A. I spoke of my first kommando and I said that the number mentioned in the documents may have amounted to 500 and that these figures to a large extent were due to actiona -
Q. Just answer my question.
A. May I ask that the question be repeated?
Q. I was just looking at the figures you just gave me. It was about 300 to 400 people that were killed, is that correct?
6 Nov 1947_A_MSD_22_1_Biolsi (Hildesheimer) hundred, of the Special Kommando 7-a, if all those are included who were shot in connection with units of the Wehrmacht or other such individual actions. order? order them. If investigation results would be submitted to me I would confirm or modify them. How many there are, I do Not know. The figure can't be very high -- but I don't think this is the question in this case. I did confirm judgments and sentences after I had the chance to examine them. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Let's get this clear, now. Did you ever order an execution?
Q How many did you order?
Q Was the number so many that you can't recall?
Q Then why don't you remember? Is the matter of an execution a pretty serious business?
Q Please answer the question. Is the matter of an execution a very serious business?
Q Is the matter of snuffing out the lives of people serious?
Q All right. Now, you say you don't remember the number. And it isn't because the number was so great. You exclude that. a grim and serious business. Why, then, wouldn't you remember how?
6 November 1947_A_MSD_22_2_Biolsi (Hildesheimer) many executions you ordered? Honor, or the number of judges' sentences examined by myself.
Q We asked you if you ever ordered an execution. You finally said yes. do so. I can't say with certainty that I ordered 20 or 25. In the case of Kalinin, for instance, I can give the exact number - perhaps, because approximately I ordered about 5 or 10 executions there.
Q When were you apprehended after the war?
Q When?
Q You have been two years awaiting this trial. That's right, isn't it? You have been reading from your statement, already prepared. Did it not occur to you in those two years' time, or at least during the last month or twoo after you had actually received the indictment, that a question would be put to you as to the number of executions, and did you not try to recall the exact number? think about it. I can have examined and confirmed 20 to 25 judgments.
Q All right. Then you ordered 25 exectuions...not less than 20, nor more than 25. Is that correct?
A I cannot say that exclusively, your Honor; it must have been approximately this number, at least, of orders given by me personally... orders given for execution. All other cases-which you can square with your conscience, and your oath to tell the 6 Nov 1947_A_MSD_22_3_Biolsi (Hildesheimer) the exact number -- the number must be between 15 and 25, possibly 30, cases which I personally investigated; investigations which led to an order of execution.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, the witness has stated that the number of executions was not less than 15 nor more than 30. Proceed from that point. BY MR. FERENCA:
Q You told us where executions were carried out. I would like you to explain now where it was that you ordered these 15 to 30 executions. You have stated that 5 to 10 were ordered in Kalinin. Where did you order the others? Velikkiluki.
Q How many there?
A I don't remember. It might have been 4 or 5 cases submitted to me for investigation. Furthermore, most cases were submitted to me during my stay in Kursk. It might have been another 10 to 15.
Q Ten to fifteen in Kursk. Any Welisch?
A No, I can't remember at the moment, but there might have been a few cases there for my decision.
Q Any in Rzhev?
Q Any towards Stalingrad?
A No. The mentioned group was shot in combat, but not after an investigation.
Q Any in Tshernishowskaya?
Q Didn't you once state in interrogation that a group of people were killed under your command in Tschernishowskaya?
A I spoke of the partisan kommando... this partisan advance kommando, kommando head, was near Kallatsch or in Mishnitz-Shirskaja, not in Tschernishewskaya.
6 November 1947_A_MSD_22_4_Biolsi (Hildesheimer)
Q Now, what did you say about Tschernishewskaya? I have here an interrogation where you said that a group of partisans were killed there. Do you now change your statement concerning that?
A Either the statement was mistakenly concluded... I never had the possibility to speak of Tschernishewskaya. It must have been a mistake if I did. This partisan group was in the neighborhood of NishnizShirskaja or Kallatsch. Czernitschewkera -- C-z-e-r-n-i-t-s-c-h-e-w-k-e-i-a?
Q You think they made that up?
A I don't think so. If so, I must have made a mistake in that case. your answer. You said that a group of from seven to five people wanted to form a partisan group, were found, and itwas discovered through a girl in the village who gave you the information about it, and you said that some of the men were shot in combat, and some of them were than "shot by us", and that "bei diesen Erchiessungen war ich dabei" -- which means "by this execution I was there" -- do you remember that?
A You mean the execution of the partisan heads?
Q You just said you don't remember anything about shootings in Tschernishewskaya, it wasn't in Tschernishewskaya. You are saying that the place is wrong... that the stenographer -
A It was on the road between Nishnitz Shirskaja and Kalatch; that is, on the route to Stalingrad. I do not say that the event as it is here actually took place. were present? Let me give you your interrogation, you read it, and then please explain it to the Court. Please the whole answer first, slowly and carefully, and then you may explain it in any way you see fit.
6 November 1947_A_MSD_22_5_Biolsi (Hildesheimer) tioned, here I have nothing to say about executions except about a very small Einsatz assignment which was carried on in the territory of Tschernishewskaya," where a group of five to seven people were raided who were about to form a partisan group. Through treason on the part of a girl--"
THE PRESIDENT: Is the defendant reading, or commenting? We don't know.
MR. FERENCA: He is reading, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, he is reading. Very well.
A (witness continuing) "...given away by a girl. The village was found out. A few of the men were shot in combat, and a few were shot afterwards. I was present at this execution." statement in an interrogation, when now you tell us it is not true? is the same event about which I made statements in my direct examination, and this afternoon. It is a matter of raiding a partisan advance head. It was in the territory of Nishnits-Shirskaja and Kallatsch, but not in Tschernishewskaya.
Q Now where is this place in which you say it took place? You listed six places where executions took place. But you did not list Nishnits-Shirskaja or Tshernishewskaya. Now..... There was a partisan advance head which was destroyed, and these men were shot in combat.
Q Was that near Welisch?
Q Was that near Welikiki Luki?
Q Was that in Kalinin?
6 November 1947_A_MSD_22_6_Biolsi (Hildesheimer)
Q Was that in Rzhev?
Q Was that in Kursk?
Q Was that on the way to Stalingrad? executions on the way to Stalingrad. Do you now change your story? that on the way to Stalingrad there was no active resistance of any kind except in one case where, by treason of a woman, we succeeded in raiding one partisan group and we shot them in combat. of a kommando... I myself did not reach the location where the fighting took place because by accident we came across another group at this partisan place.
Q Now, let's get your story straight. How many groups did you kill there? us.
actually tried to fight us.
Q. How many were killed without combat?
A. Those were the ones who were shot after an interrogation.
Q. Now there were two groups. One group was killed in combat, and one group killed after an interrogation, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You listed executions in both cases?
A. The first one was not executions.
Q. You listed executions in the second place?
A. Yes.
Q. You just told me when I asked you if you ordered any executions around Stalingrad, and you said, no, and now you told us, yes. Now which one is true?
A. I said just now that those who were taken prisoners, there were three girls among them, were shot after having been interrogated, and that had been ordered by myself.
Q. I went through the list of places and I asked you how many were killed in Welesch and you said, one or two. I asked you how many in Uelikky Luki and you said four or five. I asked you how many in Kalinin and you said five to ten. I asked how many in Welisch and you said, none. I asked how many in Kursk and you said from ten or fifteen. I asked you how many towards Stalingrad, and you said none. Now I ask you again how many were killed in the area towards Stalingrad under your command?
A. Partisan group of 4-6 men, and the three girls belonging to this group.
Q. In other words, 4-6 men plus the three girls, that is about nine people -- seven or nine people; you are now telling me that seven to nine people were killed by your order in that vicinity towards Stalingrad, is that correct?
A. No, the first group I said were actually killed in combat.
Q. How many were killed under your command not in combat?
A. Three.
Q. Why did you say none when I asked you that question the first time?
A. I had not remembered the details of this event at the time.
Q. In other words--
A. I have no reason to keep it back, as it was absolutely a justifiable shooting.
Q. You say that you didn't reveal it the first time because you had forgotten about it, but it was absolutely justifiable. You said in your interrogation you have just read, that these men were shot because they were about to form a partisan group. You regard that as absolutely justifiable?
A. Yes, they were not killed abter being made prisoners and then shot, but they were in a little forest which was encircled, and when my kommando arrived, or at least part of my kommando, there was fighting, and the men did not give up but they threw grenades and fired at us, and because of this fighting they were killed.
Q. You just said after an investigation, the interrogations you rodered they had to be shot. Did you interrogate them while they were throwing grenades? later on.
Q. You shot the three girls later on after an interrogation?
A. They were shot after an interrogation.
Q. After they formed a partisan group, is that correct?
A. They were participants in a partisan group, yes.
Q. You said they were about to form a partisan group, and that is why they were shot?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you say the three girls who were about to form a partisan correct?
A. Yes, that is the fact of the case as true out in the eximation.
Q. How long did the trial last of these three girls who were about to form a partisan group?
A. The three girls were first in protective custody, and then
Q. How long did the whole trial last?
A. I don't remember but it could have gone on for about eight
Q. Is that eight days for each girl, or eight days for all three girls?
A. The examination and investigation of the whole case took a
Q. What were you doing during those eight days; were you pre sent all the time supervising this?
A. No.
Q. When did you get any information on the execution?
A. This event was reported to me. I read the whole minutes
Q. You studied it all very carefully?
A. Yes, I read it all.
Q. You forgot all about it when I asked you a few minutes ago, but now you remember all the details?
Q. Tell me, what was the charge against these girls who were trying to form a partisan group to resist an aggressive invader?
What was the crime these girls committed?
A. They were members of an illegal organization , and they were in contact with another group which was in possession of arms.
The girls were not only a part of a formal company, but they were about to build up an information sabotage service, and also the girl who gave them away was a girl who knew about all the preparations for such things.
Q. Now when you witnessed the execution, will you please describe how it to the Court. How many men were present at the execution; were they shots were they beatened; were they hanged, what happened?
A. They were shot.
Q. How many men were present at the shooting?
A. About ten men were present.
Q. Who gave the order to fire?
A. One of the leaders.
Q. And you were present all the time?
A. At this shooting, yes.
Q. Did the girls resist in any way?
A. No.
Q. Was the same procedure followed in the case of all partisans who were caught?
A. I didn't participate in other partisan actions, but the procedure was always the same. I have already mentioned on direct examination that the individual cases were examined, as becomes evident from the records.
Q. In other words, you would have us believe that five-hundred people were killed as partisans by having a trial lasting about eight days, and that every one had their individual files examined, and then you passed sentence on them is that correct?
A. I said quite clearly that the sentence was not my own when these cases were tried, as becomes quite evident in the documents, and I must point out the document in which the situation becomes quite evident For instance, this one gives in it 180 partisans who were shot; that two divisions of the Army were assigned to the transport of prisoners to the camps, and that these divisions, or regiments, or companies, had prisoners who had been captured in the actual fighting, and, therefore, had been, made prisoners, because they were active partisans, and belonged to partisan movements.
Then the whole case was investigated for about a few weeks, by the secret constabulary, and the official document shows quite clearly that one-hundred people were released because they had no connection Whatsoever with this partisan movement.
Q. Steimle, what did you do when you found a man who was a Communist functionary?
A. If he was---
Q. Say he was a plain ordinary Communist functionary, head of a collective farm, or a Communist official, aaptured, doing nothing but sitting in his office reading Communist literature, what did you do with him? part in any activity, he was freed. Possibly he was even employed by us as a liaison man in a confidential position.
Q. In other words, although you were at war with the people, concerning most of Communism and Bolshevism, if you found a Communist who was an official not doing anything, you gave him a job, and that is what you did to him?
A. He was prepared to work for us, we used him.
Q. And if he was not prepared to work for you, then what?
A. Nothing happened to him, if he himself was loyal.
Q. You sent him home again?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. And you expect us to believe that?
A. I can only say what is true.
Q. Did you hear Ohlendorf say it was necessary to kill all Jewish children because it was possible that they might become Communist later on, and represent a future threat?
A. Yes, I heard that.
Q. And you did not regard Communist officials as a threat to German security at all.
You just sent them home, that is what you is the truth?
A. I can assure you that there were not many who were found out to be Communists functionaries.
Q. Although they were Communist officials, if you didn't catch them doing something against you, you just sent them home and forgot all about it?
A. Yes, but there were few such cases, because others would part of them had become quite clearly partisans, which is obvious if you study the document.
Q. You told us you had a gas-van in one of your kommandos, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you never used it except to transport German soldiers around is that correct?
A. No, not to transport German soldiers but supplies.
Q. You didn't use it for the purpose of killing women and children, as it was directed, did you?
A. No, I didn't use it for that.
A. No, I did not use it for that.
Q. You didn't use it for the purpose of killing the Jews who were in your area, did you?
A. No, I did not use it for that either because I did not kill Jews in this sector and because I do not know whether I could have come, to the direction to actually use the gas van for this purpose.
Q. Tell me now, if you were such a good National Socialist and good SS man, tell me why was it, although you knew the Fuehrer policy as regards Jews and Communists, you didn't kill any Jews and Communists in your area?
A. I did not say that I did not kill any Communists in my kommando activity, but we killed all the Communists who actually resisted the German occupation-power, and as far as the killing of Jews is concerned, as I have already mentioned today, I tried to evade this order because it seemed to me impossible to carry out.
Q. You say you did not kill Communists just because they were Communists, and you did not, of course, kill Jews just because they were Jews, is that correct?
A. I diet not speak about Jews, but I said that I tried to evade the Jew order concerning the Jews because from the moral point of view it seemed very hard to carry out.
Q. Did you know at that time that it was the established policy of Hitler and your Government to exterminate the Jews and eliminate Communism?
A. I only knew the order concerning the Jews, which I talked about today. The killing of all Jews as an entire program I did not know.
Q. You did not know about the killing of Jews as an entire program? Did you forget about what you said this morning?
A. I made the difference just now between the order valid for Russia as such contained in the Barbaressa Order, the Fuehrer Order, and the effort of the German Government to eliminate all Jews. I made a difference between those two. The first was an order which was passed on to me. The second I never heard about.
Q. Or was it because of your great friendship for the Jews that you tried to evade Hitler's order to exterminate them?
A. I already said that this is due to the fact that my kommando in these sectors was so busy with other security tasks that it was quite possible to relegat this order into the background or oven not to carry it out at all.
Q. I am trying to find out why it is that you, an SS-colonel and a good National Socialist, did not want to carry out the Fuehrer's Order to exterminate the Jews.
A. Because humanly I thought it was a very heighty, difficult decision to carry it out.
Q. It was not because of any friendship for the Jews then?
A. I said that the carrying out of an order and the purpose reached with it would have given reason for serious misgivings, not the question whether I myself would carry out the order or not, but the manner in which the Jewish solution of the question is handled, and the carrying out of the Jewish problem from this angle.
Q. My question was, then, you refused to carry out this order or tried to evade it, not because of any friendship for the Jews as such?
A. I tried to evade this order because the solution of the Jewish question just by shooting them, by the actual physical elimination I did not think the right human solution, and also politically I considered it wrong.
Q. Did you think it was better to beat the Jews than just to shoot them?
A. No, I would have considered it more proper to find a solution which, in fact, the world has not found up to this day, to establish a Jewish national state.
In fact, there were negotiations concerning this question between agencies of the Reich Security Office and the Jews abroad prior to 1939 in order to find such a solution.
Q. Did you ever do anything to help the Jews?
A. Yes, individual Jews I did help.
Q. Did you ever participate in any actions against the Jews?
A. No, I did not participate in any action against the Jews.
Q. I want you to think very hard about it, and in order to refresh your memory I will give you the date, 13 July 1939, and I repeat my question.
A. What was the date?
Q. 13 July 1939. Did you ever participate in any action against the Jews?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall a letter concerning you, sent by the Security Service of the Reichsfuehrer-SS of the 14th of July 1939, concerning disciplinary action taken against you because of excesses in connection with the Jewish action?
A. I know what all this is about. It does not concern my own person, but it concerns my own staff leader.
Q. Tell us what it is about.
A. In connection with the events of the 8th or 9th of November, 1938.
THE PRESIDENT: '38 or '39?
THE WITNESS: 1938, your Honor, acht und dreissig.
MR. FERENCZ: '38, your Honor, is correct for the action.
THE WITNESS: I was in Belgium during those days. I was in Belgium which has been noted in the records which were confiscated.
After I returned I found in my office, near my office, two or three cars. Also they contained files of the Jewish cultural community office. These files were secured by my then referent Haushann from the Jewish synagogue and were returned to the Jewish community. My staff leader kept these vehicles, and I tacitly gave my approval of this. They were to be turned over to the Secret State Police. In connection with this there also was an amount of money which my staff leader held, and as I covered this man, I got a reprimand. I did not participate in any Anti-Jewish action on my own part. That's what I remember of this matter.
Q. Now, you say because you stole all the Jewish money when you should have been writing reports you were disciplined?
A. No, because I covered my superior, my staff superior.
Q. What do you mean, you covered him......you took the money and divided it?
A. No. I did not give the order to hand this vehicle and the money to the Secret State Police.
Q. Where is the offense there that you are trying to tell us which would warrant the SS taking disciplinary action against you? Was it because you took the Jewish money and gave it to the SS?
A. Yes, because it had not been submitted to the State authority but it had been given to the SD.
Q. In other words, you are telling us that disciplinary action was taken against you by the SS because you stole Jewish money and gave it to the SS?
A. Because I found the money at my staff leader's and becasue the vehicles had remained in the SD, I got a reprimand from Heydrich. That is as I recall it.
MR. FERENCZ: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this is all certainly left in midair.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I realize it is being left in midair, but there is no use pursuing a line of questioning on a Collateral matter when the answers are of the nature they have been.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. Very well then. at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 November 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Otto Ohlendorf, et al., defendants sitting at Nurnberg Germany, on 7 November 1947, 0930 hours.
Justice Michael A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of American and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. NEIF (Dr. Neif, for the defendant Steimle:) Your Honor, there are a few brief questions which I want to ask the defendant in redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY DR. NEIF: cross examination asked you whether you ever took part in actions against Jews. There upon you said, no. the date of 13 July 1947. I would like to ask you now what you understand by Jewish actions, if you disregarded the Fuehrer Order which was only valid sofar as you are concerned in Russia? in Germany. which are contained therein, can they be called such Jewish Actions?
A No. These are not Jewish Actions, but it is a disciplinary procedure which was carried out against my staff leader, and in connection with this I was charged with having neglected my duty, and I was reprimanded. This was an event which was only within my office, but sofar as the contents of the procedure are concerned, was in connection with the action of 8 November 1938. If you want me to do so I shall explain, and I shall give further detail about this event.
Q I would like you to do so, because I don't know the contents of the letter.
A I don't know the letter the Prosecution quoted yesterday, but sofar as my name is mentioned in this in connection, it can only be the following fact. During the time of 8 November 1938, and in the following days, I was journeying in Belgium; when I returned later from this journey, these events had already happened, in which my SD Section had not actually participated as such. The operation was under the leadership of Goebbels, and in the Gau (Districts) the Gau propaganda leaders were the leading agencies. During the course of Spring 1939 my staff leader came to see me, and told me the following. That he had in connection with the safeguarding of the Jewish property a matter which was then dealt with by the State Police, discussed the matter with a minor official of the State Police to the effect two vehicles, or trucks should be kept in the garage, which was not part of my own office. These two trucks were Jewish property and should have been turned over to the State Police to be made use of, which agency either sold this property in order to put money at the disposal of the Jewish Community for immigration or here I am not quite sure, though whether it could have been used for another purpose, for instance, for a fine, which was imposed by on some Reich Agency. The Jews, he said he had done this in order to secure these vehicles for the office, and, he suggest to me that it should be tried that these vehicles should receive a police number plate. He said he had paid the expenses for the garage from funds which had been in Jewish documents, which however a few days after 8 November were turned over to the Jewish Community, that is, the documents. After this had been reported to me, I hesitated a few days, to move that my staff leader, whom I essemed, investigated. However, I tried through a personal discussion with the State Police Leader to clean up the matter by asking him to have these vehicles taken over by the Secret State Police. This event was found out by my superior, of the SD, the Oberabscnittfuerer, Chief of the Department.
My staff leader was immediately sent on leave of absence as the suspicion arose that he himself tried to gain by this action.