THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed. BY DR. HEIM: sub commandos. How high was the strength of a Teilkommando normally? command.
Q That would have been twenty? commissioned men and officials and two to three drivers. On the Chart I have just described you can see this strength regulation.
Q What was the task of the Constant Liaison Officer in the AOK/6?
A The Constant Liaison Officer had to transmit the orders of AOK/6 to the Teilkommandos and had to transmit also reports of the Teilkommandos to AOk/6 via I/C. He also had to inform the orderly room and the office about reports with regard to changes of the location of the Teilkommandos, and on measures issued and directives issued by the Supreme Commander. The location reports of the Teilkommandos were sent to Group C via the AOK/6 by radio, and during the first period they did net arrive because the group had a different code key which was not known to us. troop?
A We didn't have any radio installation.
Q where were you, Witness, usually, where were you yourself? SK-4-A, in the registrar's office. to the SK-4-A itself? the I/C commanders of the division and were in constant exchange of news with the units which were part of the division. There they received direct orders from the AOK/6, and these orders were channeled through the SK-4-A according to the situation.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me. Dr. Heim, the reference to a division, is that to an Army division?
Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness, the Bench would like to know whether the reference to a division actually refers to a division of the Army? security division in the territory itself.
Q Was this division under the Armed forces command?
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q (By Dr. Heim) Was there any connection between the Teilkommandos and the remainders of SK-4-A?
A Namely the remainder of the SK-4-A consisted of the registrar's office and the food supply office. As long as the Teilkommandos were in the direct vicinity of the remainder of the SK-4-A, that is the orderly room, they had a possibility to contact them by courier, but there was no radio or other means of communication at the disposal of the command. The Teilkommandos via the I/C of the AOK/6 and further on via the I/C of the division could be contacted. During the advance, there was no possibility at all of a contact with the orderly room because of the distances. Also the bad roads hampered these communications considerably. The battle area had a part in it and also the actual situation of the fighting itself. as the situation arose?
A The Teilkommandos were formed as the situation arose. They were not a permanent unit. The changes made in the distribution are shown by the charts after all, and during my testimony I will refer to them again. the SK-4-A, taking especially into consideration your own personal position? In what area of the AOK/6 did the SK-4-A exert its activities?
A In the battle area of the A OK/6.
Q Well, what do you call the battle area? forty Km large which extends to the backward area, but once in a while that would go further in the rear even.
Q What activities did the SK-4-A normally exercise in this area? as well by the Army as by the civilian agencies. Furthermore the checking of elements by which the troop had suffered damage while they were advancing, either snipers or saboteurs or attacks by civilians, and so on and so forth, or by persons not belonging to the uniformed battle units. Furthermore, it was a task of the SK-4-A to make use of the record documents as far as Security Police measures were concerned, and in this connection the SK-4-A had also the duty of sorting out the documents, the documents first of all which pertained directly to military matters, that is within the scope of the AOK/6, and such documents as were to be transferred to the RSHA. Furthermore the SK-4-A was in charge of investigation and search for persons which had made the troops suffer damage, and furthermore they had to search for political activists, saboteurs and suspected elements who had taken part in activities against the troops. Search was also carried out on the part of search lists, and these search lists given to the SK were in line with those used by the killed troops when they reached into Germany. The SK-4 had to search for the persons. The further task of the SK-4 was to interrogate these persons, to establish the facts, and on that occasion the Production of the files and the drawing up of the files was done by the interrogators. Q Witness, what was the Security Police task? That was the Security Police Task of SK-4-A, but I want the properly speaking SD tasks, for instance, reporting on the occupied areas and so on and so forth.
A Yes, that was connected with it. That was the task of the interpreters of the chiefs of Subkrumandos.
rather deal with the Security Police tasks of the SK's. A while ago you stated that it was a task of the SK-4-A to interrogate persons. What happened, with these persons once they had been interrogated, that is usually? Kommandanturs or of units of the Armed Forces. Once they had been interrogated, the files and documents were submitted to the AOK/6. During the first period I did that personally most of the time, that is, I submitted them to the Supreme Commander, personally. The other files which had been drawn up at the divisional quarters were brought to the Army Commander by the competent command chief who was responsible and had proper Police training, and he submitted it either to the Supreme Commander or to the I/C in charge. In cases of which I personally know, the Supreme Commander, on the strength of the Fuehrer order, ordered the executions when the files were submitted and when he saw that there had been violation of international law and of the customs of war established beyond doubt in these files. you make any suggestions to him concerning executions?
A No, I wasn't even in a position to do so because I didn't have the proper police and legal training. Therefore, I didn't interfere in the interrogations either, because I never dealt with things like that. files to the Supreme Commander in AOK/6? established in the files they were immediately released, but that happened already with the units before the files were even submitted to the AOK/6. these crimes where it was not found out they were not guilty?
A The OAOK/6 ordered the execution of all such persons for which the files established that they had violated the customs of war and the international legal prescriptions.
Q Who actually carried out these executions? the Army units involved, on the strength of the order issued by the Supreme Commander of the AOK/6. issued by the Supreme Commander? orderly room of the SK-4-A, and from these files I gathered knowledge concerning their contents, in as far as it was in German and I could read it. In the cases where larger circles of persons were involved there were names, lists in the files, with so-called final reports. These lists were attached to the files. out by the AOK/6? of files submitted to him, discussed the matters with the legal officer of the AOK/6, checked them and then made his own decision. In the divisional headquarters the SK leader had to submit the files to the I-C officer, and this I-C of the divisional headquarters discussed them again with the I-C of the AOK/6. the AOK/6? of the armed forces or that they had done sniper activities or other atrocities, furthermore, persons convicted of espionage or sabotage, also civilians who, contrary to the directives, were in the possession of arms, and also for participation in and abetting of such violations. For all these activities public posters had to be posted up by the AOK Commander, by which the population was informed that these crimes were liable of capital punishment.
Q Didn't you have any misgivings at the time that these orders ordering executions were contrary to the international law and that carrying them out you could make yourself punishable? law, especially as the Russian adversary did not consider himself bound to the customs of war and to the international law. Furthermore, these shootings were not coarried out in any arbitrary manner. On the contrary, in line with the international law in force at that time, every case was individually checked and only on the strength of this examination the decisions were made. Even today I am of the opinion that this procedure was quite in line with international law. AOK/6 concerning the carrying out of the executions as ordered? discipline for the executions, which could only be carried out in a military court martial manner. He ordered that a shooting command was to be formed, that there should be two rifles always for every person to be executed, that the command should be conducted in accordance with military rules. That pistols or a shot in the neck be used as the Russians did, was prohibited in the most severe manner in accordance with the regulations dealt out by the Supreme Command. The details of the execution were fixed by the Supreme Commander, and instead of the five rifles per person as was ordered by a military commander for the execution of a German convicted it was lowered to two rifles per person only. carry them out in exactly the same way as they had been issued by the Supreme commander?
mentioned. Reichenau towards the tasks of the Security Police as you have just referred to them? and more specifically by the reports given to him by the I-C and the special detachment of Ukrainians, was very well informed concerning all the developments and concerning the activities of political groups, sabotage units and attacks against the troop, enemy propaganda, and in the interests of the security of the troops the Supreme Commander, of course, made it a very strong point to eliminate these circles and to prevent these incidents. At all times Von Reichenau stressed the most intense persecution and immediately carried out the punishments publicly posted up for such crimes. With regards to that the Supreme Commander in his daily orders had informed all the officers and soldiers of regulations of conduct of a very positive nature. One of these orders was so stringent that I still remember it. The wording was, "To all officers of my staff and to all officers and enlisted men under my command: I prohibit for all officers and soldiers not members of a commando carrying out these orders that they stand around as spectators and loiterers" - and this word (loiterers ' was so stringent "when the commando carry out their difficult tasks and thus prevent them from doing them properly". The wording went on to say that even every officer that loitered around the executions as a spectator would be put in that category.
4a? to be directed? investigation either directly or via the I-C files which were kept and contained the whole command, were submitted to him by the sub-commands via the I-C of the division to I-C of AOK6. The local reports of the sub-commander had to be sent to Group C and in regular intervals a report on the activity of the Kommando had to be given also. Furthermore, the enemy espionage material had to be secured for AOK 6. The connection with Group C was only possible via Army radioo because we had no radio installations of our own. Furthermore, the Supreme Commander requested reports concerning the condition of the territories in the Ukrainian area. In the same way, such reports were made for Group C. Every commander had to make a report also on the situation.
Q Who in your command had been appointed for this reporting? and also the SKD Sub-Kommando leaders. SD 4a done? situation in their area and also about the exploitation of documents they had captured; enemy documents which were meant for the RSHA and requested by this office were transferred to Group C via the orderly room. Reports on the activities were collected by the Liaison commander in the AOK 6. according to the report of the headquarters of the OAK 6.
sub-kommando, the safe blasting command, was ordered to go to Luck. on page 79 of the German text. There we have Document No-2938, and it is Exhibit 44 of the prosecution.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: On Page 76 you can follow it in the English. 1,854 by the SK 4a. Witness, is this list correct?
A The documents can lead into a misunderstanding. The figures are wrong.
Q And how far are the figures wrong? forces and of the police took a considerable part in the executions.
Q What sub-kommando was ordered to Sokol? a sub-kommand under the command of Hanf. The strength was one leader and six men and three drivers.
Q On whose request was the assignment made?
Q What persons were involved when the measures were carried out? by the armed forces as snipers, as participants in attacks against the armed forces, persons, who at the very beginning of the assignment had formed guerilla groups.
Q Who had ordered the executions referred to in the document?
Q Did you direct all these executions yourself? 30 each. The others were carried out by units of the armed forces and by the Ukrainian local Security Detachment in the Sokol area. As our personnel strength was very low, the SK 4a, that is, the sub-commands attached to it, as a rule would not have been in a position to carry all these executions in so short a time, as they are listed in this report.
In the Sokal area, 6 or 7 localities were involved in these executions. did the Commander in Chief decide to issue these orders? day in the Sokal area by snipers and attacks in the dark. The bodies were mutilated in a most horrible way. I personally even saw that five German soldiers, shot in the back, had their backs slit on an iron gate and one morning they were found like that. From further reports, I also remember that Pro-German Ukrainians were killed by terror groups by being put alive into boiling water and when the German troops marched in a few hours later, they found these people partly living. Those were a few occurrences picked out of the many reports which we received at Sokol.
Q Were you morally depressed in some way by these occurrences? these occurrences because the most primitive people only did such things and, therefore, I considered the measures for the punishment of these criminals completely justified.
Q What kommando was dispatched to Luck?
AA sub-kommando of which Dr. Funk and Jantzen were in charge was dispatched to Luck, six men, and three drivers, and also the safe blasting command, in charge of which was von Radetsky.
Q On whose orders was this distribution made? Chief of the OAK 6. Luck? put on the march to Luck, and also the safe blasting command.
4a and what was the strength of this remainder? preter, Mueller, and 7 men in the orderly room remained in Sokal.
Q Was another command of the SK 4a active in Hracow? area. measures referred to in the document we have mentioned, namely, the shooting of 1,160, plus 300, plus 20 Jews in Luck? on-
THE PRESIDENT: What page?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Page 81, second paragraph from the top.
A (Continued) According to the reports we had received later, atrocities had been committed while German troops marched
Q Witness, will you please start again with your answer? later stage, atrocities of the Russians had been found out when the German troops marched into Luck. Four German pilots had been split up alive with oxygen welding machines. 2,000 Ukrainians, about 2,000, had been shot in the jails, and a few of then were still alive. A retaliation measure was ordered by the Commander in Chief of the OAK 6, Field Marshal von Reichenau; under the leaders of the Higher SS and Police Leaders or by a plenipotentiary of that Higher SS and Police Leader, it was carried out. ordered by the Commander in Chief? such a measure?
be called in?
Q On whose directive was this measure carried out then? in agreement with the Higher SS and Police Leader Jeckeln. first time?
A In August, 1941, the beginning of August. I should say.
Q Now what was you next aim on the march?
A On the same day; that was the 7th or 8th of July, 1941. It must have been one of those two days. have just mentioned, were they already carried out when you arrived at Luck?
Q Did you aim in Luck?
Q Why not? was in bed with a high fever. A staff physician ordered that I be transferred to the hospital during the same night, because I was suspected of having contracted typhoid fever and a nervous breakdown. I was transported to Lublin and put in quarantine. there?
Q Witness, when did you come back to the command?
Q Where was the SK 4a during that period?
Q Who was in charge of the SK 4a in your absence? was Liaison Commander with the Higher SS and Police Leaders and for the Group C. He had been assigned and he was with the Higher SS and Police Leaders at Luck. The Group C had Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Baier, who had been sent to the SK. if soo what kind of changes? location of the Einsatzgruppe C. The official exchange of orders with the AOK 6 was taken over by the Group Staff. Radetzky personally remained in contact with the Department Economy of the AOK 6 for reasons of reporting. The Liaison Commander Haefner received the assignment to report on negotitations with regard to the Ukrainian question. to remain in contact with the AOK 6 or with the 29th Army Group, which was under the command of the AOK 6. The sub-kommandos were attached to the front line divisions toward the north and towards the southeast; the orderly room remained at Shitomir. same location result? 6 did not exist any longer, because the Group C wanted to avoid a duplication at the same location and, therefore, they had prohibited all direct contact of the SK 4a with the AOK 6. Einsatzgruppe C from that moment onward was responsible to the AOK 6 for the affairs of the SK 4a.
Q What other changes could you tell us, apart from that? detachments of the Waffen SS, 55 to 60 men with three leaders of the Waffen SS had been ordered to the Kommando. Police, which had been attached to this Kommando?
the Sub-Kommando South for Security Police Tasks and guerilla fighting.
Q To whom was the Waffen SS attached? sub-Kommando North. join the SK 4a? and military task and especially for guerilla combatting.
Q Under whose orders were they? mitted by the responsible Army commander for the Guerilla Warfare. The Waffen SS in its command was independent, also, as far as administration and food supplies were concerned. Security Police or the Waffen SS that had been attached to this group? ponsible tetachment commander of the armed forces in their assignment. As far as personnel was concerned, the Waffen SS was also independent. The Security Police had been submitted to the orders of the sub-kommando leader and they were not independent units. tion of SK 4a and did they result in such a reorganization?
Q On whose initiative was that carried out?
Q At what period and how did these reorganizations take place? marched to the front line areas received orders from the armed forces and the same applied to the Security Police and Waffen SS. its location in Shitomir?
region east of Radomiszl and Malyn. The same applied to the Waffen SS, a little more northeast in the same area. The other sub-kommando was assigned southeast of Shitomir in the region Wassilkow Byala Zerkjew, together with the Security Police.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, now I should submit Document No. 2 and have the witness comment about it, and, therefore, I dare to suggest to the Tribunal that maybe we should start our recess now.
THE PRESIDENT: The suggestion is welcomed and the Tribunal will recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HEIM (for the defendant Blobel): With the permission of the Tribunal I will continue with the questioning of the defendant Blobel. We stopped talking about August 1941, and I take the liberty, Your Honors, in this connection to submit the Document Blobel No. 2 as Exhibit No. 2. It is the second photostatic copy in Document Book 1 for the defendant Blobel, and it is headed, "Division and Subordination in Sonderkommando 4-A at the end of August 1941." BY DR. HEIM: front of you, the division and subordination of SK-4-A at the end of August 1941. leader is mentioned. From his a channel of commend exists to the Ukrainian Battalion and the police regiments, and an exchange of information with the AOK 6. And finally, a channel of command of Einsatzgruppe C. Subordinate to AOK 6 was the Section C, which was at the same level, concerning orders, as Einsatzgruppe C. Between Section C of the AOK 6 and Einsatzgruppe C, there was an information service and also a channel of command. The SK 4-A, as the line from Einsatzgruppe C to SK 4-A shows, received the instructions and orders immediately from Einsatzgruppe C whereby the channel of command was between the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe C and the Chief of the SK 4-a. As the chart also shows, the two sub-kommandos of the Security Police were in the area of the territory of the Army Commander, and also the Waffen-SS. Immediately subordinate to the AOK 6 were the security divisions with the Ukrainian militia in the army units, the local commandants throughout the territory, together with the Ukrainian security units which were attached to them. On the left side of the chart it shows that the orderly room consisted of three officers, six *CO's and privates, one cook and helper, and also one or two interpreters.
mentioned? territory. In the south it was the 29th Army Corps; in the north, a front - or a security division. The sub-kommandos had to discuss, screen, interrogate, make out documents, and to carry out executive measures, together with the Army, or units with whom they worked. At the same time, the sub-kommandos helped with the combating of partisans, together with the army, the local commanders, and Ukrainian militia in the Army units.
Q At whose order? and Police Leader; over the Gruppe C or through G-2 of the AOK 6, via G-2 of the Division.
Q Which units took part? Army units, and the units under the Higher SS and Police Leader Jeckeln. There were police regiments of the regular police and battalions of the Ukrainian militia, who were subordinate to the Higher SS and Police Leader. and said his name was Jeckeln. Can you give us a characteristic of Jeckeln? way of using his power, which extended down to the Security Police, and, beyond that, to the local commanders. Jeckeln did not allow any contradiction. His manner was inconsideration of others; given orders should only be reported when they had actually been executed.... His instructions were supported through the SS and Police Court of which he was the presiding judge.
Q Were the Ukrainian militia units the same as the Army units?
A No; there were Ukrainian security units with the local commandanturas; secondly, Ukrainian militia units within the Army - that is, with the Security Division of the Army. And Ukrainian militia units who were subordinate and attached to the Police Department of the Higher SS and police leader. the German text, which is the Document Exhibit No.71, Document NO2952.
DR. HOCHWALD: Page 16 of the English Document Book, Your Honor. BY DR. HEIM:
(continuing) It says there, I quote: "In Shitomir itself, Gruppenstab and Vorauskommando 4-A in cooperation have up to date shot, all in all, approximately 400 Jews, Communists and informants for the NKWD. Thus, Einsatzkommando 4-A has carried out 2531 executions."
Witness, will you please comment on these reports?
A I was not present during this event. It happened when I was absent, at the time I was at the hospital in Lublin. In this connection, however, I want to point out that this report is not correct, and that there is a discrepancy in it. In the Situation Report No. 37 of 29 July 1941, Document No. 2952, Exhibit 71, the execution of 400 persons in Shitomir is mentioned, by the SK 4-A. In the Operation Report No. 47, of 9 August 1941, Document 2947, Exhibit 82, from the Book II-C - there it also says that in Shitomir 400 people were executed.
DR. HOCHWALD: Page 66, Your Honors. BY THE WITNESS:
(continuing) Therefore, in the Situation Report two weeks later the same figure is mentioned.
DR. HEIM: Your Honors, may I state where you can find the two documents the witness just mentioned? The Document NO-2952, Exhibit 71,is contained in Document Book II-C of the Prosecution, on page 18 of the German text. The Document 2947, Exhibit 82, is contained in Document Book II-C, on page 72 of the German text.
DR. HOCHWALD: The first document, Your Honors, is on page 16 of the English; and the second one is on page 66. BY DR. HEIM: 2531 executions? in Document Book II-C, 2934 Exhibit 78; Document Book II-A, 2936, Exhibit 44; Document Book II-C, 2952, Exhibit 71. Adding up the figures in the documents, results in the figure 2494, while the document says 2952. Exhibit 71 mentions the figure 2531 as a total of those figures. But in the figures mentioned last, shootings by the Army, the Police, the Ukrainian Units, and SK 4-A are all put together and reported here. territory as it developed after the German Army had occupied it. in the population could be felt. Some were in favor of the Germans, and some strongly disapproved of the Germans. The armed civilian resistance was carried out by civilian agents of the Russian NKWD who organized it and carried out by them. Civilian snipers, partisans, spies, agents, saboteurs of traffic, railroads and streets, of communications and army property, could be found. Russian agents formed resistance groups against the German army. Partisans and guerrilla bands were active. Excesses took place, murders and arson were committed, they tried also to destroy the harvest and the machines. The Russians helped these partisans and guerrillas and suddenly a great number of people moved from the east to the west. Parachutists acted as agents.
division of this territory from a military point of view? of the security of the units had taken place, were large territories. From the front to the rear they were divided in several sectors: the fighting area which varied had a depth of 20 to 40 kilometers and more; the rear area where the new .fighting units and the supply units moved; then came the Rear Army territory, and then followed the operational territory. All together from the front up to the rear it extended over 300 to 500 kilometers.