...as, for instance, church service, church office, institutions, mission, interior and exterior, military church service, and religious services in prison.
Q. That will suffice, these examples. I have to deal with another question, and I have to ask for patience on the part of the Tribunal. You were a religious man. The whole world seems to think that National socialism was an enemy of the church. Did that not worry you, the so-called animosity of National socialism against the church? Please be very brief in answering this question, witness.
A. I object definitely against the contention that the national socialist state was an enemy of the church or religion. All difficulties or conflicts between church and state, or party, are rooted in the state church - that means the still existing connection of church, and state which has not changed, as far as they were not free churches, of course. It is very significant that the free churches had no difficulties whatsoever. In the Ministry, on various occasions I talked with representatives of the Methodist and the Baptist churches, and I asked them whether they had encountered any difficulties - to which they always gave me a negative answer - and this is the decisive point. Because the religious activity in Germany was never limited in Germany, as a representative of a complete religious tolerance, as no representative of Orthodox, Protestant or Catholic religion, I should have found out about it. Limitations came about only ........ BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did this include the Jewish religion. You say there was complete religious freedom and tolerance. Did this include the Jewish religion?
A. Yes. I don't know that the carrying out of the Mosaic, that is the Jewish cult, was forbidden in Germany. I know nothing about it.
Q. Do you tell us that the Jews were permitted to worship in their synagogues untrammeled and entirely free?
A. Yes, that is what I assume; in the Reich Ministry these matters were not being dealt with. Modifications were only enforced which did not concern religious belief, but only the authority of the state. Measures were only taken and issued against people who left their religious sphere and disturbed the state with their political remarks or actions.
Q. Witness, do you know of what you said before, that the Jews were allowed to worship in their synagogues freely?
A. I said that I am not sure, because these matters were not dealt with in the Reich Ministry of Church Matters. I never heard anything about it that this was not the case.
Q. Is a synagogue regarded as a church? was it regarded as a church in your Ministry of Churches?
A. By the Ministry of Churches or by myself?
Q. By your Ministry, in your work, was the......
A. I said I only had to deal with the Protestant department, and the work of the Ministry extended only to Christian churches and their formations, or similar churches; b ut only Christian churches.
Q. Well, but you made the statement that there was complete religious tolerance in Germany. Now, did you make that statement, and if so, do you still affirm it? I ask you.......was there religious tolerance in Germany during the regime of the National Socialist Party?
A. Yes, as far as I know......yes.
Q. Very well. All right. Now you have affirmed what you said before.
Now I ask you.......were the Jews given religious freedom? Were they allowed to worship in their own church?
A. I don't know from my own knowledge, but I have no reason to doubt it.
Q. Well, then, you would say that so far as you knew, Jews were allowed to worship in the synagogues?
A. Yes, that is what I assume, as long as there was synagogues to worship in.
Q. There Weren't very many after November 10, 1938, were there?
A. I don't know whether they were all destroyed. I don't know.
Q. You do know that many were destroyed, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. And does that coincide with religious tolerance, to burn down the churches.....
A. No, I have already pointed out.....
Q. Well, then, why do you say that there was complete religious tolerance?
A. That was not a measure of the National Socialist state.....the burning of the synagogues.
Q. The destruction of the synagogues in November 1938, you now say, was not the result of Party action?
A. Of the state, I said. I said....of the National socialist State. I was in the Reich Ministry.
Q. Well, wasn't the State and the dirty one?
A. On paper. But not in reality.
Q. Was Hitler the State or the Party?
A. Hitler was both.
Q. He was both. All right. What was Himmler. Was he the State or the Party?
A. Well, he used to be only a Party official, but then lie became an official of the State as Chief of the German Police.
Q. Yes. And what was Goering? was he the State or the Party?
A. He was, as far as I can remember, only State. Yes, yes. Only State. I don't know whether he was part of any Party office. As far as I know he was only State. A State official.
Q. So then you tell us that after 1933 up until 1945 there was a definite cleavage between the State and the Party, they were not amalgamated?
A. I did not say cleavage. I only talked about disputes between these two authorities.
Q. Well, let us get back to the original question. You said that there was religious tolerance and you said that the Jews were allowed to worship in the synagogues; and then we call your attention that in November 10th synagogues were destroyed, or a great many of them were.....and then you said that that was not an action of the State, but an action of the Party. Is that correct?
A. Yes. As far as I know.
Q. Well, do you know.... or don't you know?
A. Well, I only know that it was not an action of the State.
Q. So that so far as the State was concerned the Jews were allowed to worship as they chose?
A. I said I cannot know this from my own knowledge because these matters were not being dealt with by the Reich Ministry for Church Matters. An opposite opinion or fact I have never heard.
Q. I don't understand what you mean by an opposite opinion.
A. I mean an order, or a measure whatsoever, which forbids the Jews to worship.
Q. You don't know of any order which forbade Jews to worship in their synagogues?
A. The synagogues, of course, were collecting points, or in private houses.
DR. BERGOLD: May I now tell the Tribunal that at least until the year 1938 the actual worship, the carrying out of worship, was allowed... there were regulations concerning this. At least until the year 1938. I don't remember for certain as from then, as there were so many who emigrated. BY THE PRESIDENT: accordance with their conscience - after 1938?
A (by the witness) I have already said I don't know, but I assume so. Because I never heard that it was forbidden. I cannot remember, I cannot imagine such a prohibition.
Q You can't imagine that there was any prohibition against the Jews with regard to the expression of their religion?
A No. That one could forbid people to carry out their worship -
Q They were allowed complete religious freedom?
AAs for as I know.... I don't knew of all the regulations, but that was the impression that I had.
Q Very well. Was it also your impression that they were allowed complete freedom of movement?
Q Well, if they were limited how could they go to the synagogue? If they were not allowed freedom of movement, how could they travel?
A Freedom of movement.... of course they could go out. There was no law that they could not go out. Freedom of movement - I mean, not only the actual movement in the street, but I mean living conditions.
Q You knew that they were sent to concentration camps, didn't you
A No, I didn't know.
Q You did not know that Jews were sent to concentration camps?
A No, I didn't know.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q I think we have exhausted this question, witness. I think the other points are only marginal notes. Did your had relations with the Ministry continue, or was a personal cooperation brought about?
Q Did you feel all right under these circumstances?
Q But you tried to improve the situation?
A Yes. As I knew that the Minister would only be pleased if I left the Ministry I asked the Reich Ministry of the Interior via the Minister to give me the position of county counsellor, "Landrat". This application was refused with the remark that I was not a lawyer. That was in the beginning of 1938.
Q Did you indulge in any Party political activities in Berlin?
Q You were a member of the SS. How did it come about that you joined the SS? the Gestapo from 1935 to 1936 I met a number of SS leaders. One day it was put to me whether I did not want to become an honorary leader in the SS. I considered this offer. And the following thoughts made me decide to accept this offer: Firstly the SS was known at that time as the most ideal, and the most unselfish expression of National Socialism, and was highly respected by the population.
THE PRESIDENT: For my own notes, what year was that, please?
DR. BERGOLD: 1936.
A (witness continuing) Secondly, the detachment from my homo, and being the only theologian under all those lawyers coming from the province this position as honorary leader in the SS appealed to me, and it contributed a certain prestige which I would have among my colleagues. Thirdly a position of honorary leader for civilian officers was then general practice, and did not oblige to anything, as no tasks were connected with it.
With the approval of the Minister, on the 13th of September 1936, I was admitted to the SS with the rank of an Untersturmfuehrer. When did you actually leave the church? ber 1938.
Q Why? political and church reasons.... did not have the same significance to me, but became more and more important. Therefore, it was only an act of sincerity and of belief, that in 1938 - after three years of inner struggle for the truth in the Christmas week - I applied for my release from the Protestant State Church. National Socialism?
A Never. It was not in agreement with my principles of religious tolerance which I claimed for myself as well.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, we got it..... "Did you ask anybody else to Join"? Is that what your question was?
DR. BERGOLD: Is leave the church.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, to leave the church. Very well.
Q (By the President) Well, then, witness, we understand that you definitely covered all connections with the church on December 28, 1933?
Q Yes. Have you ever regretted having left the church?
A No, never. Concerning this leaving the church, which I discussed with other people, I can say, when somebody came to me and asked me whether I deemed it right that the man who asked this question should leave the church or not, I always talked to him about his personal attitude and about his belief, and told him that he could only follow his Court No. II, Case No. IX.
own religious vocation. Utilitarian ideas would be a crime in this particular case. that you gave up contact or connection with the belief in God you talked about? You said your relationship with God was very close. Did you lose this belief?
A Never. On the contrary, my leaving the church only meant that I would remain faithful to my own conviction which I had formed from childhood. As I pointed out on one occasion, in my opinion a large part of the Protestant population described themselves unjustly as members of the Protestant church, that these people were not actually believing in Christ, but that they believed in God. I realized that here a new organization of religious life had to be created. Such an organization of people who believe in God was in my own conviction not to have a dogma. No priests, and no cult actions, as, for instance, sacraments. Their religious activities would have to consist firstly of constant realizing of one's Connection with God by praying, and through silent contemplation of Jesus by common worship. Secondly, through love in daily life to your fellow beings similar as it was realized in the organization of Quakers.
PRESIDENT: Does a Quaker church exist in Germany? This is a matter of information.
A Yes, but only in a very small form. I believe Piermont is the place where their center is.
Q You approve of the Quaker religion, do you? cause you didn't like the Protestant church, why didn't you join the Quaker church.
A. One does not join and embrace a confession quite as fast as that. It must grow on one. I had my own -
Q. When did you feel that you had fully grown and you liked the Quaker religion?
A. It is not a matter of my actually liking the religion of the Quakers, but I imagined a new development similar to the lines of the Quaker movement.
Q. But now you have told us of your own volition that you liked the way the Quakers conducted themselves, that you approved of their church. Now, do you stand on that?
A. I like them and I sympathize with them. I didn't say I agreed. I sympathized with them .
Q. Oh, you do not approve of their church either?
A. Well, I mean I have no close relations. I did not maintain any close relations with them. I only know that they are a religious congregation and they create a religious community on, their own lines.
Q. You left your church in 1938, and you had seven years to join another church. At that time did you know of the Quaker church?
A. No, I did not consider any of the existing religions, but my plans were different. I wanted to create a new organization.
Q. You wanted to create your own church?
A. Yes, if you want to express it thus. I would never call it church though.
Q. What would you call it?
A. I shall come back to this question.
A. No, no, tell me now. You are going to start a new church, what is the name of this new church?
Q. Community of People of Believers in God.
Q. I will write that down. Community
A. Community of Believers in God. I shall take the liberty togive some further explanation concerning this.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, there are some translation difficulties. There is a special word in German, "Gottglaeubig", which cannot be translated. It has a certain philosophical meaning, and the witness coined this word, "Gottglaeubig". It did not exist so far in the German language. This word only existed in the German language since 1936 and he coined it.
Q. (By the President) You created this word in 1936?
A. Yes.
Q. You were thinking about another church while you were already a part of the Lutheran church, because you didn't leave the Lutheran church until 1938?
A. Yes.
Q. You were sort of a heretic in your own church, weren't you?
A. Yes, I have already stated that. I put this question of sincerity to myself before, and therefore I left my office in 1935.
Q. Yes. Now, what have you done toward the establishment of this new church?
A. In order to prepare its organization, that is a difficulty which I shall now come to. I was not permitted to do so by the National Socialist State, to collect all those believers in God and to unite them in one big congregation. Only now after the collapse I have found out, as far as that is possible being interned, that circles of Thuringian Christians and those believers in God, with the permission of the British and American Military Government, formed their own religious groups in the way I have already said, and I myself spoke to representatives, and I am expecting thow that this congregation will mean a rebirth of religion in Germany, as I do not expect it of the existing churches any longer, because they always complain that so little living belief exists today in a population. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, I think you can leave this sphere now. You have already given us an idea that you coined this word, "Gottglaeubig," believing in God, and I don't think that we have to deal with any details now. You say the word, believing in God, "Gottglaeubig," does not mean being an atheist.
A. No, for me this word, "Gottglaeubig," is the strongest emphasis of a belief in God, not that a man says generally, "Well, there probably is a God." Believing in God in the true sense of the wordmeans to seriously reckon with God in all matters of daily life.
Q. Thank you, witness, that will suffice. Did you join the Army when war broke out?
A. No, not immediately. From autumn 1939 to autumn 1940 I remained in the Church ministry, and on the 10th of March, 1940, I joined the Wehrmacht, the Army.
Q. How long were you in the Wehrmacht?
A. From the 10th of March until the 22nd of October 1940.
Q. What rank did you hold?
A. I was private;in July 1940 I became a PFC and on the 6th of October, 1940 I became a non-commissioned officer.
Q. What were you employed for as a soldier?
A. I was a member of an infantry battalion, a home guard battalion which was attached to a Field Kommandature, for guard duty and reconnaissance duty in Mastricht, Arras and Rouen. After the Armistice with France I detached from the Army in order to join the military government. In this connection I made out an application to the Field Kommandature so that I should be taken over into the Military Administration Service. I was to be taken over and according to my rank become senior military administrative councillor.
Q. What was the end of your membership in the Wehrmacht?
A. One day I was ordered to see my battalion commander who told me that I was requested for special service, and that I would have to leave the Wehrmacht.
Q. Did you initiate that by a wish of your own?
A. No, that was a surprise to me. No, it was a surprise to me. On the contrary, I had expressed the wish to remain in the Wehrmacht for the duration of the war, and to be used in the Military Administrative Service. The detail for special service was not what I had wanted.
Q. When were you released?
A. On the 22nd of October, 1940.
Q. What happened after that?
A. A short while later I was told that I had to put myself at the disposal of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD for the duration of the war. This order was an order of the Wehrmacht in which it was said where I was to go for war service.
Q. Through this order then you went to see the Chief of the Security Service and the SD, without your wish?
A. Yes, against my wish.
Q. When did you report to the Reich Security Main Office?
A. That was about the end of October, but I first went on a recreation leave, in order to put myself at their disposal at the end of November for further use.
Q. What assignment were you entrusted with in the RSHA?
A. Nobody in the RSHA knew anything about my situation nor what was going to happen to me. First of all it was ordered that I should for general instruction, go through all the offices, that is through the Offices I to V.
Q.What impression did this create, this information tour?
A. The information I received only gave me a general impression which was, however, strong, but as between my actual professional work and this new sphere, there was no connection of any kind, all these impressions had no basis and vanished only too soon. Only a very few remained.
Q. What was it that remained?
A. Especially what I saw in the Jewish department concerning the solution of the Jewish problem, that is the very department which was competent to deal with these questions. According to this, nothing less had been planned than to give the Jews of Europe a new home which was on the island of Madagasgar. Negotiations with the French government had been started, to buy in an exchange for other objects, Madagasgar from France for this very purpose. Innummerable plans and charts, pictures, statistics on tables, on walls, showed how everything was to be carried out. Favorable climatic conditions, in connection with the fertility for the Jews, as it will not be possible in the case of Palestine, for instance. Here I got for the first time a concrete idea of a practical solution of the Jewish problem. The memory of this information which I received on that occasion remained with me.
Q. That is enough, Witness. Did you thus get the impression that in this information tour that you received a definite idea of what was happening in the RSHA?
A. No, never, because the information was so general that concerning the individual departments it was only very superficial. I had the impression that I was only shown the very best of everything. Secret matters, for instance, were not mentioned. One did not know, however, and I myself couldn't say what I was to do.
Q. Well, what happened after you received this information, this general information?
A. Shortly before this information tour was over I got a telephone call which said Heydrich had decided that I should not get a job with the state police, because I had refused to take over such a job.
Q. What did you do when you heard this?
A. I was very much surprised. I could find no explanation for this telephone message. I went to the then Personnel Chief, Streckenbach, in order to ask him what this telephone call meant.
I learned that the then Office Chief II, Lockermann, a man whom I did not know and a man I had never seen , had submitted a report to Heydrich concerning my own person on the basis of which Heydrich, in anger, decided against me in this manner. That was the first attack against me in this new office.
Q. What did you say to Streckenbach?
A. I told him unambiguously that I had never said anything of the kind, that I had never spoken to Lockermann; any taking over of a State Police job had never been mentioned.
Q. What advice did Streckenbach give you thereupon?
A. He advised me to revoke the letter of Lockermann and ask Heydrich for an interview. I did so, and Streckenbach promised me to bring about an interview. In order to clarify this event, I should like to add now, that it was, of course, true, that on the occasion of this information tour I very often touched the question whether a non-lawyer could ever take over a State Police office. I had the impression that this would not be possible, and I only wanted to hear the opinion of lawyers, who, of course, confirmed this, my opinion. Thereupon, maliciously, a refusal had been constructed, Heydrich had been informed of it , and therefore had been influenced against me.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, would you mind deferring now for fifteen minutes?
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. BY DR. BERGOLD: advised to do something against Heydrich's order that you were not to get that office in the State Police. Why did you not let the matter go, if it was your own opinion that you were not able to do this, no being a lawyer?
A I considered it very seriously at the time. I thought that Heydrich was offended by my rashness. Since I was in his power completely. I could not know what kind of task would be given by him. I was only interested not to spoil my relations with him through false reports by third parties; what I had to say I wanted to tell him myself, because I was convinced that he would understand me. That is why I believed to have acted in the right manner.
Q Did this discussion with Heydrich come about?
AAt first it didn't come off. I applied again and again until on 5 May 1941 I was ordered to Heydrich.
Q What happened during this discussion? What did you agree on with him? expressed his approval of me, because of my attitude and my character, which he considered decent. He asked me whether I would not like to be put into the Einsatz assignment, although I could not quite imagine what this meant. I only knew that it was some kind of police activity abroad. I asked him not to put me into such a position. I pointed out that I had been in the First World War, in combat, and only just now returned from the Western campaign. Heydrich agreed to this, and said that actually he had intended me as a Police Director or Police President, but owing to my knowledge of the church, and church politics, he considered it suitable to employ me in his office.
Q What did he suggest in this connection? Police Office. I explained to him how far removed the world of my spiritual profession was from the activity of the police; that I had no training and knowledge of police duties, and moreover, also that I was not even an officer, and, therefore, I was not certain whether I could carry out this task to his satisfaction. considerations? of character, which he thought I had, and he suggested to me that I should be given a State Police Office assignment for one year on a test. If he was satisfied with me, and I liked this work, he wanted to take me into the Security Police permanently, and at the same time promote me to Regierungsdirektor. If, however, he should not be satisfied with me, he wanted to assist me to be transferred into the inner administration, and also to be promoted to a government direktor. This promotion had already been due, since I had been a Regierungsrat since 20 May 1936. After considering this for a short time I accepted this offer. Police Office? would have done then, I do not know. It seems to me that I had achieved a good deal , and that it would be dangerous to risk this. I had the assurance not to be sent to the Einsatz assignment. I had his assurance to be allowed to leave after one year.
I had his assurance of a position in the inner administration, which was suitable for me. Finally, he wanted to support me to be promoted as a civil servant to become a government director, which had been omitted owing to my conflict with Kerrl at the time. This seemed more to me than I had over expected. he had intended you?
A No, he didn't tell me at the time. State Police Office, Oppeln, and when did this happen?
A Yes, about the middle of June, 1941. I was appointed, dated 1 June.
Q When did you start in the office?
Q What was your task in the State Police Office? departments. One dealt with the personnel department of the administration, and was lead by a Police Counsellor, and the other dealt with the actual police tasks, and was in the charge of a criminal counsellor. The actual police task was again subdivided into sub-departments, which were conducted by criminal commissars, under whose charge the criminal officials worked. The task of the Police Department was to make investigations of such persons who had been arrested because of political crimes. There were several possibilities of dealing with individual cases, and finding the person concerned not guilty, after being interrogated he was released; and, in minor matters the person was warned in writing or verbally, and also released. If serious matters had occurred, the procedure was started and handed over to the prosecution in order to bring it up in court, or to the Reich Security Main Office, Department IV for further decision.
Q Did the State Police Office have any other tasks? matters in public life. experience?
A Yes. It was basically prohibited without instructions from the Reich Security Main Office to take any measures for the State Police concerning the charge. One day it was reported to me that in several villages there had been trouble because a mob had gathered because the kreisleiter (district leader), and the landrat, had ordered between them that when the school vacation started, the crucifixes were to be taken out of the school buildings. When this had been carried out there was unrest. Through my officials I ordered that the crucifixes be brought back into the schools, because the action of the district leader and the local leader was illegal; and order was then restored. thousand voluntarily Bulgarian workers were working under certain conditions which they had been promised. One day a report was given by the supervising officer of the plant district that the Bulgarians intended to return home. The plant asked for the protection of the State Police. I immediately sent a criminal commissar, asking him to settle the matter. He called for a meeting of the one thousand Bulgarians and talked to them, reminding them of the duties which they had promised to carry out. The Bulgarian speaker informed me that the plant had not fulfilled the promises which they had made concerning the work, clothing and shoes, and also about transferring of their salaries to their home country.
