Rowno, not only did not belong to the commando area of SK 4B, so that the commando had nothing at all to do with Shitomir or Rowno, nothing even concerning personnel or anything else. Sonderkommando or Einsatzkommando--what could they have done in an area where civil administration existed? Apart from that, the figure "700 kilometers" I gave as an approximate. I have no map. And I merely mentioned this because I remember this approximately, that the distance by air to Kiev was 550 or 600 kilometers. I don't lmpw mpw jpw far tje ptjer 1/2;aces are away from Kiev, but during the discussion I heard when leaving last night that this is not quite right, 700 kilometers, but that it is 1,500 kilometers rather, the distance between those two cities from the area where the SK 4B was during my time.
Court Nol II, Case NO. IX.
Q. Dr. Haensch, how do you explain the circumstance that in the report of events of 27 March 1942, Document Book IIIA, page 92, No. 3236, and also in later ones, Shitomir, a special commander for the security police and the SD is named?
A. How shall I explain this. The fact is proven by the fact that during that time permanent officers of the German police were in the area of the civilian administration and, therefore, as I said yesterday, from that point of view it does not make sense that there should have been another police unit or another Einsatzkommando there.
Q. On the other hand, in reports of events which preceded this one, -- Your Honor, I shall bring this in detail in another document book, -- I would only like to start this question. On the other hand, in previous situation reports it is mentioned that parts of SK 4B were in Shitomir, Winniza, and Rowna, in the report of events of 12 January '42.
A. That is incorrect that it is always mentioned that parts were there, but it suddenly appears, this report of events, I believe, during the middle of January, and then suddenly they stop in between. I think I remember there is another report where this is not mentioned, and explanation.
Q. Do you consider the contents of the situation reports incorrect in so far?
A. Yes. I must consider them to be incorrect. SK 4B did not have any parts there, or had anything to do with these locations.
Q. Dr. Haensch, I would like to refer to the other document which was submitted yesterday. It is the report from the East of 5 June '42. This report also contains in it "Commmando Region Gorlovka". I quote: "At the end of April, beginning of May 1942, several large actions were carried out against partisans and communists. From 1,038 arrested persons, 727 received special treatment. Among them were 431 partisan, members of destruction battalions, saboteurs, plunderers, and also a few communist activists and NKVD agents". According to this, these events are supposed to have happened at the end of April, beginning of May 1942.
Did you hear anything about this, and to what extant did this action take place?
A. I already explained yesterday that at the en -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Riediger, the witness' first words already indicate the lact of necessity to go into this again. He says, "As I already explained yesterday". Now, if he has already explained, it is unnecessary for him to repeat his explanation. If you find there is something which he should state in addition to what he stated yesterday, some angle which he did not touch upon, then direct his attention precisely to that angle, but don't have him repeat the explanation he gave us yesterday.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, I do not intend to have the witness repeat his statements.
THE PRESIDENT: But you see how he started out, didn't you?
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes-- only I believe this was not quite clear yesterday when the witness explained it yesterday, and that is the reason ....
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is saying, "As I explained yesterday". Now, we don't want him to tell us what he explained yesterday. Let him tell what there is to state additionally to that. Call his attention to that. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q. Were those measures which were carried out by SK 4B itself?
A. These investigation or decisive measures which were carried out had nothing to do with SK 4B, but here there were large anti-partisan activities. I don't know any more now how many there were, but I know that such anti-partisan operations took place about that time, carried out by the special unit of the army assigned to this.
And I know that in individual cases, I don't know whether on one occasion or on two occasions. I don't know how many there were there, individual officials from the commando or subcommando were asked to support the secret field police.
Q. Were you present with SK 4B while these actions were carried out?
A. No. This was during the time when I was on my journey. I only know that shortly before either I knew that these actions were going to be carried out, but I don't know any more whether already then the request had been made to the commando to detail officials. I don't know that any more. I don't know whether I heard this afterwards in reports.
DR. RIEDIGER: I have no further questions to ask the witness, but I have another request. Yesterday the prosecution submitted two documents of importance. I, therefore ask that I might be allowed some time to obtain some evidence against this.
THE PRESIDENT: The defense counsel will always have an opportunity to present any evidence which is relevant. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you leave the stand, I would like to direct your attention to your own handwritten statement prepared this summer, which contains in all 36 pages. You recall this statement, do you?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware of the fact that in this long statement which you wrote up yourself that you do not mention the word "Jew" once?
Do you recall that? Now, please answer that "Yes" or "No".
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Very well. Was this question of the Jew so utterly unknown to you that it did not occur to you in writing, this long story of your activities, to mention the Jewish problem once?
A. Your Honor, this statement was made by me in order to correct and clarify questions which had been asked in previous interrogations. On the question of executions of Jews, merely because they were Jews, I was never questioned. The fact was brought to me for the first time not in the form of a question but in the form of a fact, that the fuehrerorder existed, after this affidavit which I made. I only commented on those question which were mentioned to me at the time.
Q. Very well. Now, on page 69 of your original, you relate a conversation with Heydrich, and you stated, "I recall that Heydrich impressed upon me always to keep before my eyes the cruelty of the Bolchevists". Heydrich said nothing about the Jews being Bolchevists? I ask you whether he did or not.
A. He did not say the word "Jew"
Q. He did not mention "Jews" at all in the entire conversation?
A. No.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. Very well. And he asked you that you were to look after the welfare of the kommando members relating to the proper accommodations and personal needs. Do you affirm that?
A. Yes, Your Honor, he was particularly keen on this and he emphasized this particularly, also towards Streckenbach, when there was a danger of typhoid fever.
Q. And he also impressed upon you the necessity of watching over the life of each German soldier. That is on page 6 of the original. Do you affirm that?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Very well. On page 14 of original, you relate in some detail an episode when the Army had ordered the search of a village, because, according to a report, German soldiers had been shot there and some of then killed or wounded. Do you recall that episode?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. And you say that upon investigation it was determined that no one had been shot at, no one had been wounded and no one had been killed, is that right?
A. Yes, your Honor.
Q. As a matter of fact, all that had happened was that A German's rifle had been fired off accidentally?
A. Yes. There were ........
Q. Very well, so therefore in some of these reports about atrocities committed on German soldiers, there was the possibility of error, wasn't there?
A. Yes, absolutely, as this case showed, your Honor.
Q. Yes. Do you know who it was who made the incorrect report originally? Was it a German officer?
A. That was -- I don't know whether it was an officer, but I presume so, but in any case it was a report which was received by the Army from some unit, some local unit there. Whether it was transient column I don't know, or whether the local commander sent it, I don't know, and this report was then sent on to the competent men with the Army who dealt with this.
That is why I remember this incident.
Q. But one officer was reprimanded, wasn't he, because of this incorrect report?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Very well. On page 15 of your original you stated that in executions you observed no excesses on the part of the kommando members?
A. Yes.
Q. How what excesses could there be? They performed the ultimate harm that can come to a human being. They killed him. Now what do you mean by an excess? When you have an execution you have the ultimate and complete excess of snuffing out the life of the subject. Now what do you mean by an excess? What more could they do to a man beside kill him?
A. Your Honor, the killing of people which was necessary on these occasions, they were not excesses. These were persons who were proven to be guilty.
Q. Witness, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. You said in your statement, "I never, not even subsequently, observed any excesses on the part of the kommando members, even at executions."
A. Your Honor, Mr. Wartenberg, I don't quite know now -- told me things and charged me with things which upset no very much and it appeared as if he thought as if people had been tortured.
Q. Very well. I understand what you mean. What you mean is that the victims were not subjected to torture or painful treatment prior to the moment that they were actually shot.
A. Yes.
Q. Very well. Your kommando was equipped with sub-machine guns, as well as rifles, that is correct, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, your kommando had a predominance of sub-machine guns, as against rifles?
A. Your Honor I don't know for sure any more; as far as I remember, it seams to me as if the men mostly had sub-machine guns. But I can't........
Q. All right, I just wanted to check on that. You say that certificates of death were made out. Do I understand that in each case of an execution, a death certificates was written out fir each person executed.
A. Your Honor. I did not say that.
Q. Well, I read from your affidavit or your statement "And the carrying out of the executions, including the issue of the certificate of death by a medical orderly."
A. No, your Honor, I could not have said that. I would like to compare it to the original.
DR. RIEDIGER: (Attorney for the defendant Haensch): In the German text, as far as I know, the sentence is not contained. I will just have a look.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, will you please do so.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I do think it would be advisable if the Secretary-General would get the exhibit.
THE PRESIDENT: The document itself. Would you please give me the German translation now?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, he is now trying to locate it -- on page 16 of the original, the first sentence onpage 16 of the original.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it reads here as I think I said it. It says here, "Including the determination of death by the medical officer, the responsible officer, or the Party official." In the original it probably says, "by the medical officer and the competent officer, or the General officer."
Q. (By the president) What was meant then is that after the execution one of your men, a medical orderly, or otherwise, made certain that the subject was actually dead. Is that what you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Not that an official death certificate was written out?
A. No.
Q. All right; still talking about executions, you say, "I do not recall either ever having heard a cry of pain."
A. Your Honor, I only wrote this into my affidavit, because of the charges made against me. I cannot remember during these events which I witnessed and which, as I can only repeat, of course, moved me very deeply, ever having heard a cry of pain. I must even say, I have never seen a movement or a sign, from these people. I never saw as far as I remember, any sign of emotion. That is what I am trying to explain.
Q. You mean that of these 60 whom you actually saw killed, not in one instance was there ever a cry of protest or of self-pity or of any indication that great sorrow was upon then because of what was about to happen?
A. Your Honor, no, as I said, I never heard a cry of pain or anything like that ever.
Q. On page 21, you say, "In this connection I must point again to the monstrous suspicion against me, that the persons to be executed were placed before a grave, shot, and their bodies thrown into it." Now what was monstrous about this? You yourself directed the execution and certainly they were shot and certainly their bodies were placed in the grave. Why do you use the phrase, "The monstrous suspicion against me."
A. Your Honor, this is in connection with my interrogations. This affidavit and I may explain this now; at my request to have an opportunity to explain, I was given this opportunity; after I had been asked to put my signature under the transcript, the contents of which did not give exactly what I had tried to express and in this transcript it was put in such a manner as if the people who were to be shot would be placed before the grave and were shot in front of the grave; and may I add here that I know for certain that this never happened and that special instructions were given from the execution Department that it had to be watched closely that the grave and the place of internment was not at the same location as the place where the persons concerned were being executed.
Q. From which department did that directive come?
A. Those were instructions which already existed, and, as far as I remember, they probably were given by the Einsatzgruppe, but it can only be like this because the Einsatzgruppe -
Q. Please answer the question. I asked you from which department did this directive come that you told us about?
A. These instructions concerning the way it was to be handled, accordind to special -
Q. Will you please answer that question. It is a very simple question. You have told us that there was a directive that the victims should not see the grave into which their bodies were to be placed. From where did these directives come?
A. From the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. From Einsatzgruppe C?
A. Einsatzgruppe C.
Q. Now, you do know, don't you, that in many, if not in most cases, the victims actually were placed right in front of the anti-tank ditch into which the bodies were to be later placed?
A. Your Honorr, I learnt this during the trial here in a few cases, or in one case in the trial here when this subject came up.
Q. Very well. All right. Let's proceed to something else. Now, how soon after your picture was taken did you leave for the East?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A Your Honor, I don't know exactly, but I can only say, as far as I remember, that would be perhaps about eight days later. Either that is what I said right at the beginning on my very first interrogation, in the last days of February, or in the first few days of March.
Q. Can you get this please? Just answer the question. Now you left about eight days after the picture was taken?
Q All right. Where were you living at the time? Where were you living at the time?
Q Where, what address?
Q Were you living there with your wife? be sent to her at another address? have my picture taken again. I myself never thought of it and never had the intention to do so; by phone I called up my parents from Berlin several times, and there my parents and my father asked me to have my picture taken, and, as far as I remember, your Honor, but I don't know for certain just now, I believe after my departure my wife travelled to my parents. your wife? giving the address of my parents' house. My wife, possibly, yes, I even believe it was so, at the time immediately afterwards visited my parents. This was connected with my mother's recovery. My wife visited my mother Court No. II, Case No. IX.
early in January and looked after her and then she helped her later on and at Neisse.
Q Where were your parents living?
Q At what number?
Q Who actually paid for the pictures, your wife or your parents?
A Your Honor, I don't know that any more now; I assume -parents were to pay or your wife was to pay?
A I don't know any more, Your Honor. Generally, I paid things myself; I presume that I might have paid, but I am not sure.
Q Who eventually got the pictures, your parents or your wife? that day?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will be returned to the defendants' dock.
Oh, you have another question?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD : Yes, if the Tribunal please, I will have two or three questions which came up during the examination. Here is the document, NO-4567, the affidavit of the witness and the witness possibly can read to the Tribunal now the sentence which was in question.
THE PRESIDENT: On page 16. Will you help him to find it, please, Mr. Hochwald. He seems to be having difficulty.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Yes, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it says page 13 here and then page 26, and the photostatic copy is done in such a manner that I cannot recognize it at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you find it, Mr. Hochwald?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD : If the Tribunal will kindly tell me -
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
that is a sentence about an orderly?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWAID: Page 16. I do think this is it, but I am not sure.
THE PRESIDENT: If it corresponds -
THE WITNESS: "Inclusive", your Honor, "Inclusive determination of death by the medical officer or by the officer, or by the trained NCO -- this was established."
THE PRESIDENT: That is what he explained, so that clears that up. BY MR. HORLICK- HOCHWALD:
Q Dr. Haensch, I have one question about your picture which was taken from you. Do you remember to whom you gave the order that the samples of these pictures should be sent to your parents? Did you give this order to the Witness Schreyer or did you give this order to somebody else? heard -- I -- probably gave the order immediately when the picture was made --it is true, at the time -- but it is possible that my wife came there later and said "I am leaving now to see my parents at Hirschfelde" and to send the pictures, but I don't know anymore. of yesterday, to Witness Schreyer, or a third person. I do not want you to tell the Tribunal what you head from the witness yesterday. I do want you to tell the Tribunal what you remember.
A Well, I can only tell you I don't know any more. I cannot remember it.
Q Another question. You have referred, when questioned by the Tribunal, you have referred to the interrogations which were carried out previous to your executing this affidavit, which is before the Tribunal and you have given the reason to the Tribunal that you never mentioned Court No. II, Case NO.
IX.
the word "Jews" in your affidavit for the simple reason that nobody asked you anything about Jews in these previous interrogations, is that correct?
A That is not correct. I did not say so, either. I said I was never asked before about the execution order and also I was not asked whether Jews were shot for being Jews only, but merely, I believe, during the first interrogation, immediately, I was shown reports which mentioned a great number of persons who were supposed to have been shot by my kommando at the time, among them Jews. Thus, merely in this connection I was told about this and charged with it. I was asked again afterwards in detail. In my affidavit I referred to those questions which had brought about misunderstandings and clarified them; that is, during the interrogations where these misunderstandings occurred, I tried to correct this with Mr. Wartenberg and Mr. Wartenberg said immediately, "Alright then, we will cross this out and then we will correct this, or make a new affidavit." a great number of Jews were executed? remember that? Did you yourself say something about the Jews in this interrogation previously? that this was one of the important questions of the interrogation? given to me and submitted to me and I immediately said, I said, that it is impossible, it is not understandable, because there were no Jews -that right? You yourself reacted to these reports by saying, by denying that there were so many Jews?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
then -well, can you tell the Tribunal what you told the interrogator then about executions in this interrogation. your first interrogation? You have been all the time referring to this. as I said during the interrogations and in my affidavit. During the interrogation I was in such a state of excitement -- as I was during these interrogations -- that I could not say at all what I wanted to say. I myself, was so upset because of these reports which the prosecutor gave me that I just could not say anything further and apart from that constantly charges were made against me and I get so upset about this and so excited that I could not give a reply.
Tribunal, about the sixty people who were killed in four executions, very detailed, about the time, the place and everything or just what did you tell him?
A Mr. Prosecutor, Mr. Wartenberg did not ask me about this.
Mr. Wartenberg wanted -
Q I do not want you to tell --tell us "no" if you like. Tell us now, "I did tell him that", or "I did not tell him that"; you answered that, "I was not asked by Mr. Wartenberg"; -- you were asked by me, and not by Mr. Wartenberg. me to describe one execution to him. I was to describe an execution to him from my memory; and there he wanted me to name a total num ber of people killed. That is what he wanted to have at the time -- the total figure was impossible for me to give. I constantly refused to do this.
Q Why did you do that? The witness doesn't answer, and tells a story which is no answer to the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Please put the question again, and we will see that you get an answer.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Did Mr. Wartenberg ask you whether you knew how many peopl were shot during your time?
THE PRESIDENT: Now please answer that -- yes or no?
A (By the witness) Yes.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Did you not yesterday, limit this number very specifically to approximately sixty people who were shot in four execution?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, or no?
A (By the witness) Yes.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Did you give this same explanation and information to Mr. Wartenberg?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes or no?
A (By the witness) I replied to his question, "How many were shot during one execution? " -- that is what he wanted to know -I told him, as far as I remember it must have been small groups -in my opinion a group of persons numbering between fifteen and thirty. That was the impression I got. I named this figure to Mr. "artenberg.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Did you tell that in the first interrogation on the 8th of July 1947?
A (By the witness) I no longer knew. I don't think so. I don't think I was asked. time?
THE PRESIDENT: But you didn't finish your question, Mr. Hochwald.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) The question, is -- Do you remember when the question, "How many people were killed during your time", was put to you the first time.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you remember now?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. He does remember. Put your next question.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Was that the first interrogation in Nuernberg? to you for the first time?
Q How many people were shot in your time? question was, for the first time, put to you?
Q Why did you do that? Why did you do that? at that moment--I well--I could not remember just then what, and how many persons were killed at the time, because they had to be shot, because I knew -- I immediately remembered -- the SK 4-B had -- I emphasize this -- to execute smaller groups, and I ....
Q Witness, you do not answer my--My I? -- You do not answer my question. I want to tell the Tribunal whether you gave to the interrogator, when first interrogated here in Nuenberg, the same information about these four executions -- whether sixty people were killed at three different places which you have stated here in direct and cross examinations.
Nothing else do I want to hear from you -
about examinations? Is that right or not?
A That is not true. I said, I refused to name -- when I was tortured again and again, in the end -- please understand me, now -I was so excited when I was asked again and again for a figure, I said "No, I cannot do this, I cannot name a figure. It would not have any basis." He did not ask me for a figure -- for a certain figure, a total figure "what happened during your time " -- and he later asked for the figures of the three executions mentioned -- I said fifteen to thirty persons.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, when you use the word "tirture", I presume you meant figuratively?
THE WITNESS: Yes. That is what I meant.
Q (By Mr. Hochwald) Is it not true that I have asked you the same question; I have asked you know many people were shot by your kommando during your time. You said, "approximately sixty." Absolutely the same question that was put to you in the interrogation. I, also, want an actual figure. A general figure -- nothing else.
A No, Mr. Hochwald-
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid now it is becoming argument.
MR. HOCHWALD: I withdraw the question. I only want to put in, the interrogation in question, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all right.
MR. HOCHWALD: This is Document NO-5572, and that will be Prosecution Exhibit 187, as far as I know.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Dr. Riediger, do you want to say anything further, before we withdraw the witness?
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, may I use this occasion to say that an expert should determine how old the document is in the photograph book. A chemical expert find out when this entry was made, approximately, whether these entires were made -- at least whether they were made several years age. It seems to me that this would clarify the case. The book can be put at the disposal of the Tribunal at any time.
MR. HOCHWALD: It is a matter of course that the Prosecution has no objection against such a submission by Defense counsel. However, I think it is premature at this time. It is the contention of the Prosecution that it would be more convenient to first hear the Court witness, who herself, allegedly made these entires, and then, eventually, call an expert on the hand-writing.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. RIEDIGER: At the proper time I shall repeat my request.
THE PRESIDENT: That will be entirely in order.
The witness will be returned to the defendants' dock. And the defendant Nosske will be taken into the witness stand.
Dr. Riediger please, I would suggest that you give the exhibits, numbers -- defendant exhibit numbers -- then they can officially become part of the records of the Tribunal.
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: If you have not yet presented any exhibits, you may start with "One." I would suggest you to do that, Dr. Riediger.
I would suggest -
DR. RIEDIGER: I beg your pardon, your Honor. I overlooked that a new document is being submitted now. Please give me an opportunity to look at this, and state my opinion.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, does this have to do with the case just finished.
Mr. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I just have introduced the interrogation about which the cross examination was concerned. This is new. This is a new document, 5572. And I think it is Prosecution Exhibit 187, is that right?
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: Correct.
MR. HOCHWALD: And I have offered it as such, about ten minutes age.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, the document is rather long, and I shall hardly be able to read it through at the moment. I therefore want to ask that I be permitted to refer to this document later on, Iwant to reserve this right. I must give it to the defendant Haensch first; in particular, I must reserve the right to make objection against the submission of this document. I can't do this at the moment, of course, because I don't knew the contents.
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, the contents of the document, certainly, are not based for objection by Defense counsel. Defense counsel has the possibility of saying the document is a forgery, or to say it has no probative value -- but as to the contents -
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in any event, Dr. Riediger has the right to examine it, and he cannot do it in a few seconds.
MR. HOCHWALD: I only wanted to make this clear.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. So that we will reserve to Dr. Riediger every right and every protection which goes with the submission of a document. But I would suggest that immediately, Dr. Riediger, you present to the Tribunal these exhibits. Just number them -- one, two, three -- so that officially they will become part of the records.