their work again immediately. The official, then asked for the executive staff of the works and issued the police order to fulfill the justified requests of the Bulgarian workers. This proved that the executive staff had intended to do this but they themselves had difficulties sometimes, but here we could interfere and thus we managed to eliminate all difficulties. or a large one? and compared them to the other state police offices in the Reich, I could see from the statistics that this was one of the smallest and the quietest state police offices in the Reich. From 1944 it did not exist any longer as an independent state office. during your time was anybody sent to a concentration camp?
A If anybody was sent there it was done by the RSHA. During my time, as far as I remember, within the area of the state police office at Oppeln nobody was sent to a concentration camp, but I remember just one case when somebody was released from a concentration camp. concentration camp? man, did not know them all.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you say this so far as you remember. As you remember no one was sent to a concentration camp from your office in Oppeln. Can't you tell us a little more definitely whether someone was sent or not? Certainly you would remember, wouldn't you, if you had consigned someone to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: These directives were not given by me, if any such existed; but the whole procedure was worked on by the department chief and through the criminal counselor who was the chief of the actual state Court No. II, Case No. IX.
police offices, who examined the matter carefully....
THE PRESIDENT: Did you recommend anyone for consignment to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: I do not remember that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, would you say definitely that you did not?
THE WITNESS: As far as I know, I never did that. I would have remembered now.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you put it in a negative fashion. You say you don't remember. That includes the possibility that you did send someone.
THE WITNESS: I want to exclude that possibibility.
THE PRESIDENT: You say now that you definitely remember that you did not send anyone?
THE WITNESS: Of course, this is a very difficult matter. I have to think about this and it takes time to think it over, and I have thought about it, and I cannot remember any case. Therefore, nobody would have been sent.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, do you say definitely you did not send anyone to a concentration camp or recommend that anyone be sent to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: Well, I say I do not know of any case.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that means then you did not send anyone?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Why didn't you say that at the very beginning instead of putting us to all this trouble of questioning you to finally get that answer? Why did you first say you didn't remember?
THE WITNESS: I had no reason. I just wanted to be careful.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, aren't you careful now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I think I am.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, tell us very definitely, did you or did you not, during the whole year that you were in charge of the state police, recommend that anyone be sent to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: As far as I know, no.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, we: are back to where we started from. Go ahead, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD: directives about sending people to concentration camps. Were you up to your tasks at all? Was it your impression that you could manage such a task?
A I had nad no training. When I started my work I intended to work myself into the matter, but I found such a great number of regulations and orders that I soon gave up my intention. Since it proved everywhere that even the simplest ideas were not known to me which one needed to understand the regulations legally and from a police point of view, I did not even have the most preliminary knowledge which any police official, however minor, did know about. Therefore, I depended entirely on my officials. Of course, they were all well established officials whom I could trust, but I could not act as a leader in order not to make myself ridiculous.
THE PRESIDENT: You knew nothing about police matters?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: And you remained there a year and knew nothing about police matters?
THE WITNESS: There was nothing else for me to do. I had to stay there for this test year.
THE PRESIDENT: And Heydrich sent you there himself and you knew nothing about police matters?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I pointed this out to him.
THE PRESIDENT: And in the whole year's time you never learned what the procedure was to send someone to a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: No, a whole professional training one cannot acquire in such a short time, particularly if one comes from an entirely different sphere of life like somebody who has had a spiritual profession.
THE PRESIDENT: Suppose that you learned that in the town of Oppeln there was, let us say, a Hans Smith, who made a declaration to the effect that he hoped that Germany would lose the war because it was an unjust war that she was waging.
That would you do?
THE WITNESS: I would have asked the man to come to me and would have told him to hold onto his own views and keep them to himself and just would have warned him; that is, I wouldn't even have done it because the matter would not even have come to me, but the officials would have settled it.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, suppose that you -
THE WITNESS: I never worked with individuals. I never carried out an interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, suppose it came to your attention that this man was talking against Germany? What would you do?
THE WITNESS: Well, I personally would not have done anything. The man would have been interrogated by the officials.....
THE PRESIDENT: No, you find out about this. You are on your way home one evening from the office and someone comes up to you and tells you that he overheard Hans Smith inveigh against the German Army, the German Government, Hitler and the whole National Socialist regime. He tells you. What do you do?
THE WITNESS: Nobody would have done this, I don't think.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let us suppose someone did. Peculiar things happen.
THE WITNESS: I would have told him, "Don't talk about it. Keep it to yourself, keep it quiet."
THE PRESIDENT: And you are the man that Heydrich thought was worthwhile having as a man in charge of the state police?
THE WITNESS: Well, I told him that I could not do this but he said, "You have common sense and good character; you will manage. We will try it."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let's go a little further. This man who stops you on your way home, says "By the way, I just found out that there is a plot on here to kill Hitler.
I heard the men talking about this; I know the house in which they gather; I saw some bombs being taken into the house and I want you to know about this, Herr Biberstein." What would you do?
THE WITNESS: I would have told him, "Go to Official So and So and report it to him."
THE PRESIDENT: And you would have done nothing?
THE WITNESS: Why, what could I have done? I didn't know what to do. I had no police directives.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all. Proceed, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD: that year? time I came to the conclusion to talk to Heydrich at the end of the year and to leave my office then. I only hoped and wished that nothing might happen for which they might make me responsible.
THE PRESIDENT: Just how did you out in your time during this whole year, beside avoiding people who told you about plots? Just how did you put in your time? You didn't read the directives; you didn't investigate; you didn't interrogate; you sent no one to the concentratin camps; you had a hard time putting in the whole year. Now, tell us just what you did.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that's quite true. At the same time I was political referent with the government president and I helped the deputy of the government president, I worked on files with him and I got detailed information about the tasks of the inner administration. Of course, I signed and sent reports to the RSHA but on the whole I always had to keep quiet because I didn't know all those matters. It would have made nonsense. I saw the things as they actually are and were.
THE PRESIDENT: So your big job was to keep quiet, keep invisible, and avoid people telling you about plots against Hitler.
That's the way you put in the whole year?
THE WITNESS: Yes, about this plot against Hitler I don't ouite understand. I said if anything like that came up I would have told this man who told me, to report this to the police official. He would be interested in this.
THE PRESIDENT: You would not be interested?
THE WITNESS: No, when I say, "Go to him", that is, then I had done everything that was necessary in my opinion because I can't arrest the people.
THE PRESIDENT: And you would go home feeling fine and entirely content that you had done your duty to your Fuehrer?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the official would then deal with it. I wouldn't know what to do concerning police matters.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, on the following day suppose you found out that nothing had been reported to the official in charge of investigations? Would you just lie low and do nothing?
THE WITNESS: In that case I would have told some official, "Go and see that man. He told me some story yesterday and examine the case." That would have been my duty as it is the duty of any citizen.
THE PRESIDENT: But not because you were the chief of the State police?
THE WITNESS: In that position I was a strange figure, I know that. I felt this very deeply, your Honor, because in Germany there was hardly any man of my kind to hold such office.
THE PRESIDENT: But in the meantime how can you tell this official to go find this man. You had not taken his address. You brushed him off by telling him, "Go see the police official. I just happen to be the chief. Don't bother me with this. I have to go home to go to sleep." You didn't even take his address. Now, how would this investigator know the next day whom to go see?
THE WITNESS: Probably I would have known the man if he had talked to me. I would have asked him, "Who are you?"
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you would have asked him, "Who are you?"
THE WITNESS: Yes, I would have asked him, to be sure....
THE PRESIDENT: And would you have written down his name and address?
THE WITNESS: I did not have a notebook with me.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I see.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, may I say something?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, Dr. Bergold, surely.
DR. BERGOLD: I think this is a hypothetical question. The misfortune is, and that is what I wanted to show with my question, here a man came out of a purely religious life and was suddenly ordered to take part in this office and he behaved like a surprised outsider and withdrew and did nothing.
THE PRESIDENT: But even a preacher would carry a notebook, wouldn't he?
DR. BERGOLD: True but this is only hypothetical. This case never arose.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Bergold.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, how did it come about that you were transferred to Russia?
A In May 1942 Heydrich died. While I was still considering how I would have to act under these changed circumstances, after the end of the test year and how I should be able to be relieved from the duty with the security police at the end of that year. Unexpectedly in the second half of July I received a letter from the RSHA which drafted me to Russia as Chief of Einsatzkommando 6 of Einsatzgruppe C.
Q What did you do in view of that order? by Heydrich completely. Heydrich was dead, and I did not know to whom I could talk about this. Therefor, I could do nothing except obey the order which was given to me as a war time measure. I did not imagine what kind of tasks I would have to do but I thought it would be something similar to the job in the stae police office. I made the preparations which were prescribed, namely, I had amedical examination and I was inoculated. I was in no hurry because I still hoped for the possibility that this order would be rescinded, During the examination by the official physician it was found that owing to a chronic gall bladder ailment, I was only able to do service to a certain extent. This certificate I immediately sent, not without hope, to Berlin. After that I received a teletype message instructing me to report to Berlin before going to Russia and to report to the RSHA there.
Q What was the result of this discussion in Berlin?
A In Berlin I was sent to Obersturmbannfuehrer Trautmann. He wanted to talk to me about my state of health.
During that discussion I heard that allegedly I had applied for a job as a commander in Russia. I was horrified about this lie and strongly denied ever having talked to anyone about an assignment in Russia, nor to have applied for a position as commander. On the contrary on that occasion I pointed out that Heydrich had expressly assured me and promised me that I would not be used in an Esternt assignment. I requested that my supposed application be given to me to see. Trautmann could not give me such a report to see because it did not exist. I understood from his words that somebody had made a wrong report again. I could not find out who had done this. An assumption on my part was denied and the name was refused to be mentioned to me. Trautmann then asked me what I intended to do. I pointed out that I had no choice as long as the order existed, but that I intended, by describing all that had happened, to ask that this order concerning the security police be revoked immediately and that I would not only not be sent to Russia. Trautmann advised me to go to Russia for the time being and to make application from there concerning this because that would make a better impression. order revoked from Russia? remain in Russia. I asked for my rights because, first of all, I had been promised by Heydrich not to be sent on Einsatz assignment; secondly, I did not want to be sent to Russia because of a false report; thridly, according to the discussion with Heydrich at the end of the test year, at last I wanted to be released from my duty in the secuirty police; fourthly, the entire work in the security police did not agree with me at all because of my personal manner of living as a theologian, without giving an estimation of the work as such; and fifthly, I could not belong and did not want to belong to any organization where I constantly met false reports as it happened in the security police and SD, according to the experiences which I had had.
I was tired of this terror, but still I had to go about it carefully. I thought I could not trust in anyone anymore.
Q What did you do as a result of that discussion? message and sent it to berlin.
Q How did Berlin react to your teletype message? message, not to leave for the time being that I regained some hope. After a week a teletype message arrived with the laconic information that nothing could be done about my transfer.
Q When did you receive the order of transfer to Russia? received on 16 or 17 July 1942.
Q When did you go to Russia?
Q There was a long period between that. Why did this take so long? of my offices to my successor. He was still in Riga at the time. After his return, before taking over the offices in Oppeln, he took leave for two weeks. Therefore, the transfer took place about the middle of August. A week later I had my discussion in Berlin and again a wekk later I received the teletype message that nothing could be done about my transfer. That is why I left for Russia at the beginning of September.
Q Where did you go to first in Russia? Chief Dr. Thomas, and he told me about the headquarters of the EK 6 which I did not yet know before I left because not even Berlin knew it.
Q How did your report go to Dr. Thomas, how did it take place?
could even report. Dr. Thomas made an inspection tour by plane over the Bent area. Then I was ordered to report on a certain date. I traveled with Dr. Thomas' adjutant to the Birkenhof, a small home near Kiev, where Dr. Thomas used to stay. Having arrived there a lady met us who was introduced by the adjutant to me as Dr. Thomas's wife.
Q. Did you talk to this lady then, and what did you find out?
A. Since there still was time, she talked to me on about SchleswigHolstein. She said she had a daughter there who had married a kreisleiter. I thought I had heard something there. I asked for the name and the location of the kreisleiter, (the district leader), and I found that her daughter had in her first marriage been the wife of kreisleiter Stier from Segeberg whom I had married in 1935 at the Segeberg. Thus my official reports gained rather a private character.
Q. Witness, did you utilize this private connection with Dr. Thomas to start some closer relations and to state your wishes?
A. The cause for this was not given by me because was not the adjutant doctor-- who announced me to Dr. Thomas but his wife simply took me to him in order to tell him about the strange meeting. That is why I came into a familiar discussion, and that caused me to express myself freely and to tell the doctor of medicine, Thomas - he was a nerve specialist to the security police up to the assignment in Russia.
Q. What did Thomas say in reply to this?
A. Thomas took very great interest in this and he told me that he had made it his task that all promises which Heydrich had made before he died be fulfilled in some way, in the way Heydrich meant them to be fulfilled.
Q. Why did he want to do it in the way Heydrich meant it -- who had ordered this?
A. At that time there was talk that he believed that he would become heydrich's successor, and for me this was just what I needed. He agreed to my intention to make application to leave, but before that he instructed me to travel to Rostov and to take over the commando officially Then for the meeting which was to take place at the beginning of October I was to return to Kiev and after looking into conditions and the task of the commandos to discuss further matters with him.
Q. Therefore, if I understand you rightly, already in this report you told your commander that you wanted to report to leave?
A. Yes. I told the Einsatzgruppe chief, Dr. Thomas, expressly that I intended to make this application according to my discussion with Trautmann in Berlin.
Q. And Thomas approved this?
A. Yes. He did not try to change my mind at all.
Q. What did Thomas tell you about the assignment in the EK 6?
A. He did not explain anything about it to me but merely told me in view of the meeting at the beginning of October 1942 would I describe to him my personal impression, after looking at the conditions and tasks of the commando on the spot.
Q. On that occasion, did Thomas tell you about the extermination orders concerning Jews?
A. No. No, he did not make this order known to me.
Q. How did you come to the EK 6 then and when?
A. As far as I remember, it was on 18 September 1942 when I arrived in Rostov with the EK 6.
Q. Did your predecessor then hand over the commando to you in Rostov?
A. No. My predecessor, SS Sturmbannfuehrer and Government Counsellor Moor had already left; before I had travelled to Rostov I had met him in Kiev during a luncheon and talked to him for a short while. He had to be in the Reich on a certain date. Heinformed me briefly about a few persons in the commando and apart from that told me to turn to Chief 4 in the staff. He, Moor, could say that the commando in its setup was in every way clean and conscientious is its work. He attached importance to it, that the officials as a whole carefully worked out their written interrogations, as they did in the Reich. Apart from that, the commando was already permanently stationed. He also told me that it was important always to see to it that the men of the commando carried out the written regulations carefully and cleanly. Apart from that, he had put everything in order.
This calmed me, because Moor, in contrast to me, was a trained lawyer and because he was an expert on procedure and so forth.
Q. Did Moor inform you about the extermination order of Jews?
A. No. Moor never as much as mentioned this.
Q. Please describe what you found in the EK 6.
A. The Einsatzkommando 6, when I arrived at the end of September '42 was no longer advancing but had been stationed already for some time. As I heard at the time, in winter of '41-'42 they had been in Stalino and there already they had started to adopt the same manner of working as the civilian office. When they received the order in the summer of 1942 to go to Rostov, this whole territory had already been worked on by other einsatzkommandos when advancing. The transfer to Rostov, therefore, was not an actual advance but transfer of locality of the commando which had already become stationary. Einsatzkommando 6 with its outer offices, had those headquarters which had been intended as fixed offices for the transfer which had been intended to be carried out very soon; the change within the Einsatzkommando to a commando office, on the occasion of the transfer to the civilian administration. The headquarters were in Rostov, permanent subcommandos were in Taganrog, Novo, Tscherrask and Schachty. Einsatzkommando 6 with its subcommandos was a permanent part of the setup of the army commando. The staff at the time was under the command of the army territory Don, the newly established army group Don with the commander Antonescu, the then government chief of Roumania. When starting my service I reported according to my duty to the commander of the army territory, a General Rothkirch. He gave me the order to look after the security of the army territory Don as before, and to safeguard it against civilian saboteurs, terrorists, and so forth. All military offices had been instructed in all cases which might occur to use the Einsatzkommando to assist them. The subcommandos were subordinate to the local commanders of the army, to the field commandos, or the local commandos, concerning their work. All these military offices and agencies had created a Russian criminal police consisting of indigenous personnel who worked under Wehrmacht supervision.
These detected crimes, investigated and worked on them and submitted them to the army office who handed this on to the Einsatzkommando or dealt with it themselves as the case may be. To the Einsatzkommando all those cases were given which were part of the task of the Einsatzkommando, namely, security of the army territory. All other cases were dealt with by the army on their own authority.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this may be a good point to adjourn, Dr. Bergold. The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal in recess until 0930 hours, 21 November 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
DR. von STEIN for Sandberger: Your Honor, I would like to ask that my client, Sandberger, be excused from attendance in Court all day today in order to complete his document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you want to see him in room 57?
DR. von STEIN: Yes, your honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Sandberger will be excused from attendance in Court today all day and he will now be taken by the Marshal to room 57 so he may confer with his attorney.
You may proceed, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD: the Einsatskommando 6 and you also talked about orders, about facts. What did you find out about the orders and activities on which this Kommando was based? between the high command of the Army and the chief of the Security Police and the SD which I did not see in writing but the basic ideas were told to me by the men of the Kommando and from conversations with the Army I found them confirmed. According to these the Einsatzkommando had to report all events which concerned the security of Army territory and which were threatened by non-military circles and had to deal with them under its own authority. The special order for Kommando 6 was an order by the Commander of the Army territory Don who put up notices in the houses everywhere in two languages.
In Rostov, for example the announcement was made by radio messages to the civilian population. This order especially mentioned that a death sentence would be imposed on the following cases: looting, owning weapons, attacks on military establishments, and information, attacks on military persons, espionge, sabotage, terror, and similar things. With these Army orders the Einsatzkommando 6 was therefore given the task to deal in an orderly police procedure similar to the State Police in the Reich, to deal with individual cases through their qualified criminal officials, and pass judgment in a written judgment, and finally to carry out the punishments. By carrying out these three things the sub-offices had to deal with details under charge of executive criminal officials, police officers. BY THE PRESIDENT: the province of the State Police. We ask that question because yesterday you said that you were entirely ignorant of State Police procedure when you were in Oppeln for a year?
A Yes. I said what was the task of the Kommando; about my personal position with the Kommando I have not yet talked but I shall make detailed statements about this yet. made that your Einsatzkommando was given the task to deal in the ordinary police procedure similar to that policy in the Reich to deal in such cases. Now yesterday you told us that you were not competent to pass upon State Police procedure because you were ignorant of this procedure. Now we ask you if you felt yourself competent in Russia to do what you told us yesterday you were unable to do in Germany.
Q You still didn't feel competent to handle State Police procedure?
Q well, let's make certain now about your answer. You were not competent to handle State Police matters?
Q In Russia?
Q And while we are on the subject, and it's important that we know as we go along - otherwise we can't follow the testimony comprehensively, before you left Germany did you know of the Fuehrer-order to kill Jews? did you know of the order to liquidate Jews?
Q When did you first learn of this Fuehrer-order? arrived in Nurnberg?
Q On what day did you learn about it in Nurnberg?
Q What day was that?
A It was the beginning of July. I don't know - 7 July - I am not quite sure that is correct.
Q Well, July 1947? that Jews were to be liquidated?
Q Even after your arrest didn't you speak; with your follow prisoners and in the conversation didn't it develop some time that there had been such a Fuehrer order?
A No, I never talked with men of the Security Police and SD. I myself was not known. The men at the camp hardly knew me.
Q Didn't you read in any of the periodicals about this order?
A I beg your pardon, your Honor, I hardly read any newspapers. All that happened after 1945 and the impressions I had after that were so tremendous that I could not quite digest it all, and therefore I kept away from all those things.
I hardly read a German newspaper. said about executing Jews? shooting of Jews I must answer in the affirmative. I did once hear about it-that was during the second half of June 1943 when I was in Kiev on my way to the Reich. At that time in Kiev I was told that many Jews had been shot in Kiev but in that connection I also heard that this is supposed to have happened because of burnings and dynamitings in the City of Kiev following the invesion by the German troops. I had the impression that this was retaliation measure against the people who had committed crimes.
Q What we are inquiring is whether you knew of the Fuehrer-order?
Q You don't know what I am going to ask you - whether you knew of the Fuehrer-order that Jews, Gypsies and asocial elements were to be liquidated?
Q Who was the leader of the Einsatzgruppe? Jews were to be killed?
A No. My conversations always dealt with certain subjects.
explained.
Q And your brother Kommando leaders - they never talked about Jews?
A Well, we never had say reason to do this. I only met other Kommando leaders who were leaders in Perpapetrowsla and in Stalino where I spent the night on my way from Kiev to Rostov. killing Jews? because I was inexperienced in that and I did not like to show any inexperience constantly.
Q And they never mentioned Jews? statement on the record let me repeat - you tell the Tribunal that the first time you learned - -
Q Now, what am I going to ask you? Tell me what question I am going to put to you? first time that a Fuehrer-order existed. Fuehrer-order for the first time and what the Fuhrer-order was? trials.
Q Well, when? testimony made here in this trial. the Fuehrer-order? ants .