could even report. Dr. Thomas made an inspection tour by plane over the Bent area. Then I was ordered to report on a certain date. I traveled with Dr. Thomas' adjutant to the Birkenhof, a small home near Kiev, where Dr. Thomas used to stay. Having arrived there a lady met us who was introduced by the adjutant to me as Dr. Thomas's wife.
Q. Did you talk to this lady then, and what did you find out?
A. Since there still was time, she talked to me on about SchleswigHolstein. She said she had a daughter there who had married a kreisleiter. I thought I had heard something there. I asked for the name and the location of the kreisleiter, (the district leader), and I found that her daughter had in her first marriage been the wife of kreisleiter Stier from Segeberg whom I had married in 1935 at the Segeberg. Thus my official reports gained rather a private character.
Q. Witness, did you utilize this private connection with Dr. Thomas to start some closer relations and to state your wishes?
A. The cause for this was not given by me because was not the adjutant doctor-- who announced me to Dr. Thomas but his wife simply took me to him in order to tell him about the strange meeting. That is why I came into a familiar discussion, and that caused me to express myself freely and to tell the doctor of medicine, Thomas - he was a nerve specialist to the security police up to the assignment in Russia.
Q. What did Thomas say in reply to this?
A. Thomas took very great interest in this and he told me that he had made it his task that all promises which Heydrich had made before he died be fulfilled in some way, in the way Heydrich meant them to be fulfilled.
Q. Why did he want to do it in the way Heydrich meant it -- who had ordered this?
A. At that time there was talk that he believed that he would become heydrich's successor, and for me this was just what I needed. He agreed to my intention to make application to leave, but before that he instructed me to travel to Rostov and to take over the commando officially Then for the meeting which was to take place at the beginning of October I was to return to Kiev and after looking into conditions and the task of the commandos to discuss further matters with him.
Q. Therefore, if I understand you rightly, already in this report you told your commander that you wanted to report to leave?
A. Yes. I told the Einsatzgruppe chief, Dr. Thomas, expressly that I intended to make this application according to my discussion with Trautmann in Berlin.
Q. And Thomas approved this?
A. Yes. He did not try to change my mind at all.
Q. What did Thomas tell you about the assignment in the EK 6?
A. He did not explain anything about it to me but merely told me in view of the meeting at the beginning of October 1942 would I describe to him my personal impression, after looking at the conditions and tasks of the commando on the spot.
Q. On that occasion, did Thomas tell you about the extermination orders concerning Jews?
A. No. No, he did not make this order known to me.
Q. How did you come to the EK 6 then and when?
A. As far as I remember, it was on 18 September 1942 when I arrived in Rostov with the EK 6.
Q. Did your predecessor then hand over the commando to you in Rostov?
A. No. My predecessor, SS Sturmbannfuehrer and Government Counsellor Moor had already left; before I had travelled to Rostov I had met him in Kiev during a luncheon and talked to him for a short while. He had to be in the Reich on a certain date. Heinformed me briefly about a few persons in the commando and apart from that told me to turn to Chief 4 in the staff. He, Moor, could say that the commando in its setup was in every way clean and conscientious is its work. He attached importance to it, that the officials as a whole carefully worked out their written interrogations, as they did in the Reich. Apart from that, the commando was already permanently stationed. He also told me that it was important always to see to it that the men of the commando carried out the written regulations carefully and cleanly. Apart from that, he had put everything in order.
This calmed me, because Moor, in contrast to me, was a trained lawyer and because he was an expert on procedure and so forth.
Q. Did Moor inform you about the extermination order of Jews?
A. No. Moor never as much as mentioned this.
Q. Please describe what you found in the EK 6.
A. The Einsatzkommando 6, when I arrived at the end of September '42 was no longer advancing but had been stationed already for some time. As I heard at the time, in winter of '41-'42 they had been in Stalino and there already they had started to adopt the same manner of working as the civilian office. When they received the order in the summer of 1942 to go to Rostov, this whole territory had already been worked on by other einsatzkommandos when advancing. The transfer to Rostov, therefore, was not an actual advance but transfer of locality of the commando which had already become stationary. Einsatzkommando 6 with its outer offices, had those headquarters which had been intended as fixed offices for the transfer which had been intended to be carried out very soon; the change within the Einsatzkommando to a commando office, on the occasion of the transfer to the civilian administration. The headquarters were in Rostov, permanent subcommandos were in Taganrog, Novo, Tscherrask and Schachty. Einsatzkommando 6 with its subcommandos was a permanent part of the setup of the army commando. The staff at the time was under the command of the army territory Don, the newly established army group Don with the commander Antonescu, the then government chief of Roumania. When starting my service I reported according to my duty to the commander of the army territory, a General Rothkirch. He gave me the order to look after the security of the army territory Don as before, and to safeguard it against civilian saboteurs, terrorists, and so forth. All military offices had been instructed in all cases which might occur to use the Einsatzkommando to assist them. The subcommandos were subordinate to the local commanders of the army, to the field commandos, or the local commandos, concerning their work. All these military offices and agencies had created a Russian criminal police consisting of indigenous personnel who worked under Wehrmacht supervision.
These detected crimes, investigated and worked on them and submitted them to the army office who handed this on to the Einsatzkommando or dealt with it themselves as the case may be. To the Einsatzkommando all those cases were given which were part of the task of the Einsatzkommando, namely, security of the army territory. All other cases were dealt with by the army on their own authority.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this may be a good point to adjourn, Dr. Bergold. The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal in recess until 0930 hours, 21 November 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
DR. von STEIN for Sandberger: Your Honor, I would like to ask that my client, Sandberger, be excused from attendance in Court all day today in order to complete his document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you want to see him in room 57?
DR. von STEIN: Yes, your honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Sandberger will be excused from attendance in Court today all day and he will now be taken by the Marshal to room 57 so he may confer with his attorney.
You may proceed, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD: the Einsatskommando 6 and you also talked about orders, about facts. What did you find out about the orders and activities on which this Kommando was based? between the high command of the Army and the chief of the Security Police and the SD which I did not see in writing but the basic ideas were told to me by the men of the Kommando and from conversations with the Army I found them confirmed. According to these the Einsatzkommando had to report all events which concerned the security of Army territory and which were threatened by non-military circles and had to deal with them under its own authority. The special order for Kommando 6 was an order by the Commander of the Army territory Don who put up notices in the houses everywhere in two languages.
In Rostov, for example the announcement was made by radio messages to the civilian population. This order especially mentioned that a death sentence would be imposed on the following cases: looting, owning weapons, attacks on military establishments, and information, attacks on military persons, espionge, sabotage, terror, and similar things. With these Army orders the Einsatzkommando 6 was therefore given the task to deal in an orderly police procedure similar to the State Police in the Reich, to deal with individual cases through their qualified criminal officials, and pass judgment in a written judgment, and finally to carry out the punishments. By carrying out these three things the sub-offices had to deal with details under charge of executive criminal officials, police officers. BY THE PRESIDENT: the province of the State Police. We ask that question because yesterday you said that you were entirely ignorant of State Police procedure when you were in Oppeln for a year?
A Yes. I said what was the task of the Kommando; about my personal position with the Kommando I have not yet talked but I shall make detailed statements about this yet. made that your Einsatzkommando was given the task to deal in the ordinary police procedure similar to that policy in the Reich to deal in such cases. Now yesterday you told us that you were not competent to pass upon State Police procedure because you were ignorant of this procedure. Now we ask you if you felt yourself competent in Russia to do what you told us yesterday you were unable to do in Germany.
Q You still didn't feel competent to handle State Police procedure?
Q well, let's make certain now about your answer. You were not competent to handle State Police matters?
Q In Russia?
Q And while we are on the subject, and it's important that we know as we go along - otherwise we can't follow the testimony comprehensively, before you left Germany did you know of the Fuehrer-order to kill Jews? did you know of the order to liquidate Jews?
Q When did you first learn of this Fuehrer-order? arrived in Nurnberg?
Q On what day did you learn about it in Nurnberg?
Q What day was that?
A It was the beginning of July. I don't know - 7 July - I am not quite sure that is correct.
Q Well, July 1947? that Jews were to be liquidated?
Q Even after your arrest didn't you speak; with your follow prisoners and in the conversation didn't it develop some time that there had been such a Fuehrer order?
A No, I never talked with men of the Security Police and SD. I myself was not known. The men at the camp hardly knew me.
Q Didn't you read in any of the periodicals about this order?
A I beg your pardon, your Honor, I hardly read any newspapers. All that happened after 1945 and the impressions I had after that were so tremendous that I could not quite digest it all, and therefore I kept away from all those things.
I hardly read a German newspaper. said about executing Jews? shooting of Jews I must answer in the affirmative. I did once hear about it-that was during the second half of June 1943 when I was in Kiev on my way to the Reich. At that time in Kiev I was told that many Jews had been shot in Kiev but in that connection I also heard that this is supposed to have happened because of burnings and dynamitings in the City of Kiev following the invesion by the German troops. I had the impression that this was retaliation measure against the people who had committed crimes.
Q What we are inquiring is whether you knew of the Fuehrer-order?
Q You don't know what I am going to ask you - whether you knew of the Fuehrer-order that Jews, Gypsies and asocial elements were to be liquidated?
Q Who was the leader of the Einsatzgruppe? Jews were to be killed?
A No. My conversations always dealt with certain subjects.
explained.
Q And your brother Kommando leaders - they never talked about Jews?
A Well, we never had say reason to do this. I only met other Kommando leaders who were leaders in Perpapetrowsla and in Stalino where I spent the night on my way from Kiev to Rostov. killing Jews? because I was inexperienced in that and I did not like to show any inexperience constantly.
Q And they never mentioned Jews? statement on the record let me repeat - you tell the Tribunal that the first time you learned - -
Q Now, what am I going to ask you? Tell me what question I am going to put to you? first time that a Fuehrer-order existed. Fuehrer-order for the first time and what the Fuhrer-order was? trials.
Q Well, when? testimony made here in this trial. the Fuehrer-order? ants .
the Fuehrer-order was when you received the Indictment. Is this correct?
Q Now, please answer this question. The first time you learned of the Fuehrer-order was when you got the Indictment, is that correct? mentioned in the Indictment. Fuehrer-order is when you got the Indictment- that is what you told us, isn't it.
Q No. You said to us that the first time you learned of the Fuehrer order was when you got the Indictment on July 7. Did you say that?
Q All right. Now do you stand on that? could I see what I was charged with and what the Prosecution charged me with. the Fuehrer-order was when you got the Indictment?
A Well, I don't know whether the word Fuehrer-order is contained in the Indictment and whether the contents of the Fuehrer-order is contained in the Indictment. first time you learned of the Fuehrer-order was when you read the Indictment? Do you stand on that statement? Do you confirm it? You made it a few moments ago.
Q Just a moment please. I ask if you stand on it. If you don't say "No, I didn't mean that" or "Yes, I did mean it." Now, did you mean it when you said the first time you learned of the Fuehrer-order was when you got the Indictment?
Did you mean it or did you not?
Q You did not mean it. All right, well, that's clear. When did you learn of the Fuehrer-order for the first time? during discussions with my co-defendants. I am not certain of that. It happened here in Nurnberg and I am not sure whether I talked to my codefendants or heard it from the trial.
Q Was it after you got the Indictment? co-defendants. place, the first time you learned of the Fuehrer-order was subsequent to July 7, 1947?
Q Which defendant told you about the Fuehrer-order?
A I don't know that, your Honor. I believe as far as I remember somebody asked me whether I knew the Fuehrer order and I said that I didn't know what you are talking about. But who asked me I don't remember.
Q When you said you didn't know what he was talking about then did this defendant tell you what the Fuehrer-order was? question was discussed here in the trial or whether it was before this. I don't quite remember, your Honor.
Q Witness, when you learned of this Fuehrer-order did it shock you? learned here in Nurnberg.
Q Well, we are talking about the Fuehrer-order. When you first heard of it you were shocked?
Q Now from whom did you learn of it?
A This shock I remember quite distinctly. This happened here in Court.
Q Yes. Then you did not get it from your co-defendants, you got it here in Court? in this Courtroom? after you had received the Indictment? here in this Courtroom? Court, is that what you are telling us or isn't it what you are telling us? you were shocked, Now where was this and when was it? of their race, that is what I mean. This....
Q All right. That's what the Tribunal is talking about. Now, when did you first find out that Jews were to be shot merely because of their race, merely because they were Jews, when did you first find that out?
Q And who was it that said it?
room when Ohlendorf was sitting where you are now?
A Yes. Of course, I read that Jews were shot but I did not know -that I saw in the Indictment but I did not know that the Fuehrer-order to that effect was the basis of this.
Nov.21-M-IL-3-1-Hoxsie (Int. Juelich) in the other large courtroom? opening statement? published.
Q Well, but you heard it being read in court, didn't you?
A It was read out in the Tribunal here, I don't know whether it is contained in this. was made to the Fuehrer Order?
A I don't know.
Q well then, it isn't true that the first time you heard it is when Hr. Ohlendorf mentioned it from this witness stand, is that right
A I don't know. deal, and when one is shocked one remembers later on when the shock took place. Now, tell us when you first learned of the Fuehrer Order which calls for the execution of Jews and gypsies just merely because they were Jews and gypsies, absolutely innocent, but they had to be liquidated. When did you first find that out, that such a Fuehrer Order had been made way back in 1941? When did you first find that out? the Prosecution, I remember it again. I didn't think of it at the moment.
Q Do you recall now the Prosecution's statement?
Q And was it mentioned in the Prosecution's statement? quite certain. I was particularly impressed by what Ohlendorf said here. This had made a stronger impression on me than the entire indictment and also the opening statement of the Prosecution. Fuehrer Order was when you heard Ohlendorf describe it and talk about it from the witness stand where you are now sitting? it was made by one of my comrades who spoke of his own experience about these things. subject, when did you first learn of the Fuehrer Order which decreed that Jews had to be killed because of their race? When did you first hear of that Fuehrer Order? trials. when you first learned it? indictment or in the opening statement by the Prosecution, then I must have heard it there already, but what I remember, and what impressed me, was that one of my comrades explained these things so clearly here, and that is what shocked me so. Fuehrer Order was when Ohlendorf described it here in this courtroom?
learned of the Fuehrer Order you would say that it was in October, 1947?
A It must have been about then, yes. I cannot remember now when Ohlendorf spoke. I cannot remember the month.
Q Well, it was last month, wasn't it, in October 1947?
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, may I add something to this discussion. I know about the other defendants, that my client always kept away from all the others, and in this aim he was also supported by me, because I wanted to have my client to myself. That is an old method of mine.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, when did you first see your client, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: I saw him in July, 1947, shortly after he was brought to Nuernberg. He was only brought to Nuernberg a few days before the indictment was served.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, you didn't know him before he became your client here?
DR. BERGOLD: No, never.
THE PRESIDENT: So you wouldn't know what he had done prior to that of your own knowledge?
DR. BERGOLD: No. I only say that I know of the defendant that he was always very retiring and reserved. His colleagues told me that, and I know from his own talk that he always kept away from his comrades, and I supported him in that attitude and advised him to keep on his own.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Bergold, you had many conversations with him before he actually came into court, didn't you?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you yourself ever tell him what he was charged with?
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, even I only heard about the Fuehrer Order when the case in chief was presented. I did not see sufficient from the indictment either.
THE PRESIDENT: So you didn't mention the fuehrer Order before he came here into the courtroom either?
DR. BERGOLD: No, no.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't mean to question you, Dr. Bergold, but we are just trying to get at the truth here.
DR. BERGOLD: I understand.
THE PRESIDENT: And do I understand that you didn't know about the Fuehrer Order until you got here in the courtroom?
DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President -
THE PRESIDENT: You don't need to answer that, Dr. Bergold. The only reason is you volunteered it, and when a person volunteers he has to stand a little bit of questioning on it.
DR. BERGOLD: Of course, your Honor, of course. I don't know whether I heard about this Fuehrer Order in the IMT trials, I cannot exclude such a possibility, but I confess-
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, just a moment. Let me tell you, Dr. Bergold, you are an attorney at the bar, and the Tribunal has admiration for you, and I would advise you to say nothing further about this because the whole IMT trial certainly discussed this Fuehrer Order, and I don't want you to be placed in any embarrassing position. Now, you may have not talked about it with your client, but please don't tell us that you did not know about the Fuehrer Order until you came into the courtroom, because we have the decision right here, the IMT decision, which talks about the Fuehrer Order.
DR. BERGOLD: That is right, your Honor, but I am telling you, don't forget one thing. I don't work only here. I am in charge of a lot of cases, and when one case is finished, I usually forget it immediately or else I cannot follow all my duties. I said it might have been in the IMT trials, but at that moment I did not remember it any more, and therefore, I did not talk to him about it, and that is a true statement.
THE PRESIDENT: We take your statement as being the truth, but we did want to, in a friendly way, suggest not to talk about it too much, because you only embarrass yourself, because the decision of the International Military Tribunal certainly makes a reference to this very sad event of the killing of the Jews because of the Fuehrer Order, that they had to be killed because they were Jews.
DR. BERGOLD: That is right. I told you I forgot it. I didn't think of it. One can forget the most terrible things.
THE PRESIDENT: Right.
DR. BERGOLD: The wisdom of life, which I learned from Goethe, his wisdom consisted of the fact that he forgot all terrible things immediately, and may I perhaps remind the Tribunal that when his own son died nobody was to remind him of this because he tried to forget it so that he could continue to live on his high level. Since Goethe has always been my ideal, I have always followed him, to forget terrible things.
THE PRESIDENT: I can assure you that although Goethe was very heroic in his resolve to forget this sadness which entered his life, once it was written on his heart, he never forgot it.
You don't forget deaths like that, Dr. Bergold. All right, let's proceed. BY DR. BERGOLD: tell us what did you hear about this written procedure? Police who investigated all the criminals and witnesses in writing, and if a crime had been committed, and if somebody had participated in a crime, the arrested person and his files were sent to the subkommando. The prisoners were sent to a prison and all objects were taken from them, which they had with them, as it is the custom in all prisons in legal procedure, in Germany. The objects were kept. Then the investigation started by the men of the kommando, and the judgment was passed, and every now and then, according to the death sentences, the executions were carried out. I want to mention that also prison terms were conferred. After the death sentences had been carried out, the personal property of the person concerned was confiscated by the German state inasfar as it existed, as this is done with usual death penalties based on such crimes.
Q Did you know the Hague Convention of land warfare?
A No. Owing to my entirely different training I never heard about it. I did not even know when I was interned that the Hague Convention of land warfare existed. During my presence here my defense counsel asked me about it, and he found that at first I misunderstood him. I thought he said Court "procedure" and he laughed at me and found that in fact I did not know about this.