I now ask you, according to your own experiences.... if, in a report, no executions are mentioned concerning the period of time of the report, does that mean that no executions had taken place, or were they just not reported?
A. I can only say that from the picture I get from this report, I think it must be that they did not take place. I don't know whether this is due to an oversight or whether they were not reported for some reason, but to me it would mean that none took place.
Q. Did every Einsatzkommando leader have to report his executions, or didn't he have to do so?
A. Obviously he had to report them, not only his own executions, but he also had to report all happenings in the entire sector.
Q. In that case the leader of Kommando 12 would have acted against orders if he had not reported executions which had taken place there?
A. If in this report no executions were mentioned, and they had been carried out, in that case he would have acted against orders.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, with this I have for the time being, completed my presentation of evidence in the case of Seibert. I would like to reserve the right to submit documents later.
THE PRESIDENT: That right will be reserved.
MR. WALTON: May it please the Tribunal, I should like to put a very few questions to the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Proceed. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Colonel, I should appreciate it if you would turn to Document Book I, page 93 of the German, page 71 in the English, your Honors -- to Document NO-3422, which is Prosecution Exhibit 19. Will you indicate, please, Colonel, when you have found the place?
A. Page 93, Mr. Prosecutor, German text?
Q. 93.
A. Yes, I have found that page.
DR. GAWLIK: I object to this question, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: He hasn't put a question yet. What question are you objecting to?
DR. GAWLIK: I object to any question that might refer to this document, because the re-cross examination-
THE PRESIDENT: You say you object to any question he might put regarding this document. Suppose the question which he will put shows that your client is innocent? Would you object to that?
DR GAWLIK: All right, I shall wait. I shall wait for that.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Mr. Walton. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. This document is an Operations order which had a subsequent date than the one you have just testified was distributed to the Einsatzgruppen for information....is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Also, this is a directive for the purging of prisoner of war camps and the transit camps containing Soviet prisoners of war -- the same subject as the other documents.....is that not true?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, right at the bottom of page one of the original it says that the Einsatzgruppen will immediately detail Sonderkommandos in appropriate strength under the command of an SS-officer....that is said in the document, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, down at the distribution list....is this distribution made for information to the Einsatzgruppen, according to the face of the document?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. This is just the opposite example. The distribution list says first to the Einsatzgruppen, and the Einsatz kommandos; and secondly for information, to the higher SS and police leader.
Q. All right. Now, then, it is reasonable to suppose from the face of this document that this Operation order was sent to these named Einsatzgruppen for compliance, or for execution....is it not?
A. It becomes ecident from the distribution list that this order went to the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommandos.
Q. Did you ever see a copy of this order?
A. I have already said that I cannot ever say whether I read this particular order or not.
Q. Do you remember whether or not you ever took any action in connection with this order?
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I object to this type of questioning. The questions, in my opinion, may only refer to the document which was mentioned by myself, because the re-cross examination can only refer to my re-direct examination. Only in this connection could questions be put in the re-cross examination, but these questions exceed that limit.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, was this document referred to by Dr. Gawlik in the re-direct examination?
MR. WALTON: No, Your Honor, but this is part of the same story. It would be like referring to one paragraph in a story, and not getting the complete story.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you have the opportunity to cross-examine him on this when you had the defendant for cross-examination?
MR. WALTON: I didn't intend to go further than the question which I just asked and which he has answered. I am through at the present time.
THE PRESIDENT: Your objection is sustained, Dr. Gawlik. The witness, Willy Seibert, will be returned to the defendants' box; and the witness Biberstein will be taken to the witness box.
follows:
JUDGE SPAIGHT: Defendant, please raise your right hand and repeat after me: speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPAIGHT: You may be seated.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, before I begin with the direct examination of the defendant Biberstein I would like to submit my Document Book. It only contains three numbers. English , has not been received by him. It has been turned ever to me, in the English, and I was told that it had been submitted to the Tribunal and, to the prosecution, and I assumed that I could rely on this.
MR. HORLIK- HOCHWALD: The Prosecution hasnot received the Document Book yet. However, if Dr. Bergold is in a position to hand the English copy to me, which possibly he has, for a short examination, I will have no objection to his presenting this Document Book now.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, the Tribunal has your Document Book, so there is no reason why you can't immediately proceed. Mr. Hochwald can be scrutinizing it as we go along.
MR. HORLIK-HOCHWALD I have just received a copy.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Yes You proceed, Dr. Bergold.
DR. BERGOLD: I submit from my Document Book, Document No. 1, Exhibit No. 1. This is an excerpt from the Defense Exhibit 52 in Case II against Erhard Milch, and concerns the examination of Mr. Neurath. Your Honor will remember that since he was present at the examination.
As Exhibit No. 2, Document No. 2, I now submit an excerpt from the German General Lexikon, that is the Encyclopedia, and waspublished in 1926, by Meyer. It concerns the types of executions which are customary in the more important states of the world. In my final plea I shall come back to that.
And as the last, No. 3, I submit Document No. 3, Exhibit 3, the affidavit of the defendant Biberstein which he gave in Eselheide. This is an excerpt which I received from the Prosecution itself. Your Honor will remember that I asked for it at the time. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, what is your name; when and where you you born?
A. My name is Ernst Emil Heinrich Biberstein. I was born on the 15th of February 1899 in Hilchenbach, that is in the District Siegen, in Westphalia.
Q. Did you always carry the name Biberstein?
A. No, I used to have another name. My name used to be ... I now spell it: S-z-y-m-a-n-o-w-s-k-i- , Szymanowski.
Q. Why did you change your name?
A. When I just mentioned my former name now, I spelled it in order to go the safe way. I always had to do that because otherwise this name as always misspelled. Apart from that, A German could never pronounce the name properly. I always had quite a bit of trouble with it. My family was originally German, and I knew an old German name which goes back to 938. What is more understandable than having the express wish of adopting this old family name? In 1939 there was an order issued by the Party that all foreign-sounding names should be changed into German names. This decree was not actually carried out because of the outbreak of the war. In 1941 I used a very favorable opportunity to apply for a change of name, under the pretext that I had received an order to do so. Thus it came about that my name was changed on the 9th of June 1941 by a decree of the Police President of Berlin.
Q. Were there any other reasons why you changed your name?
A. No, there were no other reasons.
Q. Who were your parents?
A. My father was a railway official. At the last he was Reichbahnrat, that means, Reich Railway Counsel, and came from an old artisan family. My mother is nee Giesler, and comes from a family of officials and farmers.
Q. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
A. Yes, I had a younger brother who was an artist by profession. As he was lame, he never became a soldier. On Christmas Eve 1943 when he tried to save victims of the bombs in Berlin, he was killed in an air attack on Berlin.
Q. What special impressions did your parents give you?
A. I was educated in a Prussian family of officials. I learned to know and to esteem all the virtues which once made Prussia one of the most orderly, and best states in Germany. I learned respect for God, obedience and faithfulness towards the State leadership, decency and honesty and conscientiousness in my profession and in my life. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Why do you say, witness, that Prussia was one of the best states in Germany?
A. I said best organized, your Honor.
Q. Oh -
A. I must attach particular value to the order in public life and in the life of the population.
Q. Well, her was it better organized then Bavaria, for instance?
A. Well, it is well-known that the Prussian state was very painstaking in keeping order and organizing matters, in a manner which was not usual -- or at least not to that extent in other states.
Q. You mean it was well known in Prussia?
A. No, no.
Q. You think a Bavarian would admit that Prussia was better organized?
A. I don't know that. That is a kind of local patriotism which, of course, would not admit that this was so.
DR. BERGOLD: If I may say something, your Honor ... we Bavarians -- we were convinced that Prussia was better organized. We Bavarians are of the conviction that we lead a more cozy and freer life. That has always been our conviction.
THE PRESIDENT: In view of the admission by the Senator from Bavaria, the statement will stand uncontradicted.
DR. BERGOLD: I now return to my question, your Honor.
Q. Witness, I would advise you to put on your earphones, because suddenly a question comes from the Tribunal and you are not ready.
What schools did you go to?
A. After going to elementary shcool from 1905 to 1908 I graduated from the Humanistic Gymnasium in Muehlheim-Holstein, which is a secondary school. In 1917 I graduated, as the best in my class.
Q. What profession did you take up?
A. I intended to study Protestant Theology.
Q. What were the reasons for this?
A. From the time that I went to school I intended to do so; it had been decided by my parents that I should become a clergyman. It was the quiet wish of my mother, although It was hardly ever discussed in the family; and I respected this profession, although I was awed by it. In the secondary school I learned the Hebrew language.
Q. What did you do in spring 1917?
A. I matriculated at the University of Kiel as a student of theology, and I applied for my first semester; but on the 16th of June 1917 I was drafted into the Army and I took part in the defensive fights as an Infantryman until the end of the first World War.
Q. What effect did the war experience have on you, especially in the choice of your professional training?
A. The fact that I would have to take part in the war made me -especially during the last years of school -- conscious of establishing a particularly intimate relation to God. I remember extremely well my experiences and my feelings at that time, because they became basic for my whole life.
of mind I took part in the war; these war experiences fortified my belief in God especially, and also, therefore, my decision to continue with my theological studies.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't quite follow that, Witness. You say that your experiences in the war fortified your vows to the Supreme Being. That is not quite clear to me.
THE WITNESS: Yes, the experiences I had as a soldier have fortified me in my relationship to God, my personal experiences.
THE PRESIDENT: Your experiences in the war made you all the more religious, is that what you are telling us?
THE WITNESS: No, all I wanted to sap is that my own personal experiences as far as guidance and protection go, fortified me in my belief in God.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, did you believe in God before you went into the war?
THE WITNESS: As I said, I did. I already said the thought of my having to take part in the war made me look for and find a relationship to God which I found at that time became even fortified through the fact that I was saved in the war. It was fortified through this very fact.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (By Dr. Bergold) Did you want to become a pastor, a clergyman, or did you have other plans?
A. When in 1919 I resumed my theological studies in Kiel I intended to become a clergyman, but the meeting with the professor of theological studies of the Old Testament,Dr. Salinawakened other wishes in me. His simple manner, his activity and his teaching fascinated me so much that I specialized more and more in the Old Testament. In a successful work on an academical paper, in which I dealt with the influence of Egyptian religion on the Jewish race, I drew professor Salin's attention to my work.
I became his pupil, and I studied Assyrian and Babylonic history, their life and their writing, and Arabic. As an aim I had a lectureship for ancient Oriental languages, history and history of religion. Inflation put an end to this plan. Apart from that the salary as a private lecturer was so small that it made marraige impossible, or at least for the time being. Thus I was forced to lock for another job in order to find a firm basis for my existence.
Q. Will you now tell us of your life from university days until you were first ordained?
A. I shall be brief. After six semesters (terms) of theological studies, on the 29th of April, 1922, I graduated in Kiel, and I passed my first theological examination. Then I got some practical training which consisted of attending classes at the theological preachers seminary, in Pretsch in Holstein, which lasted for six months, and in the so-called training vicarage with the dean in Neumunster in Holstein. After this period of practical training I passed on the 23rd of October, 1923, the second practical theological examination. As this profession was very much filled up, I was without a job for one year. On the 9th of November 1924, I was ordained as a pastor in Kiel, and after that I became alocal vicar, as a deputy of the regular pastor who had become ill, and I was sent to Angeln near Flensburg, On the 24th of September, 1925, I was elected the pastor of the small community Kasing, near Tonning at the Eider River, which is at the west coast of SchleswigHolstein. This was my first permanent job. I married in January, 19241925, and I have three children.
Q. Did you give up your scientific plans?
A. First I was, of course, taken in completely by my duties of the vicarage. Then I again became interested in the ancient Orient and in the Old Testament, and especially when in 1926 in Berlin, I accidentally met Professor Salin - in front of the university, who had been called to Berlin in 1922. He asked me to take up my habilitation, and I asked for my literature thesis in Kiel entitled, "The language of the Book of Hiob."
But I had no intellectual stimulus living in the country. Apart from that, I went through a psychological change under the influence of the NSDAP. Those questions and problems of many kinds which were my field of interest, cropping up in the ancient Orient, I recognized more and more that we Germans, apart from the scientific interest in other parts of the world, we neglected and forgot our own little piece of the world. I turned my interests to the German home history, and the European pre-history, especially the old Germanic religious history in myth, saga and fairy tale, It took all my attention. And in this frame there was also genealogy, which also had taken my interest when I was a student. Thus it came about that I lost interest in my scientific works dealing with the Orient, and I became more and more interested in the subjects which I have just mentioned, the subjects concerning the German man in history and the present.
Q. When did you join the NSDAP?
A. On the 19th of July, 1926.
Q. Will you make a small interruption, Witness, so that the interpreter has the chance to translate the sentences? How did it come about that you joined the NSDAP?
A. My very religious mother, who had died who had never cared very much about politics formerly, asked me at the beginning of the 20's to subscribe to the Voelkischer Beobachter, which was then a weekly. It was my first contact with National Socialism. My father was at that time a leading member of the Social Democrat Party in Neumuenster, and he tried to win me over into this party. Through my mother, in contact with the Voelkischer Beobachter, it came about that my father, as well as myself, got very interested in this young party. My father joined the party in 1925. The following ideological thoughts made me join in 1926: collapse of the Reich in 1919. Therefore, for me as a soldier it was the duty of conscience to do everything in order to have rescinded the Versailles Treaty, which I regarded as very humiliating.
I imagined that this could be done by an agreement. I regarded the Versailles Treaty as so humiliating because every one-sided agreement is always a chain.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, when you joined the NSDAP, you were already an ordained minister?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Just as a matter of information, did ministers generally join the NSDAP in Germany?
THE WITNESS: Yes, a large number.
THE PRESIDENT: Had you read "Mein Kampf" before you joined the National Socialist Party?
THE WITNESS: No, I had not.
THE PRESIDENT: Were you familiar with Hitler's views on religion generally before you joined tha Party?
THE WITNESS: I only knew what was generally known at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you regard Hitler as a God-fearing man?
THE WITNESS: At the time, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you ever have occasion to change your views?
THE WITNESS: Personally, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: When?
THE WITNESS: I was asked whether I had ever had the opportunity to change my opinions.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, did you ever change your views about Hitler being a God-fearing man?
THE WITNESS: After what I heard, after 1945, a number of things now appear in a different light to me.
THE PRESIDENT: You did not change your views about Hitler's religious attitude until after 1945?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know about the persecution of the Jews in Germany?
THE WITNESS: It depends , your Honor, what you mean by the persecution of the Jews .......
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know that Jews were deprived of their citizenship rights?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know they were deprived of their property?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not know that their property was taken away from them.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I shall deal more explicitly with this set of questions in the course of my direct examination, if you will permit me to mention this, within the frame of the whole thing.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Bergold, proceed.
THE WITNESS: I spoke of the Versaille Treaty which I regarded, as it meant a chain, as most humiliating. I hope that this mistake - this one-sided treaty - that in fact a mistake of that kind, will be avoided by the American Government so that no animosity of any kind will be brought up again. then nationalist parties did not seem capable, because they worked on too small a base. In this young National Socialist Party, a simple man of the working population who had begun as a simple soldier and had helped bear the whole hardship of a war, became the expression of the people' s will, and he became the expression of a strong national will whom one could not resist as a German man. Equally strong in me was the war experiences. I had lived in very close community with workingmen during the war, and I had experienced the comradeship which is unforgettable. Added to this is the fact that I, as a clergyman, regard the human responsibility especially towards those who are socially inferior, as an order of God. The solution of this social question, the urgent necessity to include the worker in the human system, of human society, was a necessity for me. I experienced in the NSDAP, a workman's party, which wanted to materialize this aim, and which was led by a man who knew and who had the same experience at the front during the war and who had shared the hard lot of the working man. A national and social element worked hand in hand with each other in the National Socialist Party, and promised to fight all destructive elements, and to create a people's community which wanted to equalize all classes of the population.
That was an ideal which none of all the other parties had, because they were to a larger or lesser extent only communities of interests of part groups of the population. The one man was the leader of this party who had a power of will and a power of reaching his aim which made the materialization of these aims -
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, it seems to the Prosecution the witness by no means gives his own impression. He gives a general lecture about National Socialism and about Hitler. I do not think that his lecture is relevant in this place, and I further think that the Tribunal is very well informed about what Hitler and the National Socialist Party were and what they did. I do not think that it is necessary for the witness to expound on this point further.
DR. BERGOLD: I must contradict the honorable representative of the Prosecution. The witness speaks merely about his own impression here of the party. It is correct, it sounds like a National Socialist speech, but it was just his own world of ideology and thought, which, of course, one must understand.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I had the impression that it was by no means understandable from the lecture of the witness that this was his personal view. He stated these things as established facts, never saying that, "I had the impression that it was that". He said Hitler was that; the National Socialist Party was that. He gave all these impressions entirely as established facts. He never said, "I had the impression, it seems to me for that and that reason," etc. He just lectured to us for about twenty-five minutes now what a wonderful thing National Socialism was.
DR. BERGOLD: I have to contradict the representative of the Prosecution again. Before the witness began he said the following sentence: "The following ideological thoughts were responsible for my decision to join the Party," and then he gave these thoughts as they struck him at that time as facts.
THE PRESIDENT: We will allow the witness to continue.
THE WITNESS: For my decision to enter the party was also responsible the very clear program of the NSDAP against materialistic Marxism and Communism. Q (By Dr. Bergold) Could you be a little more brief? thought, we want to destroy all culture, the thought of a class struggle, and a campaign against any religion, as it was called "opium for the people", through the creation of a larger extended Atheist community, as the Communist idea was in fact materialized in Russia, employing bloody means and catastrophical famines. Especially as a religious person I was confronted with the alternative, on the one hand, Bolshevism, that means the decline of the Occident with its religion and its culture, or Anti-Bolshevism, as I could only find in National Socialism at the time. I was under no doubt at the time that the churches will have to subscribe against Bolshevism, and the most shaking, the most overwhelming thing for me today is, that everything has come different, that National Socialism had to -
THE PRESIDENT: Now, are you talking about today or when you joined the National Socialist Party?
THE WITNESS: No, I just said something about today. My last sentence is an expression of what I feel today. Only the last sentence, your Honor. The other, the remainder of what I said was all the ideology, my thoughts which made me join the NSDAP.
I have just said that at the time I was of the clear conviction that the churches would -
THE PRESIDENT: We heard you. You don't need to repeat it. Continue.
THE WITNESS: What shakes me now is that the development became so different and that the Pope can still speak about Bolshevism in the same way as National Socialism used to at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, do you think that that is relevant, what he just said now?
DR. BERGOLD: That is his attitude today. I think it is of superior importance here, but I think he has now exhausted this subject. Q (By DR. Bergold) Witness, did any personal interest take any part in this decision to join the Party?
A No, never. I had my own profession which secured me a safe existence. I did not think of myself when I joined the party. I only thought of my people and this attitude I never changed. My life was spent in the service of the people and serving God. service to the church? Was there no conflict? service and my service in the party. The Evangelical the Protestant Lutheran Church had always been national until 1918. The head of the State was also the head of the church. Also the Protestant Lutheran Church always attached great value to sacrificing the highest percentage of blood when waging war. The solution of the social question is the nucleus of the existence, existence of the church, and the highest order of God are the words of Jesus:
"you must love your neighbor as you love yourself." Also Point 24 contains recognition of the positive Christianity.
Q What do you call Point 24?
Q What about the racial question? His Honor, the President, has directed your attention to the racial question.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, suppose we take that up after the recess? The Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken).
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please. The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, may I ask that the defendant Haensch be excused this afternoon from session, so that he will be able to prepare himself for his appearance on the witness stand, and, I also ask you to instruct for him to be brought to Room 57.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant will be excused from session in the court this afternoon, and arrangements will be made with the Marshal to see to it that he is taken to Room 57, so he may there consult with his attorney.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I have been asked to request that the defendant Ohlendorf be excused from attending session this afternoon because the Prosecution in Case 8 wants to interrogate him, and the fact that he would like to do some work of his own in his cell.
THE PRESIDENT: In accordance with the statement just made, the defendant Ohlendorf will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon. First, he will be taken to Room 57, then after the business there is completed, he will be allowed to confer with his attorney in connection with his own case.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, the last discussion just before recess was on the Party Program, and I now ask you what is your opinion concerning the racisl question, and what was your opinion at the time to what was contained in the party Program?
A. I wish to comment on this in the following, firstly, the Racial question, in particular the Jewish Program is not a religious question, but a biological question and a question of communal like; secondly, the question of various races is a fact which exist by the will of God, therefore, has to be respected.
Q. That is your opinion?
A. Yes, that is the opinion which I had at the time, which even in my theological capacity was not in contradiction with my opinion concerning the Party Program; thirdly, that the relation of various races among themselves be brought to a satisfactory solution, is, in my opinion is no crime against the Will of God, but rather a fulfillment of His Will; fourthly, violation of races results from race throry in my opinion is wrong.
Apart from that, the NSDAP was not the first Party to think about the racial problem, but in their early beginning they made an orderly and just solution of this problem a point of their program; that many things were changed later on no one could know; and I could not know if either, and no one intended this at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, just when was that you formulated the idea that the program of the National Socialist Party coincided and harmonized with your views on religion?
THE WITNESS: At the time when I joined the Party, I would like to point out that all views at that time were quite different from those things which became known to the public later on, -------------------
THE PRESIDENT: Then from 1926 until what thime did you still entertain the conviction which you have just expressed, namely, that the program of the NSDAP insofar as it pertained to racial questions harmonized with your views on religion?
THE WITNESS: Until the very end.
THE PRESIDENT: And you Lave told us that you were a student on the Old Testament?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And you were able to reconcile the National Socialist Party program insofar as it pertained to the Jewish question with the teachings of the Old Testament?
THE WITNESS: I hardly think, Your Honor, that the teachings of the Old Testament have anything to do with the later events in Germany, because, as I already said it was not a religious matter which was concerned, but merely a biological matter.