Q Even though nothing in your sphere is contained in this report? was my sphere, in addition to my sphere as Chief III.
Q Well, don't you think the making-out and signing of reports about all activities is the normal duty of a deputy of an organization like Einsatzgruppe D?
A No; I do not think so because every department chief made out reports, and if the chief was absent and I represented him for this sphere - then I signed them.
Q. All right. Let's go back to your affidavit which we were discussing and which yesterday you testified at great length concerning two executions which you witnessed. This is in III-D, Page 34 of the English, Page 60 of the German, and is Document NO-2859, Prosecution's Exhibit 158. Will you explain to the Tribunal why when you wrote this affidavit or signed this affidavit you did not give any details about the two executions you witnessed?
A. I do not even know whether I was questioned about it, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. You mean that you were not asked a question while you were discussing the material to go into this affidavit whether or not you had participated or seen or had anything to do with the execution of Russian nationals?
A. I do not remember any details.
Q. Well, yesterday when the President of the Tribunal asked you, you remembered great details about these executions, didn't you?
A. As to whether I remembered the details about the day when it happened --no, I did not remember the details; I merely remember what I described yesterday.
Q. Well, why didn't you put these details in this report or in this affidavit?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I do not know whether I was questioned about it.
Q. All right, let's go to the final paragraph. Right above your signature you say that you have read the above statement which consists of four pages in the German language and that you declare this to be the whole truth. Isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, it's not the whole truth because you testified at length concernging two executions.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, if the witness states that he was not interrogated on that subject then he cannot be blamed because it is not in the affidavit; because after all it was not he who controlled the interrogation but the interrogator.
Now if you have some evidence that he did talk about this in the interrogation, then you can question him on it, but he cannot be blamed for the omission of anything from the affidavit because that was the matter of the interrogator.
MR. WALTON: I realize that, Your Honor, and in no way mean to argue with the court, but this is supposed to by an affidavit of his activities with the Einsatzgruppen -- the entire affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it's very obvious that an affidavit, no matter how long, could not contain every detail of 12 month's work; something would necessarily have to be omitted.
MR. WALTON: That is true, but the two executions which he testified about were of such clarity in his mind yesterday, certainly I am at a loss to understand why he didn't insist that these were included in this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it wasn't for him to insist. Mr. Wartenberg was questioning him and he replied. Then his replies were put into an affidavit and he signed the affidavit. There was no duty on his part to tell Mr. Wartenberg, "How you didn't question me about this; you didn't question me about that."
MR. WALTON: Very well, sir. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Colonel Seibert, will you turn in Document Book III-D, to Page 65 of the German, Page 36 of the English, to Document NOKW* 629, which is Prosecution's Exhibit 159. I have here in court a photostat copy of the original of that report which I will submit to you.
(Copy submitted to the witness) ished will you so indicate to me?
A. Yes.
(Witness reads the report.)
Q. You signed this report also, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you signed it under the initials "I.V." is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Or as deputy of General Ohlendorf?
A. For my sphere, yes.
Q. Are there any economic questions or domestic questions discussed in this report?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you point out to the Tribunal what they are?
A. On Page 1 it says, in the second paragraph, about the middle of the page, and I quote: "As regards the activity in the areas of settlement of ethnic Germans, I beg to be permitted to refer to the special report which was submitted for your knowledge sometime ago." But the special report is not here.
Q. All right, and it refers to SS-Oberfuehrer Hoffmeyer -HOFFMEYER --head of the liaison office for racial Germans. Did you have any dealings with him?
A. With Hoffmeyer I had no personal dealings no, pardon me, he took over the jobs in the ethnic German territory in which the commando 12 was stationed.
Q. All right. Let's go on to the latter part of this report, and it says, "The following suggestions are submitted for the future activity and assignment of forces that have become available in the meantime." Then it follows that these assignments and locations are given. Is this your work?
A. The designation of the garrisons and assignments was not my job.
Q. Even though you put it in the report?
A. Yes, it says so in the report.
Q. Whose orders was it that the commandos occupied the stated garrisons?
A. It was on the basis of the army order.
Q. All right, then, now let's go to the last paragraph just above your signature. That paragraph states that General Ohlendorf was away from the group, does it not?
A. Yes.
you could give an oral report on the 11th of October? says here.
Q What conference, with whom? the Chief of Staff. Chief of Staff at this conference?
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor, it is completely impossible for me to tell you what was discussed on this particular conference in detail. I had several discussions with the Chief of Staff. Almost daily or almost every other day I spoke with other officers of the Army, so that in detail I could not say. Of course, I spoke about the general situation during those conferences as it could be gathered from the reports, and I reported to him about the situation. assignments? about this; I do not know that any more. the officer who was the Chief of Staff of the Eleventh Army, isn't that a normal function of a deputy when the commanding officer is away from his command?
A No, this is not at all the case. As an information officer for the entire SD reports, I had to report to these offices continually, no matter whether Ohlendorf was present or not.
Q Isn't it one of the functions of a deputy commander to propose future commitments of his group when a commander is not there to give his judgment in the matter?
gruppe he would, of course, have made the suggestion.
Q Well, weren't you acting as deputy for the entire group during this specific time?
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, Mr. Walton has called your attention to that sentence which reads: "The following suggestions are submitted," etc. Now, by whom were those suggestions submitted.
THE WITNESS: They were submitted by the commandos, your Honor, and they were incorporated into the report and summarized.
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you submit them as the acting commander?
THE WITNESS: I did not, your Honor, but this was summarized by me from the suggestions from the commandos which appeared in the report, and I summarized it in this report.
THE PRESIDENT: If there was any discussion to be made about the suggestions, would the Chief of Staff have conferred with you on them or would he have called in each Einsatzkommando chief?
THE WITNESS: If he would have had any discussions he would have certainly informed me about them, and I would have had the duty to inform the commandos concerning the opinion of the Army. BY MR. WALTON: General Ohlendorf didn't return you could commit these commandos to tactical security questions, could you not?
questions.
Q All right. Let's go back to your affidavit on Page 34 of the English of the same document book, III, which you have, and on Page 60 of the German, your own affidavit, and specifically Paragraph 5 of your affidavit. In Paragraph 5 of this affidavit you stated that it was known to you that members of the Security Police and SD received the order to interrogate camp inmates in the Russian prisoner of war camps and to carry out execution measures. What was the source of your information?
THE PRESIDENT: It was "executive measures". You read it "execution".
MR. WALTON: I am sorry, executive measures. Q (By Mr. Walton): What was the source of your information about screening these prisoners of war in these camps? order which concerned this, but it may also be that I heard it later in Berlin, somehow. It told Mr. Wartenberg at the time clearly that I cannot give any detail, and I do not know at the moment whether this general knowledge was based on an order which I read or whether I heard it through a conversation. I do not know exactly. gruppen or Einsatzkommando personnel? screening team, and from the reports which are now in the documents I read that the orders say that special kommandos are to be formed which are subordinate directly to the chief of the Security Police and that they are to report to him.
personnel of the Einsatzgruppe D? such team in Einsatzgruppe D. which included the execution of prisoners of war?
Q All right. Let's look at Document Book I, Page 54 of the English, Page 62 of the German. This is Document 3414 and is prosecution's Exhibit 14. Look this over and tell the Court whether you have seen this order or a copy of it before.
A I have looked it over, Mr. Prosecutor. As I said, the fact, which is evident from the order, is known to me, but the names mentioned here I do not recall at all, but I cannot say whether I read about it six years ago or not. received a copy of this order? the distribution list that this order was sent to the commandos and to Einsatzgruppe D for their information, but not for their execution of it. copy of this order then, is it not? files of the headquarters of Einsatzgruppe D, woult it not? to this order - midway of Page 55, your Honors, this same document - where it says, "I request that the chiefs of the Einsatzgruppen try to execute the purge of the transit camps with their own forces, as far as possible." Did Einsatzgruppe D have the task to purge the transit camps in its area of activity?
mission, but as I remember the conditions in the Crimea, I did not see any single camp in the Crimea, and I explain the reason to be that we were with a group up in the operational area and the prisoner of war camps were further back. gruppe D, not permanent prisoner of war camps but transit camps? have been one, because in the Crimea prisoners were taken too. So I would assume so. reports to Berlin? leaders in Einsatzgruppe D? that is those who were in the Crimea, the relationship was good. a commando leader? a commando leader. the co-defendant Braune?
A Between Braune and myself? In words and in conversation certainly, for this happened frequently, but a serious dispute, I cannot say.
issued to the co-defendant Braune in your official capacity? conversation. I ask you whether these disagreements arose over the fact you had issued him orders in your official capacity? reason. you had with Braune?
A Mr. Prosecutor, these were conv ersations among officers, or comrades, which usually brought various opinions about various problems. To give any details about these is very difficult.
had read reports from members of the SD in Russia which told about the kidnapping of labor for Germany, do you remember that incident?
A Yes, I said that. This was generally known to me by reports, that is correct.
Q From whence came these reports? of the Security Police in the East. Einsatzgruppe D? in the operational area, during the time I was in Russia, I did not see anything of transports of workers. Therefore, no reports could be made about them. This was chronologically later. This was, perhaps, in 1943, and I told Mr. Wartenberg at the time that I saw these reports generally probably in Berlin. then that you over saw any reports where laborers were shanghaied or kidnapped while attending a movie? example was known in practically all agencies in Germany which were concerned with labor allocation. Only every agency named a different movie. I do not mean to say by this that this did not happen. It might very well have happened, and I told this to Mr. Wartenberg, but a case from the area during the time I was present is not known to me, not as having happened. either remotely or directly, to do with an execution?
the seizure of the property of people who were sentenced to execution? except when you made inspection trips, and work on reports which went to Berlin or to the Army? of all the SD reports and all materials for the SD, and one man was so occupied with this job, for such a large area, that I was able to do only one small part of my job. you had charge of the training of Tartar defense companies? of the training of the Tartar defense companies?
A Yes, I understand now. During my inspection trips I inspected the Tartar companies which the Eleventh Army had put at the disposal and which had been distributed and stationed in platoons in the endangered villages in the Jaila Mountains, that is to say, in those villages which were continually attacked by partisans, and I visited these units during my inspection trips; not every time, but it did happen. their daily tasks? the men who carried out the training. that were not partisans?
A No. I never learned about that, and this was not their mission, for the Army itself had ordered that these subunits be stationed in the villages for the protection of their villages and not for any kind of other mission. properly armed?
A No, the Army supplied their arms. These were rifles and hand grenades. They did not have any automatic weapons. inspection of these companies?
Q Did you ever report to Berlin about these companies? mentioned. inspection, that they were adequately trained for the task at hand?
A They were never sufficiently trained, Mr. Prosecutor, for these were volunteer Tartars who volunteered on the basis of call by the Eleventh Army, and who were currently trained. That is, actually they were trained in their daily combat with partisans. Of course, their unit leaders trained them in the localities where they were stationed. before they were ever committed against the partisans? so that they could be committed? training was relatively brief, and in no unit was it ever completed while I was in the Crimea.
training before they should be committed against the partisans?
A No, I did not do that either. They were immediately committed in the villages,.and it might certainly have happened that on the next day, as far as they were in a position to do so, they had to fight if the village was attacked. interested in the efficiency, training efficiency which they had achieved, shouldn't you? look after the condition of the training during my inspections and to speak with the unit officers. in an action? company in three or four cases.
Q Did your outfit ever take any prisoners? all German Army units were committed. In the case in which I participated with one batallion, Rumanians were committed and Tartar Home Guard units were committed. These Tartars were not employed to start the frontal attack but to secure a large area. At the flanks they were to secure the left or right flank because better trained soldiers were available. Tartar companies under your command went into an area to search out all of the enemy who left there when a line moved forward, didn't they?
A No, the combat took place differently, Mr.Prosecutor. The German battalion had attacked the fortified areas, and the tactics of the partisans was as follows:
Either when they thought they were strong enough to defend themselves to do so or to see that they could flee as quickly as possible and to retreat, and this was to be prevented and stopped by the security belt at the rear and at the front and on the flanks. Otherwise the partisan camps could never be attacked. They would have immediately retreated to the next forest.
Q. All right. Well come back to my original question. Did -at any time you lead a fighting force -- did the unit under your command ever take any prisoners?
A. That happened, yes.
Q. That happened to them?
A. The prisoners were -- if they were soldiers -- among them were Russian troops and Partisans as armed civilians, then the soldiers were turned over to the army as prisoners of war, and the rest were either turned over to the secret field police or they were handed over to the unit which was committed there.
Q. That included your unit that was committed there?
A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, not in the form that the Tarter companies would have taken prisoners along.
Q. Isn't it a matter of fact, Colonel, that under the Hitler Order, that where any Partisan was found with arms in his hand, he was immediately liquidated, you and your Tartar defense companies immediately liquidated all Partisans you captured?
A. This did not correspond to the Fuehrer Order, but this was an army order which had been posted in all places, which had been disseminated by leaflets, according to which armed civiliang and any people who aided armed civilians would be punished by death.
Q. All right. Did you and your Tartar defense companies ever execute people who had aupplied food or ammunition or medical supplies to the Partisans?
A. I never experienced it, Mr. Prosecutor, But in the combats I took part in ---
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Walton, I don't know whether you got an answer to your first question, what happened to prisoners.
MR. WALTON: As I understood it, sir, he said if it was a Russian army man.....
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now but then you made it more specific. You spoke of armed Partisans being captured. Now, what happened to them?
Did you liquidate them at once? That's the question you put and I don't recall hearing an answer.
THE WITNESS: I didn't experience that they were immediately liquidated at the place, but I am convinced that they were shot.
MR. WALTON: Were they shot by members of the unit under your command?
THE WITNESS: Now by these Tartars companies. They never carried out an execution as far as I know. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Why not get it more specific? Now, you led a detachment into action against Partisans, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. You captured some armed Partisans? Right?
A. I personally did not capture any.
Q. Well, you lead a detachment which captured armed Partisans?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you order these Partisans shot?
A. No, I could not have ordered that because ---
Q. Why not?
A. Your Honor, because I did not have the total order about this action. I led one of the four or five committed units.
Q. Who then ordered them shot?
A. The order could only have been given by the officer who had the command over this action?
Q. You said that you led a detachment into action against Partisans. You said that this detachment captured Partisans. You said that these Partisans were then shot. Who ordered them shot?
A. Your Honor, I said I am convinced that these prisoners were shot.
Q. Well, who ordered them shot?
A. Only the officer who had the command over this operation. I was merely commanding officer of one unit of four or five which partici pated.
In this way I was only a subordinate officer.
Q. Well, very well. Who was the officer that ordered them shot?
A. That was the battalion commander of this German battalion.
Q. And what was his name?
A. Once it was Lieutenant Colonel Meyer. Another time it was the battalion commander of the Roumanian battalion.
Q. Well, he was the one who ordered them shot? These two that you have mentioned?
A. Yes. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Did he ever order you to execute any of the Partisans which were captured?
A. No, he never gave me that order.
Q. Did you ever order men under your command to execute Partisans that were captured?
A. No. The auxiliary units were not used for this purpose, but regular units.
MR. WALTON: The Prosecution has no further questions at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik, any redirect examination?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
Perhaps Dr. Gawlik, we would gain time if we would recess now and then you may begin immediately after the recess. The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. STUEBINGER (Attorney for the Defendant Braune): Your Honor, I ask that the Defendant Braune be excused from tomorrow's attendance in court in order to be able to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Braune will be excused from attendence in court tomorrow.
DR. STUEBINGER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Gawlik: BY DR. GAWLIK (Attorney for the Defendant Seibert):
Q. First now, let us come to the last point your assignment as leader of a Tartar Company. In order to clarify the situation, I have four questions to ask you, concerning your activity in the Tartar Company. Did you, as the leader of the Tartar Company, did you ever shoot a prisoner?
A. NO.
Q. Did you ever give an order for the shooting of one?
A. No, I never gave such an order.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do you see anything wrong about shooting a partisan?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, because this man had forfeited his life after the Army had ordered clearly that armed civilians should be shot.
THE PRESIDENT: But the only reason that you didn't order any partisan to be shot is that it just did not happen to fall within your activity at that time.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I could say that, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. For what reasons are you of the opinion that a partisan deserves death?
A. The Army order had proclaimed that persons who offend against the security of the German Armed Forces, to this category belonged armed civilians for thus the term "partisans" has to be understood in the Russian campaign.