Q What was the population of Smolensk when you stopped there?
AAbout the 20th. Smolensk was lost on the 16th, the southern part of the city, but the northern part of the city belonging to the competency of my army was not reached immediately. North of the Dnjepr River the Germans only arrived a few days later, and arrived at the outskirts of the city. population? time following that. tarried long enough to care for the civilian population? north of these. It belongs, as far as I think, to White Ruthenia, but I think Smolensk does not belong to it any more, but I am not quits sure. point? borders. It was left to my initiative.
Q Just a moment, perhaps I can clarify this. You told us of how you and your command interested yourselves in the affairs of the civilian population.
Q Yes. Now, I want to know which civilian population this was.
A Those were the farmers in the country around there. For example, after they had heard about our presence and it was talked about, Russian farmers traveled, or rather rode on horseback all day in order to ask us for some decision, for example, for differences about the distribution of cattle of the individual collective farms.
Q How long were you there?
Q How many were there in your command?
is about 15 men had gone to Welisch. wasn't centralized in a town? farms existed and were far away from each other. required for the trip in order to reach you?
A Not days. I remember one occasion when I was told that a farmer rode all day, ever since early in the morning, in order to be present in the afternoon at our troop which had an interpreter and an officer, he wanted to be there to get a decision.
Q And what was the decision which you rendered? early in the morning, and he came to you for a decision. Now, you remember all the details, how far he travelled and what time he got up in the morning. Certainly you would remember what the decision was. collected by some men.
Q By what man, by some Germans? land it be required that this ox be given to that group of partisans, and I made an investigation about this and we found that they weren't partisans at all who wanted to have this ox. Because of its good quality they particularly keen on having this particular animal. They were men of another collective farm further away who wanted to utilize the situation in order to be able to get a really good ox. They were, of course, forced to return the ox, and apart from that I left them, the persons concerned, to fight it out between them.
to Nebe? carry out any kind of anti-Jewish action? What other activity did Sonderkommando 7-a carry out? in the country, did not order or carry out any Anti-Jewish Action. Apart from the band reconnaissance, I only did what which I had always done in my life. That is, I did administrative work. The agriculture was set going again. I had asked at the AOK 9 that the local inhabitants be asked by leaflets which were thrown down, by planes to carry out the harvest. The cattle running around loose in the woods was distributed among the Kolchosen.
The harvest work was organized and small factories started to work. Education and schooling, religious life, medical care of the population, family life, etc., was reported on. Apart from that, within a short time, as the only authority in the whole district, the population, even asked us to deal with their private differences, particularly concerning the distribution of cattle. An officer with an interpreter for that purpose had to be at their disposal every day. asked my men to behave in the most correct manner. The inhabitants on the Loswitha Lake, for example, brought me all kinds of fowl, etc., and did not want to be paid for it and emphasized that it was a point of honor to them to be able to give me such presents. They also asked me to permit them to give me the harvest reef, and this happened.
During these weeks occasional individual shootings occurred. These were only armed partisans and Communist agents who had asked the farmers to destroy the stores of the harvest. In all, during the approximately four weeks for the entire Sonderkommando 7a at the most twenty partisans and saboteurs were shot, and the shooting, apart from actual fighting, was only done after detailed interrogation and examination of the subject matter. These shootings, I considered them end still consider them to me to be fully justified. Apart from that the interrogations often had the result that the persons concerned, were released because either it was proved that they were innocent or it was proved that the evidence against them was not sufficient. the town of Smolensk, until I was transferred in the middle of August. In the previous weeks, that is from Wilna to Smolensk, no such shootings occurred because at that time we had 'not been assigned to fight against partisans. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is the population of Smolensk; what was it at that time?
had been taken by some Russians, is that right? to come to you for a decision.
A Oh, I only understand now. The farmer did, yes.
Q Yes. Now, you dropped everything, forgot all about the war, and started out to find this ox, is that right?
Q All right. Now, did you find the ox?
Q There did you find the ox? this pretext, end we made investigations about this.
Q And did you find the people who had taken the ox?
Q And were they Russians or not?
Q They were Russians?
Q And they had in effect stolen this ox?
Q Yes, and what did you do to the Russians?
A I already said, I left them to fight it out. I left the two groups to fight it out.
Q Well then, you didn't render any decision?
Q But you left it between them to fight it out, you say?
A Well, I didn't have a prison. What could I have done with the people?
Q Then you didn't render any decision?
Q All right, what else did you do for the civilian population? You told us that you helped the civilian population. This is one kind of case you told us about, about finding an ox, and then you left it to them to fight it out. Now, what else did you do for the civilian population? could survive the winter. Two things were necessary for this, a house and something to eat.
Q Well, they had a house; they had their house.
A Partly. Some houses had been destroyed owing to the war.
AAnd these people do not act without orders. It was like this. If a Russian lost his house, he did riot have the courage to go into another house which had been vacated by people who-let us say - had fled. These men had to try to get a decision from some authority to permit them to move into these houses. These people came to us. Another casehouses which had. been abandoned?
A Yes. They were not satisfied until they had this decision in writing.
Q Yes. You would make up the decision in writing?
Q You were authorized to do that?
Q All right. And you were there ten days? and oxen?
to have one item of cattle for their own use on their collective farms. That was their source of food for the entire winter, but they did not dare to do this becausepopulation of that area? during those ten days than in the previous ones.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_16_1_Hoxsie (Juelich)
THE WITNESS: However, on the Loswitha Lake in particular, if I may add this, I had also shootings carried out. There was a troop of men who had come from the Russian side, the East side, and had been sent to ask the farmers not to bring in the harvest and that the harvest be destroyed in order to make it difficult for the troop to feed themselves. In this case, after a detailed examination by experts, When the facts had been established, these three men whom we had seized I had shot.
THE PRESIDENT: Was this also during this ten days?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: So that you didn't devote all your time to making decisions for the population; you also continued your regular job?
THE WITNESS: Of course, your Honor, I said that before.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed.
BY DR. LUMMERT: lasted about ten days. Do you mean the stay on the Loswitha Lake? Sloboda for a few days and then fora few days to Baklanowa. In these two places did you carry out the same activity? conditions were such that it was not possible. imately after your leaving Smolensk your Sonderkommando 7a altogether at the most had about 20 partisans and saboteurs shot, and you then said that in the previous weeks, namely between Wilna and Smolensk, no such shootings occurred, because at the time you had not been assigned to do partisan combatting. May I now ask on one occasion during these five weeks were there any shootings?
A Yes, there was a spy. It was concerning one we found in Witebsk.
Q At the time was there a detailed interrogation before the shooting?
31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_16_2_Hoxsie (Juelich)
Q And, the spy was found guilty? stay in Russia? commando in Baklanowa northeast of Smolensk. There the activity of the partisans could have been fortified by fully armed Cosack units who filtered through the front line and they had increased to such an extent that we could not move any more, so that with a few telephone operators of the Army we had to settle down in one locality. The situation in the middle of August had the result that the ALK/9 ordered my kommando back to Welisch where strong partisan groups as well existed? but where regular Army units were at our disposal to fight them. Almost simultaneously I got a very urgent radio message with the order to return to Berlin immediately when my successor came. My successor was Sturmbannfuehrer Steimle according to this radio message. That same day I radioed Nebe and asked him even before my successor arrived to be allowed to leave, because the reasons for the urgent recall were not obvious to me, and I Add not want to start a new task, namely the task in Welisch. Nebe wired that he agreed to this and appointed as my deputy Obversturmfuehrer Foltis whom we knew from Minsk and who was the senior in rank and also a well-trained officer, and therefore was the only one suitable for this. where the road to Smolensk and Welisch divides. From there the kommando and Foltis continued to Welisch and I traveled to Smolensk with my driver. beautiful lake during those four weeks approximately after leabing Witebask until my recall, I consciously used in order to let myself and people get over the unworthy impression of the shootings in Minsk and Witebask. I felt exactly that the members of my kommando would be grateful 31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_16_3_Hoxsie (Juelich) to me for this, and also that no executions would he carried out.
They were particularly grateful for this. We started every day with sports. In the evenings I had songs sung at the campfire. My men made a particularly nice evening for me when I left. recall, was visited by the physician of Einsatzgruppe B. I talked with him about the complex of questions, shootings and morale effects on the men of the execution kommandos. He agreed with my view but he mentioned that Nebe was already dissatisfied with me because of staying close to the beautiful lakes and was ironical about it. Soon after that I was recalled.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Doctor. BY THE PRESIDENT: the mission, what did you do to ease their minds and their spirits. You have told us what you did when they were camped on the lakes, that you allowed them to participate in sports, that you had campfires, etc. What did you do during the period they were actually engaged in the shooting to ease their spirits? of my men, ordo you mean my conscience? men when you were stationed or camped on the lake, that you gave them sports, that they sang songs. Well, the work had been done; the executions were over. taking place to comfort yourmen. Did you do these same things, did you give them sports, did you do anything to help them? and that during the execution-
31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_16_4_Hoxsie (Juelich) every shooting, after every volley, you have the men sit down, you would talk to them and reason with them and tell them they were executing the Fuehrer order, etc. We recall that, but what did you do for them physically and recreationally to help them?
A I believe I had no other possibilities, your Honor. In any case, my assistance extended only to those things which I mentioned. about their clothing?
A That is natural, your Honor. I considered that the normal duties of any kommando leader. nerves? There was nothing that you did outside of what you told us, these little lectures that gave right on the field of execution?
Q There was nothing else that you did?
A No. On the whole I merely tried to establish a good spirit of comradeship in order to avoid any other differences. BY DR. LUMMERT: Welisch and Smolensk you separated from your Sonderkommando 7a and you yourself traveled on to Smolensk with your driver. What did you do there and where did you go to after you got to Smolensk?
A In Smolensk I reported to Nebe that I was leaving. He treated me in a reserved manner without stating anything about the reasons of my recall. I remained in Smolensk overnight and was mostly together with Regierungsrat Ehlers whom I know very well, who, as far as I remember, was the Chief of Department IV in the staff of Nebe, and he told me that he did not like Nebe at all. He asked me to mention in Berlin that Nebe made fantastic reports of imagination, adding zeros to the numbers of executions, etc. He, Ehlers, had disagreed very strongly with Nebe about this. The following day I left Smolensk and went to Witebask. I 31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_16_5_Hoxsie (Juelich) stayed there overnight.
The following day I traveled towards Wilna. The distance to Wilna I covered in two days, and from there I traveled to Kowno. There we had to repair my car, and on the second day of our stay we travelled on to Koenigsberg. I stayed there overnight for the last time before going to Berlin, and thus reached Berlin on the 9th day after my departure from Baklanowa. This was approximately on 25 or 26 August. Security Serbice in the East? fuehrer Streckenbach. He did not tell me in a very clear manner why I had been recalled so suddenly.
31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_17_1_Biolsi (Juelich) He first talked a great deal about work but then indicated that Nebe had not been satisfied with me. I told him about my work in Russia, and, most of all, talked with great concern about the disadvantageous effect of this shooting order, and about the moral results which the executions had caused among the men in the kommandos. I also reported to him about the things Sturmbannfuehrer Ehlers had told me about the untruthfulness and incorrectness of Nebe's reports. Streckenbach did not say much, but seemed very depressed. In Berlin I took up again my work as personal referent in Office I of the RSHA. which the prosecution charges you and Sonderkommando 7-a. On the other hand, you sometimes did not mention executions with which the Prosecution has charged you. I now ask you... Can you assure us expressly that concerning the executions by your Sonderkommando 7-a, you have said the full truth, and did not leave anything out?
A Yes. On oath I assure you that during my time with my Sonderkommando 7-a I did not command any executions apart from those I mentioned.
DR. LUMMERT: address a few questions to you which concern documents which the prosecution has used as evidence, not numbered, the socalled Situation Reports. Before I do this I would like to introduce two documents and evidence. They are Documents 5 and 6. I would like to give some explanations about these documents. The Prosecution has charged thedefendant Blume according to a number of Situation Reports numbered USSR, of the Chief of the Security Police and SD, and has introduced those documents. It is difficult to get an impression, and you can only get a survey if all the situation reports of that time are used and lo ked at; and concerning the defendant Blume the Situation Reports from the end of June until the beginning of September 1941, that is, the Situation Reports Nos. 8 31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_17_2_Biolsi (Juelich) to 73 - at least 20 of them have been used as exhibits by the Prosecution against various defendants here.
The other 40 reports I offered as exhibits myself. A small technical difficulty had to be overcome here, because those Situation Reports which the Prosecution did not introduce have only come to the Defense in one copy to look at, in Room 219 of the Palace of Justice. For that reason, in order to simplify matters, in Document Blume No. 5, I give excerpts of these more than 40 Situation Reports. All these parts which might be of importance in judging the Sonderkommando and its leader at the time, the defendant Blume, might be of importance here. When discussing the matter with Mr. Ferencz I assured myself that the Prosecution has no objections against this. Of course, we agree on it that when introducing the Document Blume No. 5, the Situation Reports mentioned in there be used in their full extent, and for that reason that every party concerned may refer to any part of the Situation Reports, not only to those parts and excerpts which I have mentioned as excerpts in the Document Blume No. 5.
I now ask the Tribunal to look at Document Blume No. 5 in the manner as I have offered it, and to accept it. The document is in Document Book I, pages 30 to 60.
The next Document, Blume No. 6, is the one of real interest. In it all the Situation Reports Nos. 8 to 73,-- everything is complied with in a clear manner which, on the one hand, the Prosecution and on the other hand the Defense - wants to prove concerning the defendant Blume. I ask the Tribunal to note the notes on page 61 of Document Book I. It will not be necessary, I presume, that I read these preliminary remarks into the record. It is particularly important to mention No. 4 of the preliminary remarks. This preliminary remark says that those parts of the reports of events which the Prosecution quoted as incriminating evidence against defendant Blume, in the Document Blume No. 6, are indicated with a blue line, and are numbered, 31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_17_3_Biolsi (Juelich) in blue, 0 to 6. The evidence of the Prosecution concerning these points is indicated with red figures, 1 to 6. I now ask the Tribunal to accept, Document Blume No. 6. It is in Document Book I, pages 61 to 86.
Q (By Dr. Lummert) Witness, I now come to my next question. The Prosecution has put it to you, that Sonde kommando 7-a killed Jewish and Communist party functionaries on 3 July in Vilna. This is Document No. No-4537, Exhibit 116, mentioned by the Prosecution in the English record pages 154 to 155, in the German page 160. The Quotation mentioned can be found by the Tribunal in the Document Blume No. 6 on page 3 at the bottom, Document Book page 63. It is indicated with a blue figure "1". Book in front of you?
Q Witness, what can you state about this charge? Minsk. My Sonderkommando 7-a could have carried out these shootings only on 1 or 2 July, but I can only testify again under oath that I did not order or carry out any such shootings in Vilna at the time. Only two explanations can be made to this report: Either there is a mixup with a report of Einsatzgruppe 9 which was in Vilna at the time -- the mixup may have happened through Nebe, who was in Berlin when the Situation Report can be explained in the following manner, and I think it is more probable: his superior, Heydrich, the Chief of the RSHA, and tried very hard to follow all his orders and to comply with them. For that reason he made these reports to Heydrich himself, and altered the reports of the subkommandos insofar as he thought it necessary in order to make a good impression in Berlin. Regierungsrat Ehlers told me about this. When I 31 Oct 1947_A_MSD_17_4_Biolsi (Juelich) returned to Germany in the middle of August via Smolensk, as I have already stated, at the time I had reported to Nebe from Vilna that Lithuanian national units already before the arrival of the German troops had shot Communists and Jews with Communist views.
Nebe probably wanted to report something positive about Vilna concerning executions by Sonderkommando 7-a, and for that reason simply said that my kommando had carried out the shootings in Lithuania --shootings of Communists and Jewish Communist functionaries. This was all imaginary. In any case, such an exception of party functionaries in Vilna I would certainly remember. They would have been the first functionaries of that kind whom we came across. We would have indicated them in detail, and I would have made a report about it. All this did not happen. Apart from that Vilna was a large city which was not destroyed. It had normal life so that shooting of people and getting rid of corpses would have been a difficult problem, the solution of which I certainly would still remember. I can only repeat, and certify again, that I and my Sonderkommando 7-a did not carry out any such shootings in Vilna.
Tribunal the figures in red, figure No. 1 in document Book Blume No. 6 on page 3, notes 3 and 5, document pages 62, 63 and 65. On page 62, it says:
"That attempts of anti-communists and anti-Jewish circles to clear themselves had been intensified." intensifying? shootings which the Lithuanians had carried out already before the arrival of the Germans, also about other police measures taken by us. The expression "intensify" is a typical Nebe expression.
Q May I return to document book No. 6, on page 63, the points indicated in I in red show that Einsatz Commando 9 was already in Vilna at the time and that Sonderkommando 7 a became free owing to the arrival of Einsatz Commando 9 in Minsk. Finally page 65 shows that the Einsatz Commando 9 already on the 29 of June moved on to Vilna, that is at the end of page 65. Einsatz Commando 9 at the latest must have arrived on the 30 of June or 31 July, that is about the same time when Sonderkommando 7a arrived. Therefore, one could only draw the conclusion that Einsatz Kommando 9 carried out executions of communists for this area in so far as Nebe has invented them. I now refer to document No. 2937, Exhibit 57 of the Prosecution, as mentioned in the English record on page 155 to 157 and in the German record on page 160-162. The Tribunal will find the quotation concerning the document Blume No. 6 on page 9, document No. page 69. It is indicated with a blue "two". Since the quotation concerns two different points I have noted 2a and 2b.
I first deal with point 2b because this point still concerns Vilna and I quote from the bottom of page 69:
"In Vilna the Einsatz Commando there liquidated 321 Jews up to the 8th of July." Witness, what do you say to this charge of the Prosecution? kommando 7a had nothing to do with these 321 shootings. I had left on the 3rd of July very early in the morning. I left Vilna on the 8th of July. I was already on my way between Minsk and Polosk. However, during those days and already since the end of June or since the first of July the Einsatz kommando 9 bad been in Vilna as the local Einsatz Commando there. This execution can, therefore, only have been carried out by Einsatz Commando 9. Tribunal's attention to the red figure "2b" in document Book Blume No. 6, on the pages 262-263-264-265-266-267 and also 71, 73, and 77. This shows that from the end of June until the end of July Einsatz Commando 9 was the local Einsatz Commando in Vilna. The case is so obvious that I believe the record will not have to contain any further details on this. I now come to point 2a and ask the Tribunal to open page 9 in document book Blume No. 6 again, that is document book 69.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Lummert, before we enter into this other discussion which I presume might take up some time I think it might be well to announce the recess. morning at nine-thirty o'clock.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours November 4, 1947)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: For the information of all concerned, this Tribunal which has heretofore been known as Military Tribunal II-A is now Military Tribunal II, this designation, resulting from General Order No. 100, dated 12 September, 1947. The original Tribunal II having yesterday completed Case No. 4 and being dissolved, this heretofore Military Tribunal II-A will be and is now Military Tribunal II. All records and all reports will now carry the designation Military Tribunal II. You may proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - (Continued)
DR. LUMMERT: Your Honor, last Friday I had asked the Witness Blume about his education and his professional training and about his professional career in addition, and after that I asked him about the activities during the seven weeks of his assignment in the East. At the end of this session on Friday I had arrived at a number of questions in accordance with the situation reports which the prosecution used as evidence material against the Defendant Blume.
May I make a short remark here? The interpreter interpreted the word "Ereignismeldung" with "situation report", whereas it should have been "operation report". This is what I would like to say. In my opinion, it is the only correct translation. It should report events.
The translation which is used in the document books themselves "operational situation report" is not quite correct. There is a mix-up between activity, "Tatigkeit zum Lagebericht" which is activity, and situation reports, which also are contained in some reports. These activity and situation reports were issued monthly, but the reports of events were issued daily. I would suggest that the word, "Ereignismeldung" or the term "Ereignismeldung" should be translated "reports of events".
On Friday I had arrived at Count II-A of the indictment. I would ask the Tribunal to look at Page 9 of Blume document, No. 6, which is in Document Book I, page 69. If the Tribunal will be so kind as to read a few lines which indicated in blue, II-A, then I will not read this into the record. This particular sentence is on Page 69 of Blume Document Book I, It is marked in blue II-A. It is a report of events of 13 July, and the prosecution has charged the Defendant Blume with having participated in the shooting of 1050 Jews in Minsk.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you attempt to establish by this explanation of II-A?
DR. LUMMERT: Your Honor, I intend to put a question to the Defendant Blume immediately in connection with this II-A, and I only want to explain this. I want to give a preliminary explanation. The charge of the prosecution is to the effect that the Defendant Blume had taken part in this shooting of 1050 Jews in Minsk, as well as in other daily executions. These executees had been taken from a civilian internment camp, which the Einsatzgruppe, so it says in this report, interrogated, together with the regular police. BY DR. LUMMERT:
Q Witness, what have you to say to this? by saying that Nebe talked to me on the 6th of July, in the afternoon, and that until that day I had never executed Jews, and that he gave the direct order to Obersturmfuehrer Foltes to carry out an execution the next morning as a retaliation measure against the burning of houses by Jews, and that he ordered me to report to him the carrying out of the execution.