Q Well, these pictures were sent to Mrs. Haensch?
Q Were they sent by messenger?
Q Then how did the mailman collect the money?
A I don't know whether it was sent by mail or whether Mrs. Haensch sent the money or whether she brought it herself-- I don't know. It is possible that my employee received it. call and pay?
A I don't know that any more now. delivered, wouldn't you?
A I don't know exactly. It is possible that it was sent later on, either the messenger brought it to me--I am not sure. pictures and later on the money would be paid? receive the money for the pictures?
PRESIDENT: Dr. Riediger, if you have no further questions to put to the witness, the witness may be excused.
DR. RIEDIGER: I have no further questions of the witness.
PRESIDENT: The witness will be excused and the defendant will be taken back to the witness stand. And you are instructed, witness, not converse or communicate with Frau Reich until such time as she has testified in the Tribunal. Do you understand that?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I know that.
MR. HOCHWALD: May I proceed, your Honor?
PRESIDENT: Please.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q Dr. Haensch, you have told the Tribunal that you were dismissed from your position in Doebeln as you made a report on behalf of the mayor with a difference of the kreisleiter? Is that correct? of this city administration on behalf of the city administration for the Foreign Office, namely, the SD.
Q Was it the only reason that made this report?
A Yes. I don't know what other reasons I might have had.
Q You did not know about the existence of the SD, is that correct? of the SS who were competent for such things. Only I heard about this for the first time through this SS leader; after the report had gotten into the hands of the kreisleiter, this SS man came to me and told me about it.
Q I would like to refer to Document Book IIIC; page 53, of the English, page 86 of the German; document No. 3261; Prosecution Exhibit 141. This document, Herr Haensch, is your life history which you made out yourself in August 1937 for your SS files. just above the heading, "page 5 of the original". It is in the middle of page 53 in the English, Your Honor. This paragraph needs, "on 15 February 1935 I entered the employment of the Municipal Administration Doebeln as an Assessor. There I was dismissed on 15 July 1935. The underlying cause were discrepancies between the Municipality and the NSDAP Kreisleiter (district leader) in the course of which I, in my capacity of confidential agent of the sub-Regional Headquaters of the Security Service Dresden, had given the Security service reports which through no fault of mine had come to the knowledge of the district leader."
Does that now show, Dr. Haensch, that this report of yours was made for the simple reason that you were the confidence agent of the SD? text, it cannot mean that . The life history was made a year and 3 months later, 1937, and at the request of the SS personnal office who wanted me to write a life history. As I can see, I wrote very briefly everything concerning the dispute in Doebeln, according to the truth. Of couese, I said that this report, was added to later on. It might have come into the hands of the kreisleiter that I made these reports; how else should I express it, as a trustee of the SD. As a confidential man of the SD, I did not know that at the time, I did it for the SS, but of course, I realized that the department to whom the report want was the SD. Therefore, it is quite right if a year and three months later I wrote it in order to explain what the situation was, I made these reports in my capacity as confidential man for the SD. the report the confidential agent of the SD, is that correct? man of the SD at the moment? I could not regard myself to be a confidential man of the SD but of the SS, but I heard afterwards that the department to whom this report was sent was the SD. In fact, it was like this, that this confidential report, which this is, I wrote as a confidential man of the SD. right?
A Yes. It does not say anything incorrect.
Q You have testified here, Dr. Haensch, that before you came or before you started your activities of Sonderkommando 4B you were instructed about your duties by Heydrich, by Mueller, the Chief of the Gestapo in the RSHA, by Thomas, the commander of Einsatzgruppe C, is that correct?
A Yes. That is not quite right. I was not introduced by Mueller in any way, and as I said, Heydrich simply bade me goodbye, and I said, as far as I can remember, what Heydrich said to me at the time. to your predecessor Braune, and to the commanders of the sub-commandos, is that correct?
A I talked to Braune, as far as I remember; a few days passed before I talked to the leaders of the subcammandos--before I could have talked to them -- I don't know exactly.
Q You spoke to him at the time you were in command?
whom know the Hitler Order, ever mentioned this order to you. I only want to recapitulate. Haydrich was the first person, very likely, who received this order. Streckenbach and Mueller had handed down the order. Thomas and Braune and the subcommando leaders undoubtedly have carried out this order. All these people were very familiar with this order.
None of them told you a word about it. Can you explain to the Tribunal how that could have happened?
and on the basis of all I have heard during the proceedings here, and I can assure the Tribunal that I thought about it seriously how this might have been cnnected. If I give an explanation now, it is an explanation I can give because I know about all the facts which have come in here. In my opinion things which had already been passed were discussed in the commando.
Q May I interrupte you for a minute? You said, "things which were in the past". We have reports here to which we shall come later. It is stated 6 of March, which shows between the first and sixth of March 1942, it is exactly ten days you came to Sonderkommando 4B, 1224 Jews were killed in Artenowsk, and that by this action Artenowsk was freed of Jews, that you cannot r member whether it is very much in the past, Dr. Haensch, this Fuchrerorder was not executed by your commando, Just exactly ton days before you came to be commander of Sonderkommando 4b? the Tribunal that at the very earliest I arrived on 15 March.
Q That is what you said? assume to have been event mentioned in the document should have occured shortly before. Perhaps, I may draw your attention to what I said yesterday. It is not true that this report appeared for the first time on 6 March. The same report is already contained in a report of events 27 February.
Q I think that you are mistaken. This is a report which covers a period between the first and the last of March, Dr. Haensch, and therefore it is absolutely clear that these killings were carried out between the first and the sixth of March.
I will show that to you. I wanted to show it to you later. The document is in Document Book IIIA.
This is Document 3876-PS. It is on page 42 of the English, Your Honors, and I don't know just now which page it is in the German.
It was page 57 of the German. There you came to Sonderkommando 4B. According to your own contention you have been there the 15th.
It was therefore that it did not appear like this.
Only it seems quite impossible to me, and I will prove this, but I don't understand one thing concerning this document.
This is the Situation Report of events No. 9 of the 27th of February.
were referring is by no means the report No. 9. It is the Report No. 11.
A No, that is the strange thing about it. I wanted In the Situation and Operation report No. 11 of the 23rd shooting of the Jews on the 23 of April, 1942.
Dr. Hochwald, I don't quite understand your explanation here.
I have read with my own eyes and perhaps Dr. Riediger will submit the a Situation Report, or Report of Events No. 9 of 27 February, Activity and Situation Report NO.
9. The document which you now submit to me is the Activity and Situation Report No. 9. That is, it is a copy on a -- on a -
Q You are mistaken. You will note it is No. 11. It shows that the period covered -
A No. 9.
Q I know it is No. 11. I can't help this. I can read.
A It states there No. 9. document, the report you have been referring to is the Report No. 11 and this report covers the period from the first to the last of March and in this report the killing of the 1,224 Jews in Artenowsk is listed, so if you -which you refer, No. 11 of the 23rd of April , 1942. The copy which I have in front of me here shows that time of report of 1 March until 31 March 1942, but what you mentioned to me before that -- what you named to me, is not the Situation and Activity Report No. 11, but a Situation and Activity Report No. 9, which you have opened in the book here and this Situation and Activity Report No. 9 is dated 27 February, 1942. I have seen that with my own eyes. The date is missing here. No date is anywhere, but it is neither the report 1 March -
DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If Your Honors please, the witness, if I may say so, is a little bit confused. This Document 3876-PS, to which I referred, contains two reports, but the report about the killing of the 1,1224 Jews, which is also a part of Document 3876, and I have given the witness the page number. I think it is absolutely clear.
Q (By Dr. Horlick-Hochwald) Let us, without going into the document then, let us assume for a minute, Dr. Haensch, that what I have stated is correct, that these 1,224 people were killed just about ten or fourteen days before you came in and would it not be very strange that you have found no information, no trace, no oral statement, from one of your officers, no report from the officer who was in charge of Office 4 what had happened a few days before you came in?
to me, but there is one thing I would like to draw your attention to first of all and I shall explain this to you further in a minute; it is quite impossible in my opinion that this event should have happened so shortly before it was reported -
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Witness, please, please. I think the question has been answered. Mr. Hochwald put to you what was in the nature of a hypothetical question. "Let us suppose that 14 days before your arrival, this number of Jews had been killed. If that were true, it would be strange, wouldn't it, that there wouldn't be some talk about it?" And you answered it. "Yes, that would have been strange." That is the question and that's the answer.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Thank you very much, Your Honor, may I ask the next question?
THE WITNESS: Dr. Hochwald wanted -- well, I wanted to add something. In that case I won't do it.
THE PRESIDENT: No, you can add it, but what you are going to add there I think we know. It is your contention to deny that it did not happen. Is that what you are going to add, Yes or no.
THE WITNESS: I wanted to add that it really did not
THE PRESIDENT: All right, that's it. You have added it.
Next question, Mr. Hochwald.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Thank you very much, Your Honors.
Q (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) It is correct that when you unchanged is that right?
Thomas?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald you might develop
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I was going to ask this question
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) Will you please turn to Document Book II-A. This is page 60 of the English, Your Honors, page 64 of the German.
This is Document 3405, Prosecution Exhibit 42.
Here you are mentioned as leader of Sonderkommando 4 B the 16th of January, 1942.
If I than the 15th of March to Sonderkommando 4B, is that right?
Q Therefore, you don't take responsibility for the killings of 861 persons by Sonderkommando 4B, which took place between the 14th of January and the 12th of February.
You deny any responsibility for that, is that correct? This is Document Book I, Your Honors, page 87, Document 3340, Exhibit 22. Document Book I. facts; these events did not take place during my time and I was not in Russia any earlier than, at the earliest, the 15th of March. that out of these people which were executed, 861 persons were killed because they were Jews? correct? I don't know if that is correct.
A You asked me is that right. I cannot give you any information or that.
Q I only asked you if you know that report. The only question -
A I see the report and I know the report. I saw from the document that it is the Report of Events of 25 February. other report about the killing of 1,224 Jews in Artenowsk, about which we have just spoken. This is in Document Book II-c on page 60 of the English, 64 of the German, Document 3240 of the Prosecution, Exhibit 80. which appear three dates, 27 February, or 6 March, and then at the latest on the 23rd of April.
Q How do you explain then, Dr. Haensch, if you were advised not to change anything in the management, in the executive measures of the Sonderkommando, how then suddenly, after you arrived, the general policy of Sonderkommando 4B to carry out the Hitler Order suddenly stopped?
Will you tell that to the Tribunal?
A I did not know the Hitler Order. I was not told of it, and during my time no Jews were executed at all just because they were Jews. I repeat this one thing: Such a thing neither occurred nor was it mentioned, or was ever expressed in my presence. I now ask you to give me an opportunity to explain why I say this and what I found concerning this and how I can explain this on the basis of the documents and how this was possible. May I state very briefly, quite briefly -
THE PRESIDENT: Suppose that this explanation be given after the recess. The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The tribunal is again in session.
DR. LINK ( for the defendant Felix Ruehl): Mr. President, for the sake of order I would like to point out that I am missing my client, Felix Ruehl. He was excused yesterday afternoon. The last time I saw him was at eight o'clock last night. May I call your attention to this.
THE PRESIDENT: WELL -- he has already been reported ill, and that is the reason he is not in court today, so you need not fear that you lost your client.
DR. LINK: Thank you, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, please Mr. Hochwald.
MR. HOCHWALD: Thank you very much, your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Before the intermission we spoke of the Hitler order, and I understood your testimony to be that understood your command, Sonderkommando 4-b never executed any Jews, is that correct?
A. I testified that no Jew was ever killed just because he was a Jew. I never found out what the Hitler decree was. I think I cannot remember, and I think I may say, that this was not the case -- that among the executions necessary during my time there wasn't any Jew, because he violated the laws of war. As I said, I cannot remember. I might be possible that a Jew might have been among them, but I don't know.
Q. But people who had committed crimes, or a crime, were executed actually by Sonderkommando 4-b, is that your contention?
A. Whoever committed a crime, and his guilt was ascertained beyond doubt, such person was made to bear the consequences.
Q. How did you obtain knowledge of such executions? Were reports made by the sub-commanders to you?
A. No. This concerns two executions within the sphere of my main command, and there the decisive word was said, under my leadership. Concerning both executions -- within the sub-commandos -- it was thus, that one took care of the Artemowsk sphere, and it occurred during an inspection trip on my part in Artemowsk that the sub-commander gave me information about these incidents. The sub-commanders were independent. I merely made an inspection of the sub-commandos. And the last execution, it was ture, - it was, as I said, in connection with this purification of the Russian break-in sector of the northern front, that is to say, in May, while I was in Prague, When I returned this frontal sector was in a flowing state, and, as I was told, there was a certain degree of insecurity, and I came there without any knowledge of the executions. I arrived when the local sub-commando had completed the executions. The execution itself had been completed, and the concerned persons, as the sub-commando told me, had been handed over to the sub-commando by the Wehrmacht after examination and decision had been made by that part of the Army concerned, with the order to carry out the execution; and in a discussion at the AOK I objected to this, that is to say, I requested that these executions not be carried out. My viewpoint was understood by the AOK -
Q. Do I understand you to say that all the time that you were in command of Sonderkommando 4-b only the four executions which you described to the Tribunal, in direct examination, were carried out?
A. Yes. Immediately, through the SK 4-b, these executions took place.
As I believe I said yesterday in direct examination, there were several large military partisan actions carried out against dangerous elements.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, you needn't repeat -
MR. HOCHWALD: I only wanted to ask him whether these four executions are the only executions which were carried out during his activity with Sonderkommando 4-b.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, please keep in mind that when a question is put to you, answer it directly; and if you have already gone into the field, it isn't necessary to repeat it. Just merely answer the question, and stop there. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Yesterday you gave the numbers of people executed in these four executions. You have said that in April there were approximately 25 people executed in Gorlowka; and in the same month, between 15 to 20 in Artemowsk; and then again in Gorlowka at the end of May, six to seven; and in Barvenkova, on the order of the Army, there were approximately 10 people. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So that would mean that all the executions carried out by Sonderkommando 4-b in the time between the middle of March and the middle of June 1942, would be approximately 60 people. Is that right?
A. Yes. Approximately. I cannot say the exact figure.
Q. Those, definitely, are all the executions which were carried out under your command?
A. These were all executions which became necessary, and of which I have knowledge, which were known to me; and I have no reason to assume that immediately from the Sonderkommando 4-b other executions were carried out.
Q. Let us speak now about the two executions in Gorlowka and the one in Artemowsk. Can you tell the Tribunal how you checked -- how, and by whom, these people who were executed there, were interrogated?
A. I think I gave an exact description yesterday, However, I can repeat it.
Q. You just tell the Tribunal whether you did check, or whether you did not check.
A. Yes, I knew exactly about the individual cases -that is to say, the decision in both these executions in the Gorlowka district. I also knew about the other executions and I was able to convince myself that these were only cases which occurred in accordance with law and order, and where the people concerned were actually proven violators against the laws of war and against security of the people.
Q. The decision about people to be executed in Artemowsk rested with the sub-commander, is that correct?
A. Yes, the sub-commander was authorized -- the sub-commander commands were independent -- and not only the sub-commander in Artemowsk. It happened thus, that I handled it in this way, that I received the information.
Q. The sub-kommando leader, as a matter of fact, was subordinated to you, was he not?
A. He was subordinated to me.
Q. And in principle -
A. That is not to say that we were responsible.
Q. In principle, then, you were the person who was ultimately to decide whether someone should be executed or not -- in the area of Sonderkommando 4-b, of course?
A. That is not quite correct. I was the final instance with the main commando in Golowka; the sub-commando leaders as such decided and could make independent decisions.
The whole situation and situation and structure showed this. They also cooperated with other military units and agencies.
Q. But you told the Tribunal just now that you got information about the execution in Artemowsk.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you have been able to reverse the decisions of the sub-kommando leader if you would have been of the opinion that the execution of a certain individual was not justified?
A. Yes, without any trouble. If I had become convinced that something was not quite in order, I certainly would have been able to do that.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal how long, actually, the whole procedure -- and that means investigation, interrogation of the defendant, interrogation of witnesses, and decision of the officers, and the supreme decision by you -took, in the case of an accused? The whole procedure from the moment when a man was arrested, to the moment you made your final decision that he was to be executed or was to be set free?
A. I really can't set that down. Each case had a certain number of facts, and the facts differed. It might happen -- please, I only cite these examples from my memory I have no single case in mind -- it might happen, and it happened in most cases -- yes, in most cases this happened, where a man was found to be in possession of pieces of unauthorized weapons - something which often happened or he was caught when committing acts of sabotage on buildings, warehouses, and railroad installations... BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Would the unauthorized possession of a weapon bring about the death sentence?
A. Whoever in the combat zone was caught with a weapon in his possession was to be sentenced to death, that is how the order was, yes.
Q. How many sentences did you authorize for that violation? How many executions did you authorize for that violation?
A. Mr. President, I can't say now which, or how many, of these cases were decided for this, or that, offense -or had to be shot for these offenses. That is why I emphasized before that I was only reconstructing these cases -- I know that in general it was that in Wehrmacht units over and over again it was pointed out, and it was discussed, with the reinforcement and the equipment of partisans, and the sabotage of civilians -
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't necessary to tell us that; I only asked you how many executions were ordered by you because the executees had been proven to have carried unauthorized weapons, and you answered you don't know. Stop. Next question. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. How many officers did you have in you unit?
A. I estimate, from my memory -- together with subkommando leaders, eight to ten. I may be mistaken, though. Eight to ten.
Q. That would be more than 10% of the complete strength, would it not?
A. Yes. I can tell you these sub-kommands -- there were one, two, three and then four -- four sub-kommands. There were four officers. Then there was a communication officer in the main command. There were five. The head of the executive department, that makes six. The interpreter in the main command, to my recollection also an officer.
Furthermore, one or two officers, I don't exactly remember -which were also in the command with orders concerning this enterprise Zeppelin. that is, they had this task Zeppelin, but it was not carried out. It was in the Army sphere.
Q. May I interrupt you, witness. The question was only -- How many officers did you have in you unit. Eight to ten.
A. Eight or ten. Perhaps up to ten. That is correct.
Q. Were investigations carried out by all of these officers?
A. I have already testified that the proceedings were as follows -
THE PRESIDENT: Stop.
Q. (By Mr. Hochwald) It would be much easier if you would say so and so many officers carried out investigations and executions. Nothing else was asked of you. You have already explained how it was. I did not ask you about the way it was carried out. I only want to know how many officers took part in these interrogations.
THE PRESIDENT: Put your question very specifically, now. Now, what is your question?
MR. HOCHWALD: The original question was -
THE PRESIDENT: Put your question now, BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Were investigations carried out by all officers of your unit?
THE PRESIDENT: Answer that.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. The next question. That is enough now. The next question. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. The Army passed the sentence. For instance, in the execution in Barvenkova, did you get any written findings on the part of the army authorities why these people actually were condemned to death?
A. No, just this was the reason why I went to the Army, to the high command. This sub-command had a local leader, a responsible local leader to carry out the orders of the Army unit. They had to carry out the orders for the execution. It may also be that the order came through from a superior office of the local unit.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, if you received no written account of the offenses, how did you review the evidence in order to determine whether the death penalty was justified?
THE Witness: Mr. President, I think there is a misunderstanding. I said that I was able to get the information, and to ascertain at the execution which took place in my sphere of the main command, which were at Artemowsk and at Barbenkova.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, Mr. Hochwald asked you if, when you were ordered by the Army to conduct an execution, you received at the same time a written record of the offense, and you said, no, is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. Now, he asked you if you didn't receive a written record outlining the offense committed by the person, that you were now to execute, how did you know what was his offense, and how could you review the evidence to determine whether it justified an execution?
A. Mr. President, the facts of the penalty for the crime committed by them were named to the sub-commander by the military person ordered to carry it out.
Q. Then you personally didn't review the facts, but the Army conveyed the information orally to the sub-commander leader, and the execution occurred?
A. Yes, in this case it happened. This was the occasion why I went to the Army High Command.
Q. Witness, Mr. Hochwald asked you about sixty executions which you testified to. You remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. There were sixty people killed under your orders?
A. Yes.
Q. Allright. Four separate executions, and sixty people in all, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now in each one of these instances, were you satisfied that the person to be executed had committed an offense which justified execution?
A. Yes, Mr. President, but -
Q. Very well. You have answered that. We will give you an opportunity to explain. Did you give the final order for the execution of these sixty?
A. No, not in all these cases, but I gave the order in twentyfive cases of the executions in my main command in Gerlowka, and, at the second execution it took place at the end of May, or at the beginning of June, at the main command in Gerlowka, and this concerned a group of six or seven persons....
Q. No, do not give us the number. There were sixty executed under your orders.