Q: So to that extent you had a reservation in your mind when you took the oath of allegiance to Hitler?
A: Yes.
Q: This morning I quoted the oath from memory as I had recalled it. I will now read it literally. "I vow inviolable fidelity to Adolf Hitler. I vow absolute obedience to him and to the leaders he designates for me." You took that oath, did you?
A: Yes.
Q: But you were not willing to live up to it according to its letter?
A: First of all and most of all I did not think that such an oath would include an entire program which varied very much.
Q: Then when you learned that it did include a program which conflicted with your conscience, you desired to deviate from the program and an allegiance to the oath, is that might?
A: That is a question which is very decisive, and I don't know whether I can reply to it in three or four words.
Q : You can give me more than three or four words.
A: If I am to answer this question freely, such a decision does not arise suddenly, but they are very difficult situations of development which only form by and by and throughout the years since 1939 whether a person was a National Socialist or a German, a growing criticism arose against political measures, and a certain attitude did not come about all at once but was a result of a great number of realizations and experiences. I believe my attitude or my relation to Adolf Hitler did not come about all of a sudden but through years and they changed.
Q: Witness, when did you take your oath, what year?
A: I gave my oath in 1935 or 1936.
Q: Alright. So that you had several years to ponder over the solemnity of that oath. Between 1936 and 1941 you had five years so that you can't say that this suddenly hit you like a lightening flash and you had to make an instantaneous decision. Now we ask you again, did you feel yourself free to deviate from this order when you received an order that conflicted with your conscience or with your system of morals?
A: I did not put this question to myself with such clearness.
Q: Well, thik of it now.
A: I am prepared to give this answer, your Honor, but I don't quite realize what alternative you expect of me.
Q: I don't expect any alternative of you. I only expect a true and honest straightforward answer. You took a solemn oath to follow Adolf Hitler, to obey not only his orders but the orders of all leaders appointed by him, unquestioningly. That was the oath. Now I want to know if you were willing to live up to that order unquestioningly or whether you made exceptions here and whether you side-stepped somewhere else?
A.- I certainly did not follow this oath -- I cannot think of the proper expression -- I did not follow this oath without any doubts or considerations, but I had a lot of doubts and misgivings on various occasions.
Q.- Then you were wailing to deviate from the oath?
A.- Owing to the fact that at the points which I mentioned just now, I did not follow the oath.
Q.- Then you were willing to use your own mind in deciding which part of the oath you would follow and which part you would not?
A.- With such clarity, which part of an oath I would obey and what parts I would not obey, as in a scale of figures, I could not express it so clearly, but it was clear to me that certain requests made to me, I could not comply with.
Q.- Yes. You then did not regard the oath as having a sacred binding obligation, in accordance with this letter?
A.- If I answer this question, I must say that political revolutions, spiritual revolutions, and conscience revolutions, always existed.
Q.- Now please answer that question. You were willing to deviate from the oath?
A.- I already said that.
Q.- Yes, now, are you willing to deviate from other oaths that you take?
A.- I have not given any other oath in my life.
Q.- You gave an oath here the court to tell the truth. Did you ever deviate from that oath, because of the situation with which you were confronted?
A.- I do not think I will have any advantages if I deviate from an oath in this tribunal.
Q.- So, therefore, you will deviate from an oath only when it will be to your advantage?
be to your advantage?
A.- No, just no -
Q.- No? Then you make a difference between the oath which you gave to Hitler and the oath which you gave somewhere else.
A.- The oath I gave to Adolf Hitler was a political oath. The very moment when a relation exists between the person administering the oath and the person giving the oath, or, rather, if a breach occurs here, then I believe it is possible to make political reservations.
Q.- Then you do make a distinction between the Hitler oath and another type of oath.
A.- I make a difference between a political oath and an oath only directed to God.
Q.- So therefore a political oath, you can treat as you wish, but another kind of oath you regard as sacred and binding?
A.- There are people in Germany -
Q- No, don't tell me about people in Germany. I am asking you, here, in Nurnberg.
A.- What question?
Q.- You do make a distinction between this oath to Hitler, which you call a political oath, and another oath?
A.- The oath I gave to Adolf Hitler was an oath of allegiance and only of allegiance. The very moment where I think I can not give my allegiance here on one point, then I believe I can make my reservation there.
Q.- Yes, and did your superiors know that this was the way you were treating the oath, that you could abide by it when you pleased and ignore it when you so chose?
A.- On this particular question, that is the Fuehrer Order to kill women and children, I tried to evade the oath by my thoughts. I never received it personally. Nobody told me I should shoot women and children and I believe that this refusal in my mind is one of my rights as a human being, and, if I have the courage to say this, to express it here, not matter what results I may derive from this, I believe I did this after mature and serious consideration.
I also accept the danger that the only oath I gave in my life should be questioned while I am sitting here in this Tribunal.
Q.- Did you have the courage to express yourself that way when Adolf Hitler was alive?
A.- I believe that through many individual actions, I have dared to disobey this order, through practical measures.
Q.- Then you did receive the order. You say you have dared to disobey it.
A.- I did not say that I received the order, I merely said I had the courage at that moment to take certain measures, for example, to help Jews.
Q.- You helped the Jews when you were there in the East? Is that the reason you received the promotion? Tell us how you helped the Jews when you were in charge of this Moscow Kommando, Tell us what you did to help the Jews while you were there.
A.- I did not help them then at that time.
Q.- You didn't help them when they needed your help?
A.- I didn't understand the question.
Q.- You knew that an order was out to exterminate Jews, because you spoke to a Kommando leader. You told us about this, on July 7, between July 7 and July 10, you knew that there was an order out to exterminate Jews. Then was the time for you to show your humanity and now tell us what you did then to help the Jews.
A.- At that time I did nothing.
Q.- You did nothing? And when you went back to Berlin, did you tell Heydrich that this order was unconscionable one, that the extermination of Jews was contrary to every law of civilization and humanity -- did you tell him that?
A.- I did not have much opportunity to speak at the time. During the discussions, he mostly talked.
Q.- Yes. So that it all comes down to this: that your courage in defying Hitler comes to you in 1947 and not 1941. '42, '43, '44 or '45?
A.- I believe - but it would go into too much detail -- other political factors played a part here.
Q.- Yes, now you were promoted, because of what you did in the East, weren't you?
A.- According to the words of this declaration. Not in my opinion.
Q.- Well, you didn't promote yourself. Others promoted you and it was their firm believe that you had conducted yourself in so examplary a manner that you were entitled to a promotion?
A.- I already said that I am not sure that it wasn't a pretext used on the 9th of November to promote a great number of leaders and it did not depend on the examination of the merits of the person at all.
Q.- You were willing to have yourself considered as an exterminator, one leading those Kommando groups closely in the execution of innocent people, so that you might receive the promotion, even though it was untrue?
A.- I said that I did not see the promotion in its wording, I said that from the very beginning, I wasn't conscious of the fact, therefore and the second letter, which was submitted to me concerning my second promotion I did not see either because this was an internal memorandum. Therefore, on both occasions, I did not know the reason.
Q.- So that it wasn't until 1947 that you learned why you had been promoted?
A.- Yes, until that time I did not know that the reason for my promotion were to be my special merits in the East and I don't know what special merits I gained in the East.
Q.- You don't know of anything which you did in the East which would have entitled you to a commendation or a promotion?
A.- No.
Q.- And you think that this promotion came out of the goodness of heart of Himmler?
A.- No, I said that obviously it was a result of Streckenbach's intermediation and the fact that it was only expressed in the beginning of December seems to be a very good reason for this.
Q.- So that what you want the Tribunal to believe is that Streckenbach, out of his great friendship for you invented the story that you had conducted yourself gallantly in the East in the execution of these orders at the head of your Einsatzkommando and that he manufactured this story out of his love for you in order to have you promoted?
A.- This record in the document, as I can see, says merits in the commitment, the Einsatz. This does not mean, Your Honor, that they are concerned with merits concerning the extermination of Jews.
Q.- Well, you have stated that you didn't do anything in the East which entitled you to a commendation or promotion, insofar as your original mission was concerned, as you told us your original mission to be.
A.- That is my personal opinion.
Q.- Yes, so, therefore, the promotion was not given for what you tell us you did in the East, namely, collecting archives. We at least can exclude that. You say you did nothing in that respect.
A.- In any case, I cannot say why Streckenbacj should have said this, Consequently I can say neither the one nor the other thing.
Q.- So it was all a mystery why you got this promotion and the mystery wasn't solved until you reached Nurnberg?
A.- No, I did not say that. I said it was my turn. I had not been promoted for 3 1/2 years; that Gruppenleiters had already been promoted to Obergruppenfuehrer and I was still a Standartenfuehrer. What this printing part in this is -Q.- Are you speaking of the promotion in 1941 or the one in 1945?
A.- 1941.
Q.- Yes, when you were a member of the SS?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And an actual member, not an honorary member?
A.- I repeat again I was not paid and it was not my main task. There is a difference between an honorary position and a main position.
Q.- One has to believe now that you did all this work just out of charity, that you didn't receive any pay, while you were wearing the SS uniform?
A.- Not a penny.
Q.- You didn't receive any pay?
A.- No.
Q.- From nobody?
A.- I was paid by the State as a university professor, but I was not paid by the SS.
Q.- But you were being paid?
A.- Yes, certainly, but not by the SS.
Q.- But you received a stipend every month regularly?
A.- Yes, I was paid by the Reich Education Ministry.
Q.- You were paid by the Reich Government?
A.- Yes.
Q.- The same government that paid all SS people?
A.- But from their own resources of administration and from other field of administration.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at 09:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 28 October 1947, at 0930 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
Military Tribunal II-A is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. VON STEIN: (Dr. Von Stein for the Defendant Sandberger) today and tomorrow to prepare his examination.
THE PRESIDENT: You want him excused immediately?
Dr. VON STEIN : Yes, please, Your honor.
THE PRESIDENT. The Defendant Sandberger will be excused from attendance in Court today and tomorrow in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. RIEDIGER: (Dr. Riediger for the Defendant Haensch.) that he be excused for today and tomorrow in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Haensch will also be excused today and tomorrow for the same purpose.
DR. MAYER: (Dr. Mayer for Defendant Steimle.) morrow to prepare his examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Steinle will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon and tomorrow for the purposes indicated by his counsel. left the room?
Dr. Ulmer, have you finished with your client?
DR. ULMER: (For Defendant Six) I have one final request, whether it would be possible to get the record also in the English version of the days that the defendant Six was in the box in order to check up on the translation, since on "Einsatz" which is commitment, and "Einsatzgruppen" there might have been some confusion.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will authorize your receiving an English copy of the transcript. The mechanics of your obtaining it will be worked out through the Defense Center.
DR. ULMER: Thank you, Your Honor, and may I reserve the right, if I should find out that something is wrong, may I point it out?
THE PRESIDENT: By all means that, right will be reserved to you.
DR. ULMER: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Ulmer, what more will you have to present in behalf of the Defendant Six?
DR. ULMER: First I shall only have to submit documents, Your Honor, concernining witnesses, it depends on whether Witnesses are to appear and can appear here who can state that the witness did not take part in any shootings. Bringing in such witnesses has its difficulties and not the least is the fact that it has been in the papers that all people who had anything to do with Einsatzkommandos may be sent to Russia. The result of this might be that possible witnesses nay be hiding, and for me as a Defense Counsel it is particularly difficult to bring the witnesses here at all. But anything witnesses could prove I could prove here thorough affidavits and documents. I already have these here, and very soon I will submit them to the High Tribunal. The delay is not owing to me but only owing to the technicality of mimeographing and translating the documents.
THE RRESIDENT: Dr. Ulmer, you, of course, present your defense in any way that you desire. We will merely inform you that the Tribunal stands ready to offer you any and every assistance within its power to facilitate the obtaining of such proof as you believe is relevant and which is available in behalf of your client.
DR. ULMER: Thank you very much indeed, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Six will now be returned to the defendant's dock and the Defendant Paul Blobel will be taken to the witness box.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, Dr. Heim for the Defendant Blonel. I want to discuss a basic question which arose owing to an occurrence this morning. When I came into this room this morning and talked to the Defendant Blobel, and put down my two hands on the barrier the guard instructed me to step back 70 centimeters. Your Honor, the Defendant Blobel is hard of hearing. There night be some difficulties during the session here owing to that. It is impossible for me to talk to him when I am 70 centimeters away from him, who is sitting. For that reason I ask the Tribunal to instruct the guards that one may put one's hands on the barrier, and I don't quite realize whether this is an offense against security.
MR. FERENCZ: If Your Honor please, the question of how far any one must stand when speaking to a defendant is a question of security which is solely within the competence of the military post who are responsible for the security, and I do not believe it nay properly be raised in this court. If there are any objections so that the defense counsel feels he may not present his defense, I ask the Court to instruct him to take it through the correct channels, namely through the Defense Administrator, making an appeal to the persons responsible for the security in the jail.
THE PRESIDENT: I mil say with regard to that, the Tribunal is ready at all times to hear complaints, criticisms, or appeals of any nature Which have to do with this trial and if Dr. Heim believes that his discharge of his duty is in any way being impeded by what he has now announced, he is entirely within his rights to inform the Tribunal, and the Tribunal will immediately look into the matter which he has mentioned, and if security regulations, because of the unusual circumstance, will allow him to advance closer to his client for the purpose of conferences that privilege will be allowed to him.
DR. HEIM: Thank you, Your Honor. fied as follows:
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me. pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
( The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: Before you begin your examination, Dr. Heim, the Tribunal will instruct the Marshal to contact the prison physician to examine Dr. Blobel during recess time to ascertain that his hearing is so defective that it is necessary that his attorney approach closer than the security regulations require.
DR. HEIM: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q. Witness, please tell us your full name.
A. Hermann Wilhelm Paul Blobel.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On 13th August 1894 in Potsdam.
Q. What was your father's profession?
A. My father was a carpenter.
Q. Did your father do any political activity and did this have any results?
A. As far as I know my father was in a trade union. In 1899, owing to a strike, he left Berlin and went to Remscheid. He worked in Berlin as a carpenter in a construction firm. He wanted to work with a construction firm in the States. The mother followed him with the children, and my parents stayed in Remscheid.
Q. Please describe briefly your career until the beginning of the First World War, to start with.
A. At the age of five I came to Remscheid in the Rhineland and there I visited the elementary school. I then learned the carpenter trade. I passed an examination. After that I worked as a mason and also worked in the office in a construction firm. I trained myself in mathematics and other subjects connected with construction. In 1912 I passed the entry examination at the Royal Construction School in Wuppertal. I continued to work as carpenter apprentice, and I saved money in order to be able to visit school. I was exempt from military service for one year.
Q. Herr Blobel, did you take part in the First World War?
A. Yes.
Q. Please give a short description.
A. On 1 August 1914, I joined as a pioneer, the engineer regiment 24 in Cologne. At the geginning of November, 1914, I went into the field to the front. I remained with this unit from '14 until '18 at the front.
At the end of the war I was released. I had several slight wounds. I was released to go to Remscheid.
Q. Please describe your professional training and activity later on.
A. With the assistance of my parents and my brothers and sisters my professional training between 1919 and 1920 at the higher technical college in Wuppertal was finished. After that I was a building technician in various positions in construction firms and in 1924 I got a certificate as indepentant architect in Solingen.
Q. Did the economic collapse in 1926/27 concern you?
A. My activity as an architect started very small, from 1924-1927 I was successful. So that is 1926 I had a capital of my own of approximately- 15000 Reich Marks. I used this to build an apartment for myself. The money breakdown in 1926/1927 caused that I received very few orders, and therefore also the salary was missing sometimes, and business obligations I had very few. My debts at the tine amounted to 16,000 Reich Marks, On the other hand, I had duesof 25,000 Reich marks to come, which I could not get. In 1929, that is '28, '29 and '30 there was a time when I got no orders. My mobile property wasused to cover the debts. In 1931 I could not be leased. I was unemployed and until 1934 I got the unemployment relief which was. entered in the register.
Q. Until this time did you take part in any political activity or were you interested in politics at all?
A. Until 1931 I did not belong to any political party. My professional activity for many years caused no to have connections with SPD circles, the Socialist Party of Germany.
Q. Did you then join any political organization, and if yes, which one?
A. In May 1931 I joined the SA Reserve, a group of older businessmen. In October 1931 I joined the SPD, the Socialist Party of Germany. In January 1932 I came to the So as a candiate. In 1932 I received my book of membership to the SPD.
In 1933 the SPD was prohibited.
Q. Mr. Blobel, does your reply not contain an inconsistency, that you were a member of the SPD and the SA or SS Candidate at the same time?
A. At the time a great many members of the SA Reserve were in the same position. We did not consider the SA to be a political organization but rather "Vereiv" a club, which it actually was. Concerning the membership in the SPD and at the same time the application to join the SS, I saw no contradiction in this, because at that time I did not carry out any political activity in the SA, in which I found no aims opposite to those of the SPD. At that time the SS was established in Solingen for the first tine and Gruppenfuehrer Weitzel was appointed for this district in Duesseldorf. In 1929, with a few hundred men he went over from the SPD to the SS.
Q. Witness, how long were you a member of the SA Reserve?
A. A member of the SA Reserve I was from May 1933 to - or rather June, July, 1931. In July 1931, I left the SA Reserve.
Q. What was the reason and your motive to change your political opinions and to leave one party?
A. The difficult position made it necessary to join people who were prepared to help each other.
Q. Did you join the NSDAP?
A. I was registered through the SS.
Q. When was this?
A. I received the membership book in 1934. My application was filed at the end of 1934. My register card submitted by the Prosecution does not coincide with these dates. In this file as date of joining the NSDAP, the 1st of December is entered, 1931, but this time is too early. It is predated.
Q. Having been a proper member of the SPD, did this not have any consequences for you?
A. In 1933, a procedure was opened in the examination board of the NSDAP, owing to my membership in the SPD.
Q. Witness, using this opportunity, I want to refer to Document Book III-C of the Prosecution, page 17 of the German text. It is Document NO-3197, Exhibit 136. It is the file submitted by the prosecution as your register card. This is your personal file, page 17, in the Document Book III-C.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: page 11 in the English.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Prosecuter. On page 1 of the document a number of decorations are mentioned and the copy of the document does not reveal which of these decorations you receiver. Witness, would you please explain briefly which decorations you actually received, according to your personal records?
A. I only got those decorations mentioned in the copy of the register card, those which bear a star in these records here.
Q. That is sufficient. Witness, what did you do after 1933?
A. From 1933 to 1934 I was still unemployed. In 1934 until the middle of 1935, I was employed by the City of Solingen with a month salary of 120 Reichmarks. After June 1935 I came to the SD Section, Duesseldorf.
Q. Herr Blobel, please describe your activity in the SD in Duesseldorf.
A. As an architect, I Wes appointed by the SD. I set up and conducted the construction of the SD office in Duesseldorf in 1935. I remained with this new agency and I had to deal with the information service deomestic sphere in the Duesseldorf district. When the SD Section was extended I then became Chief of a sub section and later on the Section Duesseldorf, within the Oberatschnitt (Main Section) Duesseldorf.
Q. During your activity in Duesseldorf, did you have any differences with superiors or other party agencies?
A. Differences of opinion in dealing with some subjects occurred repeatedly. The change in the leadership of the SD Sectors also causes divergencis in opinions with the subordinate leaders.
Q. When were you promoted for the last time?
A. My last promotion occurred on the 30th of January, 1941.
Q. How do you explain the fact that since 1941 you were not promoted any more?
A. I had no previous convictions by any court, and there is no reason why I should not have been promoted. Perhaps I was too old, because sufficient younger members were there who confirmed with the conditions required. The judgment of my superiors about me I don't know, but the judgment of the superiors was decisive.
Q. What were the chances of promotion for full-timeservice leaders generally?
A. On the whole, promotions were made from time to time in spaces of one to two years, according to efficiency.
Q. Which organizations, sections, or associations connected with the NSDAP did you also belong to?
A. I was a member of the NSV, the Reich Colonial association, the Reich Association for Air Raid Protection, the Reich Association for Art, and then I was in the SA for a number of months. I left the SS when I was transferred to the SD.
Q. When were you appointed to go to Berlin?
A. I was drafted on the 13th or 14th of June, 1941.
Q. What kind of an authority was this?
A. I was taken from military Service as being indispensible in civil life and I was put at the disposal of the Reichfuehrer SS. This being ordered to Berlin was to be regarded as conscription.
Q. Was this drafting to Berlin--could it be compared to a conscription for War?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time did you know the reason why you were appointed?
A. I did not know the reason for this, no.
Q. Where were you sent from Berlin?
A. From Berlin I was sent to Pretsch with other leaders.
Q. Did you previously know about the transport to pretsch?
A. No.
Q. In Berlin, did you take part in any official discussion?
A. No, not even in the discussion in the Prinz Albrecht Palais, which were mentioned here repeatedly. On the day of my arrival, together with other leaders, I was sent to Schmiedeberg immediately.
Q. What statements can you give concerning the age of the leaders in Schmiedeberg and Pretsch?
A. In general, the leaders were much younger than I was.
Q. Witness, at the time you were already 45 years of age. At the time on comparing yourself, did you realize the differences in age between you and the rest of the leaders, and did you not think about whether it might be a special motive for your being drafted?
A. I considered this drafting to be a reply to my application to leave the SD.
Q. Can you give us facts which confirm this assumption of yours?
A. With the inspecteurs, Brigadefuehrer Freiherr Von Schade and Oberregierungsrat Nockemann and Oberregierungsrat Hasselbach, who were in charge of the SD Main Section (Oberabschnitt) at the time, I requested that I be released from the SD, because I wanted to go back to my former profession, particularly as the personal relation with the Chiefs of the Main Section in Duesseldorf was not bearable any more. There were so many intrigues.
Q. How long were you in Pretsch?
A. Until the morning of the 23d of June, 1941.
Q. Please, describe briefly the external events during your stay in Pretsch.
A. On arriving in Pretsch, Schmiedeberg, men had already been established there. The leaders were given quarters and billets in Schmiedeberg and other localities. I had to report to Dr. Rasch whom I saw on the 17th or 18th of June there. The setting up of units or detachments was done according to the lists of the members. I did not know the general situation; on the 17th or 18th of June, the leaders were sent to the leaders Training School in Pretsch.
Q. Who announced the reason for your appointment?
A. It was announced by Gruppenfuehrer Streckenbach, in front of all the leaders who were together in the Leaders' Training School in pretsch.
Q. What were you told about your future commitment there?
A. Streckenbach announced: From that moment on, You, as well as all subleaders and men who have been drafted will be under war regulations., which have to be observed by a soldier in the field. All of you are bound to the Fuehrer by oath. to inform you about just like every other soldier of the Fuehrer. You know about the measures you will have to expect according to war regulations. According to the Fuehrer Order, Einsatzgruppen are being formed and subdivided into Kommandos. These Einsatzgruppen will be subordinated to the Army commanders on the expected invasion of the East. Your task is the following: In cooperation with the Wehrmacht, the German Army, all elements which endanger the security are to be seized by you. political activists, functionaries, agents of the Communist party, and Jews. their men. The leaders of the Einsatzgruppen can make use of penal law and jurisdiction, according to the SS and police laws. In cooperation with the Wehrmacht, you are to see to it that personal discipline and good conduct will be maintained during the march and when carrying out the tasks and you will emphasize this."