A: Your Honor, I was not a member and not a part of the Einsatzgruppe B.
Q: Well, you were attached to Einsatzgruppe B, were you not?
A: This is a question of proper definition, your Honor. The fact that I was given a few leaders and a few interpreters by Gruppe B, that does not mean that I was actually attached to it but I regarded myself in my function and my activities in the East as an independent individual commando in the East.
Q: Your kommando at one time or another actually did participate in executions whether you were there or not.
A: At times when I was the chief of this kommando no. That is until the 20th of August. I attempted to make that quite clear in my direct examination.
Q: Yes, but prior to your arrival this Einsatzgruppe B was engaged in the execution of the well-known fuehrer order was it not?
A: That at the date when I arrived it was already active?
Q: Yes.
A: And indulging in these activities? I did not see this activity, your Honor.
Q: No, but they had taken place, and you know that they had taken place.
A: At the date when I arrived, I did not know that these activities had taken place. That was at the time when Einsatzgruppe, B, that was on the 6th of July, did not have the possibility of ever having been active.
Q: You knew the purpose of the Einsatzgruppen in that area; you knew the Fuehrer order, did you not?
A: I heard of this Fuehrer order, as I have already said, in my direct examination, I found out about the Fuehrer order, as I have already said, through other commando leaders.
Q: Yes, and we are to understand that once you got into the field, you immediately changed the complexion of things and that instead of having the Jews taken out into the fields to be executed, instead of the civilian population being expressed, you exerted your efforts to have the churches reopened and the civilians given the utmost religious freedom and cultural expression?
A: No, your Honor, I see no casual connection in this statement. There is no casual connection, your Honor, on the one side carrying out executions, or allegedly, and on the other hand, making churches available for the population.
Q: You volunteered this yourself. You gave us quite a very interesting narrative on your activity, and you told us how you held aloft the torch of religious freedom and how you kept alive the flame of cultural expression.
A: Yes.
Q: You told us that in quite a speech.
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Now I am asking whether you exerted your efforts in behalf of religious freedom, in behalf of cultural expression, in behalf of a political liberty when you were in the field?
A: Your Honor, I must then deal with the basic question of my attitude to the war in Russian and the question of the treatment of theRussian people by the German troops. Here also I have my own and a very independent opinion which I acquired during many years, and it is part of my attitude that was not part of my knowledge and my conviction that the German Army terrorized the U.S.S.R. when they marched in, but in my political conception it is certain that as Germans it would have been our task in the political administration and government of these countries and to ask for principles of political freedom and agricultural freedom, and even religious and cultural freedom.
conviction that that was the political program of the German Reich and that was to be carried out in the occupied Eastern Territories, and it is one of the overwhelming shocks of my life that I had to establish as I have now during the last weeks found out from documents which I had not seen before I came here, as, for instance, discussions between Adolf Hitler, Goering andRosenberg, and as I say, to recognize in such documents that from the very first day of our march into Russia, instead of political administration in the most genuine sense of the word only terror was meant.
Q: So you only learned about the terrorism when you got to Nurnberg as a prisoner recently?
A: I have had many experiences, your Honor, with terror.
Q: Did you know of terrorism in overrun Russia while you were there in charge of this commando group?
A: In Russia I found out that the political intention and the political system was a terroristic one.
Q: You did find that out?
A: What I found was against my personal convictions.
Q: Well, was it your personal observation?
A: Yes, it was my personal observation, and also what seemed to me just as necessary and as important, it was the realization that this policy did not agree with my personal idea of necessity of German policy in the East.
Q: And what did you do between June 22nd and August 20, 1941, while you were in that occupied territory, to restore political liberty and freedom to the civilian population?
A: My function in the East during the march was not of such a nature that I would have had the possibility to carry out such principles.
I could not do anything at all.
couldn't do anything else?
Q Of course not. And if your kommando had to be used for purposes of execution could you have done anything to prevent it? under my own personal leadership and under my personal supervision and under my personal order, if, as I say, my commando would have had to carry out such actions, I could have prevented them. tory, we understand that your kommando did not participate in any execution and that you exerted all your efforts during this period to cultural pursuits? not my order to spread culture.
Q What did your commando do during this period? existent archives in Moscow, to make use of them and make such arrangements as necessary.
Q What did you personally do; how did you yourself put in your time while you were there? On the 14th, I left Minsk after I had accomplished my task within the kommando.
Q And what was that task? with the first front troops and to take care that the archives were secured, and here I have to say that the original order I got, the original explanation I got was that within six to seven weeks the German Army would arrive in Moscow. Under those conditions this commando was established.
istic activities? yourself? the proclamation of a self-government on the part of the Russians, the fact that in this, self-government was not given over to the inhabitants of White Ruthenia or to the Ukrainians. indulged in terrorist practices. Now, just what happened that causes you to make this statement? What did you see; what terroristic practices did the German forces exercise? establish self-government, that in itself is proof that other measures of a very strong military force were exercised.
Q And you didn't know of the execution of the Jews while you were there?
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may cross-examine the witness.
DR. LAMBERT: Lummert for the Defendant Blume. Your Honor, I have only one very short question to the Witness. BY DR. LAMBERT: Berlin, and soon after, you had a negotiation with Streckenbach who was the office chief of Office I of the Reich Security Main Office. May I ask you what day this discussion took place?
A It was on a Saturday. As far as I remember it was the 23rd of August. this discussion with Streckenbach? existed between Blume and Nebe. When I asked why, he told me that he had received a report from Nebe to the effect that Blume was not carrying out strong enough measures on the question of executions.
Q Did Streckenbach tell you any more? he had circumvented this execution order?
A No, he did not do that. He did not say anything about it. He only said that the report from Nebe had arrived. He did not ask me about their relationship but it is not impossible that Streckenbach might have done so already.
DR. LUMMERT: I have no further questions, your Honor.
DR. RIEDIGER: Riediger for the Defendant Haensch. Your Honor, I wish to put two short questions to the witness. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q Witness, do you know the Defendant Haensch?
Q Where did you meet him, and since when do you know him?
AApproximately since 1937 or '38.
Q And he was then in the SD Main Office?
Q What was he active as, what was his work? to be released from the Reich Security Main Office? in my faculty for foreign political science and asked me on that occasion whether I saw a possibility of a change, that he could change his activities so that he could leave the Reich Security Main Office and could enter the Ministry for foreign affairs or another agency of that kind.
Q Did he mention a reason why he wanted to be released? feel very well.
discussed this with you, and that on that occasion he asked you whether he could join the civil administration in Denmark? believe at that time he came to see me again and asked me whether on behalf of our relations with the Reich Plenipotentiary in Denmark I could use this connection in order to influence him. May 1942. How many participants were there?
Q Do you remember whether Haensch was present?
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, I have no further questions, but may I now ask in this connection to excuse the Defendant Haensch from attendance in Court on Monday, for further preparation of his Defense?
THE PRESIDENT: You would like to have him excused from attendance on Monday?
DR. RIEDIGER: Monday.
THE PRESIDENT: Monday?
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes.
THE COURT: Yes, the Defendant Haensch will be excused from attendance in court on Monday in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. HEIM: Dr. Heim for the Defendant Blobel. BY DR. HEIM:
Q Dr. Six, several minutes ago, when you were asked by the President, you said you would have had the possibility to prevent executions if you for your kommando had received an order to carry out executions. Do you mean to say by that, Dr. Six, that this was equally valid for leaders of other kommandos, for instance, the leader of the kommando SK-4-A? Do you mean to say by that that the commander of the SK-4-A would have had the possibility to prevent executions which he had been ordered to carry out?
A No, I did not want to say that. I merely wanted to state that I as the commander of the Advance kommando Moscow was in a special position not to comply with execution orders. Therefore,as I received no such order at all I did not have to carry out such orders. It is, of course, evident, that whoever received such an order had to carry out this order, but I did not want to touch this question.
DR. HEIM: Thank you, your Honor, I have no further questions. BY THE PRESIDENT: would then have executed it?
Q Theoretical? Well, that is your field. You are a professor. Theory is your field, is it not? military organization is concerned and that the individual, if he has been put in such a situation, hardly or not has the possibility to evade such order if he receives such an order.
Q Then your answer is yes?
A Yes. What exactly was the question? in the field had received the Fuehrer order to liquidate civilians that you would have executed the order? now stated, you would have executed the order? situation from the position I am in today, and I did not receive such an order. militarily you were called upon to execute an order, that you would have no other recourse but to execute it.
You then stated a generic proposition. Now, we apply to you directly and we ask that if you were in the field and you held a position of command and you received this order, would you have executed it? if I regard myself merely as an officer, then this officer would have had to carry out such an order, but I cannot say that about myself, because I did not receive it. I can only see it is an abstract way, that in fact a leader, who receives such an order has to carry it out.
Q I don't know of anyone who could speak better about yourself than yourself. No one would know your experience; because of your training and education and culture no one would know you better than yourself and if you received such an order, you would go into a conference with yourself and then you would reach a decision. Now that decision would be either to execute the order or not execute the order. Your Honor. I would have to take the actual act of this order and I would have to discuss this act with myself and either would have to agree with this act personally or I would have to refuse it. I would have to make an inner decision.
A To think myself back into such a position I cannot do. I can only take an abstract case and I say this officer has to carry out this order and, if the officer, which in this case is Six, is in this dilemma, he had to carry out this order, but between the receiving and the carrying out of an order, there is a personal decision. At any rate I did not experience such a decision and therefore I can only look at it in an abstract way. involved in this theoretical question. Usually when one is confronted with a theoretical question, he desires to know all the factors. You, with your training and education and having bean a professor and a teacher and having lived many years and now having been in a courtroom since the beginning of this trial, and knowing all the factors, there is no reason why you should sidestep a direct question. Now you have gone so far as to say that if Officer Six were ordered to execute the order, he would execute the order. Now, are you -- is your name, "Six"?
Q Were you Officer Six?
is, "Yes," is it not? slip of the tongue -- between the receipt of an order and the carrying out of an order, there is, as we can recognize now in many cases, of my comrades, a very difficult human decision. This difficult human decision is not merely theoretical and cannot be expressed in the abstract and can only be experienced and it can only be answered as a human problem.
Q Dr. Heim asked you a very direct question. He asked you if his client were present with an order could he do anything other but obey it and you said, "Yes." Now I am asking you, if you, Six, were confronted with that order, to execute, would you have obeyed and followed out the order? In the position of an officer I have to carry out an order. But carrying out of such an order, as has been mentioned and asked about by the Prosecution again and again and the mental struggle with the moral problems, these moral values are of such consequence and severity that they cannot be theoretically discussed. They can only be experienced. like that unless you reflected on it and unless you discussed it. Now you have discussed it. We have discussed it for many minutes. Now I come back to the original question: If you received this order, would you execute it?
Q What your can you answer it in? How long do you want to reflect on this? We still have two more months left of 1947. What year could you answer such a question in? Your Honor.
Q Well, then, we come to this conclusion: that although you were an officer in the German Army for many years and although you have had the benefit of a very thorough education, and although you were a professor in a university, and although you were also a Dean, and although you also knew about religious values, and although you had spent many years of your life in the consideration of psychological and philosophical questions, now in this courtroom, when listening to this very simple question and especially in view of the fact when you realize that every other defendant is confronted with the same question, you refuse to answer it?
Heydrich to move and in full knowledge of the Fuehrer Order to carry out certain measures, I could answer this question exactly to day, but, as I have not received such an order then and neither was put in front of the alternative to carry out shootings, it is not possible for me.... decided the question on July 22, 1941? order first..... have come to a decision on July 22, 1941.
Q You could have come to a decision on that day?
Q And now with the benefit of six years' reflection upon such an order, you feel incapable of answering this question? receive this order as an order directed to myself personally and as a consequence I was not put into the personal position to struggle with myself and to have to come to a decision to carry it out. if Officer Six had received that order, Officer Six would have executed it. You made that statement. Do you confirm it now?
A I add, not this order, but "an" order, "an" order I said Your Honor.
Q Well, "an" order, "an" order might be merely to take a drink of water. We are speaking about "the" order. We are not speaking of play things here. If Officer Six had received the order which we are discussing here would Officer Six have executed that order? You answered that in the affirmative. Now, do you want to change your answer? Do you want to say that you do not agree with yourself of 15 minutes ago.
Q Well, then, do you confirm that answer?
A Yes, I said so, but I meant "an" order, generally, any order whatsoever.
Q Any order whatsoever, which could also include the Fuehrer Order?
Q Would it also include the Fuehrer order? I am considering all the phases between the receipt and the carrying out of an order, that is, the personal, the moral, the inner decision, which was not put to me, and, therefore, I must repeat that I can only say in the abstract that a leader or an officer has to carry out orders, but between the receipt of an order and the carrying out of an order, is the most important decision in human life; that is the mental dispute I think, and the fight about such a deliberation about such an order, that is the conflict, the most human inner quality, even if an officer; otherwise a question for morale and ethics would not exist at all.
Q Well, this is just merely an outpouring of words. I asked you whether you confirmed what you said 15 minutes ago and you said you did. Now I don't know whether this expenditure of rhetoric has in any way changed that original statement. We will take from what you have said that if Officer Six had received this order, he would have executed this order. You would have said that if Officer Six received any order, he would have executed that order and within that generic and comprehen sive expression, "any order", we will assume that you can include also such an order as the one which we have just discussed, namely, the Fuehrer Order.
attitude in this case without any moral and ethical participation, between receipt and carrying out of an order.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other defense counsel ready to cross-examine?
DR. MAYE : Dr. Mayer, for the Defendant Steimle.
I must correct myself, Your Honor. I am sorry. It is for the Defendant Klingelhoefer that I plead now. BY DR. MAYER (Attorney for the Defendant Klingelhoefer):
Q Professor, when and where did you meet Klingelhoefer? Moscow?
AAt this time he was drafted to Vorkommando. That was in Minsk.
Q Why was he drafted to VKM? Advance kommando Moscow? all objects for the ministry in Moscow. Smolensk? work out the files in the Soviet House and in the NKWD house, and he made the corresponding excerpts and these were sent to Berlin. during his activity in the VKM under your command, with these executions of Jews and other persons?
the VKM and I can now say in detail that until the day of my departure Klingelhoefer was not in charge of such measures and did not deal with them. left? personally.
DR. MAYER: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other defense counsel wish to cross-examine?
Mr. Ferencz, are you going to conduct the cross-examination of the witness?
MR. FERENXZ: Yes, Your Honor, I am, but in view of the late hour, I think it is better to recess at this time than to be interrupted after ten minutes by a weekend recess.
THE PRESIDENT: For that reason, in view of the fact that after two days perhaps we would not be so fresh on what you have said, now in view of that fact, the Tribunal will recess for the day and for the weekend and will reconvene Monday morning at nine-thirty o'clock.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 27 October 1947, at 0930 hours).
of America, against Otto Ohlendorf, et all., 27 October 1947, 0930-1630.
Justice Mussanno,
THE MARSHALL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 11_A.
Military Tribunal 11_A is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. Six, at the outset I would like to clarify a matter which was being discussed just before the recess. As concerns the defendant Blobel, you stated that if he received an order he would have to carry it out and there would be no possibility for him to prevent executions. You refused to judge whether you would have carried out such executions How can you make that judgment for Blobel? Blobel whether I was of the opinion that an officer could refuse to obey an order. I assume, of course, that if he puts such a question to me he does not refer to it as being especially pertaining to his client, but which referred to commanders as such; therefore, I stated that the order must be carried out, objectively speaking. From the very beginning, though, I made the reservation that between carrying out the order and the actual receipt of the order, there is an important factor to be considered, namely the personal will to come to a resolution. In this personal decision there is no way, of course. question and in your reply you did not intend to make any specific reference to this defendant, is that correct?
A Noo Mr. Prosecutor, I did not want to do so. I did not want to make a special remark as referred to the defendant Blobel.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you have stated again what you have stated a number of times, that between the receipt of the order and the execution of the order, there would need to be a passage of time for reflection. The question which Mr. Ferencz has repeated to you this morning, which was given to you on several occasions last Friday, was very specific. Now this situation was put to you on Friday. Since then, three days have intervened, and you say that there would need to be a passage of time between the receipt of the order and the execution of it. Now three days have passed since this Question was put to you, do you think now you can answer that very specific question. That if you received an order which Blobel received, would you execute it?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you are asking a hypothetical question.
THE PRESIDENT: We are not asking a hypothetical question at all. Now listen to this. Dr. Heim asked you a very specific question. I will read it to you. "Question: Dr. Six, several minutes ago you said when you were asked to that effect by the President, that you had the possibility -- you would have had the possibility to prevent executions if you or your commando had received an order to carry out executions. Do you mean to say by that, Dr. Six, that this was equally valid for leaders of other commandos, for instance, the leader of Kommando_SE_IV_A, do you mean to say that that Kommandocommander of SK_IV_A would have had the possibility to prevent executions which he had been ordered to carry out." Your answer was: "Noo I did not want to say that." Then after another little discussion here you said: "It is, of course, evident that whoever received an order had to to carry out the order." Now you took it upon yourself to answer for Blobel. You took it upon yourself to answer for a brother officer, a brother soldier. Now, if you could answer for him, and you go even farther, and answer for the whole German Army, you answer for every officer: if you could answer for these officers, all these other officers, you should he able to answer for yourself, because no one knows yourself better than DR. Six knows him. Now that is what Mr. Ferencz has put to you this morning very specifically and you have replied to the question, by saying you would need time for deliberation. Now, you have had three full days for deliberation, and we would like to know if you would answer that question directly, specifically, and not with a great deal of circumlocution? Proceed.
THE WITNESS: If I had received the order to shoot women and children, I, knowing my present inner attitude-- and I believe it still is the same as it would have been at that time if I should have received such an order, I would have refused this order by own death. I can not give you a clearer answer than that. If I would have had to shoot women and children, I would have refused to obey this order, even if I had paid my own life for it. BY MR. FERENCZ: caught in January 1946? disposal of the American troops, when I met my wife. However, she told me that there had been two raids by the secret service, and conviction had been expressed against me and my family; then upon her wishes, I decided to wait for some time. That was the reason.
Q Did you give yourself up, or were you Caught? correct?
Q When did you become a member of the SS?
Q What was your rank in the SS?
Q Was that an honorary title?
not those for full capacity service. That was not a real rank. than any other SS man had, or was it just an honor to be a member of the SS? holds. At that time I was already, a paid member of the University Corps in Koenigsberg, therefore, this title was not merely an honorary one, that is what I meant to say.
Q Were there any different SS titles which were was honorary? honorary title because if you had been active you would have had something in addition to just the title of Brigadierfuehrer. Now I ask you whether any other titles in the SS different from Untersturmfuehrer, which were not honorary? Untersturmfuehrer and at the same time a lieutenant of the police, or a lieutenant of a Waffen-SS, but at that time there was no such thing. your title as Untersturmfuehrer and any other Untersturmfuehrer, no matter what he was doing, is that correct?
Q What was your SS rank three years later on, 1938?
A In '38 I was SS_Standartenfuehrer.
Q That is equivalent to a colonel, is it not?
Q And what was your SS rank in 1945?
A 1945?
Q 145?