THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, my only question is that, and please do not give so extended an answer. You have now stated that you have no reason to doubt the correctness of these reports. Therefore, if 1224 Jews were shot by your organization before you took over, does it not seem strange to you that in all the time that you were with the very men who conducted these executions, that not a word was ever said about so extraordinary a phenomenon as the execution of 1224 human beings because they were Jews?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can only say, I did not know anything or hear anything about this at the time. In particular I did not know the Fuehrer order until the moment here in Nurnberg.
THE PRESIDENT: No please, listen witness. The trouble is that either you pay no attention to the question or you listen to the question and then you figure out in your brain how you can answer everything in the would but the question put to you. You give yourself a lot of mental exercise, but you give us very little information. If you don't understand the question just say, "I am sorry, I don't understand the question." third time I am putting it. You admit the correctness of the reports. If you admit the correctness of the reports then you must admit that some time before March 4, 1224 Jews were shot by your Kommando. You were not there. Now, I only ask you, does it not seem strange to you that although these very men that you were now commanding had just a short time before, killed 1224 people because they were Jews, that nothing was ever said about it? Does that not seem strange COURT II CASE IX to you?
THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, nothing was mentioned and nothing was said about it.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all, thank you. Proceed, Dr. Riediger, with your next question. I see we can never get together on these things.
BY DR. RIEDIGER: did any executions take place?
Q Can you remember how many executions took place during your time?
A Yes. I personally know of four executions. were the victims of these killings?
A Yes. One execution occurred in April, that is to say my main commando in Gorlowka. This execution, like any other executions, included the smallest group of persons as far as I remember. There were about 25 people to be executed. Also in April by the subcommando in the area of Artemowsk an execution tool place during which also a group of saboteurs had to be executed. These were approximately - I don't know the exact figure - approximately 15 to 20 people. A third execution took place in the end of May, again in my commando, the main commando in the area of Gorlowka, and this concerned six or seven persons. I know exactly that these were fewer than ten. As far as I remember, there were six or seven. And the fourth execution occurred also at the end of May or beginning of June. It was carried out by a subcommando which had been newly formed when the Russian attempt of invasion near Kramatorskaya had been cleared there carried it out. It was a group of about ten persons whose case was not decided by the subcommando, but these persons were sent to the subcommando by the army with the order to carry out the execution. the army sent people to SK 4B to be executed?
A No. This case near Barvenkova and which I witnessed there at the time, occasioned me to discuss the order with the army immediately, the competent office, pointing out to them that in my opinion that in such cases in which the army carried out the investigations and had made the decision, that then units of the army or the secret field police, that was the one concerned at the time, should also carry out the executions.
This was recognized too. necessary?
A I don't quite understand. to the army high command? the away were, of course, informed of it, that is, they knew about it already because while making investigations about individual cases, they also took a part. Apart from that, the army was informed of this, of course. there any women or children among them?
Q What was the cause for these executions? who had violated the war laws, and this had been proved unambiguously. These were saboteurs, obstructioners, looters and so forth. I can not say it exactly any more now, of course. arrested who were then executed?
A May I tell about the kind of activity of the commando? The commando guarded the security of the front area. Of course, its own limited forces, including the subcommandos, there were not even a hundred men, about 70 or 80 men, could not look after the complete security of the front area. Its activity consisted mainly of observation and through reports received from the civilian population, from army units or army offices, it checked these reports, followed up suspicious traces and, if necessary, made arrests.
First of all, searchings were made by officials. After that, if the arrest of persons was necessary, the persons arrested were kept in custody by the main commando or by the subcommandos and against these persons a very careful procedure of investigation was carried out. Proof had to be brought; witnesses were questioned. Of course, the accused person was heard - was heard repeatedly. About these investigations minutes and records were made. And these investigations and interrogations were carried out by the chief of the executive department, the information chief, and the interpreter, and also by the person in charge of the screening. BY THE PRESIDENT: the records, if necessary? first of all until the case was decided and then for sometime afterwards, but then they had to be destroyed according to the orders that no written material was to be kept. But partly they were -
Q How long would they be kept? here, some of them -these records kept? at first, and some of them -
Q Now, just a moment, how long were they kept? "A short while" means nothing, because it is a relative expression. "A short while" under certain circumstances could be five minutes, it could under other circumstances be five years. Now, how long were they kept? the t ime when the execution was carried out, there was a certain period of time.
During that period the records were kept.
Q Well, were they destroyed?
A Then after the execution had been carried out, they were destroyed: whether this was done immediately by the chief of the executive department or the executive officials -I don't know that any more now.
Q How soon after the execution were those papers destroyed? eight days. I am not quite sure. Instructions were given that they were to be destroyed then.
Q They were to be destroyed eight days after the execution?
A No. There was no instruction that they were to be destroyed eight days after the execution. anyone who wanted to know why the men were executed could look at the records and find out? Now, how long were these records kept? records of the cases be not kept after the case had been concluded, but that they were to be destroyed. I said before that they existed for some time yet, and that is what I was trying to explain before, It was like this.
Q Now, witness, don't make your answers so long. It is obvious that records are made in order that those who have the right to know as to what took place may examine them. And it is obvious that after an execution if one wanted to find out why the people were executed that it would be necessary to look at records, otherwise, people could just be killed indiscriminately and no one would know why they were killed. Now, that is the reason records are kept, and that is the reason I presume you kept your records, so they would be kept a reasonable period of time after the execution. Now, I want to know what was that period of time. final report which was made by those conduction the investigation and everything connected with it, after all, were those documents which were needed in order to come to a verdict by the commands leader.
Q Well now, won't you please answer the question, how long after the execution were these papers kept before they were destroyed? remember it.
Q No, no. You either have to tell us that they were kept a certain period of time or that you don't know. Now, don't try to think of something else to tell us, but answer that question. Now, how long were they kept? case had been concluded and they were destroyed, but I would like to add that it was like this that in most cases the records were sent to the secret field police of officers of the army who, if necessary, were interested in this concerning information in general. That is what I meant when I said "for a certain time these records were kept". but the order existed, as I said at the beginning to destroy them and they were destroyed - that is to say to be destroyed after the case had been concluded and the case had been concluded when the execution was carried out.
I cannot say any were now whether the executive department destroyed these documents the following day or one day or eight days after the execution, that is in such cases in which there was no more interest in these cases from an information point of view.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. KOESSL: Representing Dr. Aschenauer for the Defendant Ohlendorf. I would ask the Tribunal to excuse the Defendant Ohlendorf from attending the court tomorrow so that the Defendant Ohlendorf can finish his document books.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Ohlendorf will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow so that he may work with his counsel on his document book.
DR. RIEDIGER (Attorney for the Defendant Haensch): May I proceed?
THE PRESIDENT: please do.
Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Dr. Haensch, did you conclude your explanations and statements concerning the procedure of investigations, or did you want to add something? of investigations, or did your want to add something?
A. As far as I know, I have only explained the actual scarlites and the investigations carried out, but I have not come to the conclusion yet.
Q. How were the decisions made then?
A. The investigation executive officials who were all experts, confirmed guilt or innocence on the basis of their investigations, of the person concerned and they put this into a conclusive report, putting down all the details and suggested the sentence and the participants in this investigation, the leaders and the officials, then in a number of cases reported to the kommando leader, convened at his place, and then deliberated on the final conclusionThe Kommando leader then made the decision, and, in this case, it was myself who decided upon those cases, whether the suggestion was to be approved, whether it was to be amended, or whether any other elements had come up which made further investigation necessary.
Q. If the results justified the necessity of execution, how was the execution carried out?
A. The executions were carried out by shooting.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, was this procedure in effect review, decision, and so on?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it was carried out in the same way as it had been done before.
I carried it on in the same manner.
There was an existing regulation -
THE PRESIDENT: WHO told you about the manner of the procedure?
THE WITNESS: When I asked predecessor Braune, he told me briefly about the manner of procedures.
He said the investigation result is being reported and then leaders
THE PRESIDENT: Did he tell you about the procedure?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but -
THE PRESIDENT: That's all that was asked you. Did he involved executions where he had been the kommando leader?
THE WITNESS: He did not use those words, of course,
THE PRESIDENT: Now, you don't need to--Why must you tell us again now what the procedure is.
We know what the procedure is.
You have outlined it to us. All I ask is, all cases which came before his kommando?
THE WITNESS: No, that he did not tell me.
THE PRESIDENT: Did he say that he used that procedure?
THE WITNESS: Well he told me it is proceeded in the following manner: The Executive Officials reported about it -
THE PRESIDENT: No, no, no. I'll be able to recite this backwards, if you tell it to me again, what the procedure is. I only asked you if your predecessor said to you that that was procedure which he followed, the procedure which he outlined to you.
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. He told me this is the manner in which it is being done.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, please proceed, before he starts again. Ask him another question Dr. Riediger.
Q (By Dr. Riediger) How were the shootings carried out. Sometimes there were ten, or under ten, or then to twenty people, as I understood you, who were shot together. Did they have to take off their outor clothing, or, how was it gone about? tive authorities to the effect that the persons concerned who were to he shot should not witness a preceding execution. With these executions it was thus that the people who were to be executed were formed into groups, and three were led to the place of execution. The execution was carried out and before the next group arrived at the place of execution the corpses were taken away. There was an explicit order to that effect. the part if other units? mations of army units. For instance, in the AOK of the Army there was an anti-partisan combat unit.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you said that corpses were taken away. We don't quite understand that. Were they not buried there?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, the corpses were buried and they were put into the ditch which had been dug and they were carried into this ditch, but --
THE PRESIDENT: I see. And they were shot three at a time?
THE WITNESS: One, two, three persons, that is so.
THE PRESIDENT: How many made up the execution squad?
THE WITNESS: The execution squad consisted of six to seven people. It was a group of six to seven people who fired.
THE PRESIDENT: ALL right Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Were there extensive executions on the part of other units during your time and did that effect the frontal situation and how was that frontal situation at your time?
A. The situation at the front concerning the security of the frontal zone was such that insecurity became stronger and stronger, as I was told by people in the Army with the Russian invasion in the northern frontal area which took place at the end of January or the beginning of February, as I was told.
Q. Did SK 4B have anything to do with these anti-partisan combats through the Army?
A. Yes, in so far as on the part of the Wehrmacht such anti-partisan combat actions were also dealt with by their kommandos. I had extensive discussions with the officers of the Army and I was under the impression that -- it was, in fact, expressed that the Army in order to support the officials of the Secret Field Police, recommended the fact that they had officials of the kommando and men of the kommando for their use; as far as operations for executions were concerned, which were carried out by units of the Wehrmacht, the Kommando had nothing to do. The officials or the men who were detailed for such purposes in this case came under the commander of the Army, the military commander, that is, of the unit.
Q. Did the execution activity or general activities in this sphere -- did this take up all your time, or what was your main activity during the time you were with Einsatzkommando?
A. The executive activity of the kommando was not the sale task of the kommando, as such. Perhaps I can make it even clearer if I say that the securing of the frontal zone which was the task of the kommando did not only mean the apprehending of people and execution of guilty persons, but it also contained the apprehension and investigation of the general morale within the population, and I want to point out one things here.
During my time in the frontal areas of the 17th Army, there was famine. There was even a famine that the military authorities were very worried about it. That was also a part of the assignments of the kommando to find ways and means and assist the Army in order to cope with these conditions, because otherwise, of course, they were contributing towards the insecurity of these areas, and just this assignment alone took up very much time and we took it very much to heart. At the beginning of Spring, it was tried with every means to further the cultivating of products of the fields, and to be able to cope with the food supply. The roving about of the population was a problem in itself. The roving about of civilian outside of their local residence was forbidden and was liable to be punished by death: but it could not be prevented that the population left their places and a solution had to be found to this particular problem. During my time it was found and the roving about of the population was no longer punishable except at on particular area if 10 kilometres width, which was behind the front line, but there was a threat that every civilian who was met there was punishable by death and that, of course, he would immediately be shot at, but in this manner we were able to free one particular sector in which the population could find food which was hidden here and there and they could proceed to search for it.
THE PRESIDENT: Do I understand you to say, witness, that part of your activities consisted of planting fruit tress in order to relieve the famine?
A. Your Honor, no. There were other measures.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I have here in my notes that you planted fruit trees. Did I misunderstand you?
A. No, no, no. We did not plant fruit trees, but we tried to employ the population who could work to encourage them that in the spring they would plant various kinds of things - food.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, did you say something about planting fruit trees?
A. I am not aware of hiving used that word.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then perhaps I misunderstood. That's what I got - that either you planted fruit trees or you had somebody plant fruit trees and I was wondering what kind of a tree it was that would fructify so quickly that in two months time you would have fruit to pass around to the population.
MR. HILDESHEIMER: I think it must have been my mistake, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Mr. Hildesheimer. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q. How and when were you detailed from your Kommando and recalled?
A. In the middle of June I was recalled. I got a radio message and I was supposed to leave immediately.
Q. When did you leave the kommando and who did you turn it over to?
A. I have already said I left the kommando a few days after this, after I received another radio message to leave immediately. The leadership of the Kommando was given over to the leader of the executive department.
Q. Where did you go? Did you go back to the RSHA?
A. First of all I was taken over again to my former position in the RSHA.
Q. How long did you remain there?
A. There I remained until July 1943.
Q. Did you go on with your attempts to leave?
A. Yes. I used Heydrich's death as and occasion to talk to Streckenbach and request from him to agree that now I would be able to leave. Streckenbach basically agreed to it but he thought that at the moment it would not be feasible. I would like to add here this was due to conditions of the War and that there was a lack of staff and that leads to the fact that my attempts until then had been of no avail.
Q. Were you offered any positions during that time?
A. During that time - not at first. I tried - this again I had reported to Streckenbach - I, as I said, tried myself to get s some authority to ask for my services and when, I think, that must have been in January, Kaltenbrunner took over office in the RSHA I approached him immediately with the same request i.e. to release me. I was under the impression that he basically agreed but he again said it would not be feasible at the moment but in a few months he would not object. Then I learned - that was the beginning of 1943, the spring of 1943 - that the Plenipotentiary in Denmark, Dr. Best, was looking for a higher administrative official for his administration department and I applied for this job. In the spring of 1943 this job was actually offered to me and I immediately accepted it.
Q. Had you not been offered a position before-that is what I meant when I asked you this question.
A. Yes, two positions were offered to me. One was the position offered to my by Kaltenbrunner immediately, for the second time by Kaltenbrunner through the then office chief Schulz, a position in the General Government which I refused.
The next offer made to me was that I was requested whether I should take over a position in the party Chancelery. This I refused also.
Q. Why did you refuse?
A. I refused because my aims and my attempts for the last years and my only wish had been to work in the General Administration.
Q. When you accepted the position in Denkark with Dr. Best did you actually leave the RSHA or were you only detailed to another position?
A. I left the RSHA as far as personnel goes and also physically.
Q. What did your activities in Denmark consist of and was it in connection with the SD or RSHA?
A. No it was not connected with that as I have already answered in my preceding answer. It was pruely a position of Interior Administration. I was detailed by the Reich Minister of the Interior via the Reich Minister of Foreign Affairs to the Plenipotentiary and I was active there in the section administration and law with the office of the Plenipotentiary in Denmark.
Q. What did your activities consist of in detail? Your activities, that is, with Dr. Best?
A. It was a purely administrative task and my special assignment under War conditions prevailing was to reconcile the interests of the German Occupation Power and the relationship of the Danish authorities and the Danish population.
Q. How was your relationship in Denmark with the Security Police and SD?
A. I had no particular relation but the relationship with the German Police as such did exist naturally. That was conditioned through the situation in Denmark and I was in strong opposition with them eventually.
Q. How did this opposition come about?
A. When I arrived in Denmark, in the end of August 1943, the disarmament of the Danish Remaining Army had just been brought into effect. That happened in the manner which pointed out the contrast very strongly between the Germans and Danes. In the course of these measures numerous arrests had been carried out, arrests of Danish civilians. The Retch Plenipotentiary, when I reported for service, assigned to me a special task which was to investigate the individual cases of the arrested persons by the requests of the Danish Central Government and which resulted that the larger part of those people who had been arrested had to be released as sufficient reasons had not been established to keep them under arrest.
Q. Do you remember any other cases in which you assisted people who had been arrested or interned?
A. Yes on numbrous occasions I tried to assist and find out about individual cases and tried to avoid any unnecessary harshness which I thought was in our mutual interest. On occasions the German Police by orders, I should think as, however, I only found out after 1945, of higher authorities in Berlin carried out vigorous measures. This in fact resulted in severe opposition to the German Police and, as I said, I tried to settle this.
Q. Did you have anything to do with internment camps?
A. Yes, as far as American and English internment camps were concerned. English and American citizens when the country was occupied had been interned in internment camps in Denmark under Danish supervision, but the general control of this supervision was in the hands of the authorities of the Plenipotentiary.
Q. In what direction did you develop your activities concerning interment camps?
A. A number of things had to be settled and directed. For instance, schooling for children of these internes, mail service that had to be discussed with the Danish authorities, religious ser vices, films, literature, and so on, - everything that concerned internment life.
It became even more topical, I think, in the spring of 1944 when camps had to be shifted and now it was necessary to find inhabitable areas.
Q. Didn't you have anything to do with Dr. Schirmer at the time and who was he?
A. Yes in 1944 these internment camps matters were dealt with by the Vice President of the Red Cross the Swiss gentleman Dr. Schirmer and I convened with Dr. Schirmer on various occasions d during a few days and talked matters over with him.
Q. Did he give any judgment concerning internment camps which you had under your supervision?
A. Yes. Dr. Schirmer, as well as the Danish authorities, always approved of my measures and Dr. Schirmer especially said that the supervision of these camps had been the best he had seen in Europe, the best of all the camps. Therefore, he approved explicitly of my measures.
Q. Did you not also have to deal extensively with seizures in Denmark?
A. Yes. That was within my assignment - to settle between the occupation power and the population, the claims and demands of the population. The occupation authorities, of course, needed apartments and offices and, of course, as is always the case, minor petty officials took very rigorous and inconsiderate measures and wherever I could I intervened and tried to settle the harshness and misunderstanding.
Q. Did you not also have to do with a certain actress Lulu Ziegler and did you help her to escape into a foreign country?
A. That is the following case of the Danish actress Lulu Ziegler, her husband, during the course of these arrests in the autumn of 1943, had also been arrested. He was suspected and accused of having indulged in Communistic activities, thus acting hostile to the German Reich.
She applied to the Plenipotenitary Dr. Best. Of course he knew her. So, I said, she applied and in the course of the investigation of these cases I came upon this particular case and I had to establish that there was nothing against her husband, nothing but the fact that years ago, about five or six years ago, he had on one occasion travelled to Moscow. According to the information of the Danish authorities he wasn't a Communist nor indulged in Communistic activities - far from it. I attempted to have him released.
Q. What was the attitude of the Danish population toward your activity?
A. Many Danes who had approached me, or who had been sent to me by the authorities, - from these many Danes I received letters of thanks on many occasions.
Q. And what impression did you have of your own activity in Denmark?
A. The activity in Denmark was for me very successful --psychologically, it was satisfactory, and, for the first time in yea rs, I felt that I was acting in a way which was satisfactory to myself.
Q. How did you leave Denmark, and when?
A. I left Denmark after the capitulation, following German directives which I had received, when the unit of my own office had to leave Denmark, and that was --BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you say you were quite happy with your services in Denmark, and you came away feeling that the Danish population were quite happy with your administration.
Have I understood you correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. And no one ever voiced any complaint about your occupation there -- to you?
A. Your Honor, you mean the occupation as such?
Q. Well, --- yes, you as a representative of the German occupation. If they were satisfied with you as a representative, then I presume you intend to convey the idea that they were satisfied with
A. I don't understand.
Q. Well, you have told us that the Danish people were quite happy with your administration in Denmark.