Q. Did they make any verbal protest, was there any shouting?
A. No.
Q. When they reached the ground my understanding is that then they were relieved of their money and valuables, is that correct?
A. As far as the people complied with the order to give up their valuables, yes, these things were collected, but they were not forced to give up anything.
Q. Was their outer clothing collected at this time, overcoats and shoes?
A. I know nothing about shoes, out coats were also taken away, overcoats.
Q. Was their suit or their outer clothing, besides clothing -- in other words, witness, were they stripped down to their underwear?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, no more than their overcoats or furs were taken away, otherwise nothing.
Q. Now long after they were relieved of their valuables and their outer clothing or their overcoats before they were ordered to the anti-tank ditch, how much time elapsed?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, this period of time was very brief, and I would say that it wasn't even five minutes.
Q. How were these gypsies placed in the tank-ditch, were they kneeling or were they standing or were they lying down?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have to draw your attention to an unfortunate phrase in the affidavit. There it also says, "in the anti-tank ditch", under No. 6. I must have overlooked this when I signed it. In any case, it isn't correct. The people that were to be shot were standing at the edge of this anti-tank ditch and were shot there.
Q. Did they face the execution squad or were they shot in the back?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, they were lined up with their faces turned away. During the execution which I witnessed myself it happened that some of the people to De shot on their own turned their faces towards the execution kommando and had themselves shot this way in a very courageous way.
Q. Mr. Schubert, I believe you testified that General Ohlendorf wanted these people executed in the most humane manner possible. I now ask you were mercy shots administered to those who were not killed instantly?
A. I did not witness, or I was not able to witness such a procedure. The execution which I saw, or during this execution I did not see that such mercy shots had to be fired. The persons were dead.
Q. Now, after these people were shot, did you walk over and view the anti-tank ditch, the bottom of the antitank ditch?
A. I saw this anti-tank ditch, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, your question presupposes that as they were shot they fell into the ditch.
MR. WALTON: He said so, your Honor, they were shot on the edge.
THE PRESIDENT: On the edge, out develop then that they actually fell into the ditch.
MR. WALTON: I am sorry. I reached that conclusion.
Q. (By Mr. Walton). I believe you testified a few moments ago that these people were lined up on the edge of this anti-tank ditch and they were facing away from the execution squad. Some of them turned and were shot then. Now, where did the bodies fall after they were shot?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, these bodies dripped into this ditch.
Q. Now then, the question which I asked you was, did you ever view this anti-tank ditch or did you yourself ever stand and look down into the anti-tank ditch after these executions were performed?
A. In this case, yes, I did.
Q. Did you see whether or not any of the people lying there moved or seemed to be still alive?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't See that.
Q. It would have been apparent to you when you stood there on the edge of that ditch if someone had moved, would it not?
A. Oh, yes, certainly.
Q. Well, your inspection confirmed the fact to you that these people were dead in that ditch; everyone was killed outright; there was no one allowed to suffer, is that correct?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I had no cause to believe that such a thing happened.
Q. Now, Mr. Schubert, whose task was it to bury these people?
A. I did not witness that procedure out according to what I heard about it, members of the execution kommando had to fill in this anti-tank ditch with earth after the execution.
Q. Now, let's go back to the money, valuables-
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, while you are on that subject, before you proceed to the next one, would you find Out if anyone was assigned to determine that desth had been instantaneous, that the victims prior to being buried were actually dead?
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Walton). Mr. Schubert, did you know whether or not the staff phusician was present, Dr. Schnapwagner, was he present at this execution?
A. Not at my time, no. Whether he was there otherwise I cannot say.
officer or enlisted man had the task to determine whether those people lying on the bottom of that ditch were dead?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, this was the job of the Officer in charge of the execution squad. attached to Einsatzgruppe D? because there were several execution squads who relieved each other. BY THE PRESIDENT: executees were dead, did he get down into the ditch or merely view from above? ditch, but certainly he convinced himself whether these people were actually dead according to his conviction. It was only a matter of determining whether a person actually was not killed and thus was still moving in order to giv e him a coup de grace then.
Q How big was the ditch? that a person was alive and yet seemed dead, wasn't it? of the manner in which the execution was carried out, that is, it was fired from a relatively short distance of five to six meters, and thus the result could only be fatal; it was a matter of course for the officer that if the man who had shot had really hit the person to be executed, that person was really dead.
aimed badly and as a result the victim received only a shock, he could have been knocked unconscious with the bullet but not yet actually be dead so that to the casual observer he would seem to be dead but in fact his heart was still beating?
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. WALTON:
Q Now, Mr. Schubert, coming back to the point where the money and the valuables and the outer clothing were collected from these people, was an officer or an enlisted men in charge of this detail? officer who supervised these matters at the place.
Q Do you know his name?
Q Now, you say this was in December, 1941. The weather was quite cold, wasn't it?
A Mr. Prosecutor, in the Crimea it never really gets cold as far as our concept of cold is concerned, but I do recall that the temperature was a few degrees above zero at that time. (That is probably Centigrade.)
THE PRESIDENT: Just one more question please, on the matter of the execution. Did the executors aim at the head, was that the vital point, the back of the head, or at a point in the back that the bullet would penetrate through to the heart?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I merely saw that the people aimed at the head. Q (By Mr. Walton) Mr. Schubert, how soon after the Einsatzgruppe D for transshipment to Berlin?
exclusively valuables. Certainly they got there on the same reached Einsatzgruppe D headquarters?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I merely know that the Einsatz transshipment to Berlin?
Q His name was Ulrich?
valuables?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. As far as I know they only were keep away unauthorized persons out at the execution site?
A I can't really estimate that, but I would say that places were people walked and drove
A This entire terrain, Mr. Prosecutor, was bordered on one side by the road from Simferopol to Karasubasar. That was really the only road. Beyond that there were same field paths which branched off and which had to be blocked off. The traffic was re-routed via another road quite a distance away from this place. did you visit these guard posts to see that these approaches were blocked off? off guards. I don't think I missed any one of them. were they not? Einsatzkommando llb?
A I cannot exclude this possibility, but I don't know with certainty. I don't remember the various individuals.
Q I don't mean that, but they were not exclusively the police company?
A Certainly not, Mr. Prosecutor. There were also members of the field police which had been furnished by the Army.
Q Now, Was Dr. Braune at the Site of this execution at any time you were there?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. the site Of the execution? the way back to the building of the group staff I passed by a large number of guards that were blocking off the area before I actually returned to headquarters.
see how near finished this action was? shortly to see whether things had been completed there or if they hadn't, that things were carried out according to orders there.
Q All right. Then you left the execution Site and you proceeded past this road block on your way book to view once more the number of people still to be executed, still to be loaded on to trucks, was that your action? were any persons left there to be loaded, and when I saw that there were some more I watched them for a short time in order to be certain that these matters were carried out as ordered.
Q What I want is the answer to my question. You left the actual execution site, drove in your car by the roadblock, and then went on to the loading site again. That is the action you took after you saw these fifteen or twenty people shot?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Yes. Now then, Mr. Schubert, after you had determined that the loading was still going on properly, where did you go When you left the loading site for the second time? arrival?
Q Was Seibert there?
A Herr Seibert was not there at all. He was on furlough.
Q He hadn't come in as yet? did you report to General Ohlendorf? think I can say with certainty that I saw him the day during the late afternoon and talked to him. Ohlendorf orally, or did you make a written report? talked about or discuss the facts of this execution with Seibert on his return shortly after? I discussed with Herr Ohlendorf, yes. As far as Seibert is concerned I don't think I spoke to him about them not even after he returned.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, it is twelve-thirty. Would you want to suspend?
MR. WALTON: Yes.
DR. WISMANN: Dr. Wismann, assistant for Dr. Schwarz for the defendant Joost.
Your Honor, Mr. Barr of the interrogation branch has expressed the desire to have the defendant Joost excused this afternoon - or rather to interrogate the defendant Joost in the presence of the defense this afternoon. Therefore, I would ask the Tribunal to excuse the defendant Joost from this afternoon's session and to see to it that he be sent to Room 57 until three o'Clock.
THE PRESIDENT: In accordance with the request made, o'clock this afternoon.
The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
( The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 6 January 1948. )
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in Session.
Dr. ULMER (Attorney for the Defendant SIX):
THE PRESIDENT: In room 55?
DR. ULMER: Tomorrow I would like to have the Defendant
THE PRESIDENT: I understood it was Room 57 in which
DR. ULMER: 57 is the entrance and 55 is the room
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Defendant Six will be BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Mr. Schubert, I was particularly interested in stated that there was no disorder.
Also in answer to the President's question, if my memory is correct, you stated was in store for them.
Am I correct so far?
A. May I have the last sentence again, please?
Q. Certainly. I believe you stated in answer to a not know at that time what their ultimate fate would be.
Am I correct in that?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I replied to your question, whether of these people and I replied to this, "no". The president that they were going to be shot.
To this question I re plied "no" again, because at that time the people did not yet know the end.
I saw no disorder, therefore.
Q. Did these people hold any conversations with their around?
A. It certainly happened that various people talked
Q. And no one of the German personnel told them at the loading site where they were going, did they?
A. Where they were going to be sent to, they were not
Q. Now, was there any disorder that you could see when the trucks arrived at the execution site?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, in order to be quite correct here occurred, this never happened.
Of course, when the people
Q. Was there any weeping and lamentation among the women and children?
A. During my time I saw neither women nor children, really came about, no real disorder.
I would like to say, how calm it was.
It was almost too calm. It was frightening
Q. None of these men attempted to escape by leaping to the ground and running when they were unloaded, did they?
A. I did not see anything of the kind, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Now, was it known to you the reason why these people were being executed?
A. I did not know why the individuals were being ex ecuted.
It is possible that there were persons among them
Q. Did you ever see a written report on this total of business which came from Kommando 11 B?
A. No, Mr, Prosecutor. I would like to point out something here, if I may.
Today you only talked about gypsies, I think.
In my affidavit I said, or, rather, Mr. Wartenberg worded it, "Russians and Jews who" -- originally it said "member of other nationalities."
This wording seemed rather general to me and I asked Mr. Wartenberg to replace by "Russians and Jews" but surely there were gypsies among them as well.
perhaps even the majority of them.
Q. Then the change should be instead of "gypsies", "Russians, Jews, and Gypsies"?
A. One could add there "gypsies". That would make it quite correct.
Q. Do you know whether or not this instance ever appeared in one of Seibert's reprts to Berlin?
A. I do not remember it and consider it quite impossible.
Q Well, weren't executions reported to Berlin? period.
Q Yes, but you misunderstood my question. Did you ever see a written report of this total of 700 to 800 Russians, Jews, and Gypsies?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q And you don't know of your own knowledge whether this same total was included in one of Seibert's reports or not? I cannot say that any more. the total number of executions performed for the month of December, wasn't it? That is quite possible. that same day you met Dr. Braune in the building in which the Head_ quarters of Einsatzgruppe D was and also the Headquarters of Einsatzkommando 11B were.
Q Did you have any discussion with Dr. Braune about this matter?
A I do not remember any definite discussions, Mr. Prosecutor. I believe that I remember correctly that I saw Dr. Braune during a discussion with Mr. Ohlendorf.
Q Did he make any comments on your report to General Ohlendorf?
Q He listened to what you had to say, though?
A Mr. Prosecutor, however hard I try, I cannot tell you whether Dr. Braune, when I described the events I had seen to Herr Ohlendorf, whether he was present then or whether I saw him after I had reported to Herr Ohlendorf. I cannot tell you that now. he make?
much to be said about it. I think the attitude of my chief at the time me to him, inasfar as no objections could be raised.
These things
Q Did he tell you that you had done a good job?
A He did not prasie me at all. Mr. Prosecutor. He did not tell , me anything else either, that he was satisfied with me.
Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Now, Mr. Schubert, let's turn to Document Book III-D, on page 1, both in the German and the English, Exhibit 148.
Now I direct your partiu German text.
Indicate when you have found your place.
did they not?
A I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, you are referring to the explanation which starts "The former Obersturmfuhrer Heinz Schubert."
Q Now I ask you, didn't your duties include the distribution of official mail when you received it?
Q Did you open all official mail?
A I certainly cannot say, " all of it," Mr. Prosecutor, but I to see what it contained so that you would know to what person it would have to be delivered for the necessary action?
or, if he was absent, it was given to his deputy in the staff, Herr Seibert. Department III matters? because Herr Seibert was in charge of the entire reporting to the Army as well. I cannot limit this to his work as Chief III. Certainly. he also received other reports. absent, this official mail went to the desk of Mr. Seibert for action. Did this mail include orders from the RSHA in Berlin?
Q Did it also include orders from the 11th Army?
Q Now did Mr. Seibert over transmit these orders from either two sources to the kommandos?
A I know nothing about that, Mr. Prosecutor. I don't know any specific case. according to this affidavit, which is now before you of General Ohlendorf, you took care of the registery so that I assume from this affidavit and from other facts you have testified to that you registered outgoing mail as well as incoming mail, am I not correct in that assumption?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. ion of at least a short or a sentence description of what the contents were and where it was going?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the outgoing mail in the office was dealt with in the some manner as the incoming mail, which was entered in the mail diary in form ofa brief summary, but now after more than six years I am
Q No, I didn't ask you for a specific case. What I want to know desk of Mr. Seibert, if Mr. Seibert took action or if it was necessary of command, wouldn't he forward those letters and wouldn't you register the outgoing mail forwarding those orders to the kommando?
DR. GAWLIK (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANTS NAUMAN AND SEIBERT): Your Honor, I,object to this question.
The witness has already answered to the question, that he does not know.
The witness has no sufficient knowledge on this.
Anything he might say now would be assumptions, or he would just gess.
If the witness does not know, he cannot answer
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, and "I don't know answer" does not exclude inquiry and probing.
That is the purpose of cross-examination.
one could close the door on cross-examination by merely saying, "I don't know."
The cross-examiner has the right to quizz to determine if ible in order to ascertain whether the defendant's answer of ignorance
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, I realize that, Your Honor. In that case the evidence, but he is only repeating his question.
It is the same question he has already put and the witness has answered, "I don't know."
THE PRESIDENT: That is what Mr. Walton is trying to do, I presume.
MR. WALTON: Your Honor, shall I refresh your memory. The answer he could remember no specific instances.
My following question was office.
I am not interested in knowing what these orders to these kommandos contained or the details of it. I merely asked this witness and I think I am entitled to an answer.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, put the specific question now and Dr. Gawlik will have the opportunity to object, Witness, please do not answer this question until you observe whether Dr. Gawlik wishes to interpose an objection.