Q I don't think that you caught the question. You said first that since the people were already killed there was nothing to be done. Then I asked you, suppose you had found that 20 had been innocently killed, or rather done to death although innocent. I asked you if you could have done something in that event. You said yes, you could have punished the person who brought about the improper deaths. Do we understand each other to that point?
Q Then there was a purpose, wasn't there, in reviewing these cases to make certain that these 94 had been killed because they committed a crime, there was a purpose, wasn't there?
Q Yes, but you did not do this; you did not investigate the cases. tell me that the persons concerned were to be considered as the perpetrators.
Q Witness, did you or did you not review these cases? subkommando leader had investigated the cases properly, I could not take a part in the investigations any more.
Q Then you did not investigate the cases; you were satisfied with what the subkommando leader had done?
Q You gave him authority to shoot. In certain cases he shot 94 people. He reported to you, "I have killed 94", and you said, "Very well". authority, but assumed the authority according to the authority and the orders given by the Wehrmacht.
to follow your leadership, hadn't you? had the special mission to do what they had been commissioned to do, and since it was an order from the Wehrmacht, they had to keep within that sphere for which they were authorized. know were shot; you told us about two more you saw shot. Now, how many more do you know were shot under you leadership? special episode which impressed me. Then comes the period of time from the end of August until October where the command of the commando was taken over by somebody else, and I am not at all certain about the figure of those shot, and I am not sure how many were shot on my responsibility during that time. For the following time since I was only in command of a part of the commando I knew more about it.
Q You told us abour having seen two people shot. Then we asked you just before recess if you know of any others that were shot. I asked you if they were the only two that you knew that were actually done to death by your commando, and you said, "Oh, no, there were many killed in partisan actions." How many were killed in partisan actions?
A That figure I cannot recollect any more. I can estimate that, but this estimate might be roughly between 100 and 200. two hundred partisans, is that right?
A No, your Honor, I did. not give orders for this. These shootings were carried out with the participation of a part of my commando, and I go so far as to say under my responsibility.
I assume responsibility for this, but I did not give orders for this. to 200, is that what you are telling us? Wehrmacht, those persons who were caught as active partisans, were shot.
Q All right. Now, did you order the killing?
A No. I was far away.
Q. Who ordered the killings? Wehrmacht officer in Nikopol who set the whole thing going.
Q Did you have anything to do with it at all?
Q What did you have to do with it now? actively took part in these actions and in the shootings.
Q Were you present when these partisans were shot?
Q All right. Now, up to the present moment we have the tally that you actucally saw two people shot, you know of 94 others who were shot, and then you know of from 100 to 200 partisans who were shot, so let's say 150. That is 244 people that you know were shot by your command in all the time you were in Russia, is that correct? period in September and therefore I cannot give an estimate.
Q Then there were more than 244. I have only counted up to this point. There were at least 244 killed by your commando?
A. Yes, your Honor.
Q. Yes, all right.
A. Even more were shot.
Q. All right, now how many were shot? Now we are getting some place.
A. About that, even if I most carefully search my conscience I cannot arrive at any figure.
Q. well, you couldn't arrive at any figure no matter how much you scrutinized your conscience just before lunch. You didn't remember any figure. But now after a little bit of nourishment you are apparently able to extract from this elusive conscience which apparently does not answer too quickly to the demands of your brain, that 244 were Killed. Now, let's see if you cannot scrutinize a little more thoroughly.
A. No, your Honor, I have scrutinized my conscience so thoroughly, and my former testimony that I gave about this .......
Q. All right, we want to make certain you stand at the figure of 244. That is the most you know of that were Killed by your commando during the nine months you were in Russia, is that right?
A. No,"this is not the most. The total figure I simply cannot determine however hard I try.
Q. Tell us how many people in all you saw killed while you were in Russia, that you with your own eyes saw killed.
A. I already told you.
Q. How many.
A. The two where I was present.
Q. In all the time that you were in Russia, in the very midst of one of the most sanguinary wars of all times, in the field for nine months, you only saw two people Killed?
A. Yes, and this can only be explained and can only be appreciated in connection with the special conditions under which I was active in Russia. It cannot be separated or simply be judged somehow in a vacuum, but until October, I was in reserve - -
Q. But you have given us that. Now, how many Jews did you Kill while you were in Russia?
A. I cannot give a figure, because, as I already said in some cases of the shootings, the figure of the Jews participating was never found out and never reported to me.
Q. How many Jews did your commando kill?
A. Your Honor, I can only give the Same reply to this.
Q. Did they kill any because they were Jews?
A. NO. A more anti-Jewish action was not carried out by my commando.
Q. Did your commando at any time Kill any Jews under the Fuehrer Order?
A. No. That did not correspond with my attitude to the Fuehrer Order, and it did not happen.
Q. You know that Einsatzgruppe D Killed 90,000 people during the time it was in action in Russia. How do you explain the fact that your commando did not contribute any to that 90,000?
A. I can explain this by the fact that, first of all, the figure of 90,000 in my opinion, as far as I have heard from others and what I got to Know, is a figure which I simply cannot imagine.
Q. Well, don't let us talk about your imagination now. we are talking about -- do you think it was about one-half of the figure -- 45,000?
A. I cannot say this any more, than I can give the total figure of the shooting taken place under my responsibility.
Q. You just said you can't imagine 90,000, how many can you imagine?
A. I cannot imagine this at all.
Q. Can you not imagine the 90,000?
A. I can imagine a figure, but I cannot imagine this because I do not Know the circumstances - -
Q. Well, now, Witness, can you not tell us you weren't present you were in Russia?
A. For example, I was four to five hundred Kilometers away from the Crimea.
Anything that happened in the Crimea, I cannot imagine at all. figure? doubted this figure and have questioned this figure, and because I have heard of individual events at the time, that there were different figures.
Q Do you know Ohlendorf?
Q You served with him in the field, didn't you? of credence? he gave before the International Military Tribunal. He is questioned by Colonel Amen: "Do you Know how many persons were liquidated by Einsatzgruppe D under your direction?" Answer: Ohlendorf, "In the year between June 1941 to June 1942, the Einsatzkommandos reported 90,000 people liquidated," Question, "Did that include men, women and children?" Answer, "Yes." Do you still question the figure? not want to establish such a figure, and he does not -- I am sure he cannot think this possible or probable.
Q Do you Know what Ohlendorf is thinking about? other people, but have great difficulty in finding anything in your own conscience. How many people were killed by the Einsatzgruppe D during the time they were in Russia, since you challenge these figures?
cannot give a definite figure on this either. has been far more fortright than you have been from the witness stand. We might as well add that gratuitously. Why did you take the six or seven thousand Jewish People across the Dnjestr River? given an order to do so. by taking them back to Rumania? about it. them back to Rumania? wanted to go home, I could assume that the Jews were satisfied that they were allowed to go home.
Q Didn't you know that they were going to be shot when they got back to Rumania?
Q You assumed that, didn't you? Now, tell us whether you confirm what you said yesterday afternoon, "I assume that the Rumanians wanted to get rid of them and send them into the German territory so that we would have to shoot them and we would have the trouble of shooting them. We didn't want to do the work for the Rumanians."
Did you answer that yesterday in answer to Mr. Walton's question? back to their death didn't you? and I did not want to express that in my testimony yesterday. outside of this lending them across the river?
Q Did you ever arrest a Jew? which were taken, I believe that there were Jews among the people.
Q Did you ever arrest a Jew because he was a Jew?
Q Not even when you were in the Gestapo? already.
Q Did you arrest a Jew as a member of the Gestapo?
Q Well, you did then, how many?
A I don't know any longer.
Q Well, was it 500? they were Jews, I did not arrest any Jews while I was in the State Police, at least not without reason. you were in the Gestapo?
Q How many?
A That was not an order. The order was the one ..... a Jew when you were in the Gestapo? received once.
Q Yes. Now, tell us about that case. November 1938. At the time I was in Munich at a meeting.
Q Well, we don't want too much of it in detail. You arrested a Jew out of the incidents that occurred on November 9 and 10. What did you do with that Jew?
A No, that is not correct your Honor. In Graz and in Styria, the Reichsstatthalter who was present there stopped this action right at the start, and it saved me the trouble of carrying out this order.
Q Then you didn't arrest this Jew? did you not follow out this order to arrest a Jew?
Q All right, when did you join the SD? time you never Killed a Jew, you never arrested a Jew, is that right? war, my activity in the State police. were with the SS, did you ever kill a Jew in your whole life?
Q Did you ever arrest a Jew in your whole life?
arrested a Jew. Now, which answer are we supposed to believe -- did you arrest a Jew, or did you not arrest a Jew? arrested. and you finally were able, after great searching of your conscience, to say that you once received an order to arrest a Jew and then you didn't even execute that order. Now, you tell us that you did arrest some Jews. Now, how many Jews did you arrest in all your life?
Q Well, was it 100? which took place and I cannot possibly remember all those episodes.
Q How many Jews did you arrest in ell your life?
Q 25? the whole time while I worked in the Security Police, I did not carry out.
Q. Did you ever have any individual arrests? Let's leave aside mass arrests -- individual arrests?
A. They also occurred.
Q. How many -- how many Jews did you arrest individually?
A. Your Honor, in view of the numerous State Police events throughout those years, I cannot recollect this at all.
Q. You remembered this one single solitary episode of the order which you received and went into great detail as to why it wasn't necessary to execute it, but yet you cannot remember how many you actually arrested?
A. Your Honor, this one case was a special event.
Q. All right, now you have told us that. Now, answer this question, how many Jews in all your life did you arrest?
A. I cannot possible give that figure.
Q. Would you say it was 50?
A. Your Honor, any figure is wrong.
Q. Would you say it was 5?
A. Your Honor, my testimony will not become any more concrete if I also have to refuse to answer this question.
Q. Did you ever molest a Jew?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever beat a Jew?
A. Never, your Honor.
Q. Did you ever take away his property?
A. No, your Honor.
Q. In all the time that you were in Russia, did you ever execute the Fuehrer Order insofar as it pertained to Jews?
A. No, I evaded it.
Q. Well, why did you go to so much trouble yesterday and on Thursday in telling us how heartbroken, how conscience-stricken, how morally depressed you were because of Fuehrer Order -- you never executed it?
A. Because I was worried and because I was afraid to be put into a situation, where I would have had to carry out this order, where I could not have evaded this order.
Q. When you took the witness stand you immediately began your testimony with the expression of the great shock which you experienced when receiving this Fuehrer Order. Now, if you never killed a Jew, doesn't it occur to you that it would have been far more logical to begin your testimony by saying, "I never killed a Jew, never arrested a Jew, never molested a Jew, so therefore the Fuehrer Order in no way affected me", might that have been a little more logical?
A. Your Honor, the testimony which I make here under oath in the witness stand I did not make from a point of view of logic, but only according to my conscience.
Q. Do you find a great difference between logic and conscience?
A. Between mind and feelings and that what I consider conscience, there is a difference.
Q. Are you adjusting your answers according to the reports which you have studied or according to your memory of the events as they occurred?
A. I make them according to my conscience.
Q. Do you believe in the Nazi ideology?
A. That question would have to be replied to in a different way now, than it would have been replied to formerly.
Q. Well, did you believe in it then -- I don't mean now -- all the time that you were the uniform -- did you believe in the SS?
A. Only for some parts of it, not the entire Nazi ideology.
Q. Did you take the oath to Hitler?
A. Yes,
Q. Did you hear his speeches -- some of them?
A. Several, certainly.
Q. Did you read the Nazi Party program?
A. If I must also scrutinize my conscience, in this respect -- no.
Q. Did you read "Mein Kampf"?
A. Certainly not.
Q. Did you associate with other Nazi members?
A. I was bound to.
Q. Well, then you knew generally what the policy of the Nazi Party was with regard to Jews?
A. In general, yes.
Q. Yes. And did you agree with that policy?
A. No, or only with part of it, Q. which part did you agree with?
A. In fact, I had no objections -- no important objections to the fact that the Jews before the War be limited to a proportion in accordance with their number and could only have an influence in accordance with this proportion.
Q. That is the extent to which you agreed with the Nazi program insofar as it pertained to Jews?
A. I can confirm this even more because I talked to Jews myself, who also held this opinion.
Q. Well, now, I am just -
A. Who themselves had that opinion.
Q. Yes. Did you believe that they should wear signs on their breasts and on their backs pointing out to the world that they were Jews?
A. Those things I consider unworthy.
Q. Did you believe that they should be disfranchised and deprived of citizenship, no matter how long they had lived in Germany?
A. They were not deprived of their citizen rights, they continued to be citizens even after the Nuernberg laws.
Q. Did you believe that their property should be taken from them?
A. No
Q. Did you believe they should be sent to concentration camps?
A. No definitely not.
Q. Did you believe that they should be put into ghettos?
A. No.
Q. Did you believe that they should be made to work without pay?
A. No.
Q. Did you believe that they should be publicly humiliated and degraded?
A. No
Q. Why then did you remain a member of organization which did these things?
A. All these things, your Honor, which mentioned here are events which developed at a later time.
Q. When did they develop?
A. The most important things which you mentioned here occurred only after the beginning of the war when I was under military law and had no choice but was forced.
Q. You said that none of these things happened before 1939 -- September 1, 1939?
A. I said expressly, your Honor, a few of them, and those which occurred before the war could not give me the impression that they were such as to oblige me to leave my organization already at that time.
Q. November 10, 1938 is chronologically prior to September 1, 1939, isn't it?
A. Your Honor -
Q. Please answer that question.
A. That is right.
Q. Yes. And you knew of your own personal knowledge of the excesses against the Jews on those two disgraceful days, November 10 and 11 -- you knew of your own personal Knowledge, didn't you, of what happened?
A. I heard about it.
Q. Yes. Did you leave the SS after you heard of these excesses?
A. No, your Honor, I did not leave it because these excesses had nothing to do with my organization.
Q. You Knew that the synagogues were being destroyed, didn't you?
A. I heard about it, and I was just as disgusted about these matters.
Q. And you Knew that Jews were being sent to concentration camps prior to September 1939, didn't you?
A. No, your Honor.
Q. You didn't know that?
A. I only heard of it, and according to what I heard of the events of the 9th and 10th, only the following happened: at the order of Heydrich the Jews were arrested and were released again some weeks later. This was a measure to which Heydrich felt himself compelled and, which was not his original intention. This was merely done in order to stop those wild actions which Goebbels organized. That is what the Reichstatthalter told me, and from those who disapproved of this in the highest circles, I did not get the impression that this was the intention of the state and of the responsible persons.
Q. Nonetheless, you Know that Heydrich issued an order to arrest Jews, especially the rich ones, and to take them into protective custody, and you Know that he issued orders that the police were not to in any way interfere with any violence against Jews and Jewish property, you Knew about that didn't you?
A. The order did not read like that, your Honor. The order read, the Jews and in particular the rich Jews, were to be arrested and this was done in particular during the wild actions which were initiated by the SA and through Goebbels in order to take these persons into protective custody, to really protect them so that no excesses would occur which necessarily according to Goebbels orders would affect the rich Jews.
Q. Then we conclude from what you said that you approved of Heydrich's order of November 10, 1938 you approved of that order:
A. I did not approve of this order, but I considered that this order could be explained.
Q. You were defending Heydrich's order. Now we ask you, did you approve of it, or did you not?
A. If I considered Heydrich's order understandable insofar, I still did not approve of it, but I can imagine that in this forced situation Heydrich hardly had any other way out to legalize these violent excesses.
Q. Then you did not approve of what he did, is that right?
A. On a whole, I did not agree to it.
Q. But you still remained with the SS?
A. I remained because those were no measures which my organization had started at all, and I could not make my organization responsible for what Heydrich might have done in a state of compulsion, and I could not consider them to be the cause for having increased the severity of the Jewish Question. I am convinced that without those violent actions Heydrich on his own would never have given such an order at that time.
Q. I will read to you from the decision of the International Military Tribunal, "In the early morning of November 10, 1938, Heydrich sent a telegram to all offices of the Gestapo and SD giving instructions for the organization of the programs of that date and instructing them to arrest as many Jews as the prison could hold, especially rich ones, but to be careful that those arrested were healthy and not too old." Did you approve of that action?
A. Your Honor, what is contained in this IMT judgement I did not know, I only knew Heydrich's original order, and since this original order in my territory and from that Reichstatthalter in Styria was considered as being settled, because no violent actions had occurred in my territory, I had no reason to disapprove.
Q. We asked you only simply whether you approved of the order or not.
Do you defend Heydrich's order or not?
A. I was horrified about this order, but after I heard the reasons, why this order had been given by Heydrich, I could not consider this order quite as dangerous, because Heydrich did not originally initiate this order, but was forced to carry out such a measure of arrest.
Q. Then we come to the conclusion that originally it horrified you, but after inquiry you were satisfied that it was an order dictated by necessity -- do we correctly interpret your view?
& 19 Court 2, Case 9
A. It was not a measure originally intended by Heydrich, and when I realized that, I could not condemn Heydrich as much, if I may say so new - because he would not have done it ----
Q. Very well. Now you are just repeating what you said before, so that we will conclude from whit you say you could not condemn Heydrich. How we ask you if you condemned the events which followed the Heydrich orders?
A. In my territory nothing happened, and since I thought it was similar in other territories, I thought that with reasonable consideration of all the events this measure would not be carried out to its full extent.
Q. You know from the newspapers and from your conversations with your associates what actually happened on those two days, don't you? You know of the violent excesses?
A. In the newspapers in consideration of the foreign countries no details were mentioned about these events, at least not in our newspaper in the Reich, and when weeks later I managed to talk to so someone or other, these people were able to inform me that in their territories, too, this action had been carried out in such a manner that the Jews, some of whom had been arrested, were already released and that, therefore, the entire action which Goebbels had started, through interference of the Security Police had been done away with.
Q. Well, did you know that some of those Jews had been sent to concentration camps?
A. I did not hear anything about that.
Q. So you were telling this Tribunal that in all that time you were in the Gestapo you never heard of any Jews being sent to concentration camps because they were Jews?
A. Of course. Your Honor, only now I thought to speak about this question in connection with 9 November.