Q Were any of them shot on the way?
A On the way? the market square?
A No. I don't know. Certainly not in Tatarsk. who were able to work were not shot?
A That wasn't my order to look after that - not to shoot those fit for work. My order was that I had to carry out the investigations and put those in the ghetto and not to select people.
Q Didn't you ever tell Noack that he shouldn't shoot those who were able to work? carried out.
A Noack did not have to say anything here. He merely received the order for his action from Nebe. I could not interfere. This was an order by the Fuehrer which had been passed on to him by Nebe. I had no influence whatever on this matter. that only those -- or to save those who were able to work? acted according to the order by the Fuehrer. And he actually did not shoot those suitable for work, according to what he told me. He told me that, at Tatarsk, he once shot twenty Jews unfit for work because at the time this modified order existed.
Q Did you ever discuss this question with Mr. Wartenberg.
A Which question?
who were able to work?
A I did not tell Noack anything to this effect. Noack knew this himself because he was an expert of Jewish affairs. I myself did not know about it. It was Noack who told me about the fact that only Jews unfit for work were to be shot after he had carried out this action in Tatarsk. matter with Mr. Wartenberg during your interrogation?
A Which question? everybody or only kill those who were unable to work? with him. I believe I only made general statements about the anti-Jewish action, I do not remember having gone into details. your recollection. I will read it through in German. Q. "How many men approximately were brought together? A. In Tatarsk all Jews were brought together. However, I insisted on it that if he wanted to shoot these people and had to do it the old people and the sick people were to be shot and the others were not to be shot." Do you remember that now?
A No, I did not say that. I don't know that. statement to the interrogator Wartenberg? because I had no influence on these matters. I had explained to Mr. Wartenberg that I was neither in charge of or had supervision over Noack nor could I give him any instructions.
execution which you had ordered when suddenly you were called away because there were some Jewish women having some dispute with some Russian women, is that correct?
Q What did you do to those Jewish women?
A I did not do anything with these Jewesses. It was like this. The Jewesses wanted to bring back their property into the Ghetto which they had brought out the previous day and the Russian quarreled about their property claiming it was theirs, and I saw to it that the Jewesses got their property back and could take it back into the Ghetto. women to see that the Jewish women got their property back and it was safely taken back into the Ghetto?
A Yes, that's what I said. had ordered all Jews to be killed? this action in the Tatarsk occurred it never occurred to me that these Jewesses were to be shot later on. I did not think of that. I said so before. and you took them back into the Ghetto and you knew there was a general order to kill all Jews and you had been a Kommando leader in an Einsatzgruppe but it never occurred to you that these women might all be shot; is that what you say? objected to all this. I cannot express it differently. It repulsed me. It never occurred to me.
occurred to you that somebody might be killing the Jews, is that what you are trying to tell us, Herr Klingelhoefer?
A I don't get the question. want to kill these Jewish women. If you didn't know it then, you see now in the reports that millions of Jews were killed. You were a commando leader in an Einsatz you were an SS-major, you had heard about the Fuehrer order, and now you say it never occurred to you that these women might be killed. not occur to me, Mr. Prosecutor. Later on, of course , I knew that women and children and all Jews were to be killed, but at that time when I sis this - what should I say - from a humans impulse I acted in that manner and protected the property of the Jews. This was purely a humans idea without thinking about it until later on.
Q You say at that time you didn't know these women were to be killed? When did you first learn of the Fuehrer order? Give us the date as boat you can remember. Dueben during the roll call which Sturmbannfuehrer Rausch carried out and conducted. This roll call took place shortly before we left for the Russian border.
Q That was on what date approximately?
Q 1941? take place? end of September or the beginning of October 1941.
this execution of the Jews and in June you had the order to kill all Jews. What do you mean when you say that you never heard about it, that up until the time of the Tatarsk action you didn't know that all Jews were to be killed? Did you forget it from the time you heard it in June and the time you had to marry it out in September? Nebe in Tatarsk to stop munity and to act severely and to investigate the cases of disobedience and I did not get the order to carry out anti-Jewish action according to the Fuehrer Order. and to act severely. As were discussing this secret of the return of the Jewish property to the jewish women and your taking them back into the Ghetto. I am trying to understand how it is possible for a Kommando leader to prior, to return Jews, goes out of his many to return property to them and to escort them back into the Ghetto where they would later be killed.
A Mr. Prosecutor, first of all I wasn't in charge of a Kommando. I was merely assigned by the Einsatz Group chief and the Einsatz chief did not give me the order to carry out anti-Jewish actions. Ghetto where they had left unlawfully and so I did according to orders. confused and I would like to give you the opportunity to clarify them. You say that you took the property away from the Russians and that you gave it back to these Jewish women in view of the fact that you know that there were orders to execute all the Jews.
Why sis you go to the trouble of giving them back the property? that was the only reason I did this. I did not have any other thoughts. killed, why did you go to the trouble of having investigations to determine whether they were Partisans or had violated Wehrmacht orders?
Q Do you find any sense in such an order. Can you find any justification in giving an order and wasting a lot of time when Jews were going to be shot anyway?
You said all male Jews were found guilty. It might have been a fortunate coincidence. It might have been unfortunate. But you say on investigation all were found guilty. I don't understand why if all Jews were to be killed why anybody should bother with investigations to determine any facts. Can you explain that? of regulations and I said that especially I personally evaded or tried to evade the execution of the Fuehrer order. order. Perhaps there is something in particular that hasn't been brought out but we have - -
THE PRESIDENT: I think you have exhausted this episode pretty thoroughly. Now he has given his explanation whether you accept it or not is up to you. But he said he got these orders, he want there, he investigated them, He knew of the Fuehrer order and does not know why he took the women back when he knew they were going to be killed.
He said all that and I don't think there is any use going over it again.
MR. FARENCZ: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. FARENCZ: make false reports showing the killing of Jews without any indication of investigation?
A It says here because they disobeyed orders. Why other explanations are not mentioned I already explained to the President yesterday - that this is a report based on a verbal report which I made personally to Nebe. He didn't know hoe he formulated this report. Why he wrote it this way I don't know. I did not write the report in that manner. It does not originate from me.
Q How long were you on the Staff of Einsatzgruppe B? middle of September 1941 until the end of October 1941. Then I was in charge of Advanced Kommando Group Staff until 2 December and then finally 25 December 1941 I returned to the Group staff and ever since I have constantly been in the Group Staff.
Q Until when?
Q Therefore we have this as dates: you were a member of Einsatzgruppe B. From the middle of September to the end of October 1941 and from 25 December 1941 until December 1943 - is that correct? two years. of Einsatzgruppe B staff how many executions took place? Approximately?
A I cannot say that. I don't think that executions occurred, in any case I did not hear of any in the staff.
Q During these two years? gruppe B?
A In Einsatzgruppen B in general, yes. Of course. But in the staff itself I did not hear anything of executions. that was not the job of the staff to carry out executions. by the units under the command of Einsatzgruppen B?
A I don't understand that. Units under the command of the staff. What units are you referring to?
A I don't know that. I never had anything to do with that. doing?
A No, I did not hear that. They did their own duty as SS Police. I had to deal with a very special work. I worked quite independently and had no connection at all with the other work of the Einsatzgruppen. staff, who had higher rank than you did?
A That varied very much because people changed. In general, in the staff, apart from the chief himself there was his deputy. That was Obersturmbannfuehrer, Senior Government Councillor. Then there were various departments, this is department chief for personnel matters -
Q What were their ranks?
those two years had a rank higher than your rank in Staff Einsatzgruppen B?
A I can tell you that. In the staff there were mostly the chief, his deputy and the department chiefs. Those were the people who if they had the rank of Sturmbannfuehrer, or major, that was my rank, they had higher ranks because they were department chiefs in the Einsatzgruppen B. Just like the Kommander of the Einsatzgruppen they were all required to have been in charge of an office in the Reich. gruppe B?
Q Think about it. Approximately. It doesn't have to be very exact. 20. Something like that.
Q Naumann commanded all of these officers? various departments, in administration there was an administrative chief. power to order the activities of all the Sonderkommandos as shown on that chart?
A The staff did not have to give any orders. Instructions were given by the chief. responsible for all of the Sonderkommandos and Einsatzkommandos which comprised the Einsatzgruppe B? responsible for his own work and the chief of the Einsatz gruppen Naumann was in charge, to whom all the Kommando leaders were responsible.
was in charge of all Einsatzkommando chiefs but the rest of the staff, namely you, had no responsibility?
A No. The command channels went directly from the Kommando leader to the group leader, who gave his instructions to the Kommando chief. All other - -
Q Didn't the staff in Einsatzgruppe B Headquarters assist him in carrying out his duties or were they just remaining there independantly? military channels of command. The department leaders were subordinate to the chief of the Einsatzgruppen and the members of the staff were experts within that staff who worked on material coming from the Kommando but according to orders of the Einsatzgruppen chief. That is an organization for military and administration purposes. headquarters with Einsatzgruppe B did you ever hear about executions being carried out by units of Einsatzgruppen B. Einsatzkommando carried out these executive tasks, that is, security police tasks were carried out in the course of which executions took place. Of course, I knew that. It was our assignment to guard the security of the territories. communists just because they were Jews, gypsies or Communists? that is what you are referring to, was being carried out by the kommandos.
get out of Einsatzgruppen B during those two years?
A Yes, I tried once. But Naumann would not let me go.
Q Why did you try?
A I did not immediately go to Naumann because I didn't feel comfortable, because I did not like the whole job of Einsatz, that is why I tried but did no succeed. tried to get out of your assignment?
A I did not go directly to Naumann. I was in Berlin and in Berlin talked to a leader of Office VI of the Operations "Zeppelin" and he told me he would try to get me free for Office VI and then he sent a teletype to Naumann which Naumann showed me, and said: "Obersturmbannfuehrer Grefe at the time asked for you but I can't release you. You have to deal with these tasks - I can't do without you." That is what Naumann told me. out of Einsatz Headquarters, did you? it. He would not have released me.
Q How do you know he would not have released you?
A I knew that he would not release me. I knew that quite well because I was a special expert speaking Russian perfectly and knowing the conditions. Therefore he could not do without me. Naumann regarded you as indispensable and didn't want to release you, is that correct, particular task and considered me indispensable.
Q Therefore, you would say, wouldn't you, that Naumann regarded you as indispensable to the successful functioning of Einsatzgruppe B?
A What? functioning of Einsatzgruppe B?
A I don't get the question. interpretor and because I knew Russian conditions. That is why he needed me. operate successfully without you? Is that correct? on me but the department I worked in considered me indispensable but this was not connected with the entire Einsatzgruppen. reports and had nothing to do with killings in any way?
A What?
A No, I was alone in the department. I had no assistance. I was sitting on my own and I evaluated documents and printed material, I interrogated people and talked to them when I wanted to hear something for my extensive reports.
Q. Why did you feel uneasy in that job? It sounds pretty good to me.
A. It was the general impression I had of the entire assignment that depressed me so much.
Q. Were you depressed when you thought about the activities of Einsatzkommandos and Einsatzgruppes when you sitting here in the jail in Nurnberg?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You say you were depressed about all this activity of the Einsatzgruppe. I am asking you, were you depressed when you were here in Nurnberg in the jail and you had plenty of time to think about it?
A. I was depressed, of course, but not only about my work in the East, and about the whole atmosphere there, but in general I was depressed about the collapse of the German Reich and about the things that I heard later on which I did not know anything about before. Those were the things that depressed me particularly.
Q. Did you attempt to commit suicide while you were down here in the jail?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. That was as a result of sending the letter to Mr. Wartenberg. I had such an inward conflict that I no longer realized whether I had acted in the right manner. On the one hand, I was trying to say the truth as far as possible, knowing the catastrophe which had happened and my responsibility for the development of things; on the other hand, I felt that I had to give away here a comrade, a former superior, In this state of excitement and in this conflict I found no way out, and my nerves were in such a bad state that I tried to commit suicide. I thought I could not live honestly this way. That was the reason I tried to commit suicide.
Q. You say, knowing your responsibility for the development of things you tried to commit suicide, is that correct?
A. No, I tried to commit suicide because I had such conflicts that, on the one hand, I surrendered this smuggled note, because I did not want to give somebody else away, but, on the other hand, I felt that I gave a comrade away, and my honor was lost, and the thing upset me so I didn't know what to do.
Q. You did not think you lost your honor when you shot Jews, did you?
A. I shot Jews, Mr. Prosecutor, because during the war
Q. We have gone through all that already. Tell me, did you feel that you lose your honor when you took these Jews out and shot them in the back?
A. No, in that case I acted according to orders to look after the security of the rear Army territory of the German Wehrmacht.
Q. You told us this morning or yesterday that you gave this note which Naumann had slipped to you, you gave it up without reading it because you didn't want to be coerced into telling an untruth, that you were afraid that Naumann was trying to coerce you to say something that wasn't true, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Why should Naumann try to conceal the truth?
A. I thought so, I assumed so at the moment. When I got this note I assumed that Naumann would try to persuade me to camouflage something. That was my immediate reaction to his giving me this secret note in prison.
Q. But why, The question is, do you know of any facts that would lead you to believe that Naumann would attempt to conceal the truth, and for you to be so much convinced of that, that without even reading the note you betrayed your comrade, as you put it? What facts do you know about Naumann which leads you to believe that he is attempting to conceal the truth?
A. I did not quite get the question.
THE PRESIDENT: You did have quite a number of questions thrown in there, Mr. Ferencz.
I think the last one would probably sum up everything.
Q. (By Mr. Ferencz) What facts do you know about Naumann which convinced you that he was attempting to conceal the truth?
A. I do not know any fact from Naumann. This was merely my instinctive reaction because a note was being handed to me. I would not only have treated it in that manner because it came from Naumann, but if it had come from anyone else. I consider a clandestine note which is granted to me in prison, an attempt to persuade me to do something which is not correct.
Q. Naumann testified that he just did that from a comradely attitude.
A. Well, that is true. I can't quite explain it perhaps. That was the one reason why I reacted in that manner and therefore tried to commit suicide, that he perhaps did not want to make me say a lie, but merely wanted to help me. That was the idea why my conscience was so troubled, but instinctively, in the state of excitement, I had acted in that way, and later on when I thought about it, I realized that thus I had perhaps betrayed a comrade and had lost my honor.
Q. You started to tell us this morning what you had written to Mr. Wartenberg, and you told us part of it.
A. Yes.
Q. I am now going to give you the note that you wrote to Mr. Wartenberg, and I am going to ask you to read it out loud to the Tribunal.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a photostatic copy of the note which you sent to Mr. Wartenberg upon receiving the message from Naumann?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Would you please read it slowly and carefully?
A. Yes. "Nurnberg, 4 July, 1947." Addressed to the interrogator, Mr. Wartenberg.
"I am handing over the enclosed note which was given to me secretly by Erich Naumann on Thursday, the 3rd of July, 1947, in the evening hours after the walk. I have not opened it and have no knowledge about the contents. I refuse to have anything to do with things of this sort. Already in peacetime and even more in the course of the war, when observing the measures and their results, I have had doubts about their moral and ethical advocability, doubts which estranged me with ever growing intensity from the atmosphere in which I lived and worked in good trust and in a discipline born of long training. Too late, unfortunately, after the collapse I gained complete insight into the full extent of the horrible blasphemy which was carried out here. Nevertheless, I ask that this stop of mine not be interpreted as an attempt to excuse myself in any way or to ask for good weather. I am fully conscious of the fact that I must bear the consequences completely for my personal attitude and my acts. But, I will not burden my conscience with acts which are in complete contradition to the attitude I have now again achieved. Waldemar Klingelhoefer," signed.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I would now like to offer this statement by the defendant as Prosecutions Exhibit -- I believe the number in 190. I will distribute it at this time to the Tribunal and to the defense council.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be accepted.
MR. FERENCZ: Klingelhoefer, I am going to ask you some questions about this statement and about your attitude concerning the activities which took place in the East. I want you to think about it and read your statement over again during the recess. recess, in order to give the defendant the opportunity to consider his questions carefully.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1515 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDENT: Proceed, Mr. Ferencz.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. Herr Klingelhoefer, in this statement you gave Mr. Wartenberg before attempting suicide, you spoke about the horrible blasphemy which had been carried out; you said there was no attempt being made to excuse yourself, and that you didn't want to burden you conscience with acts which were in complete opposition to the attitude you had again achieved. Do you still have the same attitude you had achieved when you wrote this message?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Do you have any feeling of regret or remorse about what happened under your command in the East?
A. I actually never led the commando in the East, Mr. Prosecutor; I never led a commando. The only commando which I led was the small Advance Commando Group Staff, and whatever was done by it does not cause me to have any remorse. That was just destined for the assignment in Moscow. Everything else I did on order, which I have described and mentioned. And as far as I know, that whatever I did, I did it in a manner that I could not consider as a burdening of my conscience.
Q. Do you have the feeling that you did anything wrong while you were with the Einsatz in the East?
A. No.
Q. And do you still contend that everything you have told us in this courtroom has been ture?
A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge.
MR. FERENCZ: We have no further questions, Your Honor. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. One point I want to clear up. I understood you to say that you knew of 50 who had been executed. Does that constitute the maximum number of d oaths of which you were personally aware--deaths by execution?
A. That is the figure of the executions which I personally knew about. Outside of these 30 Jews and the 3 Jewesses whom I had executed, that is the figure which I personally got to knew about.
Q. Then, in all, you know about 83?
A. Yes.
Q. I wanted to clear that. This affidavit of yours was signed on July 2, 1947?
A. Yes.
Q. Then on August 27, 1947, you made a supplement to the affidavit, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. When you made this supplement which consisted of a correction in the date of the period that you were in charge of a certain commando, why did you not make the other correction of which you now complain?
A. Your honor,it was just on this day when I was called upon to make those corrections by Mr. Wartenberg when I explained to him that after I had now had the time to think matters over,and also pointed out that those various corrections existed that I would like to make those corrections and Mr. Wartenberg told me it would be the best thing if in the case of extensive corrections we would make a new affidavit, and thereupon he explained to me that I should prepare the new affidavit and the facts for it,and he would call me at a later date and then he would accept from me the new and corrected affidavit. That is what he told me. Of course, I visited him with my attorney who heard and listened to all these negotiations. Then Mr. Wartenberg called me on the 17th of September and I gave him the second affidavit.
Q. This affidavit of November 27, was it written up on your own initiative?
A. This second affidavit was made out by me on the basic of the first affidavit, together with the corresponding corrections and additions. Yes, I did that myself. Mr. Wartenberg then read through it and accepted it.
Q. Did you write it out in your own hand?
A. No. I did not write this in my own hand. First, I wrote it down by hand and then my attorney typed it.
Q. This is the one of August 27 -- the one of August 27?
A. Not the corrections. I did not write the corrections. Mr. Wartenberg prepared the corrections and he then filled them in. I was called to see him. you mean the correction of the date, is that what you mean, Your Honor.
A. Yes. The one, it was made up on August 27, was this made on your own initiative?
A. No. I was asked to go to see Mr. Wartenberg because Mr. Wartenberg had determined the mistakes of the first affidavit which I had overlooked.
Q. And that is when you called his attention to these other mistakes, is that what I understand you to say?
A. At this occasion I immediately told Mr. Wartenberg that I was referring to the conversation I had with him about the first affidavit. While pointing out that many developments and conditions as they were described there were not quite according to the truth, and that I new had had the time to think about all these matters thoroughly and that I recalled many things again, and now I would like to make these corrections and additions.
Q. When you signed the affidavit on July 2, 1947, did you at that time believe that the facts which you expressed in that affidavit were correct?
A. I didn't quite understand.
Q. Just a minute. You have explained to me that on August 27, 1947, when you spoke to Mr. Wartenberg you said to him that now that you had had an opportunity to reflect on what you had stated in your affidavit of July 2, things were clearer to you and, therefore, you wished to make some corrections.