Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A No, the grave was not behind them. They were shot next to the grave, not so they fell into the grave. I gave a special directive concerning this, and that they be shot with their fronts to the squad, because they were shot blindfolded. I was not there myself. I only gave the directive, and I asked for an orderly and correct execution.
Q And they were shot at ten paces? expressly whether he had followed my directive concerning the shooting of these three women.
Q And how many men were on the firing squad?
Q How soon after the execution did you leave?
A. I was only there when it was prepared. I spoke to the NCO that the Jews should he lined up, five men in each group. When the first five men were led in a message arrived from the Mayor saying that in Latarsk Jewish women were having trouble with the Russian women and that I should come immediately because they were beating up each other. I immediately had to leave as I was the only one who could settle the matter.
Q. Who were beating up each other? Russian women?
A. The Russian women and the Jewish women - they were squabbling over their property.
Q. And you regarded that of more importance - a fight between women, pulling each other's hair. I imagine, than the execution of three women and thirty men? You regarded that of more importance, did you?
A. Your Honor, the situation was such that the Mayor sent a messenger and asked that I should come immediately because a fight had broken out between Russian and Jewish women and it wasn't possible to create order. I had to leave. There was no other man who could speak Russian and could handle the situation. I also knew that the NCO had received the orders to carry out the executions in proper order and he certainly was a man who was serious and correct, and therefore it was guaranteed to me that these executions would be carried out in a correct manner.
Q. How far away was the town from the scene of the execution?
A. One kilometer approximately.
Q. Did you go back after you had settled the fight between the women to the scene of the execution at make certain that all had gone well?
A. No, no, I didn't have the opportunity to do so because I had to be careful that no new fights should break out.
Q. You were the guardian of the peace in this town to see that the women didn't fight with each other?
A. Well, your Honor, after all if women fight one has to do something, hasn't one?
Q. Well, I don't think so. I think I would let them fight. What certainly isn't of more importance than a matter of life and death. Did you conduct an investigation yourself into the cases of these thirty men and the three women?
A. Yes, your Honor. I have stated to this effect that I carried out extensive investigations.
Q. You said that they had been in contact with the Partisans?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, how did you seize them if they had already gotten in contact with Partisans and were cooperating with them?
A. I arrest them. They were the men who had remained in Tatarsk and on these I could establish the fact that they were in contact with Partisans and had caused the mutiny.
Q. Well, they had not joined the Partisans?
A. They had contact with the Partisans and they had declared themselves prepared to spy for the Partisans, a so-called reconnaissance service. They confessed that to me. Therefore, they had remained in Tatarsk in contrast to those Jews who had left.
Q. Where did they contact the Partisans? Right in the Ghetto?
A. Yes. May I give an explanation of the whole event. First of all - -
Q. Did they contact the Partisans in the Ghetto?
A. The Partisans had taken up contact with the Jews via these three women.
Q. Did these thirty men contact the Partisans in the Ghetto?
A. Yes.
Q. The Partisans came right into the Ghetto and talked with the Jews?
A. No. These three women, these three agents, established connections between the Jews and the Partisans and cited the Jews to leave the Ghetto.
Q. The three women left the Ghetto and talked, with the Partisans, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then came back.
A. And then they came back.
Q. And they talked with these other thirty man that were left in the Ghetto?
A. No, they spoke to all of the men in the Ghetto.
Q. Well, you sh** thirty. I am talking about these thirty. These never left the town. Now, when these three women came back did they talk to these thirty?
A. To these thirty and others.
Q. But these thirty did not join the Partisans they were there?
A. They remained, They remained with the intention to Work for the Partisans, these that remained - otherwise they would't have been there.
Q. Wouldn't have been, where
A. If they had had the intention to escape into the woods and work actively as Partisans, rifle in hard, then they wouldn't have been there. They would have been in the woods but they had expressly remained to do work for the Partisans in the Ghetto.
Q. They remained in the Ghetto - they were not armed?
A. Then were not in the Ghetto when I came.
Q. Well, they were in Tatarsk.
A. They were in Tatarsk and they had come back into their former apartments to hide themselves as there.
Q. They were living in their homes? The homos in which they lived before you arrived, is that right?
A. Yes, they had unrightfully returned to their apartments although it was forbidden.
Q. They returned home and you regarded that as being illegal, were they armed?
A. No, they were not armed. That they wouldn't hare dared in the town to show arms.
Q. So that the evidence you had was that these three women had left the Ghetto, gone into the woods and conferred with Partisans and cams back and talked with these thirty?
A. That is the fact but not only those so but also the other men.
Q. Yes, I know, they talked to others but we are talking about the thirty you shot. The evidence you had against them was that these three women had gone into the woods, spoken with the Partisans and returned and spoke in these thirty, We will forget about the others for a report.
A. I did not quite understand this question.
Q. The three women, the Jewesses had left the Ghetto, gone into the woods, contacted the Partisans, and then returned to Tatarsk and had talked with these thirty men?
A. Yes.
Q. And because of that contact that the 30 man had had with these three women you regarded them as having committed a crime which could only be expiated by being shot?
A. No, your Honor, not because they had spoken to the women but I had proved, based on these investigations, that through these three women contact had been taken up with Partisans and they had declared themselves prepared to work with Partisans in Tatarsk and had remained there for this express purpose.
Q. The only evert act which they had committed was to leave the Ghetto, return to their homes, speak with the three women, and for what they did they had to expiate this offense with their lives, is that correct?
A. No.
Q. What did they do overtly which was criminal?
A. They had taker, up contact with Partisans which by a directive of the Wehrmacht was punishable by the death penalty.
Q. But this had been done through the three women, that's right isn't it? The 30 men themselves did not leave Tatarsk?
A. No.
Q. So that they personally physically had had no contact with the Partisans?
A. Not physically but mentally, your Honor.
Q. Mentally, yes and the only contact they had was through these three Women?
A. Yes, through these three women.
Q. All right. So, therefore, the evidence which you had upon which to kill these thirty Jews was that they had mentally communicated with the Partisans and they were in their homes mentally determined to resist you. That's the evidence you had, isn't it?
A With the promise to do agent service for the Partisans. This was an important element, your Honor. They had confessed in the interrogations that they were about to conduce espionage acts. This in itself was sufficient to identify them with the Partisans and there was a Wehrmacht regulation for the death penalty no matter in whatever shape this contact was established. act of an agent, had they?
A This was not necessary according to regulations. your Honor. The fact itself that the people had been proved guilty of having taken up contact with the Partisans was sufficient for the death penalty according to the Wehrmacht regulation. In view of the special situation in which we found ourselves in in the Eastern territories the Partisan danger made this measure necessary. their homes where they had been living for years and you isolated them in a ghetto, you forbade them to have contact with the rest of the world. then they left the Ghetto. three women went away from the Ghetto. and returned and these thirty and the three women and in accordance with information which you obtained you believed conscientiously chat they deserved death? Does that distinctly tell the story? into the Ghetto. That was carried out by others and was in accordance with a special order. It was merely for me to establish who had left the ghetto and who had taken up contact with the Partisans. That was what I had to carry out, and there was nothing else, your Honor. Once for all the order had been given to Jews that leaving the Ghetto was punished by death. There was, in addition, the Wehrmacht directive that contact with Partisans was punishable by death and I had to act according to these directives and orders given by higher authorities.
to impose the death penalty on Jews leaving the Ghetto. work for Partisans.
Q Just what do you mean by contact with the Partisans?
Q Well repeating the same word doesn't help us a bit. That is like asking what is a cook and saying a cook is one who cooks. Tell us what you mean by contact with Partisans. You told us before that it was a mental contact. a man is prepared to work for Partisans. That then in itself is a contact with them. He makes himself guilty of being partisan and is thereby treated as a Partisan in accordance with regulations. If these men furthermore had contributed through their attitude to the fact that the others had the possibility to escape into the woods and to reenforce the partisan gangs for the combat against the Wehrmacht...
Q If a Jew in this town said "I will work with the Partisans" and nothing else happened would that be enough to bring about the death penalty?
A If there was evidence to his saying "I will work with the Partisans", or if he........
Q No, please don't add to it. This Jew says to you. "I intend to work with Partisans' and that's all you have in the way of evidence. Would that be enough so shoot him. Partisans-- and I cannot produce evidence against him....
Q No, it isn't a wish. So says. "I intend to work with the Partisans". Those are the words - would you shoot him? intention to work with the Partisans?
Partisans. They had not ....
Q What did they do? Tell us what they did. Tell us what they did more than express an intention to work with Partisans. Tell us what they did? or an least had evidence of. Partisans had left the Ghetto and carried out espionage acts for Partisans. act in time. work with Partisans? Partisans it was more than just more intention in my opinion it was already beyond that.....
Q Had these thirty actually contacted face to face Partisans? Had they gone into the woods and talked with them?
A No. But they.... partisans....
Q Very well. You found them in their homes. You arrested them and according to what you say they confessed that they wanted to act with the Partisans, is that right?
Q Now witness, isn't the real turth of the matter that you executed these thirty because of the Fuehrer order because they were Jews. isn't that the reason you executed them?
Q Did you know the Fuehrer order?
Q Where you executing the Fauhrer order? order which said you has he execute Jews and they hadn't done anything. with 30 Jews who were to be shot in accordance with the Fuehrer order, but with 30 Jews there were allies of the partisans. investigation and you come to the conclusion that they are absolutely innocent of any contact with Partisans and you have this Fuehrer order before you or in your pocket or in your head, certainly in your mind, that you must kill Jews, would you release these 30 Jews?
Q What would you do? You would shoot them? have reinstalled the Jews in the Ghetto.
Q And then you would have shot them later?
Q What did you do with the Fuehrer order? Jews in accordance with the Fuehrer order then I would have shot them but in this case the Fuehrer order did not necessitate this action. Partisans, whether they had contact with Partisans or merely remained innocently in their homes they were Jews and under the Fuehrer order they were to be shot, that is correct isn't it? that time those people who were able to work were not to be shot and as a matter of fact an Anti-Jewish action on the basis of the Fuehrer order had already been carried out a month earlier by Noack. As I 11 Dec 1947_A_MSD_19_5_Gross (Hildesheimer) have already said, at that time the Jews were settled in the Tatarsk ghetto that had also been based on the Fuehrer order.
Jews now living in Tatarsk did not practically come under the Fuehrer order as it was formulated at that time where it says that only old Jews who could not work any longer were to be shot. Therefore, I would have had the possibility in case of their established innocence to reinstall them in the Ghetto.
Q How many old Jews did you shoot?
A You mean among those 30?
Q No No. How many old Jews did you shoot because the order said you should, shoot only old Jews, according to what you now tell us, how many old Jews did you shoot? enough to flee into the woods, Did the older Jews also go into the woods?
A No, there weren't old Jews, as far as I can remember no Jew was more than 55 years old.
Q Were they any old Jews in Tatarsk at all?
A Not at that time any more. They had been shot by Noack before.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Mayer, I am sorry I interrupted you in your examination of your client. You may take it up, of course. There is just one question I would like to ask. You say that the ablebodied Jews were not to be shot immediately, and the natural implica tion is that they were being saved for working purposes. What work were they doing?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, as I had nothing to do with the Jewish question I cannot say anything from my personal experiences. I only know that able-bodied Jews were assigned for labor generally, in what way and in what capacity I do not know.
THE PRESIDENT: Here you are in this town carrying on a very extensive investigation. Certainly in that investigation it must have come to your attention and knowledge what work they were doing.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it wasn't really a city. It was only a larger village, and during the time of my presence in this place I did not actually see the Jews work. I never asked the mayor what labor they were allocated to. That had nothing to do with my original assignment. I merely knew that Jews were used for labor.
THE PRESIDENT: You may continue Dr. Mayor, please.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. MAYER: I have to put one question. which is. whether you were a commando chief?
Q What authority, therefore, was missing in your case? Order as I had no executive power, without having received the express order by my superior.
Q Did you ever receive his order?
you arrived in Tatarsk you saw Jews who were just about to vanish in the woods, and you had the woods surrounded and combed through. Did this combine operation have any result whatsoever?
A Yes, in this wood five or six Jews were caught. They were Jews trying to escape when they saw my column approach Tatarsk.
THE PRESIDENT: How many men were in this column?
THE WITNESS: Dive or six men, Your Honor. BY DR. MAYER: shot? that he would he handed. Who uttered this threat? who had remained in Tatarsk and now were guarding the place.
Q I see. Yes, now proceed with the direct examination, Witness.
THE PRESIDENT: I am sorry, I didn't catch that statement, that the threat was expressed by the Jews and they were now guarding the place. There must be something wrong there.
THE WITNESS: These Jews had threatened the mayor, and, of course, they remained there.
THE PRESIDENT: The phrase, "guarding the place", who was guarding?
THE WITNESS: The Jews who had remained in Tatarsk were supposed to guard the mayor so that he would not vanish, or watch him. BY DR. MAYER: The next question, Witness, is: was this operation an undertaking of the Advance Kommando Moscow? was again independent and was stationed in Spass-Demensk. That was not in Smolensk.
contradiction of your attitude toward the Fuehrer Order as you had stated before? matter to be discussed, and because I had no order to this effect it was here merely a matter of an acute danger which threatened the security of the rear Army territory. The severity of the order as passed on to me by Nebe was conditioned by the very dangerous activity on the part of the partisans , and it was here not a matter of an anti-Jewish action in accordance with the Fuehrer Order but solely and merely a necessary military measure in order to maintain security of the Army for whom the Einsatzgruppe B was responsible to the Wehrmacht.
Q. I now come to the documents. Witness, the Prosecution has submitted an affidavit of 2 July 1947 which you have signed. It is in Document Book III-B. It is on English page 57, German page 112. It is No. NO-4235 Exhibit 124. I would like you to look at this. Have you anything to add to this? whole statement which I made on the 1st of June, 1947. When, before I signed, I complained about some distorting remarks which I had made, the interrogator, Mr. Wartenberg, informed me that this did not mean very much and that any rectifications and corrections I could make at a later point. Upon this statement I took the opportunity to make out a new affidavit, on the 17th of September, 1947, using the necessary supplements, additions and corrections which I then submitted to the Prosecution, which was accepted by Mr. Wartenberg and signed. This affidavit of the 17th of September, 1947, contained the exact statements concerning events and developments, as well as my own position within the Advance Kommando Moscow, or at least the staff of the Einsatzgruppe B. But the Prosecution did not submit it to the Tribunal.
My counsel, however, will submit it in his document book.
THE PRESIDENT: When did you receive a copy of the indictment?
THE WITNESS: I received a copy of the indictment, Your Honor, at the beginning of August. I don't remember the exact date.
THE PRESIDENT: This affidavit was made out -
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. I now remember it was during the last day s of July.
THE PRESIDENT: So that this affidavit of which you speak was written about two months after you received a copy of the indictment?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, Dr. Mayer.
THE WITNESS: Because I had no opportunity to do so before.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. MAYER: Moscow, and at no period whatsoever I held any executive power within the formation. After Dr. Six was released in August, 1941, the Chief of Einsatzgruppe B, Nebe, upon directives from Berlin, took over personally the leadership of the Advance Kommando Moscow as this group consisted of special experts.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Mayer, is your document book ready. I don't have a copy of it.
DR. MAYER: It is not ready yet. It is just being translated, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have this affidavit ready?
DR. MAYER: Only in German, Your Honor. May I, therefore, suggest perhaps. Your Honor, that the witness should deal with the essential point which the Tribunal wants to know, the points out of the affidavit of the 17th of September.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we thought for your own benefit it might be well if you could get that affidavit before us while the witness is still on the stand.
DR. MAYER: I don't think there will be time enough as far as translation is concerned.
THE PRESIDENT: You asked him about the differences. Now, by all means you can proceed just as if you do have that affidavit before you, which you do have in the German.
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. FERENCZ: If Your Honors please, the Prosecution has had the affidavit translated and mimeographed, and I am sure I can have it for the defense by tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. You nay proceed to have the witness make any explanations that he believes are in order with regard to what is contained in the affidavits which are actually before the tribunal, whether you have another one or not.
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor. BY DR. MAYER: was put to you. absence. This case, however, never happened as early as the middle of September, 1941, the new chief of the Advance Kommando Moscow appointed in Berlin, Obersturmbannfuehrer Koerting, arrived in Smolensk and took over the command of the VKM. At the end of October 1941, the small advance commando group staff which was leaving in the direction of Moscow was a completely new unit which had nothing to do with the actual Advance Kommando Moscow.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
The advance commando Moscow was at that time under Koerting in Spass Demensk, a locality, about 100 kilometers to the east of Smolensk. in Mstislawl and Tatarsk mentioned in the prosecution documents against you?
Q Can you say in what document it is mentioned?
A Yes. It is mentioned in the document which I have just received, No. 4809. It is Exhibit No. 125; English page 116-I am sorry, 161; it is in Document Book IIIB.
Q Yes, but I don:t mean the affidavit itself, but the documents which have been submitted concerning Russia, that is, the Reports of Events. is contained. second affidavit? operation in your first report independently, without the prosecution material to the effect having been shown to you, and used against you? mutiny in Tatarsk contained in the Reports of Events?
A Yes. The Tatarsk mutiny is mentioned in the document. your assignment given by Nebe to carry out investigations in Tatarsk? affidavit before the indictment was served you described this action-
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
this operation in Tatarsk? as it actually happened?
Q I now come to the next question; the prosecution charges you, that is in Document Book IIB, English page 22; German page 22, document No. 2344; Exhibit 61; Report of Events Number 73 of the 4th of September 1941, in order to prove two things, first, your participation as a member of the Special Commando 7B and, secondly, your participation in the Advance Commando Moscow. As far as Special Commando 7B is concerned, the total figure of executions until the 20th of August 1941 are on page 7 of the original document is 886. I now ask you, did you participate in these executions carried out by Special Commando 7B? Commando 7B, that is, from the 22nd of June until the 10th of July 141, that is, during the first three weeks of its existence, Special Commando 7B as it was a constantly advancing, according to my knowledge, never carried out any executions, as there was no possibility to do so. Executions that resulted in these figures can only have been carried out in my opinion after the Special Commando 7B had left Minsk. Since Minsk, I was not in Special Commando 7B, and I can, therefore, not say anything about its further activity. the same document, it is stated that Advance Commando Moscow had to load 46 people to executions, and on page 17 of the document it says that the total figure of people executed of this staff and the Advance Commando Moscow until the 20th of August 141 is 144. Can you comment on this? and the VKM. During my activity in the Advance Commando Moscow from the 10th or 11th July 1941 until Six left, neither of the Group Staff nor of Court No. II, Case No. IX.
the Advance Commando Moscow, did I know about any executions, nor did I participate in any form whatsoever in such executions. on page 47, and German page 42, Document No. 3143, Exhibit Number 64. That is Report of Events Number 92 of the 23rd of December 1941. On page 6 of the original, the total figure of executions of the staff and Advance Commando Moscow, according to the statistics of 13th of September, 141, the number 312 is mentioned, in contrast to the former figure of the 20th of August, it is 168 more. Can you explain this increase?
PRESIDENT: Dr. Mayer, you gave us the page of the original, but it doesn't coincide with -
DR. MAYER: English on page 47.
PRESIDENT: Then you said page 6 of the original, but page 6 of the original doesn't appear. It begins with page 14, page 15, page 24, page 32.
DR. MAYER: It is 6 within the document book; it is page 53 of the English Document Book.
PRESIDENT: Oh, I see, thank you. Proceed. BY DR. MAYER:
Q Witness, can you explain this 168 increase? it was raised. The Advance Commando Moscow was at that time together with the Group Staff, under the chief of the staff of the Einsatzgruppe B, Nebe, who, therefore, combined the execution figures of these two groups. Since Smolensk, I know that the Group Staff of the Einsatzgruppe B carried out their own operations and executions, which, in detail, I am equally unaware of, as well as the operation and measures Carried out by the individual departmental experts of the Verkommando Moscow, who ware assigned by Nebe for their special functions and received their directives and orders from him, and reported to Nebe independently. I can merely assume that the figures which I directly learned of execution in Mstislawl and Tatarsk, which I was informed Court No. II, Case No. IX.
about by Hauptsturmfuehrer Noack, are contained in these.
Q The next document will be in Document Book IIB. Please take that out. Page 16 in the English, page 15 of the German, No. 3156; it is Exhibit 60, Report of Events 108 of 9 October 1941. On page 7 of the document it states in contrast to the preceding figure, 312, and it contains 2029. That is an increase again of 1717. Did you participate in these further executions?