How many of these did you know about yourself? Sixty were executed because you gave the orders for them to be killed, that you have testified to several times. Now, how many of these sixty did you investigate yourself, or reviewed the evidence on?
A. The evidence? I only looked through the evidence and made a final decision for about twenty-five case, and seven that -
Q. All right.
A. (Continuing) came there after.
Q. That is thirty-two that you investigated yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. So that means that twenty-eight went to their deaths under your orders without your having reviewed the evidence?
A. No, Mr. President.
Q. Sixty were killed under your orders?
A. Yes, Mr. President.
Q. Thirty-two you investigated?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the difference between sixty and thirty-two? What is the difference between sixty and thirty-two?
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't hear that, the switch was not on.
THE WITNESS: The executions in the Artimowsk district must be added. These were the executions where the investigation was not conducted by the main command.
Q. Now, don't let us get away from the question. You say sixty were killed by your orders. Thirty-two you investigated, that leaves twenty-eight. Why did you allow these twenty-eight to go to their deaths without reviewing the evidence?
A. Apart from the ten cases, the last execution at Barvenkova, I was informed of these cased in Artimowsk, that is to say, I personally informed myself of these cased a couple of days before the execution took place.
Q. Then you investigated the whole sixty?
A. Yes, apart from the group of ten persons which were executed in Barvenkova.
Q. Well of each of the sixty cases which Mr. Hochwald mentioned, you yourself were satisfied that they committed and offense which merited death?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, all right.
A. (Continuing) -- concerning the reports I had to assume about some things on the basis of the reports submitted to no by the sub-commander.
Q. very well.
A. I had to, because I had to depend on what the military persons authorized to execute the orders.
Q. Very well. Now we come back to the question which Mr. Hochwald put to you a long time ago. When the Army sent through a request, or an order that certain persons be killed, because they had committed certain offenses, Mr. Hochwald asked you, if a written order, or a written report of the offense was sent along. You said, no. Then the question was, how could you then determine whether these deaths were justified if you didn't have the written record. Now please answer that question and them lot us proceed to something also?
A. Mr. President, these cases of executions which I was question on in Barvenkova became known to me when by accident I happened to the place, and the corresponding report about the respective orders of the Army units were given to no for information today. I cannot state exactly, from memory or with certainty, that the sub-commander received this order from the military officer, who had the right to give this order, and he was also told the crime itself which had been committed by the defendants. I considered this type of handling not correct, and I expressed my opinion to this effect at the AOK, namely, that in my opinion the Army when it conducted the investigation and made the decision itself should carry out the execution by its own commandos.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Mr. Hochwald, proceed, BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. How many executions did you watch yourself, Dr. Haensch?
A. Three executions were watched by myself and inspected. The fourth at Barvenkova, which is the one where I happened to be when the execution itself had been completed and carried out, but I was a witness to the fact that its took place.
Q. You did attend this execution in order to check with the directive as to the way how these executions were to be carried out, or actually complied with, is that correct?
A. I was not there during the whole time in every case, but I considered it my duty to make sure for myself that the executions were carried out in accordance with official instructions, that is to say, under observance of regulations that every thing must be done accordingly...
Q. So you actually watched three of the four executions which were carried out in your time, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please turn to document Book III-C, Your Honor, that is, I want to refer to page 42 of the Document Book III-C, page 72 of the German. This is again the affidavit of the defendant and I quote from the bottom of the page, where he said: "I myself watched a few executions where possible. This was done in that manner so as to surprise the execution command with my sudden appearance," and, on the next page, in the middle of the next page, second paragraph, under the heading - - page 19 of the original, you said: "I myself watched three or four executions." Is it not apparent from the wording of this affidavit of yours, that much more executions than the three or four that you have been referring to must have been carried out according to your own statement?
A. I don't know how you - -
Q. I asked you - -
A. (Continuing) - - mean that.
Q. I asked you and you can say so; I just asked you your opinion whether you would not have had the feeling if you read the two passages, that you just made a check on the three or four executions in order to find out whether your orders were complied with, as to the way how these executions should be carried out, and, further, as a matter of fact, there were much more executions in that area than these three or four that you actually had seen?
A. I think this passage must be considered in connection with the whole.
Q. Was this your opinion that from your recollection only four executions were carried out in your time, is that right?
A. There was a special Sendercommando-IV-B. I already said I knew of no other which took place, or might have taken place.
Q. You had been twice absent during the time between the middle of March and the middle of June, 1942, when you were commander; you were twice absent from your commando, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. One was in April about fourteen days?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes, I was absent, either....
A. How long were you away in May?
A. I was absent in May for about, I believe, that was at least three weeks.
Q. And are you sure -
A. Yes, three weeks.
Q. Are you sure, as you said yesterday that you returned to your command between the 20th and 25th of May?
A. Yes I reckon so, that must have been around this time.
Q. So it can be assumed that you left Gerlowka in the first week of May, is that right?
A. Yes, to my recollection, if not, in the last days of April.
Q. In March - - from 15th of March to the first of April, you remembered having been with your commando?
A. Yes, to my recollection I must have been there.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal when you appointed your deputy for the time or your absence?
A. That was automatic: It was the head of the executive department.
Q. Who was this officer?
A. It was an assessor by the name of Trieberg or Triebelt, who was substituted by another, namely, a Hauptsturmfuehrer, who was also a lawyer.
Q. I want to know the name now, do you understand? You didn't say the name?
A. Hussinger.
Q. What was the rank of the first deputy, I didn't catch the name?
A. To my recollection it was Obersturmfuehrer or Hautsturmfuehrer.
Q. What kind of orders in respect to executions did you give to these two deputies of yours during the time of your absence?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't give them any orders concerning the manner of execution, or any such thing. I would not know in what mannor or shape I should have given such orders. It is quite obvious that in a frontal sector immediately behind the lines, no one can know what can happen next, as it actually happened during my absence.
Q. I shall ask you the question again, in the orders you gave these people - - I'll ask you specifically what kind of orders in respect to executions did you give to the people. I may be possibly a little bit more specific. You have told the Tribunal you were the person who had to decide upon whether a person should be executed or not. Did you tell these deputies when you left; "you have this decision in My absence," or, did you tell then "The cases had to be deferred until I returned, as I want myself--"?
A. No, no.
Q. - - (continuing) "To know whether these people are guilty or not."?
A. No.
Q. That is the question.
A. No. I had orders, express orders, in every case in my absence that my authority would go to the head the executive department, and, in both cases when I went to Kiev the following happened: I received orders to make the official trip, but I had to return - -
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Just a moment, witness, just a moment. Don't give that long story about you receiving your orders. If you want to tell us something which happened while you were away, now tell us in twenty-five words, as to what happened, what happened while you were in Kiev, if you are so anxious to tell us about that, allright.
THE WITNESS: Mr. President, I only wanted to tell of the fact that I had to return. I inquired in Kiev as I could not come in time for the discussion which was to take place there, and I considered it suitable to stay with the command. But I was told to come in any case--
THE PRESIDENT: Now, you -
THE WITNESS: (Continuing) and both deputies were entrusted with these matters. I want to emphasize this again.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, it is emphasized. Proceed. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Did you get any reports from your deputies when you returned from your two journeys? Did they tell you what they had been doing in your absence?
A. Yes. I remember the incident in.....
Q. Now may I interrupt you again. I didn't ask whether they reported to you, or whether they told you what ahppened. Can you say first you or no to that question?
A. Naturally, of course.
Q. By next question. Did they report to you about any executions which were carried out in your absence?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes or no?
THE WITNESS: I was told - -
THE PRESIDENT: Please answer the question. Did they report any executions to you. Now answer that, yes or no?
THE WITNESS: No. executions were reported to me by SE-IV-B. just want to say something - -
THE PRESIDENT: Now, witness. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal exactly in which area your Sendercommando operated?
A. The frontal sector of the 17th Army, Which ended in the south on the border of Gerlowka. Gerlowka to my recollection is at most twenty kilometers north of Staline. May I Point it cut to you?
Q. First, may I ask you for the information of the Tribunal at the same time another question.
A. (The witness goes over to the map located on the wall and talks)
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. All right. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: The northern part ended and the frontal sector at the time of my service on the border of Kramatorskaya. Unfortunately I have no exact map but to my recollection, but it must have been there near Gerlowka. I reckon it was about 120 kilometers distant. It might have been 150 kilometers.. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Is it correct that Shitomir, Rovno and Vinis belonged to this area where Sonderkommando IV-B operated?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have already been asked during my interrogation about the cities of Rovno the Vinis. I never visited them, asked the cities never belonged within this sphere of Sonderkommando IVOB. May I ask you, Mr. Prosecutor, whether I may show you on the map where these cities are located.
THE PRESIDENT: You have indicated that these cities did no come within the area in which your Sonderkommando operated?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that will be enough on it, thank you. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Will you turn to Document Book II-D, where I am referring to page 4 of the Document Book, I don't know for the moment just where the quote is in the German text, but in the English it started at page 1 of the Document Book. There it is said that Sonderkommando IV-B under you had operated and had location at Kramatorskaya, in units at Shitomir, Rovno and Vinnis. (continued with question)
Q. There it says that Sonderkommando 4b under you operated in the location of Kramatorskaya with units of Zhitomir, Rowno and Vinis, and the lines of communication Gorlovka? Is this entry in the report --which is in the report of 8 April at the time when you were in command, April 1942....
A. Yes.
Q. At the time when you were in command of Sonderkommando 4b. Is this entry incorrect?
A. Yes, that is correct, but the entry is false. The command-
Q. All right, you said it is incorrect. I do think that answers the question. Were you in Garlovka. Dr. Haensch. at the end of April and beginning of May? Try to remember.
A. As much, as exactly as I could, I endeavored to find out about it. As I said, it was either the end of April or the beginning of May that I left for Kiev the Prague.
Q. Do you think in late April or beginning of May a large-scale action against partisans and communication was carried out by your commando in the area of Gorlovka?
A. Yes, I testified to that yesterday in the direct examination It is correct that at the end of April and in the course during May, as I was told later on when I returned, that large partisan actions took place which were ordered by the Army and carried out by the Army and that officials of the SK-4b were requested to go along and took part in this action.
Q. Who took part in this action?
A. I can't say that. I really don't know that any more. With this action and executions, the commando and especially the commando leader had no decision and no investigation. This was a request for personnel, officials etc., for a purely military operation which was carried out by the Army.
Q. It is true or is it not true that members of a unit under
Q. Is it true or is it not true that members of a unit under your command took part in this action?
A. I already said that officials were requested.
Q. They were people actually under your command, or were they not?
A. Yes, they were otherwise part of my commando or my subcommando. For the duration of this action my commando powers expired and the officials concerned were under orders of the military units.
Q. Did you receive a report?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, the work is coming through "officials". Interpreter, is that the word? MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Yes, it is the correct word. He said there "officials".
THE PRESIDENT: "officials" I see. Very well, thank you. port to you about this action?
A. Certainly afterwards the corresponding reports were made to the responsible superior or whoever it was, the officials or senior leader. whoever participated, who went along with these officials, certainly they made reports afterwards.
Q. To you was this report made? You was this report made? You have received this report?
A. Pardon?
Q. You have received a report from the senior officer, the question was.
A. I was orally informed about it afterwards.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal from your own recollection, as you have received a report, some details about this question?
A. No, I really can't do that because it was thus, and I believe it was the same with other commands, that these military actions of a large nature and type which became necessary were carried out outside the jurisdiction of the command.
Certainly they were interested in the -
Q. All right. Then you say you can't say anything in detail any more in spite of the fact that you have received a report. I would like to refresh your memory on this point, and I want to offer Document No-5187 as Prosecution's Exhibit, I do think it is 184.
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: 185.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: 185. I beg the Tribunal's pardon. It is Exhibit 185 which is a report from the occupied Eastern Terrtory dated 5 June 1942. On Page 5 of this document, Your Honor will find Sonderkommando 4b. On Page 5 the Tribunal will find sonderkommando 4b listed under the command of the defendant, location, Gorlovka.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) Will you turn now to Page 7. It says under the heading, "Page 4 of the original" - it is on the bottom of the page, Page 10 of the German.
A. Yes.
Q. "Several large-scale actions against partisans and Communists were carried out in the district of the Gorlovka Command in late April or early May 1942. 727 out of 1,038 persons arrested were given special treatment. Among them there were 461 partisans; members of destruction battalions, saboteurs, looters and some Communist activists and NKVD agents." Do you remember now anything about this action?
A. It says here -
Q. No, I don't want explaining what it said here. I asked you what you remember. Do you personally remember about this action?
A. I cannot remember individual figures.
Q. All right.
A. Apparently this concerns large-scale actions which took place at this time in frontal sector.
It says here: "in the commando district Gorlovka"
THE PRESIDENT: Please answer the attorney's question.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) I did not ask you that. I asked you only whether you remember now anything about this action?
A. No, I only still know from memory that about this time saboteurs and bandits became especially strong, and that was apparently connected with the pressure by the Russians exerted from their breaking point in the north, since one knew since long ago that this individual point had to be cleared.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you either remember this action or you do not. Mr. Hochwald asked you if you remembered this action. Now, please answer that once again. You answered it directly once, and t then you waiver. Now tell us specifically whether--
THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, I couldn't get that.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, let's start over again. Mr. Hochwald asked you, after making it very clear just what he was talking about, whether you remember this action. Now, please answer that yes or no, then you can go into the details, but do you remember this action which appears?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but not details.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, you do remember the action?
THE WITNESS: I remember the fact that large-scale actions took place at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now, proceed, Mr. Hochwald.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald): Can you tell the Tribunal how many out of the 727 people who were executed were Communist activists and NKVD agents?
Mr. HORLICK HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I have only a very few more questions, but it will take very likely about five or ten minutes longer than the usual sitting time of the Tribunal.
May I be permitted to take a little bit longer?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald): Then will you tell the Tribunal your commando or subkommandos of Sonderkommando 4b ever executed hostages?
A. No, I know of no shootings of hostages, and I am convinced that the Army and Wehrmacht never did any such thing.
Q. Did you command or the subcommando?
A. No, never.
Q. You have already said that your commando in the time when you were in charge never shot any Jews in great numbers, is that cor rect?
A. Yes, and I especially said that Jews were never executed just because they were Jews, It just couldn't be possible.
Q. Can you remember an incident where insanes were shot by your Sonderkommando?
A. No, never, and I may add to this that I heard of these matters for the first time from documents which I read here. I never knew that such things happened.
Q. Such executions of hostages, Jews and eventually of insanes, of course could not have been carried out at the time when you were in charge of the command without your knowledge and approval, is that correct?
A. Yes. I consider that impossible, completely impossible, that such a thing could have happened without my knowledge, and I may say to the Tribunal by explaining the following--
THE PRESIDENT: You have answered. The next question.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) I would like to hand you situation Report NO. 188.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, if you are going to refer to another document, I am afraid it might take longer than what you indicated.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: I definitely do not think so, Your Honors. These are two very short documents which I want to put in, but if the Tribunal pleases, of course I can defer my questioning until tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: We will be glad to remain another five minutes, only because of an appointment which has been made. Otherwise it wouldn't matter if you stayed another hour, but five minutes will be entirely in accordance with our plans.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: I do think I can have it finished in five minutes, Your Honor.
Mr. PRESIDENT: I am glad you have such faith in the witness.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick Hochwald) Take a look into situation Report No. 188 which is Document No. No-5941. This is only offered to show the location of the Sonderkommando 4b on the 1st of April, and I would like Your Honors to note that at that time the location was again Zhitomir. Do you recall, Dr. Haensch, that between the 28th and 31st of March when you admit you were with Sonderkommando 4b approximately 440 persons were specially treated, that is killed, is it not, by sonderkommando 4b in Zhitomir?
A. No.
Q. You said no?
A. Sonderkommando 4b had nothing to do with Rowno and Zhitomir. It is impossible in point of space. Rowno and Zhitomir are by direct distance at least seven hundred kilometers behind Gorlovka, behind the front. Furthermore -
Q. So it si contention that this report No. 188 of the 1st of April, 1942, is incorrect?
A. It is wrong to the extent --- It also says here Vinis, whereas in other reports it says Vinnitsa. I also want to make an explanation to the effect that kommando SD 4b on 19 December, according to the report of 19 December was in the Artemowsk district in Kramatorskaya, it was stationed there. According to situation Report of the 19 December 1941 in Artemowsk, these executions of Jews took place and afterwards by the 5th or 6th of January.---
THE PRESIDENT: Just---
A. (Continuing) in Rowno or Zhitomir was never indicated. It is impossible, therefore, that suddenly a front kommando, a subkommando, was moved seven hundred kilometers.
THE PRESIDENT: You see, this is in the nature of argument, Witness, and you want to leave something for Dr. Riediger to do. That is his forte, to argue the case.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: and to introduce Document No-3238. As these two documents,NO-5941 and 3238 belong together, as the first report gives only the location without which the whole second report would not be understandable,I would suggest they be given Prosecution No. 186-A and 186-B.
THE PRESENT: Very well.
Mr. HORLICK HOCHWALD: On the first page of this report it is stated that the location and communications as reported in Situation Report NO. 188, which I have just handed to the Tribunal, remain unchanged, and now I would like to quote from the excerpt which we have made from the document.
"Einsatzgruppe C:
Location, Kiev:
- - - - - - - unknown vandals desecrated the soldier's cemetary in Gayssen, "Shitomir.
50 hostages from Gayssen and vicinity were "From 26 March up to and inclusive 31 March a total of 434 persons were subjected to 'special measures'.Q. (By Mr. Horlick Hochwald) Does that mean killed, Herr Haensch, 'special measures'?
THE WITNESS: The witness says executed.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness say executed.
A. The terms of this report this probable means killed.
Q. "The figure breaks down as follows: 33 political officials; 48 saboteurs and plunderers; 352 Jews, and 1 insane." Do you want to change your statement that Sonderkommando 4b under your command never shot any Jews?
A. No, I do not want to change my testimony, Sonderkommando 4b had nothing to do with Zhitomir and Rowno during my time, and at this time there was a Dr. Ratzeberger in charge of the SD in Zhitomir and was stationed there with a corresponding command of the SD, as is apparent from the situation report of the 27th of March, Docu ment 3236. This report gives the compilation of location, Zhitomir, and commander Dr. Ratzeberger, and in Rowno, Dr. Puetz. The grotesque thing about this is that it was said again that SK 4b, and 4b is listed in Rowno and Zhitomir. I can't explain this, and I do not remember it, that when these offices were set up, that when the commandos were set up in Zhitomir and Rowno, that the order was given perhaps by the Einsatzgruppe, that men would have to be appointed for their experience in the East.
Q. I ask the Tribunal's pardon. It is only one very short question. Was this unit a part of Einsatzgruppe C?
A. Yes.
MR. HORLICK HOSHWALD: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine thirty.
( The Tribunal adjourned until 4 December 1947, at 0930 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
PRESIDENT: The Tribunal desires to make an announcement. There will be no session of the Tribunal tomorrow, Friday, so that when we adjourn this evening we will be in adjournment until next Monday morning. Proceed, Dr. Reidiger.
DR. RIEDIGIR: Your Honor, first of all, I would like to have an explanation by the prosecution. I would like to point out the following: Yesterday, the prosecution introduced Document No. 3238. In ;the excerpt of the copy of this document there are only two paragraphs. one is "in Shitomir" and so forth as part of the investigation, "50 hostages", first, "these were arrested," "half of them were shot". The next paragraph I quote, "In the time from 28 March until -- inclusive of 31 March, altogether 434 persons were given special treatment". In the photostatic copy of the original there are several paragraphs before these two paragraphs. In the previous paragraphs several other places are named, so that the second paragraph in the copy does ot only refer to Shitomir but also to the proceding paragraphs, and I am interested to show that the prosecution will clarify that the paragraph which mentions that all the 434 persons were given special treatment refers only to Shitomir and, therefore, wants to charge the witness with this or whether the context clearly shows that this paragraph refers to all the localities which could never have had anything to do with SK 4B.
PRESIDENT: Well, what you would like to do then is to introduce the entire document?
DR. REIDIGIR: Yes.
PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr. Hochwald.
MR. Hochwald: If the Tribunal please, the entire document is in evidence.
We have only made a part translation, but we have put the whole document into evidence.
So Dr. Riediger, of course,
PRESIDENT: Where is it?
MR. HOCHWALD: It is in the keeping of the General Secretary.
As far as I know. the General Secretary left the photostatic copy which is the exhibit to Dr. Reidiger over last night so that Dr.
PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Riediger, you may take from the document
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes, but I would like to har from the prosecution the charges of the defendant.
In my opinion the defendant has to
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Trubunal please, this document was intro not.
The only argument which we have to make is the argument that the document has probative value.
This fact is not denied by the defense.
I do not think that there is another argument from the part of the prosecution necessary at this time.
We will argue the
PRESIDENT: Have you introduced the whole document?
MR. HOCHWALD: We have introduced the whole document. It is the ruling of the Tribunal that the document is always introduced in its entirety.
What is before the court is only a partial translation but the document is introduced in its entirety.
PRESIDENT: Very well. Dr. Riediger, you can comment on this to any degree you desire in your closing argument. It isn't necessary that the matter be argued now. The prosecution has introduced the entire document. He h s translated a part so that he could examine the witness on it. The witness was cross examined on the part which Mr. Hochwald introduced, so there is nothing further to be done now. You have the document and you may quote as much of it as you desire in your document book.
MR. HOCHWALD: I only want to add, Your Honors, that these two documents which I introduced are among the situation reports which were at the disposal of the trial on. As Your Honors know, we have photostatic copies made of all these reports, whether we have them introduced into evidence or not, and these two documents were from the beginning of the tiral at the disposal of the defense, so the defense knows or could have known these documents.
PRESIDENT: Well, I think the matter is cleared up now, Dr. Riediger. All right, anything further on it, Dr. Riediger?
DR. RIEDIGER: No, thank you.
PRESIDENT: Do you have any redirect of your witness--any redirect examination of your witness, or are you finished with him?
DR. RIEDIGER: No. If I may, I have two more question to ask the witness. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q Dr. Haensch, you said yesterday that Shitomir did not belong to your commando district, in particular, as this would be impossible from the point of view of distance. You stated that Shitomir was about 700 kilometers away from your commando?