made me promise that I would leave the SD since one could not serve two masters.
Q.- What were your principles in the cultural work with the Foreign Office?
A.- Those principles were conditioned by the war. I wanted to realize the principles or maintaining intellectual contact with foreign countries, even during the war, and thereby to maintain intellectual exchange with foreign countries during the war - for as the director of the cultural branch in the Foreign Office it was my uppermost duty, also during the war at least, to maintain those contacts and not to interrupt them which were the only connection there with world - at least European culture. This I did faithfully. Even though it was not easy to do this in the Foreign Office. My department chiefs in the Foreign Office had very bad disputes with Goebbels during the 2 1/2 years of my activity there. In the course of the years I had retained a pretty good picture of the relationship of the personality to the community, and of the originality of intellectual achievement. Whatever goebbles did in Germany was the greatest cultural mechanism which has ever been seen, and in my field, at least in foreign countries, I tried to maintain the idea of an intellectual liberty and of a genuine cultural contribution, It was not easy - for every thinker, every poet, every scholar who went abroad on my order, and with my signature, had to go there against the will of Goebbles. And if I can say one thing that I did in those years, it was to prevent that the barren cultural mechanism of Goebbles would become the token by which Germany is known abroad. The result of my attitude was expressed by the fact that in the year 1944 Goebbles via the State Secretary Mussehl, demanded the dissolution of my cultural branch and my being drafted. But just as much as I maintained the idea of intellectual freedom in my cultural work, I thought that it was also my job as director of the cultural branch to maintain and direct the intellectual and religious ties with the foreign countries.
Thus I took it upon my own shoulders and on my responsibility that from the time after 1942 and 1943 the German religious communities abroad got their contributions from me; that German priests, Protestant and Catholic, still were able to travel to their congresses and organizations abroad; that the parochial schools and religious hospitals should not be dissolved, but that under the great difficulties of securing foreign exchange continued to exist under my direction. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Are we to understand from what you are now telling us that the utmost religious freedom existed during the war?
A. I was just about to describe, your Honor, that in the field of cultural ties with foreign countries I secured these connections for those religious institutions.
Q. Well, I asked you a question... you didn't answer it. Do I understand from what you have been telling us that because of your efforts there existed in Germany during the war, religious freedom?
A. No, I did not say that. I said I tried to maintain this principle, at least abroad.
Q. You tried to maintain it abroad? What did you have to do with that abroad. We took care of that abroad.
A. For example, according to the demand of Bormann I should have refused my contribution to the German communities abroad.
Q. It would have been very interesting if you had done something of worrying about this freedom abroad; in fact, that seems to have been the difficulty --- Germany was too much interested in what was taking place in other countries.
A.- I thought that if I maintained the ties between the German church and the foreign church, that then I have made a contribution to the existence of the German church, too.
Q.- Why didn't you make a contribution to the German church in Germany.
A.- I was not competent for dealing with the parochial questions in Germany. But the relations between the German and the foreign church that was my job.
Q.- Did you do anything in Germany to ease the burden of the clergy that was not permitted the utmost expression of religion?
A.- If the German, or Catholic, church had the desire to attend foreign congresses in order to keep up the contact with the church; of if missionary work was to be done in China, or Africa, then I did so. That was the job which was entrusted to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
DR. HOFFMANN: Dr. Hoffman for Nosske. from Monday's session in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Nosske will be excused from attendance on Monday in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. FIGHT: Dr. Fight for Beberstein. excused from Monday's afternoon session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Biberstein will be excused from Monday's afternoon session.
Mr. Ferencz, I think the interpreter is ready to give a clarification on the translation on which you made an observation before we recessed.
INTERPRETER LEA: I have informed myself that the word "Entlass" can mean discharged, dismissed or released.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, The record will show that for the clarification of the word in question.
Dr. Ulmer, just before we recessed the witness was taking us on quite a tour around the world and we last saw him in China and Africa. Now, let us try to bring him back to the scene of activity which is the locale in the indictment.
DR. ULMER: Yes, your Honor. The activity of the defendant, of course, is concerned with the activity of the defendan in the Foreign Office, therefore it is necessary that he went out to larger regions are concerned, and therefore he could take no influence on church matters within Germany. My last question, your Honor, to the defendant, was what the last, the ultimate aim of your cultural activities.
THE WITNESS: As a scientist and research worker, I want to find and answer for young people to the questtion of the relationship between the various nations, the attitude of the various people and their cultural communities.
As a cultural politician I wanted to take care that this culture was being kept up and maintained, and to create a community conscience between the various peoples. This was even more valid for war than it was for peace.
MR. ULMER: Your Honor, I have now finished my set of questions as far as my direction examination is concerned. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q: Were you concerned, Witness, about the dissemination of these cultural ideas in the kommando groups?
A: When I took over the leadership of the kommando Moscow I proved my attitude by, for instance, making free two churches and giving them back to the population so that the purpose for which they were actually built could be fulfilled again. I think this is a proof of my attitude to these questions, even during the time of my commando.
Q: Do I understand that during the time that you were with Einsatzgruppe B that you exerted your influence to have the churches reopened so that the civilian population could worship in the churches, is that what I gather from your observation?
A: That is right, your Honor.
Q: Yes, so that your part in Einsatzgruppe B was not to herd the people together and take them out into the woods for the purpose of execution, but to rally them together and March them to church?
A: One has nothing to do with the other, your Honor.
Q: Well, you know the purpose of Einsatzgruppe B. You know what the main purpose of all these Einsatzgruppen was.
A: Your Honor, I was not a member and not a part of the Einsatzgruppe B.
Q: Well, you were attached to Einsatzgruppe B, were you not?
A: This is a question of proper definition, your Honor. The fact that I was given a few leaders and a few interpreters by Gruppe B, that does not mean that I was actually attached to it but I regarded myself in my function and my activities in the East as an independent individual commando in the East.
Q: Your kommando at one time or another actually did participate in executions whether you were there or not.
A: At times when I was the chief of this kommando no. That is until the 20th of August. I attempted to make that quite clear in my direct examination.
Q: Yes, but prior to your arrival this Einsatzgruppe B was engaged in the execution of the well-known fuehrer order was it not?
A: That at the date when I arrived it was already active?
Q: Yes.
A: And indulging in these activities? I did not see this activity, your Honor.
Q: No, but they had taken place, and you know that they had taken place.
A: At the date when I arrived, I did not know that these activities had taken place. That was at the time when Einsatzgruppe, B, that was on the 6th of July, did not have the possibility of ever having been active.
Q: You knew the purpose of the Einsatzgruppen in that area; you knew the Fuehrer order, did you not?
A: I heard of this Fuehrer order, as I have already said, in my direct examination, I found out about the Fuehrer order, as I have already said, through other commando leaders.
Q: Yes, and we are to understand that once you got into the field, you immediately changed the complexion of things and that instead of having the Jews taken out into the fields to be executed, instead of the civilian population being expressed, you exerted your efforts to have the churches reopened and the civilians given the utmost religious freedom and cultural expression?
A: No, your Honor, I see no casual connection in this statement. There is no casual connection, your Honor, on the one side carrying out executions, or allegedly, and on the other hand, making churches available for the population.
Q: You volunteered this yourself. You gave us quite a very interesting narrative on your activity, and you told us how you held aloft the torch of religious freedom and how you kept alive the flame of cultural expression.
A: Yes.
Q: You told us that in quite a speech.
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Now I am asking whether you exerted your efforts in behalf of religious freedom, in behalf of cultural expression, in behalf of a political liberty when you were in the field?
A: Your Honor, I must then deal with the basic question of my attitude to the war in Russian and the question of the treatment of theRussian people by the German troops. Here also I have my own and a very independent opinion which I acquired during many years, and it is part of my attitude that was not part of my knowledge and my conviction that the German Army terrorized the U.S.S.R. when they marched in, but in my political conception it is certain that as Germans it would have been our task in the political administration and government of these countries and to ask for principles of political freedom and agricultural freedom, and even religious and cultural freedom.
conviction that that was the political program of the German Reich and that was to be carried out in the occupied Eastern Territories, and it is one of the overwhelming shocks of my life that I had to establish as I have now during the last weeks found out from documents which I had not seen before I came here, as, for instance, discussions between Adolf Hitler, Goering andRosenberg, and as I say, to recognize in such documents that from the very first day of our march into Russia, instead of political administration in the most genuine sense of the word only terror was meant.
Q: So you only learned about the terrorism when you got to Nurnberg as a prisoner recently?
A: I have had many experiences, your Honor, with terror.
Q: Did you know of terrorism in overrun Russia while you were there in charge of this commando group?
A: In Russia I found out that the political intention and the political system was a terroristic one.
Q: You did find that out?
A: What I found was against my personal convictions.
Q: Well, was it your personal observation?
A: Yes, it was my personal observation, and also what seemed to me just as necessary and as important, it was the realization that this policy did not agree with my personal idea of necessity of German policy in the East.
Q: And what did you do between June 22nd and August 20, 1941, while you were in that occupied territory, to restore political liberty and freedom to the civilian population?
A: My function in the East during the march was not of such a nature that I would have had the possibility to carry out such principles.
I could not do anything at all.
couldn't do anything else?
Q Of course not. And if your kommando had to be used for purposes of execution could you have done anything to prevent it? under my own personal leadership and under my personal supervision and under my personal order, if, as I say, my commando would have had to carry out such actions, I could have prevented them. tory, we understand that your kommando did not participate in any execution and that you exerted all your efforts during this period to cultural pursuits? not my order to spread culture.
Q What did your commando do during this period? existent archives in Moscow, to make use of them and make such arrangements as necessary.
Q What did you personally do; how did you yourself put in your time while you were there? On the 14th, I left Minsk after I had accomplished my task within the kommando.
Q And what was that task? with the first front troops and to take care that the archives were secured, and here I have to say that the original order I got, the original explanation I got was that within six to seven weeks the German Army would arrive in Moscow. Under those conditions this commando was established.
istic activities? yourself? the proclamation of a self-government on the part of the Russians, the fact that in this, self-government was not given over to the inhabitants of White Ruthenia or to the Ukrainians. indulged in terrorist practices. Now, just what happened that causes you to make this statement? What did you see; what terroristic practices did the German forces exercise? establish self-government, that in itself is proof that other measures of a very strong military force were exercised.
Q And you didn't know of the execution of the Jews while you were there?
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may cross-examine the witness.
DR. LAMBERT: Lummert for the Defendant Blume. Your Honor, I have only one very short question to the Witness. BY DR. LAMBERT: Berlin, and soon after, you had a negotiation with Streckenbach who was the office chief of Office I of the Reich Security Main Office. May I ask you what day this discussion took place?
A It was on a Saturday. As far as I remember it was the 23rd of August. this discussion with Streckenbach? existed between Blume and Nebe. When I asked why, he told me that he had received a report from Nebe to the effect that Blume was not carrying out strong enough measures on the question of executions.
Q Did Streckenbach tell you any more? he had circumvented this execution order?
A No, he did not do that. He did not say anything about it. He only said that the report from Nebe had arrived. He did not ask me about their relationship but it is not impossible that Streckenbach might have done so already.
DR. LUMMERT: I have no further questions, your Honor.
DR. RIEDIGER: Riediger for the Defendant Haensch. Your Honor, I wish to put two short questions to the witness. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q Witness, do you know the Defendant Haensch?
Q Where did you meet him, and since when do you know him?
AApproximately since 1937 or '38.
Q And he was then in the SD Main Office?
Q What was he active as, what was his work? to be released from the Reich Security Main Office? in my faculty for foreign political science and asked me on that occasion whether I saw a possibility of a change, that he could change his activities so that he could leave the Reich Security Main Office and could enter the Ministry for foreign affairs or another agency of that kind.
Q Did he mention a reason why he wanted to be released? feel very well.
discussed this with you, and that on that occasion he asked you whether he could join the civil administration in Denmark? believe at that time he came to see me again and asked me whether on behalf of our relations with the Reich Plenipotentiary in Denmark I could use this connection in order to influence him. May 1942. How many participants were there?
Q Do you remember whether Haensch was present?
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, I have no further questions, but may I now ask in this connection to excuse the Defendant Haensch from attendance in Court on Monday, for further preparation of his Defense?
THE PRESIDENT: You would like to have him excused from attendance on Monday?
DR. RIEDIGER: Monday.
THE PRESIDENT: Monday?
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes.
THE COURT: Yes, the Defendant Haensch will be excused from attendance in court on Monday in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. HEIM: Dr. Heim for the Defendant Blobel. BY DR. HEIM:
Q Dr. Six, several minutes ago, when you were asked by the President, you said you would have had the possibility to prevent executions if you for your kommando had received an order to carry out executions. Do you mean to say by that, Dr. Six, that this was equally valid for leaders of other kommandos, for instance, the leader of the kommando SK-4-A? Do you mean to say by that that the commander of the SK-4-A would have had the possibility to prevent executions which he had been ordered to carry out?
A No, I did not want to say that. I merely wanted to state that I as the commander of the Advance kommando Moscow was in a special position not to comply with execution orders. Therefore,as I received no such order at all I did not have to carry out such orders. It is, of course, evident, that whoever received such an order had to carry out this order, but I did not want to touch this question.
DR. HEIM: Thank you, your Honor, I have no further questions. BY THE PRESIDENT: would then have executed it?
Q Theoretical? Well, that is your field. You are a professor. Theory is your field, is it not? military organization is concerned and that the individual, if he has been put in such a situation, hardly or not has the possibility to evade such order if he receives such an order.
Q Then your answer is yes?
A Yes. What exactly was the question? in the field had received the Fuehrer order to liquidate civilians that you would have executed the order? now stated, you would have executed the order? situation from the position I am in today, and I did not receive such an order. militarily you were called upon to execute an order, that you would have no other recourse but to execute it.
You then stated a generic proposition. Now, we apply to you directly and we ask that if you were in the field and you held a position of command and you received this order, would you have executed it? if I regard myself merely as an officer, then this officer would have had to carry out such an order, but I cannot say that about myself, because I did not receive it. I can only see it is an abstract way, that in fact a leader, who receives such an order has to carry it out.