bravery and intrepidity that he received a decoration?
Q Do you know that? Do you know that he was promoted from Captain to Major because of his abilities manifested in the field? the fact that he was an interpreter and you saw him when he was repairing his car. von Radetzky got into the car in which I traveled to Lutsk Herr von Radetzky worked with me in Lutsk later and later on in Shitomir. In Lutsk we worked together in seizing enemy documents, and in Shitomir I made reports for Herr von Radetzky.
Q Was he an interpreter all the time he was in Russia?
A That I can not say. I only know what he did prior to his stay in Shitomir. After that I know nothing further. Vorkommando? Herr von Radetzky had been leader of the Vorkommando. This owing to the fact that with the kommando there were three officers in all, one Hauptsturmfuehrer, that was Hauptsturmfuehrer von Radetzky and two Obersturmfuehrers, who in their civilian profession were police officers, and since I was asked during my interrogation who was deputy or kommander of the Advance Kommando and I could not reply to this. I was asked about my opinion concerning this and I said in my opinion Hauptsturmfuehrer von Radetzky could have held that position because he was the senior officer, but after thinking about it carefully afterwards, I must now say that Herr von Radetzky could not have been the commander of the Advance Kommando, because he did not have the necessary training for it concerning police work and could not have had -
Q Did you sign your affidavit voluntarily?
Q Did you swear to it? this statement: "The Vorkommando was headed by three leaders, namely, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Waldemar von Radetzky and two others, whose names I do not remember any more."
That states it pretty emphatically, doesn't it, that he was leader?
A I beg your pardon. I did not quite get the question. that the Vorkommando was headed by von Radetzky. He was one of the three leaders. the seizing of documents....
Q Just a moment. Just a moment. I am asking you whether you made this statement. "The Vorkommando was headed by three leaders, namely, Radetzky and two others." Did you make that statement?
Q Did you make that statement? Yes or no.
Q Did you make that statement?
DR. RATZ: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. Perhaps there is a translation mistake. According to the original of my affidavit of this witness, this witness did not say that three officers were in charge of it, but the witness said that the Vorkommando had three persons who held officers' rank; Herr von Radetzky and two other Obersturmfuehrers are mentioned. It merely says there were three officers there, but it does not say that Radetzky was in charge of it and later on he says that he had the impression that Radetzky was in charge of the Vorkommando.
He merely says he had the impression.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now let's determine now whether this translation is correct or not. I am reading from the English. It very distinctly says that the Vorkommando was headed by three officers of whom Radetzky was one. Mr. Hochwald, can you enlighten us on that?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, if Dr. Ratz will let me have the German -- It says here in the mimeographed copy, "3 Fuehrer-dienstgrade" which would mean in other words, "three officers."
THE PRESIDENT: Three officers?
THE WITNESS: That's right. BY THE PRESIDENT: next sentence you say, "I remember that one evening a conference was held during our stay in Lutsk in the course of which Waldemar von Radetzky as senior leader gave orders to the assembled sub-leaders." Did you say that in your affidavit?
Q Is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Proceed, Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ (Attorney for the defendant von Radetzky):
Q Witness, may I ask you chronologically. You said that as far as you remember on the 23rd of June, 1941, Herr von Radetzky came to the Special Kommando.
Q At the time the Sonderkommando was where? of Herr Radetzky?
Q You then traveled where?
border in Sokal.
Q In Sokal was there an Advance Kommando of SK 4a set up?
Q And where was the Advance Kommando to go?
Q And in this Advance Kommando there were also officers. How many?
Q And was Radetzky also with this Vorkommando? whether Radetzky was commander of the Advance Kommando or not. In your affidavit you said that you had the impression. Please express yourself in a more satisfactory manner as to this. the time, or, rather, that I had the impression at the time that Herr von Radetzky was leader of this Kommando because he held the highest rank as a Hauptsturmfuehrer. Herr von Radetzky in Lutsk dealt with the seizing of enemy documents and I saw him working only in that capacity there and if this sentence about my opinion is in my affidavit this is owing to the fact that the interrogator asked me specifically who was in charge of the Kommando. I could not give a satisfactory answer to this and then I was asked about my opinion, and I answered that one could have had the opinion that Herr von Radetzky was in command of the Kommando just because he held the highest rank. BY THE PRESIDENT: Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando? Advance Kommando because no leader was introduced to us -
Q Just a moment. Just a moment. On August 21, 1947, when you were asked the question you replied at that time, that is, going back to 1941, you were of the impression that Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando. Was that an honest statement by you to Wartenberg? Did you make an honest statement when you said that that was your impression and your opinion?
Q Please don't tell me what you were asked. I am asking you whether this was an honest expression when you said "At that time I had the impression that Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando." Was that an honest statement made by you to Wartenberg? back to 1941, that Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando. That's correct, isn't it? mind, if you have changed it. First let me ask you, have you now changed your mind? afterwards. I did not really know officially who was the head of the Kommando, but I was merely asked about my opinion and I stated this, my opinion honestly, on the 21st of August, but afterwards I thought about it seriously just because I knew nothing officially about this and I gained the conviction that Herr von Radetzky could not have been in charge of the entire Kommando, because he did not have the necessary training.
Q Did Radetzky give you any orders?
A In Lutsk?
Q Did he give anybody in that organization orders? How many were there? About 25 men?
Q Did he give anybody any orders? seizing documents was concerned.....
Q Please answer the question. Did he give anybody any orders? that you were of the opinion that von Radetzky was in charge; you had some fundamental factual reason for it, didn't you? highest rank.
orders were obeyed and for that reason you came to the conclusion that he was in charge of the Vorkommando? to the other two officers. Inasfar as I know, the two other officers gave orders or carried out orders independently in Lutsk.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, may I interpolate here. I just wanted to ask the witness concerning the tasks of the Vorkommando and I think this will show that the Vorkommando as far as its missions were concerned was split up. Hay I put this question?
THE PRESIDENT: Please do. BY DR. RATZ (Attorney for the defendant von Radetzky):
Q Witness, what tasks did the Advance Kommando Lutsk have? had the task in Lutsk to set up quarters and to secure enemy documents.
Q Was anything done in that direction? Who took part in this?
A Concerning this the following was done: In Lutsk, quarters were prepared for the main kommando as well, and then the securing of documents in various buildings of Lutsk was carried out.
Q Did you yourself take part?
Q Were any documents found?
Q In which building did you work on these documents? building in which the billets of the Vorkommando were as well and they were processed there and the evaluation of this material took a long time. It was screened there and put in bundles and later on sent off and, as far as I know, the Wehrmacht, I believe, the CounterIntelligence Department of the Army, sent one or two persons who helped In the screening of the material.
Q Did Herr von Radetzky before this work was started hold a meeting? held a meeting but only a few of the NCO's were present there and not the two other officers. Herr von Radetzky held this discussion with a few NCO's and with a few Ukrainian men who were given to the NCO's to assist later in sifting the documents. gave you the impression that Herr von Radetzky was the leader of the Vorkommando, is that correct?
Q You just said that the two other officers were not present. Do you know why the two other officers were not present during this discussion? profession had nothing to do with seizing documents. In any case, I never saw them do this.
Q How long did the Advance Kommando stay in Lutsk? the seizing of documents and was Herr von Radetzky also busy doing this all the time?
Q When did the main kommando arrive in Lutsk under Blobel? arrived in Lutsk? finished and we were still busy evaluating and sorting it ans we were still compiling it and putting it on lists.
Advance Commando in Lutsk at that time also carried out executions. What do you know about these executions and to what extent did Herr von Radetzky participate? BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What about your affidavit? It says, "I can declare with certainty that executions were carried out in Lutsk." Are you refuting that part of your affidavit also?
Q Well, did executions occur in Lutsk or not?
Q Did executions occur in Lutsk?
Q Why did you just say to Dr. Ratz they did not?
A I only said - I was asked by Herr Dr. Ratz whether the Sonderkomnando was in Lutsk while executions were carried out. I know nothing about that.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I would suggest that this part of the record may be read back. I understand the question put by Dr. Ratz saying, "Do you know anything about executions in Lutsk?" and the witness answered "No, I do not know a thing about executions in Lutsk." I would like that it may be clarified more.
THE PRESIDENT: Miss Arminger, can you read that back for us, please?
COURT REPORTER ARMINGER (Reading):
"Q According to the Report of Events, it is established that the Advance Kommando in Lutsk at that time also carried out executions. What do you know about these executions and to what extent did Herr von Radetzky participate?
A I know nothing about executions in Lutsk."
DIRECT EXAMINATION *- Continued BY DR. RATZ (Attorney for the defendant von Radetzky): under number 4, where he says, "During my presence in Lutsk I did not see any executions, but when some time later in Rowno, we were looking through the papers in the orderly room, I noticed a bundle of about 20 reports and records of interrogations which revealed that in Lutsk and Sokal people had been executed. I would like to ask the witness whether he wanted to say something different just now than what he said in the affidavit.
A No, I want to say nothing different. I am sorry and want to apologize to the Tribunal that I misunderstood Herr Dr. Ratz' question. I understood Dr. Ratz' question to mean that executions were carried out by the Advance Kommando in Lutsk and whether I knew anything about those. I replied to this, no, I knew nothing about then, because in my affidavit of 21 August I said that I only learned from somewritten documents which I happened to find that in Lutsk and Sokal executions had taken place and.... BY THE PRESIDENT: in those two places, is there? Lutsk and Sokal?
A That I can't say. I only came across these documents by chance and I just glanced at them and I saw that in Sokal and Lutsk a few executions had taken place.
Q Well, didn't they carry dates as to when these executions occurred? three minutes.
Q Did they carry dates as to the executions?
Q You had been in Lutsk, hadn't you? occurred in Lutsk?
Q Yes, and you weren't sufficiently interested to learn whether these executions had occurred during the time you were in Lutsk? right to read them. An officer took them away from me saying that this was no concern of mine. prisoners and witnesses?
A I beg your pardon. I did not quite get the question. of prisoners and witnesses?
Q Did von Radetzky ever question prisoners and witnesses? says that the Orderly Room joined the interrogation room and you had the possibility to observe that prisoners and witnesses were being brought in continuously.
A Yes, that was in Shitomir. In Shitomir the interrogation rooms were only separated from the orderly room by a hallway.
Q Did von Radetzky question witnesses and prisoners there?
A No, I know nothing about that. There were interrogating officers particularly for that.
Q Did von Radetzky ever question prisoners and witnesses?
Q You wrote reports for von Radetzky, didn't you?
Q What did these reports consist of previously?
Q Was any reference made to the enemy at all? people and about the industrial and agricultural potential of that country.
Q Any reference made to the fact that Jews were being executed? Ukrainians or Russians.
Q. So you tell us that his reports which you wrote up described agricultural conditions and the mental attitude of the people?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the reports mention too discussions of the fact that people were going to the theater, enjoying themselves in the theater?
A. I cannot give you any details about that any more.
Q. Were the theaters in operation during that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have anything in the reports about the theaters?
A. Yes, I think it was mentioned some time that we took care of Ukrainian cultural matters that the theaters were open again for the indigenous population.
Q. Were you in Charkov?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you there at the time that the people were starving?
A. Yes, I know that during that time --
Q. Yes, and were the theatres operating while 300,000 people were starving?
A. Whether the theatres were open in Charkov for the indigenous people I do not know.
Q. You mean the theatres which were operated for the soldiers for the German Army only, is that what you have been talking about?
A. In Charkov now and then performances for the occupation troops were given, but they were limited most of the time I was in Charkov.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment -- red light.
A. (Continued) As far as I know during my time in Charkow the front was so near that we were always prepared for alarms and therefore very few performances were even given for the occupation forces.
Q. Well, generally, you were in a war zone, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't want to tell us that theatres were operating for the civilian population in this war zone?
A. This concerns only the time in Shitomir in 1941 and the theatres had already been opened for the civilian population.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed Dr. Ratz. Well, let's have our recess now.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, I shall come back once more to the remark in your affidavit that in Rowno you saw a package of 20 files and records about interrogations from which you gathered that in Luck and Sokal people were executed. You said that you had just glanced at the reports. Could you, when looking at them superficially, determine whether the reports and records were made out by Radetsky?
A. No, I could not see the signatures at that moment.
Q. Could you see from the handwriting or anything else that Radetsky had participated in making out these reports?
A. No I could not. They had been typed and only because I got to see them accidentally I just glanced at them and I saw from their contents that executions had taken place.
Q. I now come back to Luck in point of time. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you say that you glanced at these reports very casually and you couldn't even tell the dates of the executions. How can you tell whether Radetsky had made the reports or not?
A. I said that I could not decipher whether Radetsky had handled these matters or not.
Q. Very well, I misunderstood you. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. You said that in Luck the Main Kommando arrived and that you had continued with the job of seizing documents. How long did you take and did you proceed afterwards?
A. The work on the documents took until the Kommando was ordered to move on to Rowno.
Q. Then a new Advance Kommando was formed and sent to Rowno?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Radetsky in this new Advance Kommando?
A. I can no longer say that today but it is possible.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Q. But you yourself were with this Advance Kommando?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did this Advance Kommando do in Rowno?
A. This Advance Kommando in Rowno had the same job as the one in Luck, namely, to set up quarters and to safeguard documents.
Q. What else happened in Rowno?
A. After several days after the Main Kommando had arrived, or a short time before it arrived in Rowno, another Advance Kommando was sent to Shitomir.
Q. Was Radetsky with the Advance Kommando to Shitomir?
A. I cannot say exactly because I was not with this Kommando.
Q. Where were you?
A. I continued to stay in Rowno until the Main Kommando proceeded to Shitomir.
Q. When you arrived in Shitomir with the Main Kommando did you then see Radetsky?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what did Radetsky do in Shitomir?
A. In my opinion the main task of Radetsky in Shitomir was to make out reports about agriculture and to make out cultural reports.
Q. Did you yourself participate in making out these reports?
A. Yes.
Q. In what form?
A. Herr von Radetsky often in the late afternoons and in the evening dictated these reports to me and I typed them up.
Q. Do you know what Radetsky did in the mornings and in the afternoons?
A. Yes, to the occasional question where Herr Radetsky got the material for these extensive reports he answered me that he got these through discussions with indigenous authorities.
Q. Did the writing of the reports in Shitomir take up the full time of Radetsky or didn't it?
A. In my opinion it could have taken up all of Radetsky's time because these reports were very extensive so that I suppose that the getting of the material for them took up a lot of time.
Q. How long did this activity in Shitomir last?
A. My activity for Herr von Radetsky lasted for about three weeks in Shitomir.
Q. And what happened after those three weeks?
A. After those three weeks I lost track of Herr von Radetsky.
Q. Do you know where he went?
A. As I have already mentioned I heard that Herr von Radetsky became liaison officer to the Army Headquarters.
Q. When did that happen according to your recollection?
A. That must have been at the end of July or the beginning of August 1941.
Q. Witness, according to the documents submitted by the Prosecution executions also took place in Shitomir, executions of Jews, saboteurs, and political functionaries. Do you know whether Radetsky had participated in such executions in Shitomir?
A. I know nothing about it.
Q. Since you collaborated closely together with Radetsky in Shitomir wouldn't you have had to know if Radetsky had participated in this?
A. In my opinion in these three weeks during which I wrote reports for Herr von Radetsky I would have had to notice, or perhaps, Herr von Radetsky would have said something about the fact that he had participated in such matters.
Q. Did you see Herr von Radetsky later on?
A. After I lost track of Herr von Radetsky in Shitomir I only saw him once more, that was in March 1942 in Charkow.
Q. What did Herr von Radetsky do at that time?
A. I don't know. For some reason Herr von Radetsky came into the orderly room and said "hello" to me and asked me if I was still with the Kommando.
Q. You were then in the orderly room?
A. Yes.
Q. Would it have had to come to your knowledge and did it come to your knowledge if Herr von Radetsky had been active as the commander of Teilkommando or deputy of Blobel?
A. May I ask at what time?
Q. This is the entire period during which you were active in the orderly room of Special Kommando 4a.
A. As I have already mentioned during the entire activity with Special Kommando 4a no deputy for the commander was ever introduced, at least not in my presence. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Dr. Ratz, you have asked him whether he could have known whether von Radetsky had ever deputized for the commander, the commanding officer, and he answers that he knows there was no deputy. He told us that for a period of a year or so he did not see von Radetsky. How does he know what von Radetsky was doing when he wasn't within his sight?
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I asked this question because Radetsky was still a member of Special Kommando 4a and even if Radesky was not present at that place he still belonged to Special Kommando 4a so that the men in the orderly room would have to know where the officer von Radetsky is, or what he was doing.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What was your business in the orderly room, witness?
A. In Charkow I handled the mail.
Q. Well, you told us about Charkow. Generally what was your job in the orderly room? What did you do?
A. I took care of the letters, registered incoming mail and took care of the mail.
Q. That was the extent of your activities.
A. Yes.
Q. Who was the commanding officer?
A. The Kommando leader of the Main Kommando was Blobel.
Q. Did you have daily conferences with Blobel?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you what he was going to do and what he had done?
A. No.
Q. Did you know of the executions which were being performed by the Kommando?
A. No, outside of those already mentioned of which I got knowledge through the records which - found in Rowno by accident.
Q. So it was only by this sheer accident that you learned about two executions?
A. Yes.
Q. You know that there were many other executions, don't you?
A. Of mass executions I heard nothing during my activity.
Q. But you can assume that this Kommando performed many other executions can't you?