9The Tribunal reconvened at 1400 hours)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT. Any further examination of the defendant Naumann? If not he will return to the defendant's dock.
DR. GAWLIK (for the defendant Seibert): Your Honor, for the time being I have concluded my introduction of evidence in the case of Naumann. However, I reserve the right to introduce other evidence at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have in mind witnesses, or documents, Dr. Gawlik?
DR. GAWLIK: Only documents, your Honor, that is all.
THE PRESIDENT: That right will be reserved.
(The witness was excused)
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for defendant Schulz?
DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I would like to make an announcement on behalf of the Prosecution. By order of the Tribunal dated 29 September the witness Haennecke was declared a prosecution witness. In the meantime, the Prosecution has finished its interrogation of the witness Haennecke. Defense counsel for defendant Schulz requests Haennecke as a defense witness. There is no objection on the part of the Prosecution that Defense counsel call Haennecke as a defense witness. Moreover, the Prosecution would like to reserve the right to introduce an affidavit of said witness at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: Your statement is self-explanatory and needs no comment.
DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Thank you, your Honor.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: (for the defendant Schulz): Your Honor, before I may call the witness for the defendant Schulz to the witness stand, I would like to make a short statement.
I had a conversation with the defendant concerning the witness Haennecke and we finally agreed not to call Haennecke as a witness a I have an affidavit which I will introduce at a later date. However, on the 2nd of October of this year I made a written application to this Tribunal to place certain witnesses at my disposal whose names we re mentioned on that list. So far, with the exception of the witness Haennecke, I have heard nothing at all of the witnesses. That is the reason why I would refer again to that application and ask the Tribunal kindly to comply with my request so that I can possibly, at a later date, call in those witnesses and subject them to our direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please indicate the names of those witnesses?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: At the time I had requested the witnesses: Reinhold Braeder, Alfred Faust, Dr. Lauer, Dr. Ogilwi, Alfred Schwarting, Dr. Joseph Steiner and Hans Wanninger? your Honors. Approximately 14 days ago I gave my Document Book I for Translation, So far I have not been able to receive a single copy in English. I only have copies in German. Therefore, it is not possible for me to introduce those documents, in particular, during the examination of the witness. I would appreciate it if this Tribunal would give me an opportunity of introducing those documents at a later date. Ana an additional fact is, that for the short period of time which was placed at my disposal I have not received all affidavits which I intend to introduce. This is due to the fact that the mail service is rather slow and a few affidavits are still to be expected from Austria.
I would therefore, appreciate it if the Tribunal would take notice of these matters as well.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal, of course, will allow you to present those affidavits and those documents when they are available and ready for presentation.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Then I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would order that the defendant Schulz be brought to the witness stand as a witness in his own behalf.
ERWIN SCHULZ; a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SPAIGHT: Raise your right hand and repeat after me: will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE SPAIGHT: You may be seated. BY DR. DURCHHOLZ: full name and the details about you? November 1900 in Berlin. My last place of service was Salzburg in Austria, where I also lived. studies, and your professional background, witness? of the Koclnische Gymnasium in Berlin. I remained there without interruption until "Unter Prima" that is until I was 17. On the 11th of April 1918 -- I was 17 at that time With that I interrupted my studies. After having received my infantry basic training in the autumn of 1918 I was transferred to the Field Recruit Depot of the Fifth Guard Infantry Division in France.
Due to the Armistice of the 9th of November 1918 I was no longer used for front line assignment. I participated in the retreats from France towards Germany, and early in 1919 I was discharged from the Army as a simple private. served in the first World War did you receive any decorations?
A No, I didn't, In 1934 - that was the only time I received the general modal which was issued to all participants of the first World War. 1919, witness?
A I returned to my old school class. That is to say, I returned to the Cologne Gymnasium in Berlin and towards the end of 1919 I graduated. That was the examination for veterans of the first World War. finished that school?
A It was my intention to become a physician. However, I could not possibly carry out my plan to study medicine because my father did not have the means to pay for the expenses involved in such a study. My intent to carry out those particular studies in the medical training of the Army did not succeed due to the collapse of the German Army at the time and the dissolution of the German army. I would have chosen that way as might have been suggested to me to do because within the framework of that training the expenses would, of course, be borne by the Army. On one condition, however namely, that after I would have completed my examination I would have had to join the army for a period of eight years in the medical service.
have enough money at his disposal to enable you to study medicine. Would you like to tell us briefly what your father's profession was? in Altmark. As a child already, when he was very young, he became an orphan. When he was 18 he volunteerd into the Army and, to be exact, it was the same regiment in which I later served. My father did service there for approximately 12 years, and he thus gained access to a position as an official of the State in the civil service. My father first joined the Berlin police, but after a comparatively short time he was called in by the Berlin magistrate for his extraordinary services in the police. He was rather young at the time -- that was in 1902 -- when he was placed in charge of the administration in the Waterworks at Lichtenberg, which was part of the Berlin Hamburg Works and he remained there until he was released and received a pension due to retirement in 1924.
At the end he was administration inspector. My father explained low official.
My mother also did not have a fortune My mother was of four became a half-orphan.
As the pension which my grandmother
Q. Now , witness, after having deviated from the normal now to our professional background.
What was the profession you had chosen under the circumstances?
A. As both of my parents had a very severe childhood behind them, and a very severe life altogether, they had make it their task to have me study.
Considering conditions in 1919, after the reasons of convenience, to choose the study of law.
Due to this a selection of a professional or other career later on.
That is examination.
At the end of the second term the first signs of in flation could be noticed easily.
My father lost all the money he
Q. Now, witness, I come now to your studies for the career as a police officer.
What did you do to get that job?
A. Before I answer that question, Mr. Counsel, may I state that I personally helped along with my own upkeep.
I worked as a simple clerk in the bookkeeping department of the Dresdner bank in Berlin.
In 1923 I went to Hamburg with the intention to continuing my studies of law as a student I was employed in an auditing department, but the inflation, however, had set in in the meantime, and the devaluation of money made it absolutely impossible for me to save up any money. Unfortunately at the time we had to live from hand to mouth in the worst sense of the saying. Through a friend of mine I found out that the Bremen Police were looking for police officers. Again led by the career of my father, I decided to apply there for a job, and particularly since I had all the necessary qualifications for such a job, and, at the same time, I hoped to have lots of time while I was there to continue studying in order to carry on from those two terms which I had mentioned before. I received my order of inscription after I had been there, and on the termination of my notice, the 5 November 1923, I joined the "Schutzpolizei", the protective police in Bremen.
Q. In what capacity did you do it. Were you in an official position, in a position of a civil servant, or were you bound by a contract?
A. I became apolice official , in other words, I became an official according to the German code for officials. After two years, approximately, I received a so-called citizenship of Bremen. I also received a document to prove that.
Q. What was your activity then, and your further training with the police, witness?
A. As I had the qualification of having served in the army I became a police sergeant. As police sergeant I had one simple advantage, which was to be able to jump some of the prescribed number of courses. However, as a police sergeant, according to directives prescribed by law, I had to go through some courses, and finally passes an examination before I became an officer; the same as applied to all the other officials. On 1 March 1924, I became a T/5. On 17 May 1924 I became a sergeant.
On 1 February 1925, after having completed the staff sergeant examination, I became a staff sergeant. On 12 April 1924, after I passed another examination, I became official code instructor which is about the same as staff sergeant. On 1 July 1925, I became a full sergeant, and the same year I passed my officer's examination. It was on 1 August 1926 that I became a Lieutenant, what we call in German Zugmachtmeister. During all these phases of my development I was put through ail the branches of the police departments, and trained in all those branches, I served in the police service as "commissarischer" lieutenant and I went through special guard duty with cur patrol, and so on, and I also worked with the traffic police for a while. Then after that there was a special training in the mounted police; then on the military motor patrols, and in the identification department.
Q. I understand that after you passed your examination on 1 august you became an officer. Why did it take so long, witness?
A. The reason for that is that at the time those members of the Army and the police were under the control of the Entente Commission; agencies which had been prescribed by the Entente Commission could not be circumvented in any way. As the Bremen police corps was comparatively young, and as no vacancy could be expected very soon, a special commission was granted by the Entente Committee to two comrades of mine and myself, and we finally became what I referred to before when speaking of the KommisarLieutenant, which stands for a lieutenant with a special commission. This commission became effective on 1 August 1926; a full commission officer's position could only start on 1 November 1927.
Q. Due to thatposition as a police lieutenant did your field of activity change in any way?
A. Generally speaking, there was hardly any change. I remained in the Wachbereitschaft, within the service, that is to say, I was working in the traffic division of the service, and also in the police service.
By special request I also went through the criminal police branch, and in order to increase my knowledge within the field of police work within that assignment. In 1928 I was transferred to the Police School in Bremen, and in the first year of my activity in the Police School in Bremen I took over the training of the use of weapons, and in the second year of my activity in the police school, I was assigned as teacher in police matters. They had special classes for police training of non-commissioned officers.
Q. During that period of time did you have a political activity, or anything of that kind?
A. No. I was not active in any political way. Political activities were discarded by me anyway, as I was at all times of the opinion that a civil servant is a servant of the State and not a servant of a party. I also always complied with the principle during the entire time of my activity. A political attitude also was discarded by me, because the commander of the Protective Police in Bremen, General Gaspari, had stated in hiw own free way that his officers werenot to join any party, nor were they to represent one of the parties in public in any way. After that I denounced any political activity. After that I was transferred to the Political Police in Bremen, that is, the end of 1930. The Political Police of Bremen was called the Central Police Office.
Q. You stated, witness, that you were not active in any way in political matters, nor did you have any political attitude, how was it, witness, that you were then transferred to the political police?
A. My transfer to the Political police took place because one of the special vacancies was created for a special expert, and I was theone who had been assigned to that duty, and I went down there. In any case, political points of view were entirely out of question for me when I was transferred there, and they could not possibly be considered because the Political Police had nothing whatsoever to do with politics directly; their activity waslimited to serving all political parties, regardless of what kind of parties they were.
It was decided after my transfer to the Central Police Office was made, as a matter of fact, that I was not to become a member of any party, nor was I permitted to be a member of any party.
Q. Who was the man in charge of the Political Police, and who was that police officer subordinate to?
A. The man in charge of that agency was Police Captain Kruse. The agency itself was in direct service with the Division of Police called the Senatory. (interruption).
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
THE WITNESS: The Police Senatory in Bremen is approximately the same as a Minister of interior, in other countries. It is a term used within the structure of the Police Division, and it is approximately the same as it is today. Bremen is a City-State, and with the official name of "Free Trade City of Bremen." BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Can you tell us what political group this Police Captain belonged to?
A. then I joined the Political Police Senator Deichmann was the police officer. Senator Deichmann was a member of the SPD, the then political party of Germany. His successor became Senator von Sprecklesen. Idon't remember the exact date when this occurred, but according to my recollection he was a member of the German People's Party.
Herr Kaisen of Bremen was also a member of the Senate. He is the present Senator in Bremen. organized, what was the structure of the Political Police at the time? different than all other branches. As I stated before, the manager was a police captain. That police branch was subdivided into two sub-divisions, and they were assigned the Roman number I, and the Roman number II. Of these two sub-divisions, the sub-division Roman number I dealt with the entire activity of the political parties. Subdivision Roman II were the Intelligence Sub-division, what is to say, for matters in connection with high treason. That sub-division was staffed almost entirely with members of the Protective Police branch - the Schultzpelizei. The Criminal investigation Department had also been assigned to this department dealing with executive matters, to take care of interrogations and investigations.
Q How long were you a member of the Political Police. How long were you avice there? whatsoever from 1930 to 1939.
Q Now we come to 1933, witness. How did the incidents of that year influence your office and agency?
A First of all, there was no change whatsoever. The structure and at the same time the personnel was kept up in the same way. All the members and high officials of that agency remained with one exception. Not one single man belonged to the Party, but there was a change in the Police Senator's Office. Of course, the new Police Senator was a member of the NSDAP. The Police Senator was at the same time in charge of legal matters, and his official title was "Senator for Internal Matters and Justice." For a short period officers of the SA and officers were transferred to our office as commissionars for special employee relations.
These men were nothing but Party members without a professional background. However, the Police Senator later removed them all at once, because they were not very proficient with their jobs.
Q With this activity in 1933, did any change occur then?
A No. From an organizational point of view, there was no change at all. Even in the field of competencies, it all remained the same. After a few weeks, I assume it was approximately in June or July 1933, the agency simply assigned a new title to this branch, and it was called the Gestapo, Secret State Police, in Bremen; that happened with all the other offices in the Reich; that was its only title. 1933?
A I was still in Subdivision I. In November 1933 the man in charge of the agency, Captain Kruse, was transferred back to the Schutzpelizei, the Protective Police. A political point of view might have been responsible for that transfer. At the same dates the Political Police became detached from the Police Senator's supervision that is from its independent position it had and for a short while it was subordinate to the Department of Criminal Police. It was under the supervision of SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Criminal Police, however, changed quite soon, a short while after the Political Police again became independent as it had been before. Krebs took charge of the Political Police, and was at the end directly subordinate to the Police Senator. Again it was detached from the Criminal Police. The Criminal Police received a man especially for that purpose who was in charge of that Division. Krebs however, was not very reliable, and in 1934 he was entirely removed from the police service, or the police force. From that moment on I was made in charge of that agency. you became chief of Political Police in Bremen. The purpose for which I had all these questions answered in detail was to give this Tribunal a clear impression of the professional background of this defendant.
Actually at this present moment it would be necessary to speak about the development of the Police since 1933, from 1933 on. However, I believe I can consider these facts as well established now. However, I would like to point out that a decree in 1934 contained tasks of the Gestapo Secret State Police. Witness, what happened now to political opponents of the NSDAP, after the 30 January 1933, in Bremen?
concentration camp was established in the emmigration halls of the Nord-Deutscher Lloyed, which was a transport company, a liner company. At that time upon instigation by the Party and in coordination with the police senator, through the protection police or Schutzpolizei this camp was established. The man in charge of the main district was placed in charge of that matter. The establishment and guarding of that camp, however, was entrusted to Party-affiliated organizations. of the so-called concentration camp, which was also known as the Missler halls? camp, with the institution, nor did my chief have anything to do with it, and how far he was consulted in the establishment of that camp I cannot say.
Q Did you know anything about the conditions in that camp, Witness?
A I couldn't tell you from my own knowledge anything about conditions in that camp, as I never visited the camp. However, through a Party member who was working as a confidence man for me ever since 1933 I found out that a few attacks took place in that camp.
Q Did you do anything about it thereupon, Witness? senator through normal channels. The men immediately demanded an investigation, and if my recollection is correct, he wanted to have that investigation carried out by the public prosecutor in Bremen. That investigation proved the facts which instigated my investigation. The guards were immediately relieved of their duties and the police officer was immediately transferred as a punishment.
Q Did the camp as such remain in existence, Witness?
A The camp was dissolved towards the end of 1933. After Captain Kruse had left I suggested to the police senator the dissolution of the Camp myself, and I also asked him to use Christmas as an amnesty date for all the prisoners and to have them released.
My proposal was complied with, as I explicitly stated that I would assume responsibility for it, namely, that the public security would not be endangered in any way by the release of chase prisoners. questions. Witness, what was the reason that you joined the NSDAP?
A Two reasons were decisive for my having joined the NSDAP. I was thrown into the maelstrom by exactly the same enthusiasm which the entire German people had at the time, because I also at the time was of the conviction that after the years and years of sufferings, of fights, brothers against brothers, the National Socialist movement would indeed be in a good position to unite the German people and to help them lead the way. I also had an opportunity to observe with what idealism men and women of all circles and of all social levels, believing in being saved from the misery at the time, immediately volunteered for that organization and believed in that organization. This working for the Fatherland and for the freedom of all the citizens of that country, already, prior to 1933, had gained my sympathy. In spice of that at the time I had certain misgivings to join the Party, as the large number of converts provoked that criticism on the part of all veteran members of the Party; they called them opportunists and similar names. On the other hand, however, I recognized the necessity to actually show one's attitude openly for this new movement, and particularly in the special position which I was, I had to get my way through in the Party as a Party member who was on the same level as all the others. However, I would like to expressly point out that my inner enthusiasm was the main moving force for my having joined the Party, and it was only the second position that it was necessity that forced me to join the Party.
Q When did you actually join the Party, Witness? March, 1933, and on the 1st of May, 1933, I was accepted as a member of the Party.
Q Did you at any time join the other SS organization? say in 1935, and I received a corresponding rank. At the time I was a captain and I was kept as a captain in the SS, that is to say as an SS-Nauptsturmfuehrer.
Q I shall come back to that, Witness, at a later date. In this connection, as far as this correspondence of rank was concerned, after the membership in the NSDAP had finally come through, did your attitude and the official position which you held, change in any way? personal attitude. On the contrary, I was of the conviction that my inner attitude was in tune with the aims of the Party, and particularly since publications of all sorts pointed cut and gave proof of the reconstruction, of the tremendous reconstruction which was being carried out, and proved both the power as well as the purity of the Party.
Q However, you had seen, Witness, hadn't you, that after the seizure of the power certain excesses took place?
A Yes, indeed. I had seen those excesses. However, I considered these to be certain results which cannot be avoided in a revolution. Those things simply could not be avoided in this revolution which took place, and also it must be considered that prior to 1933 innumerable members of the Party, that is to say NSDAP members, were being beaten up by political opponents right in the middle of the street and two SA men were shot to death in Bremen. what your attitude was about the excesses which took place in the socalled concentration camp in Bremen. Now, let me interpolate a question. Did you yourself have anything to do with the arrest or with the placing of the commitment to the camp of those persons, did you have anything to do yourself with that? issioners for Special Tasks which had been assigned to those duties by the Party, and how far my former chief participated in this is beyond my knowledge.
However, one thing should be noted, that he couldn't possibly have done anything about it anyway at that time. Those were nothing but transition instances, and as I have stated before, the two commissioners who had been assigned to those duties were later on released by Police Senator Lauer after somebody convined him of the fact that they were absolutely not fit for that job. on the 1st of February, 1934, you became a police captain, is that correct?
Q Were you, at the same time, put in charge of that agency? With that I mean the Gestapo, the Secret State Police, in Bremen?
A No. When my chief, Captain Kruse, in 1933 returned to the normal service of the Schutzpolizei, I deputized for him, and I was placed in charge for only a short period of time. something for certain people who had been arrested. You told us about the dissolution of this Bremen concentration camp, and the results which it had, that all the prisoners were released, and that you took the responsibility for these people, you vouched for them. Can you tell us now in connection with this, your way of handling matters, can you give us any further examples?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If your Honor please, the Prosecution fails to see the relevancy of this line of questioning. I do think the witness has explained fully what he was doing and why he was doing it. I don't think another line of questioning can be started now. He has informed the Tribunal quite well what his point of view in this connection was.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you intend to establish by continuing this line of questioning?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Your Honor, I would like to state that the defendant, who since 1923 was with the police as an expert, and who later on was transferred to the RSHA, to the Reich Security Main Office, was not a member of the Gestapo.
I would like to prove that he is in no way connected with any crimes that are being charged against this organization, or the Gestapo. That is the reason why I would like to prove a few preliminary things which occurred; how the defendant accepted it, how he helped political opponents, and also how he had them released from custody against rules and regulations. I consider it, therefore, important to deal with those points briefly in direct examination. This, for me, is one of the most Important points of evidence concerning the third count of the indictment. I would like to proceed here in a historical chronological manner, and when we come to 1941, I would like to speak about the assignment of the defendant and the Russian campaign.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If your Honor please, counsel for the defense is certainly aware of the fact that the defendant is charged under Count No. III only for having been a member of the criminal organization after 1939 and not between 1933 to 1939. Therefore, the Prosecution still fails to see the relevancy of this line of questioning.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Your Honor, the answers to various questions will expplain why the defendant, since the first of September 1939, was still a member of that organization, namely, as I will prove later on, which is the fact that he remained in the same position as before, and he also acted against the assumption that he had anything to do with crimes here.
THE PRESIDENT: I presume that it is your intention to attempt to show that the defendant, via a logical development of affairs, arrived at the situation in which he found himself in 1941, is that your purpose?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Yes, yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We will allow you to proceed a little bit further along that line, and then, Mr. Hochwald, you may renew your objection if you still think he is going too far.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. ULMER: (Attorney for the Defendant Six): Your Honor, may I ask that for tomorrow Saturday, the 18th, and Monday, the 20th, that Defendant Six be excused from attendance so that I can prepare with him his statement on the witness stand?
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Six will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow, Saturday, and Monday.
DR. ULMER: Thank you.
DR. STUEBINGER (For the Defendant Jost): Your Honor, as deputy for Dr. Alfred Schwarz, I wish to make an application that Defendant Jost be excused for tomorrow from participating so that his defense may be prepared. I also ask to consider that the prison personnel be informed about this so that the defendant will not be brought here by mistake as has happened repeatedly.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. I will instruct the Marshal to make note of the fact that the Defendant Jost is not to be brought to the court house tomorrow, and, for the purposes of the record, the Defendant Jost will be excused from attendance tomorrow. Naturally, it is understood that he will be ready on Monday to come into court.
DR. STUEBINGER: Your Honor, I shall inform Dr.Schwarz of this.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, the Prosecution has been informed -
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr. Horlick Hochwald.
MR. HORLICK Hochwald: If the Tribunal please, the Prosecution has been informed that after the case of the Defendant Schulz , the case of the Defendant Jost will be put on.
THE PRESIDENT: That is right.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: But unfortunately, we have no information as who is to take the stand and whose case is to be discussed after Jost's case. The Prosecution of course would like to know who will take the stand afterwards.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought that I made it clear, but now so that everyone will be informed, the order will be as follows: At the present time we are hearing the case of Schulz. Following Schulz, we will hear the case of Jost. Following Jost, we will hear the case of Six, and then proceed in accordance with the seating arrangement of the defendants. Rasch is being skipped for the present, until we learn something more about his physical condition.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
DR. DURCHHOLZ (Attorney for the Defendant Schulz): Your Honor, Defendant Schulz, while working with the police in Bremen and other cities had the opportunity to show his political attitude and his views as to the political occurrences, and to show his attitude toward his political opponents. It was my intention to let the witness describe a few cases here, however, having a few affidavits at my disposal, I shall submit these occurrences to the Tribunal in the form of affidavits and for that reason I limit myself to allowing the witness describe only a few incidents.
THE PRESIDENT: That is entirely agreeable to the Tribunal.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: The defendant repeatedly had the opportunity while working with the police to be in contact with Jews. Therefore, I consider it important that the defendant now may make some explanation on that point.