able to shoot the others, is that correct?
A No, that was not the case. The women did not give me any information. I got the information on the basis of interrogating the Jews concerned or the Jewish Council of Elders and the men. partisans when their only contact was through the women and forget all about the women?
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor, that's it. I cannot give any explanation for this. In this six years I completely forgot about it. I did know that the men had contact with the partisans, but I had completely forgotten about the three women. At the moment when I first saw the document, when I gave my second affidavit, when I read there that three woman were also shot, I, of course, remembered everything, but actually it was missing in my memory and I have no explanation for it. were in Tatarsk, that is, all the Jewish women, were shot, and is just happened that there were only three. Isn't that the way you read the report? children, but whom I sent back into the Ghetto.
Q What does this report men then, "Three women who were in Tatarsk at that time were shot"? Why do they say, "The three women who were there were shot"?
A Here it says,"as well as three women", not, "the three women".
Q Did you say it is an error in the translation?
A There must be a mistake in the translation, yes. It only says, "As well as three women", not, "just these three women." get a translation at this time. Don't leave out any words.
A "As punishment for not complying with the orders of the German Security Police, all male Jews being in Tatarsk, as well as three women were shot."
Q What happened to the children?
A Well, the children remained with the women. Women and children were sent back. there, the fathers, plus these three women.
A I shot no fathers, Mr. Prosecutor. I shot people who had come into contact with the partisans and who thus violated the instructions of the Army and the directives of the Security Police. that they left the Ghetto and, second, that --or they did not leave the Ghetto - they all remained in the Ghetto, but they had some mental contact with these partisans, is that correct?
basis of this contact they had left the Ghetto. When I arrived in Tatarsk they were no longer in the Ghetto. For the most part they had fled into the forest. That is why there were only 30 men left in Tatarsk. With definite intentions they had all left the Ghetto when I arrived in Tatarsk.
Q So the crime then was this: You ordered them to stay in the Ghetto where as Jews they had to wait until you could carry out the Fuehrer Order and murder them and because they left the Ghetto and tried to seek some refuge, that is the crime which justifies your killing them. Is that what you are trying to say? By trying to evade your murder, that justifies your killing them. Is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, first of all, I did not send the Jews into the Ghetto. The Jews were sent into the Ghetto on the basis of the Fuehrer Order, by the men who had this order, second, they were obliged to adhere to some directives which were given for security reasons. If, for some reasons, they would leave the Ghetto on their own initiative they violated the directives of the Security Police and thereby the security of the rear Army area. That was one point. The second point, as I have already stated, is that this leaving of the Ghetto happened at the instigation of the partisans and that for the most part the men immediately had left Tatarsk in order to join the partisans and that those 30 had been left over with the express intention to work for the partisans. Thus, they had practically allied themselves with the partisans. These were the reasons, the one and the other. The one was the forbidding to leave the Ghetto for security reasons and the other was the violation of the general prohibition which the Army had decreed: to join the partisans or to support the partisans any way or to establish contact with them in any way. These were the reasons which caused me to have these 30 men and these 3 women shot.
Q Aren't you then saying in substance, that the crime which you regarded as punishable by death , was the failure of the Jews to wait where they had been ordered to wait until they could be killed in accordance with the Fuehrer Order?
orders which said that thed were all to be murdered? killed? there for the purpose of being killed?
A No, I don't know this. The Jews were collected in the Ghetto in order to guard them.
Q To protect them, are you trying to say? To guard them against what? To guard them against what? in the sense of the security of the rear Army areas.
Q What happened to the Fuehrer Order? limited by this time, so that the able-bodied Jews would be used for labor. I knew this. That is all what I knew. out about that limitation?
A I do not know when it was limited. I heard about it the first time when I was in Mstislawl with Noack; that is when he told me about it and I later gathered it from the conversations of the group, but when it was issued, I don't know.
Q And even with the limitation, didn't it mean that all Jews who were unable to work were to be killed, isn't that so?
A I don't understand the question.
Q What was the limitation on the Fuehrer Order? far as it concerns the old, the woman and the children, the sick, who were unable to work until the Einsatzkommando could get around to shoot them in accordance with the Fuehrer Order, even with the limitation.
Q They were guarded by units under your command?
Q They were guarded by German units?
Q By when were they guarded? Jews, put them in the Ghetto, and said, "Now you wait here." the Security Police, who were competent for this, but when they were once in the Ghetto then they were under the supervision of the local mayor. put the Jews in the Ghetto who were too old or too week to work?
A I do not know, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Did you ever hear of the Fuehrer Order? Jews?
Ghetto You don't know. Did you suddenly have a lapse of memory? because they were being used for labor.
Q How about the old ones and the sick ones who couldn't work? was limited at that time, so that only those not able to work would be shot. until you could get around, or the Einsatzkommando could get around to shooting them, is that correct?
A I don't know, I do not know what to answer.
Q I know you don't know what to answer, because the answer is "Yes, it is correct", now, isn't that true?
A I don't know.
Q Why don't you know?
Q Your answer then is "Yes"? they were shot afterwards, well, it probably happened on the basis of the Fuehrer Order.
Q You say, "it probably happened". Do you think the Fuehrer Order was not carried out?
Q Then They were killed?
Q So then, what we have is this: The Jews are put into the Ghetto for the purpose either of working or for the purpose of being killed if they couldn't work and because they leave the Ghetto and try to escape or contact the partisans in any vagye way, that justifies your killing them afterwards, is that correct?
the investigations, others, non-Jews, because the directives were there to be obeyed and especially during war.
Q You regarded it then as a crime to try to save your life?
A I don't know whether that was the reason, to save their life. After people established contact with partisans and wanted to go outside, I don't know whether that could be considered as saying one's life.
Q Now, just a moment. If a Jew left the Ghetto, what happened to him? When a Jew left the Ghetto what happened to him?
A If a Jew left the Ghetto without permission, I don't know, I do not know what measures were taken then. killed. Now, if he left the Ghetto, was he then set free? given.
Q So that he was killed anyway?
Q So, actually, it didn't matter what a Jew did, whether he stayed or whether he went, he was killed.
Q You told us that if he stayed he was killed. You told us that if he went he was killed. Now I asked you if he stayed or if he went he was killed, you say you don't know. Why is it you don't know? Is the question -was killed.
he was killed. If he stayed in the Ghetto and if he left the Ghetto he was killed. If he contacted the partisans he was killed. If he did not contact the partisans he was killed. No matter what a Jew did he was killed, is that correct? you defense, is it?
A Which investigations? There was a big fuss and interrogations. You determined if they were contacting partisans. What was the purpose of this if Jews were killed any way, as you have just told us. Did you have so much time to waste that you could go around making all kinds of useless investigations and trials?
A Only once I was given an executive measure. This was in Tatarsk.
Q Just a moment, Witness. Before you proceed, let's classify a term. By "executive measure" you mean the murder of the Jews, is that correct?
A No, executive measures are not the execution of the Jews. These are investigations of some kind of violation of the directives given, That is, generally, an executive measure as contrasted to an informational measure.
Q When you say "executive measure", isn't that always connected with executions?
A Not necessarily. If the investigation shows that the man is innocent, or did not commit a very severe violation, then he is either released or he is imprisoned for a certain time.
Q Continue with your explanation. Continue with your explanation.
A I don't understand the question.
Q You mean you have nothing more to say on the subject?
A I did have something to say, but I don't know what it was.
Mr. FERENCZ: I will come back with some more questions for you then after the noon recess.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 12 December 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Mr. Ferencz. BY MR. FERENCZ: Jews than they were in the Ghetto, or out of the Ghetto, were all shot?
A I didn't get the question. the Ghetto or out of the Ghetto, were all to be killed, and were killed. You also told us that you has conducted an extensive investigation to determine whether the Jews were Partisans, or what they had done. Now the question is, in view of the foot that all Jews were killed simply because of the Fuehrer Order, why was it necessary to have any investigation at all?
A First of all, Mr. Prosecutor, I said that all Jews were outside the Ghetto, not that Jews were inside the Ghetto. That was in Tatarsk. In the second place, I didn't carry out the execution based on the Fuehrer Order, but because of the order given to me by the Chief of Einsatzgruppe-D to make investigations, and to shoot persons or those guilty. were in the Ghetto, or out of the Ghetto, that just because they were Jews they were to be killed under the Fuehrer Order. If that was true, and you told us that it is true, why was it necessary to have any kind of investigation to prove any crimes on the part of the Jews?
A I didn't have the order to carry out the Fuehrer Order, Mr. Prosecutor. It was my order in this special case to stop this mutiny and not to carry out the Fuehrer Order.
Q What mutiny are you referring to?
had left the Ghetto, making their way out by force thus violating the instructions which had been given. tions, or not, and you told us that was the case, that you knew it was the case, why was it necessary in the case of Jews to have any kind of investigation to prove any kind of a crime, if because of the fact that he was a Jew he was to be killed anyway?
A Mr. Prosecutor, at the beginning I said that I made every attempt to evade being forced to have to carry out the Fuehrer Order, because inwardly I objected to and against this measure of killing innocent people. In this case it was not a matter of carrying out the Fuehrer's Order, but this was a violation of the regulations issued by the Security Police, and of orders by the Wehrmacht.
Q I know that witness. But we have this situation. There is an order that all Jews are to be killed, the Einsatzkommandos received the order, and carried it out. Why should Nebe, or any Einsatzcommando leader tell you to conduct an investigation as concerned Jews, and to see whether they were members of the Partisan band, or whether they had violated anything the Wehrmacht directed when they would have been killed simply on the Fuehrer Order. Why was all of that necessary. It does not make sense to me. Can you explain it?
A I can not explain it. I can merely say that I received orders from Nebe to find out what I could, and then to act rigorously, with the sharpest means in the most ruthless manner, that is what he told me.
Q Did Nebe anticipate, do you know, that you would kill all the Jews?
A I didn't get the question. whether the investigation was just a matter of form?
A No, Nebe didn't tell me I could kill all the Jews. Nebe merely said I should go there and investigate the matter, whether it was true what the Mayor had reported, and then I was to act accordingly.
that is the order he gave me.
Q Witness, isn't it true, that Nebe already carried out the Fuehrer Order in other cases? tell you to carry out the Fuehrer Order instead of going through all this useless investigation, which according to you might mean that some Jews might escape the death penalty?
A Well, I don't know why he didn't give me the order. Why he didn't tell me to carry out the Fuehrer Order. He just didn't tell me to do it.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, will you please clear up in his affidavit a matter, because you are right on the very subject, and I don't know whether you now are coming to it, or not, or intend to come to it, of Nebe giving an order to establish an example, as he just said now that Nebe told him to conduct investigations. That is paragraph 4 of the affidavit.
MR. FERENCZ: Will you please explain that, witness?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, that is the affidavit of 2 July, In this affidavit I formulated it in that manner but it is not complete, and, at the time I gave my testimony under psychological pressure, and I was nervous, and, therefore, my testimony was not as complete as when I completed it afterwards.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, proceed, Mr. Ferencz. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q To come back to this situation. Nebe received the Fuehrer Order, and Nebe carried out the Fuehrer Order. That has been established here by several witnesses, and by the documents. Now, we have a situation in Tatarsk where there was a group of Jews, and in accordance with the Fuehrer Order they should all be killed. You told us that they were all killed, whether they were in the Ghetto, or out of the Ghetto, that all Jews were to be killed.
It does not make sense to me that he would then say, go out and make a big investigation; see if you can find out whether they had intimidated the Mayor; find out if they had violated the Wehrmacht regulations; find out if they had contact with Partisans. And on the basis of your findings take such ruthless action that is necessary; why was that all necessary, why did not he just tell you to go and kill all Jews in accordance with the Fuehrer Order, in accordance with everything we have been doing up to now. Can you explain that, please? this limitation really existed, and that, therefore, he didn't give the order to shoot all Jews as mentioned in the Fuehrer Order, buy only those who had not been shot because being fit to work, but now, if they violated regulations, were to be executed just because they had violated the regulations issued by the Security Police and the Wehrmacht.
A That is the only explanation I can give. I don't know why Nebe didn't give me the order to shoot all Jews rigorously, because in that case he would have given me the order to shoot women and children because they were included, buy I didn't do that because I could very well see that this was not necessary; that the mission was not such that I had to carry out the Fuehrer Order, but said, that those persons who had left the Ghetto and those persons who had threatened the Mayor were to be punished, that I had to investigate this matter and to proceed accordingly. Ghetto, whether they had left the Ghetto or whether they didn't leave the Ghetto, were to be killed, and that this was the fact, generally?
A No, I didn't say that of all those who were in the Ghetto. This was not possible, because the Jews were not in the Ghetto any more, not there in the Ghetto in Tatarsk.
Q Were not all Jews to be killed?
A I beg your pardon?
Jews were to be killed? Order was not decisive. didn't make any difference as concerned Jews. The mere fact that they were Jews was sufficient. Isn't that correct? for the purpose of being shot?
AAt the time, Mr. Prosecutor, I certainly didn't think this, or know it.
Q You heard about the Fuehrer Order, had you not?
Q Why do you think they were collecting these Jews. You had an order that all Jews were to be killed, and you put Jews into the Ghetto. Why did you think they were there? then they partly were not killed, they were used for work, every kind of work. the women and children, the old persons and the sick persons?
Q Let's limit our discussion to those under the Fuehrer Order, either in its full context, or as modified, these people were to be killed, is that correct? that correct?
Q Then why did they put the Jews into the Ghettos?
work. into the Ghetto?
A Well, I don't know that. were supposed to be killed by the Einsatzcommandos. Now I ask you, why did they put them into the Ghetto, and you can not figure out the particular answer?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I never had anything to do with this Jewish affair. I never arranged the Ghetto, or set it up. I am not very familiar with this matter; that is why my testimony might have contained contradictions. I don't know exactly which Jews were brought into the Ghetto, and which were not brought into the Ghetto; whether sick people and old people were kept in the Ghetto; or whether they were shot, in whatever manner the policy varried greatly in this matter. I say I don't know. Really, I don't know how this was done. I never had anything to do with bringing Jews into the Ghetto, and shooting of Jews, because of the Fuehrer.
Q How long were you a SS-major on the Eastern front? December 1943, that is two and one-half years. or to hear or learn that Jews were collected in the Ghetto for the purposes of being killed? Jews were in the Ghetto to be assigned for work. unable to find out in all this time that you were a high ranking SS officer, when millions of people were killed by the Einsatzcommandos; you were unable to find out what was happening to these people? Do you expect us to believe that thing, Klingelhoefer?
A Well, I knew that Jews were being shot of course. Of course, I knew that from the Fuehrer Order, and also that some of the Jews were being saved in order to do the work. for the purpose of being killed in accordance with the Fuehrer Order, isn't that a fact?
Q Now, I am asking you, isn't it a fact? Why do you say "probably?" You were there for two and one-half years as a high ranking SS-officer?
Q Didn't you know as a fact that Jews were collected in the Ghettos and killed if they were unable to work? them to work.
Q How about the children?
Q They were put to work, too? were killed? Jewish people fit for work were killed.
Q And that it was what happened generally. Those were the orders, and that is the reason they were brought together, so it would be easier for the Einsatzcommandos to kill them, that is correct, isn't it?
A Well, that can be supposed. I don't know whether it was like that.
Q How was it then? brought Jews back into the Ghetto in order to utilize them for work, and, that later on at the end the Fuehrer Order was and had to be carried out, that is quite possible, and I said I personally had nothing to do with this matter, and didn't know anything about these things which happened.
I didn't bother about it. Purposely, I didn't take any interest in these cases because I felt uncomfortable to talk about that problem.
Q But you do admit that you knew?
A Please? and in the Ghetto were killed in accordance with the Fuehrer Order, not by you, but by others? ren and put them into the Ghetto? them back to the Ghetto, yes. into the Ghetto were going to be killed by some one else, and you took care of the men yourself, that is true, isn't it?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, at the time when I carried out the action, and I brought the women and children back to the Ghetto, I didn't do that with the idea and awareness that these Jews, these women and children were to be shot. That never occurred to me. in the Ghetto, and who were unable to work, were killed in accordance with the Fuehrer Order? inwardly didn't think of it, and didn't expect it, that I brought these women and children into the Ghetto, especially so they could be shot later on. I didn't think of that.
Q You didn't think if for the purpose of having them killed, but you know at the time you shot the male Jews in Tatarsk that you put the children and females into the Ghetto, that they would be killed, or some, and that all of those were killed in the Ghetto who were unable to work, that is correct, isn't it?
Q Is that correct, or is it not correct?
AAs I already said at the time I didn't think of that, Mr. Prosecutor. I can not say anything else.
Q You didn't give it any thought? knew that a modification existed, not to shoot people, because during the action at the time which I knew was carried out based on the Fuehrer Order, the women and children were not shot. I assumed that at the time these Jews were not to be shot, but that perhaps they were going to be subjected to a resettlement at a later time. I believe that was my idea. I never thought that the Fuehrer Order and this final solution should be carried out in such a radical manner. I only learned about it much later.
AAt the moment when I carried out the action in Tatarsk, I didn't have that idea.
Q You told us you knew that all Jews were to be killed? You knew there was a modification later on, that those Jews who were able to work didn't have to be killed. You told us that you knew that all Jews in the Ghettos who were unable to work were killed, and you told us that you took a group of Jewish women and children into a Ghetto. Now are you saying that you did it without giving it any thought; you just put them in there to save them? Ghetto according to general instructions. That was all.
Q Do you know what happened to those women and children?
A Pardom me?
Q Do you know what happened to those women and children?
A When they had been brought back into the Ghetto? I don't know, no.
never heard about them again? of the German, I have this description: "The action in Tatarsk" and it says that the village was combed very systematically, and the Jews were herded together in the market square. Some of them had fled and had to be driven out of the nearby woods."
Q Who carried out that action?
A Pardon me? that the Jews had left the Ghetto, and I had to come out the woods. were beaten when they were herded back to the Ghetto?
A No, Not so far as I know, I didn't see any Jews being beaten. years as a SS-major in the Einsatzgruppe? beaten, certainly not.
Q What happened to the Jews that resisted arrest?
A I beg your pardon?
Q What happened to the Jews tried to resist arrest?
A Well, I don't know. they marched nicely down to the Ghetto. Never resisted, there was not beating, it was all a very nice affair. Is that what you are trying to say? course.
Q Give us some particular cases?
A I can not generalize here. It can, of course, happen, that someone does resist arrest.
Q You ever knew of any case, and you don't know of any case in which the Jews were beaten, generally. Why were they brought together. What was it, that they were herded together in the Market square and driven out of the woods. What does that mean? Nebe and treated in the manner indicated there, just as it is usual during raids, when people are taken out of the forests and houses and the guard make them walk in front of them. I can not explain it in a different manner.