Q. Now when you witnessed the execution, will you please describe how it to the Court. How many men were present at the execution; were they shots were they beatened; were they hanged, what happened?
A. They were shot.
Q. How many men were present at the shooting?
A. About ten men were present.
Q. Who gave the order to fire?
A. One of the leaders.
Q. And you were present all the time?
A. At this shooting, yes.
Q. Did the girls resist in any way?
A. No.
Q. Was the same procedure followed in the case of all partisans who were caught?
A. I didn't participate in other partisan actions, but the procedure was always the same. I have already mentioned on direct examination that the individual cases were examined, as becomes evident from the records.
Q. In other words, you would have us believe that five-hundred people were killed as partisans by having a trial lasting about eight days, and that every one had their individual files examined, and then you passed sentence on them is that correct?
A. I said quite clearly that the sentence was not my own when these cases were tried, as becomes quite evident in the documents, and I must point out the document in which the situation becomes quite evident For instance, this one gives in it 180 partisans who were shot; that two divisions of the Army were assigned to the transport of prisoners to the camps, and that these divisions, or regiments, or companies, had prisoners who had been captured in the actual fighting, and, therefore, had been, made prisoners, because they were active partisans, and belonged to partisan movements.
Then the whole case was investigated for about a few weeks, by the secret constabulary, and the official document shows quite clearly that one-hundred people were released because they had no connection Whatsoever with this partisan movement.
Q. Steimle, what did you do when you found a man who was a Communist functionary?
A. If he was---
Q. Say he was a plain ordinary Communist functionary, head of a collective farm, or a Communist official, aaptured, doing nothing but sitting in his office reading Communist literature, what did you do with him? part in any activity, he was freed. Possibly he was even employed by us as a liaison man in a confidential position.
Q. In other words, although you were at war with the people, concerning most of Communism and Bolshevism, if you found a Communist who was an official not doing anything, you gave him a job, and that is what you did to him?
A. He was prepared to work for us, we used him.
Q. And if he was not prepared to work for you, then what?
A. Nothing happened to him, if he himself was loyal.
Q. You sent him home again?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. And you expect us to believe that?
A. I can only say what is true.
Q. Did you hear Ohlendorf say it was necessary to kill all Jewish children because it was possible that they might become Communist later on, and represent a future threat?
A. Yes, I heard that.
Q. And you did not regard Communist officials as a threat to German security at all.
You just sent them home, that is what you is the truth?
A. I can assure you that there were not many who were found out to be Communists functionaries.
Q. Although they were Communist officials, if you didn't catch them doing something against you, you just sent them home and forgot all about it?
A. Yes, but there were few such cases, because others would part of them had become quite clearly partisans, which is obvious if you study the document.
Q. You told us you had a gas-van in one of your kommandos, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you never used it except to transport German soldiers around is that correct?
A. No, not to transport German soldiers but supplies.
Q. You didn't use it for the purpose of killing women and children, as it was directed, did you?
A. No, I didn't use it for that.
A. No, I did not use it for that.
Q. You didn't use it for the purpose of killing the Jews who were in your area, did you?
A. No, I did not use it for that either because I did not kill Jews in this sector and because I do not know whether I could have come, to the direction to actually use the gas van for this purpose.
Q. Tell me now, if you were such a good National Socialist and good SS man, tell me why was it, although you knew the Fuehrer policy as regards Jews and Communists, you didn't kill any Jews and Communists in your area?
A. I did not say that I did not kill any Communists in my kommando activity, but we killed all the Communists who actually resisted the German occupation-power, and as far as the killing of Jews is concerned, as I have already mentioned today, I tried to evade this order because it seemed to me impossible to carry out.
Q. You say you did not kill Communists just because they were Communists, and you did not, of course, kill Jews just because they were Jews, is that correct?
A. I diet not speak about Jews, but I said that I tried to evade the Jew order concerning the Jews because from the moral point of view it seemed very hard to carry out.
Q. Did you know at that time that it was the established policy of Hitler and your Government to exterminate the Jews and eliminate Communism?
A. I only knew the order concerning the Jews, which I talked about today. The killing of all Jews as an entire program I did not know.
Q. You did not know about the killing of Jews as an entire program? Did you forget about what you said this morning?
A. I made the difference just now between the order valid for Russia as such contained in the Barbaressa Order, the Fuehrer Order, and the effort of the German Government to eliminate all Jews. I made a difference between those two. The first was an order which was passed on to me. The second I never heard about.
Q. Or was it because of your great friendship for the Jews that you tried to evade Hitler's order to exterminate them?
A. I already said that this is due to the fact that my kommando in these sectors was so busy with other security tasks that it was quite possible to relegat this order into the background or oven not to carry it out at all.
Q. I am trying to find out why it is that you, an SS-colonel and a good National Socialist, did not want to carry out the Fuehrer's Order to exterminate the Jews.
A. Because humanly I thought it was a very heighty, difficult decision to carry it out.
Q. It was not because of any friendship for the Jews then?
A. I said that the carrying out of an order and the purpose reached with it would have given reason for serious misgivings, not the question whether I myself would carry out the order or not, but the manner in which the Jewish solution of the question is handled, and the carrying out of the Jewish problem from this angle.
Q. My question was, then, you refused to carry out this order or tried to evade it, not because of any friendship for the Jews as such?
A. I tried to evade this order because the solution of the Jewish question just by shooting them, by the actual physical elimination I did not think the right human solution, and also politically I considered it wrong.
Q. Did you think it was better to beat the Jews than just to shoot them?
A. No, I would have considered it more proper to find a solution which, in fact, the world has not found up to this day, to establish a Jewish national state.
In fact, there were negotiations concerning this question between agencies of the Reich Security Office and the Jews abroad prior to 1939 in order to find such a solution.
Q. Did you ever do anything to help the Jews?
A. Yes, individual Jews I did help.
Q. Did you ever participate in any actions against the Jews?
A. No, I did not participate in any action against the Jews.
Q. I want you to think very hard about it, and in order to refresh your memory I will give you the date, 13 July 1939, and I repeat my question.
A. What was the date?
Q. 13 July 1939. Did you ever participate in any action against the Jews?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall a letter concerning you, sent by the Security Service of the Reichsfuehrer-SS of the 14th of July 1939, concerning disciplinary action taken against you because of excesses in connection with the Jewish action?
A. I know what all this is about. It does not concern my own person, but it concerns my own staff leader.
Q. Tell us what it is about.
A. In connection with the events of the 8th or 9th of November, 1938.
THE PRESIDENT: '38 or '39?
THE WITNESS: 1938, your Honor, acht und dreissig.
MR. FERENCZ: '38, your Honor, is correct for the action.
THE WITNESS: I was in Belgium during those days. I was in Belgium which has been noted in the records which were confiscated.
After I returned I found in my office, near my office, two or three cars. Also they contained files of the Jewish cultural community office. These files were secured by my then referent Haushann from the Jewish synagogue and were returned to the Jewish community. My staff leader kept these vehicles, and I tacitly gave my approval of this. They were to be turned over to the Secret State Police. In connection with this there also was an amount of money which my staff leader held, and as I covered this man, I got a reprimand. I did not participate in any Anti-Jewish action on my own part. That's what I remember of this matter.
Q. Now, you say because you stole all the Jewish money when you should have been writing reports you were disciplined?
A. No, because I covered my superior, my staff superior.
Q. What do you mean, you covered him......you took the money and divided it?
A. No. I did not give the order to hand this vehicle and the money to the Secret State Police.
Q. Where is the offense there that you are trying to tell us which would warrant the SS taking disciplinary action against you? Was it because you took the Jewish money and gave it to the SS?
A. Yes, because it had not been submitted to the State authority but it had been given to the SD.
Q. In other words, you are telling us that disciplinary action was taken against you by the SS because you stole Jewish money and gave it to the SS?
A. Because I found the money at my staff leader's and becasue the vehicles had remained in the SD, I got a reprimand from Heydrich. That is as I recall it.
MR. FERENCZ: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this is all certainly left in midair.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I realize it is being left in midair, but there is no use pursuing a line of questioning on a Collateral matter when the answers are of the nature they have been.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. Very well then. at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 November 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Otto Ohlendorf, et al., defendants sitting at Nurnberg Germany, on 7 November 1947, 0930 hours.
Justice Michael A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of American and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. NEIF (Dr. Neif, for the defendant Steimle:) Your Honor, there are a few brief questions which I want to ask the defendant in redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY DR. NEIF: cross examination asked you whether you ever took part in actions against Jews. There upon you said, no. the date of 13 July 1947. I would like to ask you now what you understand by Jewish actions, if you disregarded the Fuehrer Order which was only valid sofar as you are concerned in Russia? in Germany. which are contained therein, can they be called such Jewish Actions?
A No. These are not Jewish Actions, but it is a disciplinary procedure which was carried out against my staff leader, and in connection with this I was charged with having neglected my duty, and I was reprimanded. This was an event which was only within my office, but sofar as the contents of the procedure are concerned, was in connection with the action of 8 November 1938. If you want me to do so I shall explain, and I shall give further detail about this event.
Q I would like you to do so, because I don't know the contents of the letter.
A I don't know the letter the Prosecution quoted yesterday, but sofar as my name is mentioned in this in connection, it can only be the following fact. During the time of 8 November 1938, and in the following days, I was journeying in Belgium; when I returned later from this journey, these events had already happened, in which my SD Section had not actually participated as such. The operation was under the leadership of Goebbels, and in the Gau (Districts) the Gau propaganda leaders were the leading agencies. During the course of Spring 1939 my staff leader came to see me, and told me the following. That he had in connection with the safeguarding of the Jewish property a matter which was then dealt with by the State Police, discussed the matter with a minor official of the State Police to the effect two vehicles, or trucks should be kept in the garage, which was not part of my own office. These two trucks were Jewish property and should have been turned over to the State Police to be made use of, which agency either sold this property in order to put money at the disposal of the Jewish Community for immigration or here I am not quite sure, though whether it could have been used for another purpose, for instance, for a fine, which was imposed by on some Reich Agency. The Jews, he said he had done this in order to secure these vehicles for the office, and, he suggest to me that it should be tried that these vehicles should receive a police number plate. He said he had paid the expenses for the garage from funds which had been in Jewish documents, which however a few days after 8 November were turned over to the Jewish Community, that is, the documents. After this had been reported to me, I hesitated a few days, to move that my staff leader, whom I essemed, investigated. However, I tried through a personal discussion with the State Police Leader to clean up the matter by asking him to have these vehicles taken over by the Secret State Police. This event was found out by my superior, of the SD, the Oberabscnittfuerer, Chief of the Department.
My staff leader was immediately sent on leave of absence as the suspicion arose that he himself tried to gain by this action.
I myself asked for my personal leave of absence which was not granted. A disciplinary action was taken against me, because of carrying out my office supervision in a bad manner and, because I had tried to clean up the matter directly with the State Police Leader. The offense was considered by my covering up the actions of my Staff Leader. After the proceedings had come to my staff leader was transferred as a punishment. A small place in the center part of Germany. He was barred from being promoted for four years, and I personally got a first reprimand. The only disciplinary punishment which I ever received. secution with a clear conscience, whether you had ever taken part in a Jewish action? were you on 9 November 1938?
AAs I already stated I was in Belgium. I heard about the events in Germany on the morning of 9 November 1938, in the Belgian papers in Brussel.
DR. NEIF: Your Honor, I have no further questions. The redirect examination of the defendant Steimle is thus concluded, and, with the permission of the Tribunal I shall submit further a few documents at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Witness, your attorney has called your attention to a subject which was under discussion yesterday afternoon just as the Court recessed. Immediately before this subject was taken up, the one which you have now related in some detail this morning, we were discussing the partisan action in the woods in which partisans were killed, and, then later an execution took place. Now I understand this was on the road to Stalingrad, is that correct?
Q About when was this?
Q Yes. I understand this took place in a forest, in the woods?
A The actual seizure of the partisan group took place in the forest; that is during the fighting in which the male participants of this partisan group were killed during this action three women were captured.
Q Yes. Let's take up first the fighting. The fighting took place in the woods?
Q How many men did you have with you in this fight? into two or three groups in order to seize these pieces of forest which had been betrayed by a female deserter. Actually in the fight only one group took part, whereas the other groups arrived at a later point. sans?
Q What weapons did the partisans have? grenades. One of the partisans, for instance, who was arrested pretended that he had a gun when one of my men approached, and he used a hand grenade.
Q Were any of your men killed in this action? by the woman, was seized so that there was very short fighting that took place, and they were practically taken immediately.
Q Were any partisans killed in the action? in actual combat?
Q About how many men were there in the partisan group?
men?
A Thirty men had been assigned to this fighting at this road: there was only one group which actually took part in the fight, one group of my thirty men.
Q Yes, when you seized the girls, were they actually fighting?
A No, they didn't fight. One of the women was slightly injured in this fight.
Q One of the women was fighting, you say?
A No, she was just injured by the fight that took place. She was in this particular territory where the fighting took place.
Q Yes. Now you were able to seize three girls after you fought with these partisans? three girls? taken to our office.
Q Where was your office?
Q Then you conducted an investigation which lasted how long? approximately eight days, including the examination and investigations, as also witnesses were heard.
Q Was all this written up?
Q Was this done on a typewriter?
Q And were the records kept? we advanced or when a large number had been accumulated, they were destroyed.
Einsatzgruppe? tained an information service at Kiev, which could be proved; that was the reason why these women were shot.
Q Then you did make a report to the Einsatzgruppe Headquarters? they were shot eight or nine days after they were seized, is that correct?
Q And the executions was done by your own men?
Q How old were these women or girls?
A They must have been women in the age group between 25 and 35. I remember that one was a school inspector, the other one was also a teacher. I don't remember the profession of the third one. them?
A No. One came from Stalingrad, the other one Dnjepo, and as for the third, I don't know where she came from.
that was done before you executed them? service because they were all three active Communists of no religious conviction. you executed them? and adherents to the Communist program, and this means that they can have no religious conviction. some religious comfort was afforded them? have been done. I myself wouldn't have bothered.
Q You are not a religious man yourself?
A No, I am not a member of any church. Personally I have disputed the religious question with myself. My education was very Christian, and until this very day I have been on good terms with my very Christian family. I have always had great respect of religious conviction. woods ? kilometers from Nishnits-shirskaja. place? away from the forest where the partisans were killed.
Q How many men did you have in your firing squad?
A Ten men took part in it. Three or four men shot at one woman.
immediate?
Q Did you give the command to fire yourself? gave it, but I was present myself.
Q And you saw to it that it was done in a military, humans fashion?
Q Yes. Now, you witnessed this execution from beginning to end, didn't you.? death of them? was the leader of one of the groups, by group which approached from another direction, arrived too late at the place of fighting and at that moment the fight itself was over, but I arrived at the place. against the partisans?
Q Yes. Now do you have a pretty good memory? the execution and about the fight with the partisans. Yesterday afternoon, or the day before yesterday, between the hours of four o'clock and four-fifteen, and I will specifically refer to the transcript as Take 23, Page 1, this is what the English transcript says.
"Q I still have a few questions to ask of you which concern your entire activity as kommando office leader. As a kommando leader, did you ever attend an execution?
"A No."
Were you telling the truth day before yesterday; are you telling us the truth this morning?
which was a conclusive question, after I had explained my first - my activity in the first kommando.
THE PRESIDENT: I have taken the trouble to have this dialogue looked up in the German copy, and I have handed it to the interpreter. The interpreter will please take out the German record and read that question and answer as it appears in the German transcript.
(Thereupon the German interpreter read the above question and answer in the German transcript to the witness.)
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY THE PRESIDENT. compared it with the English text, and the texts agree. The question was. "Did you ever attend an execution?" That was all embracing And your answer was "No." Now, you have given us in precise particulars the story of an execution which you not only attended but directed. Now your answer is, do I take it, that you misunderstood your attorney's question?
A Yes. In discussion ofmy first kommando 7a. I answered the question of my defense counsel, while this event we have now discussed took place during my second assignment in 4a. The question has already been put here before. He put the question about the Army to which my kommando 7a was also assigned, and only very much later, after this question had been asked, the question of my second kommando was taken up by my defense counsel. Therefore, from the text it is quite evident that the question as meant by myself, and probably also by my defense counsel only referred to my activities during my first kommando.
DR. LEIF (For Defendant Steimle): hay I say, your Honor, as an explanation, that the witness is correct in this particular thing, that in the direct examination in our case it was built up so that first his activities in Kommando 7a were discussed, and as conclusive question for this particular subject the question was put to him, if I may repeat it now, "I have another few questions to you which refer to the entire time as the kommando leader.
Did you, as a kommando leader, ever take part or were you present at an execution?" This was the conclusive question referring to his activities in Special Kommando 7a.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now, let us see if he is referring to the same thing in this other matter. This morning he gave us a very detailed description of his participation in a fight with the partisans. The day before yesterday he made this statement. "Your Honor, I said that I spoke with my subordinate officers about these machines, that I test the activities." Apparently I was questioning him about his activities in the SD work. And then the witness goes on, "And I have also explained why I, as a militarily trained man, did not participate in these partisan actions. The documents show this action clearly, how they were carried out." Then later on when it seemed rather extraordinary to the Tribunal that this man who was in charge of an action group did not take part in any action, he was questioned further, and he said, "I didn't lead a platoon of active SS men into the forest." Then carrying the matter still further, we put this final question to him. "You never led them into any action; you didn't lead them into any fight?" And the answer is, "No."
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, these questions were put in connection with the explanation of my first kommando where these partisan combats were carried out under participation of and on order by the Wehrmacht, and my statements referred to this activity during this time, and I here also referred to the documents. They all refer to this first activity of mine, the first kommando 7a, and this answer is still valid for this particular activity even now. BY THE PRESIDENT: police work?
the SD work was of much more importance to me. work of the police work? Service of the SD, but my SS duties, I thought more important.
Q And you devoted more time to that than to the police work?
Q And did your superior officers know this? the information service and they were satisfied. work? work in the partisan warfare during the time when, for instance, Foltes was there, was guaranteed; also the work which was carried out by myself, of course, and which I have already mentioned, as, for instance, the using of NKWD files at Kursk. That concerned mainly police work, and therefore it was approved, and it was looked upon with interest by my superiors. devoted considerable time, or more time to SD than the police work?
Nov-7-M-MJ-4-1-Hoxsie (Hildesheimer)
A. I don't know whether they were very pleased about it. I didn't hear any utterances of disapporval, and certainly not during my second kommando where I was on very good terms with my superior.
Q. Didn't your superior officer ever tell you that you should devote more time to the police work than the SD work?
A. No, I was not told that as in my kommando there was also always somebody who was dealing with the police work.
Q. All right. Now, we will refer to your testimony of day before yesterday. You are talking with Nebe and this is your answer. "He told me that the necessity of police security seemed to be more important than the security in the SD work."
Q. Did I state that?
A. Yes, that is what you said.
Q. Nebe?
A. Your answer is, "He told me" - this is Nebe speaking. That is, it is your testimony. Nebe "told me that the necessity of police security seemed to be more important than the security in the SD work." Now, which statement are you going to stand on, the statement you made day before yesterday or what you are giving us this morning?
A. I can only just remember to have said that Nebe, when I was on my way to Moscow, and came to see him, that Nebe in fact, then told me that he had to ask me that as far as Jews are concerned children and women also have to be killed. A comparison between police work and SD work I cannot remember, and I can only imagine that it might have been a mistake in the translation, Your Honor.
Q. Then you challenge the correctness of the transcript in that respect?
A. No, I can find no other explanation for it, because I cannot remember having said it in this particular phase.
Q. Then you challenge the correctness; a mistake occurred in the translation or in the actual transcription, that is the only ex planation you can offer?